The Assault Rifle Discussion

[Spekkio]

I thought spekkio had changed his position. He did talk a lot about how to change the guns instead of getting rid of them in his long post.

I still think a 1-weapon system would be best; however, I have given up trying to push for it since I am in the minority here.

If people want multiple weapons, then it's better to focus on how to make them work rather than kick and bitch that I want just 1 all-around weapon.

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I actually prefer shotty on maps that force close encounters with spies.  Of all weapons, the player must compromise the most when choosing shotty.

I do deny any advantage with lag.  ALL weapons suck on high ping,  and its because spies are not physically where  you see them even when you KNOW the bullets should hit,  they do not.

I dont know if this was explained,   but when spies get hit by bullets they go through an animation that prevents them from doing anything else.  This is the "uzi lag" everyone complains about.  

The shotgun has its place, but I still think it needs a re-work. For starters, the bullet spread NEVER hits the center of the crosshair. This is why the shotgun performs better in lag when someone has good aim -- by the time your bullets hit the spy, he has moved to the offset of your crosshair, thus resulting in him getting hit with the blast.

The second thing wrong with it is the bullet spread is completely random. One shot may have the bulk of the blast at the lower-left, while the next has it in the upper-right.

Third, a manifestation of point two is that you will randomly insta-gib a spy, and from quite a long range, too.

I propose that the spread of the shotgun become "normalized." That is, a certain % of the pellets will always hit around the center of the crosshair. The pellets toward the outer limits of the radius can be a little more random to mimic bullet spread of the other weapons. This would also allow mercs to shoot out snares/bullets, and hit spies off of objectives (albeit doing little to no damage). The shotgun should also never insta-gib a spy.

Additionally, Kebab, here's a question for you: if the tazer were actually useful, would you still be taking the shotgun, or would you take the tazer and another weapon that allows you more punch at longer range when you need it?

[Gawain]

i don't think we can tell yet that we are in the minority without a poll on sclamers. can you start one, spekkio? (i'd do it myself but i can't express myself that well in english and you are way more accepted)

call me arrogant, but i also think we shouldn't count the votes of newbs for such an important decision.

[InvisibleMan999]

folks, listen to spekkio. the pt rifle was perfect, a one weapon system actually offers more depth.

More balance maybe, but not more depth. Depth is all about different options.

How do you counter the PT rifle or any weapon that's good at any range?

Short answer: you don't.

There's really no tactical depth there. At all.

[Spekkio]

Sure you can counter it because the spy's gadgets are designed around being able to do so.

Ubi increased the weaponry in CT, but they never bothered to fully integrate their mechanics with the ways in which spies will use their equipment. Only the rifle offers that counter mechanic, and therefore depth.

As far as more weapon choices adding depth: it really doesn't. When you're actually playing the game, you only have 1 weapon.

[Gawain]

you could argue that the combination of different weapons adds depth, but that's it. i can't get why people think snap-headshots are a problem or that you can't play well with rifle without uba-sniping skills. if we want to c**** the gameplay of ct than why don't we go for a one weapon system as most good players take rifle 90% of the time anyways? just implement a tazer that's worth a slot and slightely increase the rifle's automatic capabilities and we have the perfect weapon for this game.

[Farley4Fan]

Mmmkay, I suggested the PT ROF and I didn't see anyone really like the sound of that.

Okay, let's talk about burst.  We haven't really decided on that yet as a community.  In my opinion, there are two things you could do with this.  Make the bullets a little more accurate than automatic, or a little higher damage than automatic.  Or, just remove it altogether.  Because right now, there's no point to it.

What do you think?

[InvisibleMan999]

Sure you can counter it because the spy's gadgets are designed around being able to do so.

Ubi increased the weaponry in CT, but they never bothered to fully integrate their mechanics with the ways in which spies will use their equipment. Only the rifle offers that counter mechanic, and therefore depth.

What is the big counter scheme? The fact that flashbangs take you out of snipe mode? I mean, that's all I really hear.

Chaff works to prevent sniping, but it's kind of pointless because you've got to get the merc inside the chaff radius. So that means you've basically go to SS him first and then fire a chaff, but by that time you might as well just run instead of using the chaff.

The flash thing is basically just a counter for aggro spies, because aggroers are about the only ones who take flash. Everyone else is pretty much going smoke/chaff. Because smoke is all around useful and chaff is necessary if you want to bypass various well placed mines and defenses.

As far as more weapon choices adding depth: it really doesn't. When you're actually playing the game, you only have 1 weapon.

The depth added is the spy's reaction to said weapons. You see a merc with a shotgun, you want to stay away, you see a merc with a rifle, you probably want to aggro him and have to remember to be on your guard against sniping.

The added depth is dealing with each weapon's capabilities and adapting.

Further, it reduces your ability to fine tune against a team's strengths. For instance, against an aggro team, it can help you to take shotgun or uzi. Against a stealthy spy, you probably want the rifle. It also creates depth as far as where to position yourself. A team of uzi mercs is going to have a vastly different positioning than a team of sniper mercs. There are somethings you just can't do with the uzi that you can do with a rifle.

Having 1 weapon that does it all actually reduces the depth of the game. It's like Double Agent. Every merc had frags, drones and a rifle. So you didn't need to use varied tactics against different mercs, because every merc played using the same mechanics. Now I realize that in DA, sniping was absolutely essential for every merc to have, because the spies generally hacked things from some obscure spot. In CT, that's just not true, and I don't think the game benefits by having every merc be a sniper all the time.

You actually gain more depth by having mercs with varied abilities.

That's the main reason I suggest actually making scope a gadget under a 1 weapon system. That way, some mercs snipe and some don't, and that actually adds more depth to your tactics.

More balanced choices always means more depth. I mean, it's just like comparing PT to CT. PT had one weapon, effectively automatic gadgets (the only real choice was spybullet versus snares). CT spread the weapons out to multiple guns and made the gadgets more balanced, flash became worth taking, heartbeat was added, as well as merc gadgets that people cared about beyond mines, taser, frags, traps. A few things were unnecessary, like nerfing the tazer. But for the most part, CT improved the depth of the game.

Hopefully PS will continue with the next step forward, instead of a step back like Double Agent.

[BurningDeath]

you could argue that the combination of different weapons adds depth, but that's it. i can't get why people think snap-headshots are a problem or that you can't play well with rifle without uba-sniping skills. if we want to c**** the gameplay of ct than why don't we go for a one weapon system as most good players take rifle 90% of the time anyways? just implement a tazer that's worth a slot and slightely increase the rifle's automatic capabilities and we have the perfect weapon for this game.

Now that I think about it .. you're right - a one weapon system would be the best solution. Noone ever complained about the PT rifle in the first place, and snap-shots are not that much of a problem, because there certainly won't be too much Mr.Mics.

[Spekkio]

The flash thing is basically just a counter for aggro spies, because aggroers are about the only ones who take flash. Everyone else is pretty much going smoke/chaff.

Wtf are you talking about? Flashbangs are plenty useful in a stealth capacity for getting away when you get caught, and many times moreso than smoke grenades.

[Farley4Fan]

Yeah, I agree with Spekkio.  I am a stealth player, most of the time, and I use flashbangs/chaff every time I go out.  Sometimes Smokes replace them but most of the time, I'd rather have flash.  Mainly for getting away and escaping.

[InvisibleMan999]

The flash thing is basically just a counter for aggro spies, because aggroers are about the only ones who take flash. Everyone else is pretty much going smoke/chaff.

Wtf are you talking about? Flashbangs are plenty useful in a stealth capacity for getting away when you get caught, and many times moreso than smoke grenades.

Honestly I never used flash. About the only way they're useful are when you shock the merc first to take him out of MT, and if you're going through that much trouble, you might as well go the extra mile and triple nade him. Against an MT whore, flash is about useless. I pretty much laugh when most of the people try to flash me to cover their escape, becuase I'm in MT and it does nothing.

Smokes are nice because they're fire and forget for the most part. Throw down a smoke then run, and it slows the merc down. My goal for evading the merc is to slow him down a bit and avoid getting in a twitch duel. For flashes to really work well, you're forced to get into a twitch duel. Otherwise MT just nullifies whatever your flashes do.

[Spekkio]

Don't assume something isn't useful because you elect not to use it. There are a lot of players on PC who use flashbangs, and not all of them do so in a purely aggro capacity. They are just as versatile as smoke grenades.

What is the big counter scheme? The fact that flashbangs take you out of snipe mode? I mean, that's all I really hear.

Then you're just choosing to ignore things so that you can continue in your nerf sniping crusade.

Smoke grenades counter sniping because a merc isn't going to want to waste his mask sitting in a smoke cloud. Chaff counters sniping because you can't go into it while in the chaff radius. Flashbangs counter sniping because they take him out of sniper mode no matter what, and I even proposed that the effect needs to be more pronounced when re-sniping. Headshots disable the ability to snipe entirely, but they don't stop the merc from firing their other weaponry just as quickly. Aggro counters snipers because the full-auto of the rifle is sub-par.

Whether you would prefer to shock --> smoke/chaff or run really depends on the merc's FOV if you run away without disabling him first.

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that you can pre-plan for a sniper to come around the corner. If you know a merc is going to pop around and snipe from a particular position, you can throw a chaff there before hacking. Alternatively, you can use spy bullets to escape before he even gets there.

Seriously, there are plenty of counters to the rifle's scope function, and your posts are nothing but a whine against something that you alone have difficulty countering. No one else here is agreeing with you in regards to the scope being this omgwtf imba function that keeps nuking spies from anywhere on the map.

In terms of depth, there are no direct counters to the other weapons, in that there is no effective way to stop them from using a part of of their functionality.

[Farley4Fan]

Agreed.  Flashbangs are great for covering your escape, smokes just aren't.  They can easily flip on gas mask and continue to chase me.  Merc's can't do anything about flashes unless they happen to turn on MT right before it hits.  Usually, flashes are thrown unexpectedly.  Meaning you are chasing a spy, and he flashes you before you even know it.  Then, if the flash hit him directly, you are free to escape and be unseen while doing it. 

You can use it to cover your movement.  For example, you flash the merc and move from cover to cover.  He doesn't know where you are at.  You could flash him and move anywhere, and he wouldn't know if you moved quickly - quickly meaning you moved within the time it takes for the flash effect to wear off.

[Gawain]

amen to everything spekkio posted.

papaskull, once again you talk bs. a good merc will be in mt (or emf+laser) when he chases you, not in normal vision. in most escape situations, SS the merc is the best choice anyways.

[Farley4Fan]

 Why would a merc flip on laser or EMF?  If the merc can already see the spy, clear as fucking day, then why would he need to turn on a vision.  That's fucking stupid, you talk bs.

SS the merc and flashing him is the best choice.