Back in time to get the facts. Pt .Phosphorus Etc.. Merc/Spy

[Hyrage]

These primary properties are what we look at when deciding what gadgets to include, which is the stronger mine? Laser.

Then why is laser the least used mine in the game?

Maybe you didn't see the laser mines  ::) (joking)

[Westfall]

frvge: i'm still not convinced that poison mines add to the gameplay. i have several reasons:

-the trigger mechanism (and the range) works exactly like spy traps

A spy's trigger mechanism for a nade works the same.

-if poison mines get more deadly we have no idea what it will do to the gameplay because they aren't exactly deadly in ct

Well, if your mate can't heal you because only heal boxes work then it will up the deadliness of the poison mine. If the times shortens to death and other affects occur while poisoned, it will balance itself out as being useful and not as much of a joke.

-poison mines are only strong in places you can't jump over (they are really easy to see flipping on tv every once in a while); in that places, they are op because of the big range (same problem with traps)

Poison mines are strong in places you don't expect them to be, in places you can't jump over (as stated), and something far from a health box. Their trip laser's length makes the weakened poison different and more useful/different than that of a laser mine.

-mines already belong to the strong gadget category because they kill, no need to give the merc 3 choices instead of 2 (just remember how well mines worked in pt (except no number limit))

I don't see how another mine that is actually useful in ruining MATCHES should be removed because they were fucked up in CT. The idea was just fine. Why not continue towards the DA route and nix them altogether....ah, no. Limit should remain and poison mines should stay. People use different things and plant better mines then others. Consider different players here as opposed to the fantastical myth world of "WHAT I WANT".

it would be nice if you could actually consider these points and not just state something naive like <it has it's uses and gives the player more choice so it's good for the gameplay>

Poison mines are more useful to different players. Even if they are a different  type of "PRON". I think you need to actually consider the other team taking poison mines and you diverting them. More choices can make opposition weak. Bad placement can make opposition weak. Then again, I could probably catch you with some poisons and really frustrate/manipulate your game play because it messes with your head.

Poison mines should stay because they are actually useful (if used appropriately), not just another option.

[Farley4Fan]

I completely disagree with that point. Regardless, sum up those facts and the laser comes out on top, have a difference of opinion? Fine but at the present I see the advantages being with the laser mine, but PLEASE stop being pedantic (not just you, anyone who's replying to this thread in general) because if you read what I say, I eventually came to the conclusion the Poision Mine is a good addition, jesus christ :P.

You can't disagree with that.  It's a fact.  From my experience, I hardly ever see laser mines compared to proxies/poisons.  I'm sure most people here would say the same.  I'm sure most people who have played SvM for more than a few months would say the same. That means that most people use laser mines less frequently.  The only areas that laser mines will even work in is close quarter areas or at narrow chokepoints.  And even then, proxies will do that job just fine.  For any long range mine using the poison mine is the only option.  If anything, the laser mine is a worse addition than the poison, but not by a whole lot.  They all do their own job fine, even if a few of them overlap the other's uses.

[VaNilla]

"I eventually came to the conclusion the Poision Mine is a good addition."

Remember? I don't want to talk about the shortcomings of either mine. But I've probably played longer than you, very long breaks from CT or not I think I have. In my experience I've seen Laser Mines used many times and most times to more avail than a Poison Mine.

Edit - Just found this in another topic.

"I've only brought them every loadout since the dawning of PT."

Woops. If you've been playing non-stop since then, then maybe not :P. But in my experience I've seen many Laser Mines used and although I do play with good players at times, I barely see Poison Mines being as efffective, the only times I really do are over long distances but that's pretty irrelevant because this is going to be a new game and the distance it projects a laser to may be different. Not saying theres anything wrong with taking a Poison Mine but I personally find Laser Mines more useful and I haven't seen Poison Mines do as much damage.

[Gawain]

omg stop the monster posts with almost no real substance. nothing but blablablabla that takes minutes to read  ::)
@papa: a presence detector close to an objective is bullshit. you should be able go figure out why on your own. you're right that laser mines are generally used rarely, but that is because of the delay.

westfall: i'm not against variety in gameplay styles, but i'm for variety in the right places: make laser mines viable by removing the delay, and you have your enhanced variety and choices. boost amount of spytraps and allow vertical placement, and you have more variety. replace flares with ph. nades, and you have your variety. those are all examples that i think would add to the gameplay because there is no gadget overlapping and no unneeded complexity. it's really ridiculous that you are worried about too few gameplay choices when there will be like 10 times more even with some minor fixes like removing the laser mine delay. besides, your post can be summed up by this naive statement: poison mines are useful. so what? i'm sure a rocket launcher or x-ray vision would be useful, too. you did in no way counter any of my points.

[VaNilla]

Actually he's very right indeed that presence detectors are a very useful device to deter spies from objectives and other key points in a map, and I'm not gonna stop those 'Monster Posts' because while it may take you a long time to read, it saves me time by saying what I want to say in one post rather than spreading it out over a series of posts/topics with needless arguments in between.

Complaining about my 'Monster Posts' says more about you than it does about me, even with your small font you manage to write a load of bullshit without even explaining your opinion.

By the way, "omg stop the monster posts with almost no real substance" ... Substance means "That which has mass and occupies space". My posts have alot less mass than your bullshit I can tell you that :P.

[Xris]

Side note: lasers mines are under used in CT because of chaff through walls.

[Gawain]

i'm not writing bullshit, stop flaming me. you could have summarized and structured your thoughts way better instead of spamming bullshit about my english grammar / word choice / whatever.
i didn't think that you are that retarded, but obviously i really gotta explain why presence detectors suck placed next to objectives: they give you about 1s more reaction time before the spy gives away his position anyways by hacking the objective.

[Hyrage]

Side note: lasers mines are under used in CT because of chaff through walls.

So true <<<

[VaNilla]

I already explained your last point about presence detectors anyway but in practice, until we get into the game and people build tactics around, it that is not going to be the case. Choice is very, very important, I'm not flaming you atall by saying your writing bullshit I'm just stating my frustration. Your the one complaining about my long posts, yet your asking me to summarize and structure what I've already said in earlier posts, creating something you hate over again. I hate contradiction.

I didn't spam, I didn't bullshit, and I didn't talk about your grammar nor your 'whatever' but when your talking about words I have used and them providing no substance, can't another guy talk about your word choice contradicting what you have said in the first place? What I said clearly did provide substance and if your 'ragging' on my word choice to come to your conclusion, I have the right to do exactly the same to come to mine. Or is it a privelage only you are allowed to take advantage of? Retardation doesn't have anything to do with opinion by the way. Implying I have a hint of retardation isn't going to bring you anywhere but down.

Xris is right I believe aswell about his point of chaffs through walls as a reason laser mines are under used but the same can apply to poison mines, or any mine really for the matter, so yeah :P.

[Gawain]

chaff going through walls makes (non-overlapping) proxies behind corners and laser mines quite useless in a lot of places, but it's not the reason why people choose proxies over laser mines: you hardly get a kill with a laser mine (exception: placed behind doors and in combinations or 2 or 3 mines) because of the stupid delay.

[Farley4Fan]

PD's have their weaknesses, but they have their strong points. 

Strong points:
1) They are tiny.
2) Emit no visible laser.
3) Can be put on things that are already triggered by heat vision making them even less visible.
4) You don't have to set it up so that the laser is put into an effective place.
5) They detect things in an area rather than a tiny line.
6)  NEXT TO Impossible to remove without exposing your position or making noise. (one of the best things about this gadget.)

Weak Points:
1) Small range.
2) Don't permanently track the spy.
3) Are only useful in less visible areas and areas that are key choke points.
4) Usually things like this are expected to be around choke points, so get chaffed because of that.  Even if the spy doesn't know it's there.  BUT, if the spy checks the area w/ thermal, doesn't see it because of good placement, the spy could run right into it and blow his position instantly.

Those all depend on where they are used.  Placement is key to these gadgets, same with laser spy traps. 

[Gawain]

it's quite possible to remove presence detectors stealthy, but most people simply don't expect them or know how they work (lack of tutorial again).

[Westfall]

westfall: i'm not against variety in gameplay styles, but i'm for variety in the right places: make laser mines viable by removing the delay, and you have your enhanced variety and choices. boost amount of spytraps and allow vertical placement, and you have more variety. replace flares with ph. nades, and you have your variety. those are all examples that i think would add to the gameplay because there is no gadget overlapping and no unneeded complexity. it's really ridiculous that you are worried about too few gameplay choices when there will be like 10 times more even with some minor fixes like removing the laser mine delay. besides, your post can be summed up by this naive statement: poison mines are useful. so what? i'm sure a rocket launcher or x-ray vision would be useful, too. you did in no way counter any of my points.

So, from all that you've posted and what I posted (which was perfectly legit and definitely countered what you've posted), I can safely make the assumption that you are scared of poison mines. Your last statement was about "don't tell me its good for game play" and what not...yet thats all you have with your other statements. The variety is always a good point. Poison mines do just that, add more variety. Saying that poison mine being useful is a naive statement only shows your lack of "I wonder what other players would use." Again, the game can't appease the needs of everyone, but getting rid of poison mines without even having good points to counter really doesn't help the cause. Either get something convincing or quit trying to use the same not good points as to why the poison should be removed.

[Farley4Fan]

1)  Rambo, the only way I've successfully removed a PD without setting off my positon is removing them from behind when they are on a rail.  All other attempts for me prove unsuccessful no matter which way I go, how slow I go, or what I use.  On the other hand, it's quite easy to remove it and make a noise at the same time - If you find it before it finds you that is. 

I'm not saying this gadget is Godly, in fact, far from it.  But it makes it NEXT to impossible, as I said before, to remove them without giving away your position.  The reason more people choose to use the other form of the spy trap is because it's more attractive to get a blip that tracks the spy for a long period of time that you can easily track down (maybe not kill always but you get my point).   With a PD someone can easily escape after they are detected by it.  For me, I choose the the laser detector for the same reason in most cases.  On occasion I will use the PD, but that's pretty rare.

2) Rambo, you go from calling poison mines utterly useless to comparing them to rocket launchers.  I probably just took that out of context but I see that you must realize they have their uses.  Therefore I don't see why they should be removed as a useful gadget in the game.

3) I just thought I'd bring up the fact that they work like a laser spy trap again.  They can work like a spy trap but at times be a bit more potent and useful.  Just remember that you can have your mines, have something that works almost as well as a spy trap all at the same time, and only take up 1 slot.  Of course, this all depends on how/where it was placed.  That means that it's useless for you, but useful for others because they know where/how to place them.  I don't want to explain this all to you because it already has been.  Look back a few pages and maybe discover something you didn't before.

So far plenty people want the poison mine to stay in the game, look at westfall's poll.  I feel like it deserves a boost because some people like Rambo can't find a use for it.  But it will only make it more useful for the people who already like it, and there's nothing wrong with that.