Post Ideas for appearance of vision modes.

[Spekkio]

You are chasing a running spy through an open, well lit room. You have MT on to maintain a lock on your fleeing target. His partner is standing in the open. Just standing in the middle of the room. Completely invisible though he is totally in the open. You run right past him and he grabs you. Now, in alot of maps you could flick on your MT for only a few seconds and it would be long enough for this scenario to play out. You don't think that the Merc should have the chance to recognize even a faint ghost standing in the middle of an open room?

Firstly, how did he get to the middle of the room without you seeing him? I don't know about you, but if no merc is around I don't tend to just walk into the middle of a room and sit still on the off chance that he's going to pop out with EMF on and not see me.

Secondly, no, the merc shouldn't be able to easily see and identify the stationary spy. You have this thing called a sniper rifle and normal vision: use them.

[goodkebab]

I am still really against making spy 100% invisible against MT even if he is standing still in the middle of a brightly lit room.

Mt ghosting like EMF is reasonable,  along with the bonus that spy cannot possibly be seen in darker corners.

So I dont see how anyone can complain about that being out of balance when most people cannot detect the emf ghost anyways.

[Gawain]

with ghosting for some people good at spotting ghosts the only reason to use normal vision is the larger range...
additionally, emf ghosting quality depends on the system afaik

[B1nArY_001]

Firstly, how did he get to the middle of the room without you seeing him? I don't know about you, but if no merc is around I don't tend to just walk into the middle of a room and sit still on the off chance that he's going to pop out with EMF on and not see me.

I am not referring to something pre-planned but simply offering up a scenario where the spy should not be able to just simply stand there invisible in the open if he sees you coming with MT on.

Secondly, no, the merc shouldn't be able to easily see and identify the stationary spy. You have this thing called a sniper rifle and normal vision: use them.

Not everyone snipes or is going to have a good enough ping to make sniping reliable enough to just stop and start sniping rather than pursue. This vision mode should be suitable for any style of player not just a veteran player who has a 90% chance of sniping a fleeing spy. Depending on the environment and circumstances sniping is not always going to be the best option regardless of your skill level.

Anyhow, I've expressed my opinion and pointed out the potential flaws while doing my best to remain objective and take everything into consideration so as to be able to offer an opinion that takes both experienced and medium to lower skill level players into consideration. I have purposefully avoided creating a mock-up in order to maintain an un-biased opinion on what would be a beneficial change for players of all skill levels. I don't think Kebab's idea is necessarily the best, but I do believe with a few small tweaks it offers the best combination of allowing for stealth on the part of the spy without being retardedly easy for the spy to hide and ease of navigation for the merc along with a reasonable level of detection.

I'm not trying to bash anyone's ideas or say one is superior. They all have flaws and strong points so please, no one get all bent out of shape over it. Our goal is to provide the player with a balanced and fun gaming experience for players of all skill levels. To make a spy completely invisible no matter his surroundings as long as he is stationary might be ok for a veteran player. I could certainly be ok with it as I barely use MT to begin with but more than just the highly skilled players need to be considered here.

[Gawain]

this project is adressed to vets respectively experienced players.
specialization of vision modes is a good thing, because it rewards thinking and prohibits whoring. there is nothing to discuss about mic's general concept, it's simply the superior solution. maybe some of you don't want to use their brain too much in a game, but i think this is what makes scct a great game.

[B1nArY_001]

this project is adressed to vets respectively experienced players.
specialization of vision modes is a good thing, because it rewards thinking and prohibits whoring. there is nothing to discuss about mic's general concept, it's simply the superior solution. maybe some of you don't want to use their brain too much in a game, but i think this is what makes scct a great game.

Uhhh... lol... not to be an asshole man, but you are contradicting yourself. Making the spy invisible except when picked up by the grey box is an absolute no-brainer for spies. Granted it makes the Merc a little more careful but there are 2 teams playing and a balance between the two should be achieved. Anyhow, I'll chime back in when the discussion moves on to another vision mode. I've said all I can say. Oh, one more thing. This is not being created exclusively for vets. It is being created to provide an alternative to Splinter Cell without the bugs and with better balance. To create it with ONLY vets in mind would be utterly suicidal to the project's success as ANY game, much less one with such a small community will develop a stagnant pool of players if fresh blood is not introduced to the community. To do that, you cater to a broader audience. There will still of course be a gap between vets and lower level players but the least we can do is not make that gap even bigger by failing to achieve real balance and just nerfing things to balance it for vets.

[Gawain]

it's not a no-brainer for spies. they do the logical counter to mt, and the merc get's problems if he's mt whoring. if the merc is switching visions regularly, the stealthy spy in an open area gets some serious pressure to react, so it will add some tension and prohibits mt whoring for scanning rooms.

[InvisibleMan999]

I don't care what vision mode you're using, the spy should not be able to stand in the middle of a room and be invisible unless he is using camo.

You must really hate EMF then... that's like the complete opposite of what you want :P

Seriously though, from your other posts, you talk like a complete motion whore. If you want to see a spy standing in the middle of a brightly lit room w/o camo on, then how about just turning off MT for a second?

As far as vets versus newbies. Most newbies stick to normal vision anyway, so it won't even be a big deal. If anything it narrows the skill gap a little. I don't think I've seen many newbie MT whores anyway. 

[Spekkio]

I am not referring to something pre-planned but simply offering up a scenario where the spy should not be able to just simply stand there invisible in the open if he sees you coming with MT on.

The point is that your scenario is bullshit. For it to occur, the spy would have to go into the middle of the room and hang out there until you come walking by. Then he'd have to hope that in that timeframe you don't switch visions at all, and that you actually decide to chase his partner rather than shoot him from far away.

Realistically it just wouldn't happen, since it can happen with a merc using EMF at the moment and I've never been grabbed by someone just waiting for me in the middle of a room (I can't see EMF ghosts unless I'm sniping or actively looking for it).

If anything it narrows the skill gap a little. I don't think I've seen many newbie MT whores anyway.

I haven't seen anyone above mediocre that is an MT whore, either.

this project is adressed to vets respectively experienced players.

Someone doing a balance mod for another game made a statement which I strongly agree with: a well-balanced game is balanced at all levels of play, so long as you are attempting to play optimally. If you need to be ub3r-1337 pr0 to get around MT, then it's too strong.

additionally, emf ghosting quality depends on the system monitor calibration afaik

Fixed. Everyone with a basic CRT monitor (and good LCD monitors) can configure their monitors to detect EMF ghosts; as a matter of fact, Mr.Mic wrote a guide for doing just that. The rest is just a matter of having a good eye for it.

[Gawain]

the point was that invisibility is too strong for non pro players...

there are a lot mt whores playing way better than mediocre, maybe we got more "lamers" in europe XD

[B1nArY_001]

You must really hate EMF then... that's like the complete opposite of what you want :P

Actually, the slight ghosting seen in EMF is exactly what I'm saying should exist. But unlike with EMF, if the ambient occlusion and deeper shadows are present, that slight ghosting will not be as easy to see as it is in EMF. As a matter of fact, in the right areas it will be impossible to see.

[B1nArY_001]

The point is that your scenario is bullshit. For it to occur, the spy would have to go into the middle of the room and hang out there until you come walking by. Then he'd have to hope that in that timeframe you don't switch visions at all, and that you actually decide to chase his partner rather than shoot him from far away.

The scenario is not meant to realistic. It is merely to illustrate a situation that could take place in many different circumstances and I'm pretty certain whether or not you think I chose a bullshit scenario to illustrate my point, my point was made as you were able to correlate it with the possibility of that same scenario taking place while the merc is in EMF. All I am saying is that for the sake of balance that ghost should exist in MT but it should be more easily "absorbed" by the surroundings. You disagree. That's fine but don't get all bent out of shape and catty because I don't agree with you that a spy should be 100% invisible when stationary.

So about that EMF...? Keeping the slight ghosting? I think we should. Obviously! Bahah!  :D

Edit: I have managed to provide multiple reasons why I believe having the spy invisible is not beneficial to balance. The only real reasoning I've seen behind having the spy invisible is that it will force the merc to cycle vision modes which is true, but even a decent player knows that staying in one vision mode can be limiting and cycling through them is better. Rather than go in circles how about providing some sound reasoning on how being 100% invisible when stationary is beneficial to balance?

[Spekkio]

In order for you to support your point adequately, you need to come up with a plausible in-game scenario where your concern would be affected.

I can say that I think mercs will be underpowered because the spy will shoot him with a rocket launcher. However, the spy can't ever shoot a merc with a rocket launcher, so that argument is void. You get my drift?

A spy is never going to be waiting for a merc in the middle of a lit room, ever. If you think this is going to be an issue, then you need to come up with a plausible example on why it will be.

[B1nArY_001]

In order for you to support your point adequately, you need to come up with a plausible in-game scenario where your concern would be affected.

I can say that I think mercs will be underpowered because the spy will shoot him with a rocket launcher. However, the spy can't ever shoot a merc with a rocket launcher, so that argument is void. You get my drift?

A spy is never going to be waiting for a merc in the middle of a lit room, ever. If you think this is going to be an issue, then you need to come up with a plausible example on why it will be.

Ok. No problem - Museum, you are in the hall outside the elevator spawn, a spy runs through the double doors out towards cafe so you switch to MT so you can see which way he is going as he moves faster and will round the corner out of your LOS. He veers off towards the right dropping smoke imparing your vision so you stay in MT to make sure you can catch him if he doubles back around the corner to take the vent back into the merc spawn area. His partner has just arrived and is standing off to the side of the doors waiting to help. He has stopped for just a moment to asses the situation, he's not moving and you are in MT trying to track the other spy who is running. You exit the doors running right past him because he is completely invisible, he grabs you.

There are many locations where something of this nature could take place. I believe the merc should have small chance of spotting that second spy who is just standing there. Granted he would have to be paying attention but I think a vigilant player should be given that small chance to spot you if you have made no attempt to hide yourself.

[Spekkio]

If I'm picturing your scenario correctly, that would even work on normal vision.

If you're saying that the spy can hide on the other side of the door where he'd normally hide, then so what? Don't walk around in MT 100% of the time. Nevertheless, I'd imagine that a merc at point blank would be able to see the spy no matter what vision he's using.