The fix list

[InvisibleMan999]

I'm sorry, but if you ask around the community almost no one will want the PT tazer back, and as such wouldn't be supportive of your idea, either.

Well, I'm not sure, I guess it's something for a poll to figure out though. I know for sure back from my PT days that a lot of people complained about the taser, but the same is true in CT of the shotgun, the uzi and the rifle.

The PT taser remember was back in the day before we had berserk and when the merc charge didn't even knock the spy down. It was literally the only decent close combat option the merc had. This made it seem more powerful back in the day. A merc without the taser was nearly helpless in close combat.

In CT, that's not exactly true anymore. CT mercs have quite a bit of useful close combat options as their disposal by default.

Also back in PT, the merc equipment was significantly weaker. You had frags, mines and spytraps, which were the essentials, then you had really no other choice other than the taser. By taking the taser you had to give up almost nothing because phosphorous and flares sucked, so it was almost free.

CT changed that too. By adding gas mask and backpack, we've got a couple other solid choices contending for that spot. Sacrificing a gadget slot for a taser is now a real price you're paying, instead of something trivial like in PT. 

And when you spend a gadget slot for improved close combat, which is what taking a taser is all about, I think it should be a decent increase. It should make aggro players think twice about coming near you, because it is specifically an anti-aggro gadget. That's all it does. If it can't counter aggro effectively, then it's a waste of your time. Yes, aggro players should find it a pain in the ass. It's made to screw them over.

The CT taser on the other hand is a joke, I hope we can at least agree on that. Someone takes the taser, and you don't even care. It's got about the same range of a spy's elbow attack. It's just sad... I personally don't even think it helps against aggro players. It's just a wasted gadget. I already have berserk and I don't have to pay a gadget for that. Taser needs to be as useful as frags, mines or gas mask. The PT taser in my opinion met that criteria, the CT taser falls short by a great amount. I might actually even take flares over the CT taser. It's that bad.

If Mall were changed to not have a camnet in the hologram room, then that's all you really need to balance the map out. Most people think it's bullshit that it's there in the first place. Adding the ability to walk around in camo on top of that is just bad. Even with camnet in the hologram room, it's impossible for one merc to guard hi-fi.

With the camnet, it's very possible for one merc to guard hi-fi, at least against a single spy. Two spies, requires two mercs of course. But yeah, I guess without the camnet, it would be a bit too powerful with camo.

So okay. I suppose lets hold off on the camo versus cameras for now and just fix the activation sound.  There are after all many more important things to deal with than trying to make camo better (which is a minor point at best).

You're right that MT doesn't really have many drawbacks to it. I don't think it's omgwtf bad though, simply because most maps have enough places to go where it's not a big deal. Your idea of removing the sound reticle while in MT, but leaving the rest of the vision as-is, might be very interesting to test out.

Yeah, it'd be nice to do something against MT. Even if you could go full speed crouch or do animations while a merc's back is to you, that'd make a big difference. Turning off the sound reticule completely (as opposed to just suppressing it, like the merc laser does), would force people to go from MT to normal vision to hear stuff and that may also be a big enough disadvantage.

Fixing the bugs on their own will produce gameplay changes. Look at the big difference between PT and CT, and only a minimal amount of things were changed. You don't need to go nuts with radical ideas to improve the gameplay by a large margin. Also, having new maps, if they're balanced, would make the game fresh.

Fixing MT and EAX alone will likely change the game dynamic quite a bit. Really, I'll be satisfied if we can get rid of MT whoring, superman ears and sidegrabs. That would be enough to make the mod worthwhile at the very least.

[Spekkio]

Again, your argument for buffing the CT tazer back to PT style is that the mercs are stronger in CT because of CC moves and gasmask. What sense does that make if it was overpowered to begin with? While I agree it could use a slight range buff, it needs to be somewhere between the PT and CT distance. I also think that the KO time on the tazer needs to be nerfed along with the range buff...nothing was more frustrating than jumping or camming a merc, he tazes you, and he gets up first. Considering that KOing a merc is much harder than tazing a spy, the tazer should only last as long as a charge/berserk KO.

With the camnet, it's very possible for one merc to guard hi-fi, at least against a single spy.

No, it's not. The spy can easily get 1 objective because the routes the merc has to take between lower hi-fi and office is much longer than the route for the spy to take between lower hi-fi and office. This is especially true if you manage to hack the cameras, although it's really easy for the mercs to reset them.

Fixing MT and EAX alone will likely change the game dynamic quite a bit. Really, I'll be satisfied if we can get rid of MT whoring, superman ears and sidegrabs. That would be enough to make the mod worthwhile at the very least.

For me it's insta frags, lag charges, and funny punches because EAX and MT whoring is at least consistent, but everyone has their thing :).

[InvisibleMan999]

Again, your argument for buffing the CT tazer back to PT style is that the mercs are stronger in CT because of CC moves and gasmask. What sense does that make if it was overpowered to begin with?

Well honestly I don't think it was overpowered. I think it just seemed overpowered back in the day of PT because it was all the mercs had for close combat moves. Also PT was much more of an aggro circle grab game because of the lack of a gas mask, so smoke + grab was a big tactic back then. I've always held the opinion that if the merc sees you coming and you're in close range with a guy with anti-aggro gadgets, you should lose. So I guess I've never considered the PT taser to be unbalanced at all, even back in the days of PT.

About all it really hurt were people who tried to circle and grab. Aside from that, it doesn't help against:

-stealth grabs (especially if we take your suggestion and remove charge  + jump, which I can agree with)
-evasive or stealthy spies who stay out of sight or out of range
-having a partner sneak up behind the merc while running around in front of him.

All it stops is people who want to do a close range head-on attack on the merc. And all I can say is that if you haven't flashed him, chaffed him or SSed him, and he happens to be carrying a taser, you get what you deserve. There are so many ways to beat the taser.

I also think that the KO time on the tazer needs to be nerfed along with the range buff...nothing was more frustrating than jumping or camming a merc, he tazes you, and he gets up first. Considering that KOing a merc is much harder than tazing a spy, the tazer should only last as long as a charge/berserk KO.

I'd be okay with that. It's not really the tase time that even matters much to me. It's more the range. I'd have no problem if it just knocked him down like a merc charge. In fact, I don't even care if the taser does actual damage or not to the spy.

All I actually care about is stunning him for a little bit and actually being able to have the range to hit him.

If it doesn't have better range than a berserk, it's basically useless. Nerf the rest of it, but at least give it PT range.

No, it's not. The spy can easily get 1 objective because the routes the merc has to take between lower hi-fi and office is much longer than the route for the spy to take between lower hi-fi and office. This is especially true if you manage to hack the cameras, although it's really easy for the mercs to reset them.

Well, not unless he's sneaky. Basically the spy is going to enter through the office. So lets say he spy bullets the entrance to office so he knows you're coming up the stairs then he jumps into the vent. This is actually his most dangerous position. Of course, it's not impossible to beat. Right now he's in hi-fi ventillation according to camnet. He has a couple options. He can drop into main hi-fi, he can drop into the back of the showroom, or he can return to the office. The office is by far the quickest of these routes. So you plant a proxy or laser mine in the office to slow his return.

So you basically stand around the base of the stairs to office. watching your camnet. If he ever goes to hi-fi first floor, you run like hell to the showroom, you should get there before he can get the lasers off and hack it, regardless of the way he comes. If he goes back to office or you hear "security failure" you head up the stairs back to office of course. His other option is to try main hi-fi and go for hi-fi second floor. This is easily remedied by a well placed frag if he starts hacking up there. You can also toggle your camnet to show hi-fi main hall to see if he comes out the vent there. Since you're standing by the office stairs you can always assume that you've got cameras active.

In any case, he shouldn't get more than a few seconds at most on any one terminal if you use that strategy.

Once he's actual in hi-fi, the strategy is just to stand at the base of the main stairs and alternating between MT, EMF and quick camnet checks. If you see hi-fi first, stay closer to the showroom, if you see hi-fi second, head upstairs. Obviously keep watch on the upper way to the office window. The only time you're really in trouble is if the fans are off and he can use the vent in lower hi-fi to the get to the stairwell to office.

For me it's insta frags, lag charges, and funny punches because EAX and MT whoring is at least consistent, but everyone has their thing :).

Yeah I'm more worried about consistent things, because they're legitimate balance problems. If something is inconsistent, at the very least it isn't something people can factor into their strategies, so it doesn't change the game itself. It just makes you curse at the game once in a while when you happen to get insta-naded.

Also so much of the lag problems could simply be solved with better netcode, which I actually think is going to be something we get for free, since we're using UT's netcode instead of UBIs. And lets face it, UBI has the worst netcode programmers ever.

[Spekkio]

So you basically stand around the base of the stairs to office. watching your camnet. If he ever goes to hi-fi first floor, you run like hell to the showroom, you should get there before he can get the lasers off and hack it, regardless of the way he comes. If he goes back to office or you hear "security failure" you head up the stairs back to office of course. His other option is to try main hi-fi and go for hi-fi second floor. This is easily remedied by a well placed frag if he starts hacking up there. You can also toggle your camnet to show hi-fi main hall to see if he comes out the vent there. Since you're standing by the office stairs you can always assume that you've got cameras active.

That doesn't work because while he's in the ceiling above hi-fi first floor, the camnet reads "hi-fi first floor." He can also shoot out the lasers to hi-fi first floor while on that ceiling. So you end up running down there and then the spy is just a hop away from offices. Or you stay put and the spy proceeds to actually hack it. It may take a bit, but if the spy is careful there's no way you're killing him before getting an objective without help.

Well honestly I don't think it [tazer in pt] was overpowered.

we'll have to agree to disagree there, but you're in the vast minority.

It helps in battles period, which occur frequently especially towards the end of the round. Using the tazer has no drawback like the charge does. It would also significantly extend the range a spy would have to be away from a merc to stay out of his reach because you could just charge + taze, which was all-too-common in PT. In theory you can say "oh, just stay away from the mercs", but in practice most of the game is played in areas too small for that.

[Lurch]

In theory you can say "oh, just stay away from the mercs", but in practice most of the game is played in areas too small for that.

QFE

[InvisibleMan999]

That doesn't work because while he's in the ceiling above hi-fi first floor, the camnet reads "hi-fi first floor." He can also shoot out the lasers to hi-fi first floor while on that ceiling. So you end up running down there and then the spy is just a hop away from offices. Or you stay put and the spy proceeds to actually hack it. It may take a bit, but if the spy is careful there's no way you're killing him before getting an objective without help.

Hmm, that's kind of interesting, I never knew you could shoot out the lasers from the ceiling. That would certainly make things a lot more difficult. 

Well honestly I don't think it [tazer in pt] was overpowered.

we'll have to agree to disagree there, but you're in the vast minority.

It helps in battles period, which occur frequently especially towards the end of the round. Using the tazer has no drawback like the charge does. It would also significantly extend the range a spy would have to be away from a merc to stay out of his reach because you could just charge + taze, which was all-too-common in PT. In theory you can say "oh, just stay away from the mercs", but in practice most of the game is played in areas too small for that.

As far as being in the minority about the taser, I'm not sure about that. We should really run a poll as far as what taser people prefer. 

I wouldn't have a problem with preventing people from tasing after a charge, similar to how we want to stop them from jumping. Perhaps use of gadgets in general shouldn't be allowed after a charge until you've recovered.   

And yes a taser doesn't have the drawbacks of a charge. Which is actually fine because you're not paying a gadget slot for a charge. Your main problem seems to be that you want the charge and the taser to be equal. This isn't true based on cost. The taser costs you a gadget slot, the charge does not. Therefore the taser needs to be better.

As far as staying away from the mercs, it's impossible to completely stay away from them, but it's very possible to not enter taser range without first having them chaffed, shocked, flashbanged, or just taken by surprise. I mean like I said, if you go on a head-on charge toward a merc without any precautions and the merc spent the gadget slot to get the taser, then you should get fried. That's what it's for. Especially if jump + charge gets nerfed, mercs will probably want some better way to handle aggro, and a better taser is the most logical way.

Would you be happy with PT taser length with the restriction that you can't charge + taser, the taser inflicts no actual damage and the duration with which you're stunned was the same as getting knocked down by a charge?

[Valserp]

As I recall it, I had no problems with PT tazer. But most of us weren't as familiar with the game back then as we are now. So maybe just let beta testing(whenever) determine the best range for that?

[LiVe.To.Di3]

why not just have the CT tazer?

[Gawain]

why not just have the CT tazer?

maybe u should read the previous posts first...
Imo the tazer had to become at least as strong as the pandora one to rectify the slot. With much more fluid aiming, few to no lag, and no host advantage aggro spies will have a very hard time anyway. Why does no one talk about the real problems??

[InvisibleMan999]

As I recall it, I had no problems with PT tazer. But most of us weren't as familiar with the game back then as we are now. So maybe just let beta testing(whenever) determine the best range for that?

Yeah, I'm really curious actually to poll people and see what people actually thought of the PT taser. Thus far, spekkio has been the only one who has said the PT taser was too powerful.

Or maybe we could go back and play some PT now that we know more about the game. Because really, I played a lot of PT back in the day and I never remember the taser as being too powerful. Of course, I was a very stealth oriented spy, so the taser didn't bother me at all. If the merc detected me and was close enough to taser me. Also I could just throw down a chaff too.

[Spekkio]

The tazer in PT was the only way to balance SS+ DJ. SS+DJ no longer exists...

[Gawain]

The tazer in PT was the only way to balance SS+ DJ. SS+DJ no longer exists...

this is a bad way of balancing ss+dj XD

[InvisibleMan999]

The tazer in PT was the only way to balance SS+ DJ. SS+DJ no longer exists...

Honestly I'm not even convinced of that. Because SS + DJ still worked, even with the taser. I mean, when you're shocked, you can't taser someone anyway. So it doesn't seem like much of a counter.

[Overstatement]

I probably use the tazer more than any of you and there are two things I hate about it:
1) When a spy is clearly running towards you, he almost always elbows you before you can taze him.
2) It's always disabled when you need it like after a charge or being elbowed (I think). It's never there when you're being aggroed.
3) and there's some stuff with lag but what isn't affect by lag?

Quick Poll: In those situations where a spy get's tazed while doing the elbow and you see him being tazed and running around, if we were to fix that, should the spy be tazed or should he be unaffected?

[InvisibleMan999]

1) When a spy is clearly running towards you, he almost always elbows you before you can taze him.

This is exactly why I think the CT taser is useless.