The fix list

[InvisibleMan999]

Using camo to automatically bypass passive defenses would be imbalanced. Even though you can pass a lot of them now without tripping them, it generally takes more time than activate camo ---> walk to where you have to go for 10 seconds.

Well, that's actually the point. Taking the gadget saves you time. So somebody could take the camo suit and be able to move past cameras without worrying about being detected. Also keep in mind that you can't run with camo active, so a skilled player who can dodge the cameras might actually be able to cover the distance faster.

And besides, mercs can still reinforce an area with spytraps and mines. (Btw on a side note, I do support moving spytraps back up to 5).

@Invisible,

I personally really like your gun idea (although I don't think that the sniper or shotgun attachment should take up a gadget slot). Unfortunately, it's probably too radical for what they're trying to do on the first installment.

Well, I'm not sure it'd actually be all that hard to program in. Assuming they put in sniper and shotgun functionality, It's actually fairly easy to program in another set of conditionals contingent on having a certain gadget. So instead of pressing sniper zoom to get into sniper mode, you activate the sniper scope gadget. Alternately, you can still press the zoom key, but it only works if you happen to be carrying a scope (depending on how we wanted to implement it). It's a few extra "if" statements added to the code, besides that, the code would be exactly the same, so it would be something that's pretty easy to test out.

Really, the only hard part would be doing the graphics, but in the early installments, I think we'd be okay with just having every gun look alike regardless of what attachment gadgets you go with.

As far as what to consider gadgets and what not to, I'd think we'd need some balancing tool, since we probably want a merc to give up something to get a sniper rifle or shotgun attachment added to his base gun, since they are pretty useful, so I figured a gadget slot would probably be the most logical cost. I suppose we could go Rainbow 6 style and have attachments modify aspects of the gun, like aiming speed and recoil, but I really don't think it'd be a good idea to add a R6 style aiming reticule system to the game. It just seems too invasive to me.

It's possible we could also give people one free attachment and if they want more they can use one of their 4 gadgets. So you'd have the base choice of:

-sniper scope (rifle equivalent)
-extended clip size + possibly more ammo/less recoil/faster fire rate (uzi equivalent)
-shotgun attachment (shotgun equivalent)

Now keep in mind, I don't really want any kind of time required to switch attachments like in CT single player. If you've got a sniper attachment or a shotgun attachment, at most you're going to have to select it first (possibly not even that if each has its own separate key), but there's no prep time to turn your gun from a shotgun to a sniper rifle, nor do they have their own special ammo reserves. Everything simply uses your rifle rounds.

Note that this would make the shotgun considerably better, because it would now have a rifle sized clip and a faster reload speed, and be able to fire in standard rifle mode as well as shotgun mode. I'm not sure I really care about that, because I never saw the shotgun as overpowered in the first place. The rifle would be a bit better, because it's basic combat function would be improved. As far as the uzi-equivalent goes, it depends on how well we make the uzi attachment work. But that's something that we'd probably have to balance in game to see how it works. The toughest thing would probably be making the uzi style attachment worth something compared to the shotgun attachment.

We could remove the taser from gadgets altogether, which would probably end up saving some programming time in the long run.

[Spekkio]

It's not about programming time, but being too radically different from PT/CT, which is what they're shooting for on the first installment. I personally don't like the idea of giving up one of 4 gadget slots for a sniper scope or shotgun attachment. Since the gun is selectable in CT, you could count the gun as a 5th slot...that's the only way I'd support what you're suggesting.

And another reason I don't support the whole camo thing is it's rather mindless. Activate camo ---> walk through any defenses in the map. It's kinda dumb.

[frvge]

Maybe you can show up on the radar with it?

So then the defenses can be bypassed, but the mercs know where you are.

The advantage is simple: no alarms are set off, so the objectives are stiill hackable.
With teamwork, you can lure mercs. (1 spy hides, other spy activates camo and mercs try to attack him, giving the waiting spy a chance for a neck).


It would give newbies a relatively fast way of getting past defenses. Certainly faster than trying to dodge the lasers and cams, like pros would. Or even worse: tripping the alarms.

Till the point where they mastered the dodging and wont need the camo anymore.

[Spekkio]

Which is a retarded change. You might as well just leave it so the defenses detect you. You're making needless changes for the same net result if the spy shows up on radar.

[frvge]

Well, at least the objectives arent locked

[InvisibleMan999]

It's not about programming time, but being too radically different from PT/CT, which is what they're shooting for on the first installment. I personally don't like the idea of giving up one of 4 gadget slots for a sniper scope or shotgun attachment. Since the gun is selectable in CT, you could count the gun as a 5th slot...that's the only way I'd support what you're suggesting.

Well yeah, I was thinking maybe you get a free attachment that doesn't take a gadget slot, and you can take other gun attachments if you want, but only by sacrificing additional slots. So you do get a 5th slot that's sort of free that you must use on an attachment.

That way you get the basic CT dynamic from the start, only now you've got the option of having multiple weapons. So you could have a scoped rifle with a shotgun attachment for instance, if you're willing to devote a gadget slot.

We could also use the 5th gun slot to allow for various other passive "upgrade" gadgets for the merc. For instance, I'm thinking maybe we could make MT's shadow inversion ability into a gadget. By default it doesn't invert shadows, but if you've got some new gadget, then it could. The same maybe could be done with post render quality or even EAX.

That way you force mercs to pay for their superman ears and so forth. So yeah, you can get enhanced ability to detect spies, but you now only have a base non-scoped rifle or you're down a gadget. In any case, you're forcing people to make choices, and I think that's a good thing. Some people really might trade frags or a backpack for MT shadow inversion or a shotgun attachment on their rifle.

The nice thing about programming the game that way is that these gadgets can always be made automatic later,  but it allows extensive balance fine tuning, with minimal programming difficulties. Since I think we will want to make balance changes at some point in development (maybe not the first build, but somewhere down the road), it'd be kind of nice to make the program from the beginning to allow those sort of changes.

And another reason I don't support the whole camo thing is it's rather mindless. Activate camo ---> walk through any defenses in the map. It's kinda dumb.

You're absolutely right. It is mindless. But then again, so is dropping a chaff instead of shooting out lasers manually. One of the possible uses of a gadget is to save you time and I think it's rather reasonable to allow camo to save people time from sneaking past cameras. I mean, you're paying a gadget slot to be more invisible, I don't think it's crazy to allow it to make you undetectable on camera too.

I'm not suggesting camo lets you bypass lasers. I think that'd be a bit too extreme. But I don't see a problem in letting it bypass cameras. After all, all it's really doing is saving you a few seconds.

I guess I've always considered camo sort of a newb gadget anyway, and I don't mind giving newbies an easy way to dodge cameras. Hell if you want to devote a gadget slot to it and save 3 seconds, then knock yourself out.

I mean, honestly I think rolling through lasers is more abusive than this mod to camo, because you don't have to pay a gadget slot to roll through lasers. So if you think rolling through lasers is ok to save you time, then it should be plenty okay to camo up and move past a camera.

[frvge]

Scoped rifle with shotgun  = GODLIKE. Good at close, medium and long range. Na-uh, that is just overpowered. MAYBE when you need to sacrifise an extra slot, 2 total. I like the idea of swapping attachments at far-away ammo crates better then.

[InvisibleMan999]

Scoped rifle with shotgun  = GODLIKE. Good at close, medium and long range. Na-uh, that is just overpowered. MAYBE when you need to sacrifise an extra slot, 2 total. I like the idea of swapping attachments at far-away ammo crates better then.

Well, keep in mind you're burning a gadget slot to do it. The shotgun is pretty much the same effect as a taser, though a bit more effective.

Also under this paradigm, I'd expect we'd cut down on the shotgun's range to make it only useful at close range.

Considering you're giving up frags, mines, backpack or gasmask to get the shotgun add-on, I don't think that's too big of a deal. You can snipe, and you're dangerous at close range, though mid-range you basically still just have a normal rifle.

[Spekkio]

Yea, scoped rifle + shotgun attachment = no. You either get one or the other. Both is dumb, whether it takes up a gadget slot or not.

Chaffing gives a security failure message while what you suggest for camo does not. And if it will, then there's no point to the change.

Also, there are specific routes you have to take to bypass cameras without making a security failure. Good mercs know this and set their traps up accordingly. If camo just bypasses all that, you make it way too easy to get past everything. It would be impossible to trap up. Then all of a sudden a spy starts hacking and you're nowhere near there...not because he has uber stealth skills, but because he took camo. Not trying to be rude or anything, but it really is a terrible idea and would completely imbalance the game.

Finally, camo isn't a noob gadget. Just because you don't like to use it or can't figure out how to make it work for you doesn't mean others can't.

Honestly, I think the current SvM is a great game that is balanced on most maps, so I'd like to see the changes in gameplay kept down to a minimum. Aside from the map changes, 90% of what I posted are bugs/netcode issues. Hell, I'd be ecstatic if Ubi would release a patch that fixed funny punching, insta frags, and the jump hitbox when client spies try to jump mercs. After that, it's all gravy.

[frvge]

What I said was that it would show up on radar as a marker, so then you have time to get to the obj.

Chaff is faster. Maybe the activation of the camo can take 5 secs? A 'powering up'?

[InvisibleMan999]

Yea, scoped rifle + shotgun attachment = no. You either get one or the other. Both is dumb, whether it takes up a gadget slot or not.

I dunno, I think it could be ok. I mean, in PT we had to deal with rifle + taser, which was almost equivalent to rifle + shotgun. So really, it'd be very similar to PT. I wouldn't have a problem with toning down the shotgun's damage at non-point blank range. Really, I just figure it'd be easier to use a shotgun instead of a taser. Because if you've got shotgun as a gun-addon then you've got no need for a taser.

Now possibly we can just toss out the shotgun as a whole and only have the taser if we deem the shotgun too powerful when paired with a base rifle.

Seriously though, I think I could probably care less if someone wants to burn a gadget slot or two to have a really awesome rifle that works as shotgun, uzi and sniper. This just means they're lacking mines or frags or what not. The nice thing about using gadget slots is that the merc gadgets are so good. You're really suffering if you have to give one up.

Chaffing gives a security failure message while what you suggest for camo does not. And if it will, then there's no point to the change.

Well that's true, but so does shooting the lasers out. The analogy is that all factors considered, chaff is a mindless way to bypass lasers instead of shooting them out. It saves you time. Now you can use time to bypass a camera (by sneaking past), or you could camo up and save time by possessing the right gadget. Both methods produce the same results (no security failure message), it's just the camo method is faster. Similar to how dropping chaff is faster than manually shooting out the lasers.

Also, there are specific routes you have to take to bypass cameras without making a security failure. Good mercs know this and set their traps up accordingly. If camo just bypasses all that, you make it way too easy to get past everything. It would be impossible to trap up. Then all of a sudden a spy starts hacking and you're nowhere near there...not because he has uber stealth skills, but because he took camo. Not trying to be rude or anything, but it really is a terrible idea and would completely imbalance the game.

It wouldn't be impossible to trap up. While camoed, you can't jump, can't dive and can't run. So that means that a straight crouch beam spytrap behind a box (so you can't shoot it) would be enough. Not to mention that there are generally other spots to laser off. I'm not seeing it as being particularly unbalanced, though maybe you could point out some maps where you think it would severely create problems to illustrate your point. I can't really think of any offhand. I'm seeing factory maybe as a bit harder to defend, but since there are doorways with lasers anyway, you can easily put a spytrap or poison mine there to further slow the spy.

Finally, camo isn't a noob gadget. Just because you don't like to use it or can't figure out how to make it work for you doesn't mean others can't.

Well I'm just saying that a lot of noobs tend to take it. I know there are pros who make it work for them. And that's great. Just saying it isn't particularly one of the most popular gadgets among pros and could probably use a slight boost. Among spies, it's probably the least used gadget.

Honestly, I think the current SvM is a great game that is balanced on most maps, so I'd like to see the changes in gameplay kept down to a minimum. Aside from the map changes, 90% of what I posted are bugs/netcode issues. Hell, I'd be ecstatic if Ubi would release a patch that fixed funny punching, insta frags, and the jump hitbox when client spies try to jump mercs. After that, it's all gravy.

Well, MT has some serious issues, as well as EAX and side grab. 

As far as changing around how guns work and upgrading camo, those are just some optional add-ons.

While I don't think they're top priority, I'm actually more interested in saying we should program project stealth in such a way that it is capable of being modified later to accommodate different balance tests. I mean, we may never actually use any of these ideas, but it's kind of nice to have them there.

I mean, there's nothing we can do at this point other than give the design team ideas, so we might as well just spit some out and see what they like and what they don't. And we are making a new game so we might as well add some fixes and balance changes since we can now. While CT versus is good, I don't think it was quite perfect.

[Spekkio]

I dunno, I think it could be ok. I mean, in PT we had to deal with rifle + taser, which was almost equivalent to rifle + shotgun. So really, it'd be very similar to PT. I wouldn't have a problem with toning down the shotgun's damage at non-point blank range. Really, I just figure it'd be easier to use a shotgun instead of a taser. Because if you've got shotgun as a gun-addon then you've got no need for a taser.

The rifle + tazer was completely imbalanced and as such was removed. So your argument for putting the rifle + shotgun + scope attachment is that we used to have an overpowered tazer? Sorry, you just shot yourself in the foot with that one.

Well that's true, but so does shooting the lasers out. The analogy is that all factors considered, chaff is a mindless way to bypass lasers instead of shooting them out. It saves you time. Now you can use time to bypass a camera (by sneaking past), or you could camo up and save time by possessing the right gadget. Both methods produce the same results (no security failure message), it's just the camo method is faster. Similar to how dropping chaff is faster than manually shooting out the lasers.

You're still missing the bottom line: chaff makes noise and alerts the mercs to a security failure. This is the tradeoff for going faster. Your idea about camo would not give the mercs any sort of notice that a spy is infiltrating an area. He's literally just walking in.

The reason so many people avoid camo is that no one knows who can hear it across the map and who can't. This is all hardware dependent and obviously something that needs to be fixed in PS (hence it's on the list). If it is fixed, camo doesn't need any further boost than that.

As for the maps that would be fucked up from this: Factory (coop in main hall with no security out), Club (get into steam/jacuzzi with no security out), Station (go through tech rooms/apartments with no security out), River mall (able to walk about the hi-fi area with no security outs), Cinema (able to move about the entire map more quickly without security outs), Krauser (same thing as cinema), Hospital (can go into rooms without tripping motion sensor, which is relied upon for 116/205/100), Deftech (can move about the entire map with no security out, albeit this is a bad example because Deftech isn't balanced as-is)...there are probably many more instances but I hope that giving you more than half a dozen examples on maps that are balanced (except station and deftech) is enough to demonstrate my point.

MT isn't that big of a deal. It's only bad on some maps where the spies are bottlenecked into crossing open space while the mercs have superior position (read: deftech, station sector 2, etc). Other than that, it's not a big deal...there are enough cover and routes in the game to avoid MT whores. EAX is bugged, and the side grabs are faulty net code...hence they made the list.

By the way, stop saying "we" when referring to programming project stealth. Are you doing it? If not, then you should be saying "they."

It's good that you guys are throwing out ideas, it's just that this isn't a very good one.

scworld:

You have to think of using camo in a global sense, not just going past security. If you give it a 5 second "power-up," then how is a spy going to use it in other circumstances.

Again, this is why the changes should be kept to a minimum. If you make a radical change to A, then that has repurcussions on B and C...so then you change those, and it has repurcussions elsewhere...and then suddenly you have an entirely different game since you've made so many changes.

[Gawain]

I'm kina unsure if only fixing the sound will balance the camo. i like to see some gameplay changes, and the camera thing sounds interesting. Just remember, the game will be finished to the end of 2008 (if at all), so we will have played scct for more than three years. Am I the only one who thinks it's getting boring? oO
My idea about camo comes from bf2142. In this game, the camo makes the player blurry, he still can be seen quite easily, but it's way harder to snipe him. What about the blurry thing for a quick moving spy so that he can be seen quite easily, but is way harder to snipe?
My favorite idea about the gun is the pandora sniper and the (balanced) tazer as an optional gadget.

[InvisibleMan999]

The rifle + tazer was completely imbalanced and as such was removed. So your argument for putting the rifle + shotgun + scope attachment is that we used to have an overpowered tazer? Sorry, you just shot yourself in the foot with that one.

I guess I just never had a problem with the pandora taser. Everyone else complained it was crazy broken, I just never saw it. Personally, I'd be totally okay with bringing back the PT taser, as the CT taser is pure garbage. The CT taser has such a small range that it's pretty much useless. I'd really like to see a gadget that you're paying a gadget slot for to be more useful. As it is now, you could give out the CT taser as default equipment and nobody would even care. It's that ineffective.

When you take a taser (or a shotgun attachment under my system), you're taking something that stops aggro. That's seriously all it does. Given the merc already has rather formidable close combat moves (charge/ berserk), the gadget needs to be above and beyond that. The PT taser actually was worth taking, the CT taser is a joke.

You're still missing the bottom line: chaff makes noise and alerts the mercs to a security failure. This is the tradeoff for going faster. Your idea about camo would not give the mercs any sort of notice that a spy is infiltrating an area. He's literally just walking in.

Well no, you're missing the point. Remember the comparison is shooting out lasers versus chaff. Both make noise. Both produce security failure messages. The only difference is that one is faster than the other.

The other case: sneaking past camera versus camo past camera. Neither produce sound, neither produce security failure messages. Once again, the only difference here is that one happens to be faster than the other.

As for the maps that would be fucked up from this: Factory (coop in main hall with no security out),

Coop in the main hall without security? The main hall doesn't even have cameras in it, just lasers.

Club (get into steam/jacuzzi with no security out),

Well at best, it's going to buy you a couple seconds on clubhouse. because you can camo up past the cameras instead of shooting them. I'm not really certain if it would be totally busted. It just means spies buy a couple extra seconds of hack time by taking a gadget. 

Station (go through tech rooms/apartments with no security out),

Those aren't even cameras... they're proximity sensors if I recall correctly. I'm not suggesting camo beat all static defenses, just cameras.

River mall (able to walk about the hi-fi area with no security outs),

That's true. Though since river mall has the main sensor in the merc spawn, I don't see it as a problem. Using camo means you're moving somewhat slower and you've still got to shoot out lasers. Not to mention mercs should come to expect it and use EMF in the hi-fi area.

Cinema (able to move about the entire map more quickly without security outs), Krauser (same thing as cinema), Hospital (can go into rooms without tripping motion sensor, which is relied upon for 116/205/100),

Again, camo doesn't beat motion sensors, it doesn't beat lasers. It just beats cameras, that's it. I think you're ignoring what I've been saying here. Having camo beat all static defense would be crazy. But that's not even what I'm suggesting.

MT isn't that big of a deal. It's only bad on some maps where the spies are bottlenecked into crossing open space while the mercs have superior position (read: deftech, station sector 2, etc). Other than that, it's not a big deal...there are enough cover and routes in the game to avoid MT whores. EAX is bugged, and the side grabs are faulty net code...hence they made the list.

Well the problems with MT are much more serious I think. Let me list the advantages of MT over the flashlight.

-MT doesn't require the merc to announce his presence (no big beam of light)
-You can be seen in MT vision even if you're not moving.
-MT inverts shadows
-MT straight out announces the spy's presence with its box and sound effect. No searching required.
-MT works in 360 degrees (as opposed to just a small area of your viewscreen illuminated with the flashlight)
-When detected by MT, you may not even know it, as opposed to having a big beam of light on top of you.
-MT box follows you for some time after you've left the field of view, meaning it sometimes can give away your hiding spot after you've gone out of range.
-MT makes you immune to flash.
-Any animation triggers MT. 

And there are really no drawbacks to it.

MT is definitely at the top of the list of actual balance changes.

I think if we're going minimalist, it may actually be the only true balance change that this game needs.

Personally I'd like to see some changes though, after all, why go through the trouble of making a new game that plays exactly like the old one? I've always seen this project as creating Double Agent as we envisioned it. Not just a CT clone, but CT evolved.

[Spekkio]

I'm sorry, but if you ask around the community almost no one will want the PT tazer back, and as such wouldn't be supportive of your idea, either.

You need to play factory more. There is a camera at the main hall coop objective that must be shot out. I'm not missing your point: your point is that sneaking and using the camo is analagous to shooting out lasers or using chaff. It's not really analogous to that at all. Firstly, the difference between shooting out a laser and chaffing it is like 1 second...the difference between taking a convoluded route around cameras and just camoing through them would be like 5 seconds. Sneaking past cameras takes time and care; you are rewarded for this time and care by not alerting the mercs to your presence. Having camo let you go past cameras (or motion sensors as someone suggested) means that you don't have to put time and care into concealing your presence. It's just dumb.

Camo is meant to be a piece of equipment that allows you to traverse open areas under concealment (basically the answer to MT whoring). The problem is that activating it, even at long ranges, makes the mercs turn on EMF so they see you anyway because some people can hear it no matter what. There's also the problem of creeping slow and having the box go off because it's so sensitive, but I have that in the fix list. It's not meant to give you a free pass to get past security, and it's not meant to hide yourself to get a grab everytime a merc comes around the corner. If they can make a max distance on the activation sound a radius of about 5 meters, that's all camo needs to become more useful.

Club is the most balanced map as it is. Allow the spies into steam/jacuzzi without a security out and you make it imbalanced for spies. It's only a couple of seconds extra, but it makes a huge difference. This is a game that revolves around seconds.

If Mall were changed to not have a camnet in the hologram room, then that's all you really need to balance the map out. Most people think it's bullshit that it's there in the first place. Adding the ability to walk around in camo on top of that is just bad. Even with camnet in the hologram room, it's impossible for one merc to guard hi-fi.

Someone threw the idea of having camo let you go by motion sensors as well, which is why I mentioned the maps with motion sensors. But, I'll replace some of those with another case: Schermerhorn...you'd be able to hack the objectives in the water room without making a security out or going through the hassle of hacking the cameras off.

You're right that MT doesn't really have many drawbacks to it. I don't think it's omgwtf bad though, simply because most maps have enough places to go where it's not a big deal. Your idea of removing the sound reticle while in MT, but leaving the rest of the vision as-is, might be very interesting to test out.

Fixing the bugs on their own will produce gameplay changes. Look at the big difference between PT and CT, and only a minimal amount of things were changed. You don't need to go nuts with radical ideas to improve the gameplay by a large margin. Also, having new maps, if they're balanced, would make the game fresh.