[Official] Spy discussion

[Swiftling]

The whole conversation i made with the spies talking where to place the ammo crate on the map, was to show that there is no logic in choosing different from the IP location for the ammo crate. If 2/3 spies choose an insertion point and carry the ammo crate with them, they will prefer to put it somewhere at the IP.

But then again, if we look at the things from other angle, they may have been undercover from quite some time and have the opportunity to place the crate somewhere where they want. In that case there will be only 2 possible options: place the crate somewhere on the map so it is on equal time from any objective, and at the IP. If they place the crate somewhere on the map, the mercs will be able to count the gadgets you use and then when some of the spies wants to restock, they will be able to easily guard the spy crate. So again the only logical place to put the crate in, is the IP, which is unreachable by the mercs. You can make it on a random spot somewhere IN the IP, but  placing an ammo crate where it can be guarded will be quite unbalanced.

[LennardF1989]

I see. BTW, with the random IP's I didn't meant you can really choose one as with Battlefield, but more one thats randomly chosen by the game on startup.

Say there are 3 IP's made by the mapper. When the level is loaded, the game randomly choses one of those 3 and all spies will always spawn there for as long as the round lasts.

[Swiftling]

Yeah i got your point from the previous posts. Its good idea. The best of the "mods" (because it is almost sure it will be a GAME) is that the creators talk to the players. I mean if Ubi talked to us like you, the story would be very different. I think PS will be very good game. You should consider actually selling it for like 4-6$, because you really do make some efforts. You must get something for these efforts you make after all. Also will there be Xbox 360 version of the PS or it'll be PC/PS3 only? (sorry for the question in spy discussion)

[LennardF1989]

No, don't excuse yourself, that's where these topics are for, they raise questions :)

UT3 didn't run on Linux/Mac OS X natively (only through emulators like Wine HQ). Although it was possible to make mods work on a PS3, Microsoft was still a bitch for allowing mods on their console and I wouldn't count on that changing soon (same goes for a Linux client...).

[Wh1tE_Dw4rF]

The whole conversation i made with the spies talking where to place the ammo crate on the map, was to show that there is no logic in choosing different from the IP location for the ammo crate. If 2/3 spies choose an insertion point and carry the ammo crate with them, they will prefer to put it somewhere at the IP.

But then again, if we look at the things from other angle, they may have been undercover from quite some time and have the opportunity to place the crate somewhere where they want. In that case there will be only 2 possible options: place the crate somewhere on the map so it is on equal time from any objective, and at the IP. If they place the crate somewhere on the map, the mercs will be able to count the gadgets you use and then when some of the spies wants to restock, they will be able to easily guard the spy crate. So again the only logical place to put the crate in, is the IP, which is unreachable by the mercs. You can make it on a random spot somewhere IN the IP, but  placing an ammo crate where it can be guarded will be quite unbalanced.

Because Mercs can crawl up in every ventilation shaft. /sarcasm

Placing stuff random on start up is a great addition. Screw tactics to be honest. Because that will monotome the hell out of it with no replay value. The game should be balanced around handling a situation correctly instead, where crucial dicision are key.

The dev's should avoid a situation like this: Plant mines in spot A, B and C. Guard D every map rotation.


On a side note, disabling being able to plant mines within 3 meter of an objective. Blowing up an objective is OK while letting it hack is bad? Riiiight.

[Swiftling]

Because Mercs can crawl up in every ventilation shaft. /sarcasm

Well if you can place a big ammo crate in a ventilation shaft, i agree with you. I know cameras and gadgets are small but small + small + small = big. And the crate must supply 2/3 spies, so the ammo it holds enlarge the crate too. And the crate becomes big.

Because ammo crates can be placed in shafts. /sarcasm

Also, if you want random stuff, buy UT3 (i am not against randomness or UT3 [i have the game bought recently], but randomness in SC successor is...). Splinter cell always ment tactics. Stealth is nothing without tactics. Spying is tactics.

Why don't we screw the voice chat in the game and the chat too, so we can do random stuff in a team based game? Why don't we screw dedicated servers, friend lists and etc. and play with random players, on random maps, on random mods? Why don't you mix random materials and see if it will blow your brains out?

When a merc places a mine at famous point (if he doesn't, its not monotome) every time, spies think of another tactic to go past the mine. This stimulates the merc to place the mine on different location. The circle closes. That is how the monotome ends.

[LennardF1989]

On a side note, disabling being able to plant mines within 3 meter of an objective. Blowing up an objective is OK while letting it hack is bad? Riiiight.

Huh, wut?

@Swiftling, it seems you have mixed feelings about randomness initiated on startup all of a sudden? Or am I missunderstanding?

[Zedblade]

On a side note, disabling being able to plant mines within 3 meter of an objective. Blowing up an objective is OK while letting it hack is bad? Riiiight.

Huh, wut?

He means that it doesn't make sense to put an explosive right next to the thing you are protecting. In the real world, if the mine went off, the objective would be destroyed. Luckily, this is a video game so who gives a fuck. If the merc wants to place a mine right next to the objective, let him. It's usually the easiest one to find and disable.

[Farley4Fan]

About the teabagging move earlier in the thread, how amazing would it be to force the merc to watch it in first person through his dead character's visor?  Just seeing those balls coming towards your face over and over again would be enough to make you throw you computer at your old neighbor.

Not even a joke.  This has never been in any other game.  The only teabagging style reference in a game I've seen was an achievement for teabagging your opponent.  This would be miles better.  There would be a teabagging time, or "TB Time", where the merc cannot watch his partner while he spawns and is forced to watch the saggy sack of seeds coming storming towards his screen.  MAKE.  IT. HAPPEN.

[Swiftling]

@Swiftling, it seems you have mixed feelings about randomness initiated on startup all of a sudden? Or am I missunderstanding?

No i didn't. It's different when we talk about a random point AT the IP and random point ON THE WHOLE MAP.
He wants everything, exept the game making and the players in it, to be random. I want only focused things in the game to be random. Like the IP, the ammo crate at random point at the IP.

Why don't we screw the voice chat in the game and the chat too, so we can do random stuff in a team based game? Why don't we screw dedicated servers, friend lists and etc. and play with random players, on random maps, on random mods? Why don't you mix random materials and see if it will blow your brains out?

This is sarcasm.

[Farley4Fan]

About the teabagging move earlier in the thread, how amazing would it be to force the merc to watch it in first person through his dead character's visor?  Just seeing those balls coming towards your face over and over again would be enough to make you throw you computer at your old neighbor.

Not even a joke.  This has never been in any other game.  The only teabagging style reference in a game I've seen was an achievement for teabagging your opponent.  This would be miles better.  There would be a teabagging time, or "TB Time", where the merc cannot watch his partner while he spawns and is forced to watch the saggy sack of seeds coming storming towards his screen.  MAKE.  IT. HAPPEN.

Also, this should happen for spies as well.  Instead of watching your body blink then disappear like in Super mario bros, you watch through your dead face in first person while the merc can bag you if he wishes, until your body disappears. 

Of all my occasionally crappy ideas, this one is the greatest of all.

[Kubanator]

2 posts I made a while back, reposted for your viewing pleasure.

Gadget Design Theory

Spy vs. Merc gameplay is based on 2 different teams.

The attacking team is the Spies, who lack the direct firepower required to overpower the Mercs, so instead must use their acrobatics and their indirect combat abilities to secure objectives, or kill the Mercs

The Mercs are the defending team, who have direct firepower, but the mobility of the Spies.

The Spies job is to evade and escape the Mercs, and complete the objectives, while the Mercs have 2 possibilities, either kill the Spies, or prevent them from capturing the objectives for the allotted time period.

This makes thinking up gadgets much easier. It means the Spy gadgets must do one of the following:

Assist in detection (Heartbeat sensor, Spy bullet, Spy camera)
Assist in evasion (Camouflage, Alarm snare, Spy camera)
Assist in escape (Smoke, Flash and Chaff grenades)
Assist in capturing of objectives (None)

While for the Merc gadgets, they must:

Assist in detection (Flare, Spy trap, Camnet)
Preform area denial (Mines, Spy trap)
Assist in combat (Frag grenade, Taser)
Assist in survival (Backpack, Gas mask)

Gas mask is a special one, as it is purely a counter for 2 spy gadgets, both of which are overpowering without gas mask. Meaning that the Merc must always take it, regardless of if the spy takes one of the 2 gadgets.

All gadgets must fall into one of these categories, and must be able to compete with, but not beat them, in their abilities.

The following is simply my idea on how to fix the gas mask.

I propose that as a gadget choice, Gas mask be removed, and be added as a permanent ability of the Merc, preventing this slot from being wasted.

Gadget ideas

Merc:

The EMP mine disables the spy's visions for x seconds, disables the spy's gadgets for y seconds, and depletes his energy bar. It has a larger explosive radius than proximity mines, and is triggered by laser or proximity, depending on what the devs choose. This does not affect passive security, but does affect Mercs.

The C4 mine can be thrown a short distance and sticks to any wall. It is manually detonated by Mercs, and has a delay of x seconds. Its blast radius is larger than a proximity mine's. It is visible under thermal.

With the addition of these two mines, I recommend that Mercs be limited to using 3/5 mines.

Spy:

The EMI suit disables all nearby equipment including mines, and tracking devices (even attached ones), for as long as they are within the radius of the suit. The suit constantly drains energy while active, able to remain active for x seconds. As soon as objects leave the radius of the suit, they reactivate instantly. This also has the side effect of making a massive EMF field. Might be deactivated if hacking objectives if devs choose to make it so.

Active Countermeasure is a device that negates the detection abilities of the Merc. When equipped and selected it increases its effectiveness when there is more lighting, forcing the Merc to use his regular vision. Under near total darkness, this device blocks detection from x meters away. In the light, it stops detection from y meters away. When activated it constantly drains energy, lasting the spy z seconds and renders the spy completely invisible to motion tracking, EMF vision, laser, and spy tracker. However, the spy cannot pull out his sticky shocker.

[Farley4Fan]

No one has anything to say about the first-person-teabag friendly-death-cam?

[Savior20061]

2 posts I made a while back, reposted for your viewing pleasure.

Gadget Design Theory

Spy vs. Merc gameplay is based on 2 different teams.

The attacking team is the Spies, who lack the direct firepower required to overpower the Mercs, so instead must use their acrobatics and their indirect combat abilities to secure objectives, or kill the Mercs

The Mercs are the defending team, who have direct firepower, but the mobility of the Spies.

The Spies job is to evade and escape the Mercs, and complete the objectives, while the Mercs have 2 possibilities, either kill the Spies, or prevent them from capturing the objectives for the allotted time period.

This makes thinking up gadgets much easier. It means the Spy gadgets must do one of the following:

Assist in detection (Heartbeat sensor, Spy bullet, Spy camera)
Assist in evasion (Camouflage, Alarm snare, Spy camera)
Assist in escape (Smoke, Flash and Chaff grenades)
Assist in capturing of objectives (None)

While for the Merc gadgets, they must:

Assist in detection (Flare, Spy trap, Camnet)
Preform area denial (Mines, Spy trap)
Assist in combat (Frag grenade, Taser)
Assist in survival (Backpack, Gas mask)

Gas mask is a special one, as it is purely a counter for 2 spy gadgets, both of which are overpowering without gas mask. Meaning that the Merc must always take it, regardless of if the spy takes one of the 2 gadgets.

All gadgets must fall into one of these categories, and must be able to compete with, but not beat them, in their abilities.

The following is simply my idea on how to fix the gas mask.

I propose that as a gadget choice, Gas mask be removed, and be added as a permanent ability of the Merc, preventing this slot from being wasted.

Gadget ideas

Merc:

The EMP mine disables the spy's visions for x seconds, disables the spy's gadgets for y seconds, and depletes his energy bar. It has a larger explosive radius than proximity mines, and is triggered by laser or proximity, depending on what the devs choose. This does not affect passive security, but does affect Mercs.

The C4 mine can be thrown a short distance and sticks to any wall. It is manually detonated by Mercs, and has a delay of x seconds. Its blast radius is larger than a proximity mine's. It is visible under thermal.

With the addition of these two mines, I recommend that Mercs be limited to using 3/5 mines.

Spy:

The EMI suit disables all nearby equipment including mines, and tracking devices (even attached ones), for as long as they are within the radius of the suit. The suit constantly drains energy while active, able to remain active for x seconds. As soon as objects leave the radius of the suit, they reactivate instantly. This also has the side effect of making a massive EMF field. Might be deactivated if hacking objectives if devs choose to make it so.

Active Countermeasure is a device that negates the detection abilities of the Merc. When equipped and selected it increases its effectiveness when there is more lighting, forcing the Merc to use his regular vision. Under near total darkness, this device blocks detection from x meters away. In the light, it stops detection from y meters away. When activated it constantly drains energy, lasting the spy z seconds and renders the spy completely invisible to motion tracking, EMF vision, laser, and spy tracker. However, the spy cannot pull out his sticky shocker.

1) Kubanator the mercenaries were already winning most of the matches in Chaos Theory (given mostly even teams). You want to make that more difficult by letting them have another free gadget?
2) C4 mine seems too much like Battlefield to me. And then there would also be the risk of satchel camping, which would make disarming difficult. Assuming of course the merc doesn't start patrolling and eventually forget about it.
3) EMP suit? I'm trying to think it over in my head. It'd actually be nice to have infinite rechargeable chaff or something like that. I give this one a B.
4) Active Counter doesn't make any sense. Is it supposed to be like the thermoptic shit from Chaos Theory?

I have only one suggestion. Please cover up the inner-arms of the spy. I know I've mentioned this a few times, but I like my covert operatives completely covered up (except for Fisher of course).

Kubanator I believe you made a thread once about spy martial art ideas and everyone seemed to like it. Hope that gets in.

[Roberto1223]

i have an idea for a humiliation move!

ok so, as soon as the merc dies, the spy player presses a special key, and then the spy pops out his dick  from inside its pants then rips the dead mercs pants off and starts fucking the merc in the ass with anal action.

what do you think?