Hi mates long time no post, I was going to post this long ago but never came around to it.
It was about being able to prone at anytime it would have been very handy in many situations.
In all the spies versus merc games instead of having to stay put or glitch sneak past window cells etc.
I know it might be a little late now but thought id suggest it now rather than later as it would
not only add somthing new to gameplay but allow the spys to be less visible from a distance. If someone on the team is up to the task im sure they would be pleased with the results i know for mercs it might be a problem with when it comes to breaking their necks anamation.
But for the spies it's a must in my opinion i could add more to the post but lets see where this starts us off. I know it might be some extra work but if its a chance to make the mod that much better why not haven't you always wanted to crawl threw the grass or under railings a big part of stealth is staying low. :-*
bump
...bumping 2 hour old thread? i mean really...
Hey Q, definately long time no see. I actually really like this idea, and it would be cool to have some outa of the way vents that you have to prone through. Obvi you wouldn't try it with a merc behind you because it would be too slow. Or even like a small hole at the bottom of a wall into the next room kinda like DA.
NO to prone movement. spytraps and poison mines already have the problem that you can jump right over them in most spots, and now you want spies to be able to even prone under them??
prone vents would never be used by spies unless in an op position (which could be blocked really easily by mines and traps anyways) cause they're too slow.
I say no to being able to go prone when you want, but if there is a small vent it would force you to crawl through it, like DA. 1 thing I liked about it.
I hate those super small vents in CT/DA. They're stupid and just get you killed most of the time.
i don't wanna waste time slowly crouching through these gay vents, it would drive me nuts. tell me one good reason this would add to the gameplay...
Quote from: Gawain on March 06, 2008, 06:35:11 PM
i don't wanna waste time slowly crouching through these gay vents, it would drive me nuts. tell me one good reason this would add to the gameplay...
Why do you want to waste time slow-crouching then?
Gawain, you have to be patient most of the time in SvM. It would just add some variety. I don't know if it would add to gameplay, but look at what the small vents did on CT. You had to super slowly go through them. This could help for balance purposes like those vents did.
Yeah, and no one likes super slow vents.
Slow stealth isn't fun. Stealth that suits me is fun. Maybe you like being forced to move slow, but not me.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 06, 2008, 11:48:38 PM
Gawain, you have to be patient most of the time in SvM. It would just add some variety. I don't know if it would add to gameplay, but look at what the small vents did on CT. You had to super slowly go through them. This could help for balance purposes like those vents did.
Those vents are absolutely worthless. There isn't one instance in which those super-low vents actually help balance the game, and in some cases *cough*station*cough* they ruin the map completely.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 06, 2008, 11:51:57 PM
*cough*station*cough*
hahah, perfect example....but
these vents do their job on aqua. yea, I know its imbalanced map but It would be even worse if there were full sized vents.
doesn't need it really. if you don't want to be seen as you advance or move across a window, do it when the merc turns his back for a second or walks away - tactical advance. going prone in other situations would practically be useless. if the prone does make it in the game plz put 'merc stomp' in.
Why does everyone like to take bad examples from past games of SvM? It's not like those bad examples will be implemented again, like the super low vents on Station. Remember, it's taking the best aspects. You see one bad thing about it that can easily be changed or avoided and you go "OMFG HELL NO!!!!@#"
Solution? SIMPLE! Just don't design the friggin map like Station. The super low vents on Aqua, for example, do their job. Learn from Aqua, don't even think about Station because it won't/shouldn't be like it.
Quote from: neth on March 07, 2008, 12:05:50 AM
these vents do their job on aqua. yea, I know its imbalanced map but It would be even worse if there were full sized vents.
wtf oO
papaskull, "past games of svm" is the best reference we have. stop flaming people for basing their opinion on it.
there is a huge amount of stuff that we know how to fix, another huge amount of new ideas that have the potential to proove good and some ideas like ultra-low vents (or prone movement for that matter) that we already have very bad experience with (or can know that they suck certainly). so if you make or support such a suggestion, you gotta find some really good reasons...
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 02:28:07 PM
Quote from: neth on March 07, 2008, 12:05:50 AM
these vents do their job on aqua. yea, I know its imbalanced map but It would be even worse if there were full sized vents.
wtf oO
wtf wtf ?
Quote from: neth on March 07, 2008, 12:05:50 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 06, 2008, 11:51:57 PM
*cough*station*cough*
hahah, perfect example....but
these vents do their job on aqua. yea, I know its imbalanced map but It would be even worse if there were full sized vents.
Huh? The mercs have to actively shoot out these vents themselves in order to open them. I don't see how their size has anything to do with balance. As a matter of fact, it allows the mercs to place impassible poisons at these vents even if they do get opened. That's hardly "balanced."
Fact that theyre smaller, gives merc a chance to spot a spy while hes passing through. Yes, you can place poison mines but there is medkit in tech.
Yea, cuz Aqua is so merc sided that they need this ability ::). And it's not like the mercs have to shoot the vents out themselves or anything, thus becoming aware of the gap in coverage.
As for the health in tech: with the exception of the greek vent, you won't be able to reach a healthpack in time. Firstly, because the mercs will have to have a labotomy in order to take long enough for you to get out of the vent, and secondly because you just don't have the time thanks to the crawl.
Is that all gawain can think about is vents and who wouldn't want to crawl under laser mines that would be amazing but its not only for those two reasons its so you can hide in more places in any room yes most of the small vents in DA we're pointless but thats what the escape move was there for to get you out of most sticky situations.
In CT and DA if you crouch most skilled players will always be able to see your head this gets rid of that
when all your able to do is be upright it causes the spy to be more aggresive and run around like a aggro nut atleast this way mercs would have to search more corners of every room and it would be very good for outdoor maps depending on map etc.
And look hard in the grass and water if there is any
and there should be more ceiling vents like in movies where you see a S.W.A.T. officers crawling in to hit
the Terrorist leader insted of vents you can practically run and jump in i know this part is a little off topic but imagine crawling threw as bullets are coming past you. :o
But again its not my mod they can do as they wish its just an idea and i think most of us like realism
and that its somthing the SVM has been missing.
Its nice to be one of the family. :-*
k. Why are we still discussing Aqua? Aqua will not be in the game afaik, same with station. They both don't use the short vent as well as they could, especially not station. And I see no flame Gawain.
My argument is that the map makers can now use them to balance maps/entry points into the level. If the spy wants to slowly infiltrate an area without being seen, he should make the decision to take the low vent which is slower, or the higher vent which is taller. The lower vent puts you into an area which is unaccessible for mercs, while the larger vent puts you in an area that mercs can get to and trap it. The downside to taking the lower vent is that it would take more time, but you get to a more secure place. The downside to taking the taller vent is that it puts you in a more obvious place, but it takes a lot less time.
This ALL rests on the way the map makers design the map. It gives more choices to the spy.
papa, i don't wanna play a boring crouching simulation XD
a low vent to a secure place is total bullshit as there is no place for the merc to interact with the spy so the gameplay becomes boring. stealth is about outmaneuvring and distracting the merc, not about crouching in some stupid vent (which is already too slow for good stealth players in most situations so only noobs camp inside them).
Quote from: Spekkio on March 07, 2008, 04:11:16 PM
As for the health in tech: with the exception of the greek vent, you won't be able to reach a healthpack in time. Firstly, because the mercs will have to have a labotomy in order to take long enough for you to get out of the vent, and secondly because you just don't have the time thanks to the crawl.
I was talking about greek vent mostly cause tbh I dont remember more than one situation when I used any other small vent on that map. Greek vent is ok there, cause when merc gets into crytical situation and hes not in place when spy starts hacking greek, he often shoots vent and fires nade so he gets more time. Now imagine that after he shoots vent, spy can go into tech with normal speed. That would give him too big advantage. (Obviously theres this bug when spy can q-jump into vent, so he has to deal with only about 50% of the vent on slow mode - which makes totally no sense for me).
So I say, small vents are ok but when placed correctly.
Quotek. Why are we still discussing Aqua? Aqua will not be in the game afaik, same with station. They both don't use the short vent as well as they could, especially not station. And I see no flame Gawain.
Papa, NO map uses these vents well in a balancing manner. They are completely pointless, and at times, unbalance the map completely.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 07, 2008, 07:45:58 PM
Quotek. Why are we still discussing Aqua? Aqua will not be in the game afaik, same with station. They both don't use the short vent as well as they could, especially not station. And I see no flame Gawain.
Papa, NO map uses these vents well in a balancing manner. They are completely pointless, and at times, unbalance the map completely.
small vents suck. Those needed to not exist.
Personally, I think they can be useful for balancing and variations in the pace. But the current maps aren't really well designed for it.
I had imagined using prone like back-to-wall, except for floors to hide your profile better on high ledges and stuff.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 07, 2008, 07:45:58 PM
Quotek. Why are we still discussing Aqua? Aqua will not be in the game afaik, same with station. They both don't use the short vent as well as they could, especially not station. And I see no flame Gawain.
Papa, NO map uses these vents well in a balancing manner. They are completely pointless, and at times, unbalance the map completely.
Yes but you are still talking about small vents in regards to the current maps. Afaik, the CURRENT maps won't be in the game. ;) If the map makers are intelligent, the ones I know are, then they can be used in a fashion that could help balance areas. They would allow the spy to make a choice, take the safe slow route, or the fast dangerous route. (the one Gawain would choose because he always has no time obviously ;D jk gawain)
OR, you could make it so the spy crawls quickly like DA, but make those vents more exposed. Imagine crawling through a confined space underneath a grate in a hallway. Some of you may remember the cargo ship mission in CT SP, you wait for a couple guards to pass over you when you are crawling through a tight space underneath the grate on the floor. You are completely visible, but you move faster. Or imagine confining the vents underneath steel squat to a size where you could only crawl through them. Mercs can see inside the vents through the grates, but it makes it a quick shortcut across the map without having to expose yourself. The only downside is that it may take a bit longer to get through than your average vent, but not by much.
As for prone, it would become pretty useless. If a merc can see you crouched he can still see you prone most of the time, except for a few instances like Mr.Mic mentioned. I wonder if going prone would make you short enough to go underneath lasers. If so, I don't think it would be good for gameplay.
I really don't see any need to use these super-small vents for balance. They're inherintly imbalanced because being in them means that you 1) move extremely slowly and 2) can't use any of your equipment to defend yourself if a merc finds you. These things just turn into deathtraps when there's really no reason to have them. If you need to restrict the amount of time it takes a spy to get somewhere, just make the vent longer and snake it.
As for new maps being in PS: this is true, but if the core gameplay elements from PT/CT are present in PS, then the core elements of what makes up a good map are going to be very similar. Could you come up with a situation where a small vent/prone might add to gameplay? Probably, but not enough where it would be worth the effort to put it into the game.
Why wouldn't something that would add to the gameplay not be worth adding into the game spekkio? I provided a few examples. And you are right, spies would have to be smart about entering small vents. That's part of the reason why it would add to the gameplay. It gives more choices to spy: Take the slower safer route, or the faster dangerous route? The small vents could be both the dangerous fast route and the slower safer route, if you think about it.
I did like the fast slide in some newer SAM-game. Could be handy to run from room to room via short vents in the wall, at feet level. That emphasizes the speed and acrobatics of the Spy.
Papa, you're not reading what I'm saying or you're ignoring it: the vents DON'T add to gameplay. The hit/miss ratio right now is heavily in favor of those vents being useless. You could easily adjust the time it takes to get through a vent by lengthening it, rather than making some retarded spot that the spy can't do anything.
Vents are already dangerous places to be caught -- you can't stand up and run away like you can in the middle of a room, and there are usually a limited number of exits. Taking away the ability to defend yourself and making the spy move at 1/4 speed is overkill.
screw proning, just give spies a cardboard box device.
I'm reading them. You said I could probably come up with a reason where it would benefit the game. Then you went on to say that it wouldn't be worth it. Why wouldn't something that could add to the game be worth it? I think that anything that could add to the game in a positive way should be added to the game.
You can't lengthen vents all the time. Especially when the vent just leads from point A to point B, or just around a corner like the ones in Aqua.
Never did I say anything about 1/4 speed. In fact, I suggested that the low vents the spy could travel at almost the same speed as crouch walking. But they'd be more exposed and in danger because they can't defend themselves. That's the point. You have to be choose wisely which kind of vent to go through.
papa, what you don't get is that
a) most vents are poor map design and bad for the gameplay anyways
b) there is not one single spot in any ct map where extra low vents improve the gameplay
c) proning under traps/poison mines/passive defense lasers is very bad for the gameplay
d) if there's only a low obstacle between you and the merc, what makes you think that it would add to the gameplay if you can bypass (or hide there) without being seen simply by proning? there are plenty other more balanced possibilities like waiting for the right moment, using camo, etc.
patroulling is already not that easy to do well, so why make it even harder? once again, more possibilities =/= gameplay improvement.
Like MR.MIC said to keep a low ( Profile ) is what its basicly for enough talk of vents please that wasn't what it was about but...... dont get me wrong its good when vents come in all shapes and sizes ;)
Quote from: Tinweasele on March 07, 2008, 10:46:10 PM
screw proning, just give spies a cardboard box device.
They already do...its called camo. No real need for proning if you have camo.
Small vents do not need to be in this game. They served no purpose....NO PURPOSE in CT at all. They were, as Spekkio said, a death trap. You couldn't give me a possibility where a small vent was worth your while. The only ones benefiting from a small vent are the mercs because the spies get suckered into entering them.
Of course it is easy for a merc to kill a spy who is going through a small vent, but these vents should be very very fast connections between two rooms. If you need several minutes to go from one room to the other at the normal way but only a few seconds if you walk through the small vent, then it would be an advantage for the spy, too. I can not give you an example in SCCT, but PS could have maps, which support this idea.
It would encourage recon and stealth because you actually have to think of where the mercs are.
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 11:41:06 PM
papa, what you don't get is that
a) most vents are poor map design and bad for the gameplay anyways
b) there is not one single spot in any ct map where extra low vents improve the gameplay
c) proning under traps/poison mines/passive defense lasers is very bad for the gameplay
d) if there's only a low obstacle between you and the merc, what makes you think that it would add to the gameplay if you can bypass (or hide there) without being seen simply by proning? there are plenty other more balanced possibilities like waiting for the right moment, using camo, etc.
patroulling is already not that easy to do well, so why make it even harder? once again, more possibilities =/= gameplay improvement.
Lmao I never said I wanted to be able to go prone without the low vent. Not 1 time. And there is 1 very very very big thing you do not understand I will probably continue to not understand.
1) This isn't CT.
It could work in PS. You are right, there isn't 1 spot in CT where they benefit gameplay. That's CT. I'm not even talking about CT's low vent anymore, try reading my posts. I'm talking about DA's crawl vents. That COULD benefit gameplay. Especially if you could slide underneath them. Try flashing a merc then sliding under the low vent. If flashes are more reliable, which they probably will be, then low vents could be a nice means of a "getaway".
If you flash/smoke/chaff the merc and you quickly get into one of these then he can't check to see if you are there because it's too low to the ground. This could work Exceptionally well if the low vents are long and chain together and possibly lead into larger sized vents.
Prone/ crawling tends to disapear unfortunately, it's mainly slowing down the game flow of the games. If an obstacle like a laser mine would required that you prone to avoid it... I'm sure you could just jump over it.
Walking crouched and silently is already slow enough for a game and the games using a "prone" feature are usually about large maps and a lot of vegetation to hide yourself (more like a camouflage) there. I think that PS is about light and darkness and not to try to become invisible in the middle of the grass. :o
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 10, 2008, 02:53:35 AM
1) This isn't CT.
...
If flashes are more reliable, which they probably will be, then low vents could be a nice means of a "getaway".
dude, stop pointing out the obvious. ct is the best reference we have, and this project is certainly not about producing something entirely different so the map design will be quite similar.
your idea of escaping in vents is just stupid and shows that you have no idea what made scda a crappy svm game.
Low vents made ScDA a bad game? I don't think that you understood what made DA a bad game, it sure as hell wasn't low vents that ruined it.
the scda map design was bad because of way too many vents and other spy only zones (the map design however was only a result of the presence detector and no ss (and no camo, too)).
Quote from: Gawain on March 10, 2008, 04:16:25 PM
the scda map design was bad because of way too many vents and other spy only zones (the map design however was only a result of the presence detector and no ss (and no camo, too)).
Actually, the map design was pretty good given the presence detector.
In my perspective, DA was bad because it wasn't played with the same essence as CT or PT. So in other words, the bad point was in the Game Design.
agreed
For DA the maps were designed quite well for that kind of gameplay, but ultimately it was the gameplay that sucked, and not the maps for it. I also agree with Hyrage that the essence of it wasn't as good as previous games.
Your all talking like you've played project stealth before so where can i get my copy?
And we all know we all would have liked DA if there was more gadgets and if the merc
didnt feel like you were steering a boat. >:(
Or if there wasn't heaps and heaps of lag and a freaking Presence detector/no sound reticule and a lack of stealth altogether. THEN I may have liked it. It had some good potential, but it was garbage in the end.
I think it's alil beyond light and darkness here hyrage the spys have more lights on them than there is on some walls they always have and they always will. And yes CT crouch movement was slow but this is a new game and a new engine stop thinking of the past K thx bai. :-*
i dont think crawling is a bad idea i think its good for
*getting past laser grids (considering that chaffs will not go through walls anymore)
*hiding, for example, like in 'back to wall', but for when you are on top of a crate and the merc is on the below you on the floor, patroling around.
*for peeking down from a hole in a ceiling
i think it is a bad idea to use crawling only for dumbass vents because nobody would use those risky and tedious vents anyway.
10 month bump...
Holy
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ghchealth.com%2Fimages%2Foxypowder%2Fchocolate-ice-cream.jpg&hash=c324c22dc7854eec32f158bb1a35527d0c0752c3)
Being able to go prone and move is a No No for PS i think . Poison mine / Laser mine would become useless . Its not so hard to press f2 and find them ...... Laser / poison are mostly used to BLOCK a way , its not used to ambush people who are running away . So the ability to crawl under them , make those gadgets almost useless ( same goes to spy traps ) . Ps is a SAM ( stealth > ACTION < multiplayer ) , so long crawling in vent + slow moving and going to secure locations isn't quite Action orientated and makes the game boring.
Mic suggested a very good idea but nobody seemed to listen to him . It would be a nice idea to be able to go prone and NOT being able to move .(Like close to wall just close to ground ) It would help you hide on higher ground when the mercs have 45 degrees zoom on you . It would also hide in some other tricky situations probably.
I am for Mics idea but not for Papas.
Quote from: Snakebit. on January 15, 2009, 05:26:50 PM
Being able to go prone and move is a No No for PS i think . Poison mine / Laser mine would become useless . Its not so hard to press f2 and find them ...... Laser / poison are mostly used to BLOCK a way , its not used to ambush people who are running away . So the ability to crawl under them , make those gadgets almost useless ( same goes to spy traps ) . Ps is a SAM ( stealth > ACTION < multiplayer ) , so long crawling in vent + slow moving and going to secure locations isn't quite Action orientated and makes the game boring.
Mic suggested a very good idea but nobody seemed to listen to him . It would be a nice idea to be able to go prone and NOT being able to move .(Like close to wall just close to ground ) It would help you hide on higher ground when the mercs have 45 degrees zoom on you . It would also hide in some other tricky situations probably.
I am for Mics idea but not for Papas.
Hmm well on to this , Ill originally say that the idea was formulated by Qlemont and also I think the prone
crawling would work if it was done at a an accelerated rate (obviously not a slow pace like everyone is originally thinking in thier minds) and useful those douche bags who like to put mines that are un-chaffable in normal terms ie. some ppl putting spytraps and poision mines that stretch a football field long.
offtopic: Which makes me wonder is there gunna be a set range this time around cause personally i found that annoying .
We dont know. Depends on balance-testing I think.
AGENT:
"Hmm well on to this , Ill originally say that the idea was formulated by Qlemont and also I think the prone
crawling would work if it was done at a an accelerated rate (obviously not a slow pace like everyone is originally thinking in thier minds) and useful those douche bags who like to put mines that are un-chaffable in normal terms ie. some ppl putting spytraps and poision mines that stretch a football field long."
Exactly, thats what i was referring to also. when i said "supposing chaffs will not go through walls". i agree with that.
i disagree with what snakebit said about laser and poison mines being meant to scare spies off. look up the definition of the word mine.
yes i hope u guys do at least test it. imo this idea does not add much any extra lethality to spies so its good (only adds defense). another thing is the simple logical analogy of:
back to wall is to less observable spy (more hidden)
as
Prone is to less observable spy (no real reason not to put the friggen idea..)
back to wall is to peeking around corners
as
prone is to peeking around holes in ceilings ( to me this makes sense... honestly..)