Idea about MT

[Valserp]

- Loss of ALL HUD functions. 'Yeah, it uses all of our power'-excuse. Even amount of bullets, and if you hit someone or not. Only thing that functions is the crosshair.

I'm against that. MT's main purpose is to make chasing spies easier. Chasing spies includes shooting at them; and the reason there is hit detection on your crosshair is because some servers require that you adjust your aim.

[Overstatement]

well, that would only happen if its completely overdone. in most areas, a rat should be tripping mt say every 5 to 30 seconds, and the box of a small object like a rat far away could be quite small or somewhat and easy to distinguish from an aggroing spy. but it would be quite annyoing for a camping spy with mt, because he has to turn his head in order to check what set off mt ;)
there could also be aggro zones and non-aggro zones this way. btw, aggro is quite balanced, don't complain about it all the time.

I never said aggro wasn't unbalanced but it will be if you make changes to MT without considering aggro. I've never switch on MT as soon as spy aggro me (instead, I start tazing like crazy) but most mercs you aggro do; so I think anti-aggro is one of the most important uses of MT.

It's too elaborate and map dependent. I'd rather just have a fix that works in all maps, rather than relying on map designers to put in rats and moving shutters. That's a lot of extra coding to program in the motion of rats and things.

Also, while this change will certainly make you more paranoid, it's not really going to change balance that much, except against aggro. Most of the time, you've still got time to check your back then snap around to the front when you realize it was a rat, except when you're running through smoke fighting an aggro spy. Really the change amounts to discouraging MT whoring by annoying the hell out of the merc using it.

Now that he said it, I agree. First, you can't assume that someone will stop using something because they'll be annoyed anymore than you can assume that sniping running headshots will be impossible because the beta team couldn't do it. There are certainly people with enough patience to keep on using MT dispite it being annoying.

And the idea would kind of limit the map marker's creativity. For example, if he wants to put in an analog clock on the wall, it could make that room unbalanced (just an example, lots of things move). And it's more complicated than it seems, what if you shot the rat? Would another rat take it's place or have we just made MT stronger in that area?

[Spekkio]

Why does everyone want to nerf MT into oblivion? Like I said, with the exception of a few ill-conceived map designs, MT isn't that big of a deal.

[Gawain]

Why does everyone want to nerf MT into oblivion? Like I said, with the exception of a few ill-conceived map designs, MT isn't that big of a deal.

that's exactly why i think about stuff like rats. mt whoring is no real problem in most areas, but we need a solution for maps like deftech, polar etc (ok they'r crap anyway) and some big rooms like digger, main, etc. but if the spy could move a little bit faster in the slow-mode, and gets a slow-climb move, things might be balanced.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Or instead of rats we can have some remote gadget for the spies that makes MT crazy :P
Say you are on Mount Hospital - rats are ok there, but what about Vertigo plaza or some maps that are Hi-Tech (Krauser Lab)? There the spies should get a gadet that you can plant, and remotely activate to fool mercs, or just to prevent MT camping.
^Thats just my opinion - rats on dirty/ abandoned maps - additional gadget on Hi-Tech maps  8)

[Overstatement]

Why does everyone want to nerf MT into oblivion? Like I said, with the exception of a few ill-conceived map designs, MT isn't that big of a deal.

One of the problems I have with MT is that it's unintuitive for the spy. As a merc, I rarely use MT so I have little idea of how much it nightvisions. So when I'm a spy and deciding where to hide, I judge the darkness on my screen and choose one that seems sufficient. And the mercs in normal vision and flashlight off seem to agree with me but the mercs with MT on don't. So it's not that it's overpowered by itself but it's just something that rarely consider when hiding. Intuitively, I think one hiding spot should work for everything that's not a flashlight.

[InvisibleMan999]

Why does everyone want to nerf MT into oblivion? Like I said, with the exception of a few ill-conceived map designs, MT isn't that big of a deal.

Well here's why. Comparing MT to flashlight.

Pro
-Long range shadow inversion on full screen, compared to short range flashlight.
-Detection of moving objects in 360 degrees wtihout any active player work. Even camo gets detected.
-Immunity to flashbangs
-Spy may not even know if he's been detected by MT, especially so if his back is turned.
-Doesn't announce your presence in advance to the spy.
-Spy has no indication he's been detected by MT.

Con
-can't see unmoving or creeping spy in total darkness.

All in all, there isn't much reason to use the flashlight, except in rare circumstances. I guess I've always felt MT should be a supplemental vision like EMF for special cases.

Now, I don't support any of these obscure rat ideas or things that will require a great deal of coding. This project has enough things to code just getting CT to work right. It's much easier to just apply conventional nerfs instead of getting elaborate.

As I see it, MT needs some (but not all) of the following nerfs.

-No shadow inversion
-Spy is allowed to move at normal crawl if merc is not facing his direction.
-Spy at long range can move faster.
-Maximum visual range.
-Indicator on merc's back to reveal he is in MT.
-Indicator for spy to indicate he's been placed in an MT box.
-Some kind of drawback, like turning off the sound detector.
-Noise emanating from merc, to alert spy that the merc is in MT, A way to announce the merc is coming.
-PT style static sound to screw up merc's mundane hearing.

[Spekkio]

Why does everyone want to nerf MT into oblivion? Like I said, with the exception of a few ill-conceived map designs, MT isn't that big of a deal.

that's exactly why i think about stuff like rats. mt whoring is no real problem in most areas, but we need a solution for maps like deftech, polar etc (ok they'r crap anyway) and some big rooms like digger, main, etc. but if the spy could move a little bit faster in the slow-mode, and gets a slow-climb move, things might be balanced.

The solution is to not make shitty maps.

[InvisibleMan999]

The solution is to not make shitty maps.

Well, lots of maps tend to be flawed in that regard. I mean, MT is so good, I pretty much use it on everything. It spots spies in factory, spots spies through grated ceilings, like the top of showroom in river mall or above the blue tank room in Aqua. Will spot spies quite far away, so that you can wander about factory just waiting for them to ping the MT.

The problem is that the supposed counter to MT, standing still or moving slowly, doesn't really work because your sight is still fine in MT. So if you don't move, it won't stop the merc from just seeing you and shooting you down. You can't exactly move to cover either because the motion itself puts the big box of doom around you. Your only real option is to shoot the merc and try to run or aggro. In any case, you're forced to reveal your presence, making it a no-win situation for a stealth spy. Camo isn't even a big deal because you can flick from EMF to MT and back with zero activation time (unlike turning on MT or EMF from normal).

I so rarely use normal vision. Mostly for me, it's MT and EMF cycling and that's it. Occasionally if I want to check a deep shadow I may flashlight it for a second, but that's rather rare. Its a safe bet that if I'm in normal vision, it's because a spy SS or chaffed me. As it is now, I really don't see any advantage to using normal vision.

[Spekkio]

The counter to MT is to shock the merc in the head (which I think there should be some indication if you do). Regardless, if the map is designed well then there will be routes where you don't have to go through the merc. For example, in River Mall you don't have to take that grated ceiling up to offices...you could leave through the lower corridor.

[Valserp]

-No shadow inversion
-Spy is allowed to move at normal crawl if merc is not facing his direction.
-Spy at long range can move faster.
-Maximum visual range.
-Indicator on merc's back to reveal he is in MT.
-Indicator for spy to indicate he's been placed in an MT box.
-Some kind of drawback, like turning off the sound detector.
-Noise emanating from merc, to alert spy that the merc is in MT, A way to announce the merc is coming.
-PT style static sound to screw up merc's mundane hearing.

Some of those are just too much. Let me elaborate.
If a spy at long range is allowed to move faster, then there is no reason to add the "spy behind merc is allowed to move faster".
Indicator informing a spy that they have been detected - that's a no no. Let's not spoonfeed them with everything, huh? The merc's visor is glowing red, you've been moving fast - you are detected. The merc's behaviour is usually enough indication.
With all the other nerfs, removing the sound detector is just OTT.
Noise from the merc? Come on... the heavy footsteps are enough anyway.

[Spekkio]

I'd also like to add that if you fix the flashlight not working with sniper, as it did in PT, you'd see a lot more flashlight use.

[Gawain]

maybe spies with camo should be allowed to move more quickly at lower ranges than spies without?

[Gui Brazil]

maybe spies with camo should be allowed to move more quickly at lower ranges than spies without?

Why?

That is contradictory to the whole point of camo. It'll make you almost invisible but you can't move fast or else it'll stop working.

Why don't we simply make it permanent and you can run around with it whenever you want without it stop working. And even better, while at it, let's make it that EMF DOESN'T DETECT IT!!!!1

[Gawain]

It'll make you almost invisible

fsure
i'm not talking about running mindlessly around, but atm camo is pretty useless as one merc even without camnet can, for example, cover main hall (factory) just by standing in the middle and switching mt on. sorry, but that's ridiculous if there's no counter to something such primitive than not being in his line of view. maybe "-Spy at long range can move faster" will fix this