Ammo for Spies?

[InvisibleMan999]

the best solution for stealthy spies are building stealthy maps.  A lot of people want to play stealth when they can.  Factory and Orph are great examples where stealth spies own.

Well part of it, yes. Stealth needs to be viable and the map needs to allow that. You can't for instance have crap maps like warehouse where your only option is to aggro.

Mercs need to be forced to patrol, giving stealth spies a chance to sneak past.

On the other hand though bigger maps probably means you can weaken aggro somewhat, to further reinforce the stealthy style you're trying to promote. Because remember that aggro also improves a bit on big maps too, because it's much easier to isolate a single merc and aggro him to death. Doing that on aquarius isn't as big a deal because the other merc has about a 2-5 second response time if properly placed, so backup is close by. On factory it may well take you 5-10 seconds to get to help your partner. So if you intend on having big maps you probably should weaken aggro a bit. At the very least the merc should be able to get into a corner and establish a hold out position.

[RNS]

Hi, I'm new here...

In my opinion ammo for spies will probably cause that:

• The game become more like Double Agent's SvsS from PS2 that clone of improved Chaos Theory Versus.
• Spy can become hunter, but we all know that Spy should be rather hunted...

If you ever played SvS you know what I mean - even in Team Hacks and other it looks like DM...

[goodkebab]

Again...its all in the map design.  Choke points force spies to have confrontation.  Both Orph and Factory have quick escape routes and safe routes for spies to get to objectives, provided you are skilled enough in stealth.

DA really enforced this in their map design.  You do not need to make big maps and slow mercs, it is enough to have multiple routes to objectives and good escape routes.  To make maps feel big but allow mercs quick access through the map,  just make them more vertical  (elevators and jumping over railing)

[frvge]

Which is why Hospital and Clubhouse and Aquarius are so popular:
multiple stories with elevators or lot of connecting paths (via Tech for Mercs)

[Gawain]

aqua is the worst case scenario; don't go over the top with quick access for the mercs...
club is very boring imo, but probably because i've played it too much.

hospital is teh pwnage bitches  ;D
on factory, camnet is a bit too strong, but nevertheless it's my favorite map besides orph  8)
every map designer should try to learn from this ones  ;)
but plz fewer spy-only zones like vents, and more shadows to hide. thx ;P

[InvisibleMan999]

aqua is the worst case scenario; don't go over the top with quick access for the mercs...

Keep in mind that the slower mercs take to get somewhere, the weaker aggro needs to be. Otherwise the game just turns into a double team neck snap + hack situation.

[Gawain]

Do you wanna tell me that you can play stealth on Aqua ??? rofllol
It's merc map number 2 directly after Warehouse ::)

[LiVe.To.Di3]

yes i can play stealth on aqua. all you need is greek hacked and the stealth begins

[InvisibleMan999]

yes i can play stealth on aqua. all you need is greek hacked and the stealth begins

yeah, that's why one of the staple merc tactics on Aqua is having one guy perpetually camp greek. He can also cover pirates from the bridge too, leaving the other guy to guard tech.

You kind of just give up the office disk, because that one doesn't even matter much.

[Spekkio]

Greek is the worst objective to get first because it allows the mercs to only cover one side of an already small map. Good luck getting tank disk after that.

The best objectives to hit first:
1. Tank disk
2. Pirates
3. Office Disk
4. Tech Room (get this first and you lose your ability to pull the mercs away from greek/pirate)
5. Greek Room

The order in which you hit objectives matters much more in Aqua than most other maps.

[Gawain]

I fully agree with spekkio. If you really wanna win on Aqua, you really have to consider that.
On the other hand going tech room first has it's advantages, too. The mercs will usually stop covering it and you get acces to the central room of the map which leads everywhere.

[InvisibleMan999]

Greek is the worst objective to get first because it allows the mercs to only cover one side of an already small map. Good luck getting tank disk after that.

The best objectives to hit first:
1. Tank disk
2. Pirates
3. Office Disk
4. Tech Room (get this first and you lose your ability to pull the mercs away from greek/pirate)
5. Greek Room

The order in which you hit objectives matters much more in Aqua than most other maps.

I would disagree. Pirates is probably the easiest objective to take first, but unfortunately it also makes the mercs lives a bit easier since it's one less thing for them to defend and after hitting pirates it's difficult to actually go anywhere else other than greek, unless you egress back to the start point. Also a sniper from greek can easily head shot you from the bridge as you start to hack pirates, so if they expect you're going there, you're in trouble. Alternately, the guy in Tech can go up above and snipe from the railings in Pirate.

Getting the tank disk may sound like a great idea, but if the mercs have someone guarding tech and greek early, it's all but impossible. Basically the only way you're getting that is pure aggro.

Without greek, your progress through the map is painfully slow and it's rather easy for the mercs to figure out where you're going to strike from next, unless you waste a lot of time in misdirection. If your initial assault fails, you don't have any means to change targets as you would if the tech room was accessible.

[Gawain]

avoiding headshots in pirates should be avoidable if you have proper teamplay (on aqua you should stay together with your mate most of the time), and if the mercs leave pirates, you can do coop to tech room from there so you are not isolated. goind for the tank disc only works with real good diversion, but often this option is underestimated i guess. fact is, if one merc is camping in greek/bridge and the other one in tech, you can't win aqua without knocking them out...

[Valserp]

Greek is the worst objective to get first because it allows the mercs to only cover one side of an already small map. Good luck getting tank disk after that.

The best objectives to hit first:
1. Tank disk
2. Pirates
3. Office Disk
4. Tech Room (get this first and you lose your ability to pull the mercs away from greek/pirate)
5. Greek Room

The order in which you hit objectives matters much more in Aqua than most other maps.

I would disagree. Pirates is probably the easiest objective to take first

He didn't say which objective is easiest, he said which objective should best be taken first in order to make the game winnable.

[LiVe.To.Di3]

well i am sorry but me and my mate NEVER lose when we have greek. we dont care if we are versing noobs or pros we will win if we get greek first. maybe you guys cannot play like that but we can. 8)