How do you think PS would play if the spy had a pistol?

[tigaer]

This is in no way shape or form the thoughts of the development team, these are all my thoughts and my thoughts only. This is not in our current plans for PS. This is simply for discussion.

Wanted something to discuss, so I thought I'd try this first.

Could giving the spies a 12 shot, close-range pistol actually be fun?

You'd of course have to limit their ammo, and make sure it's inaccurate at anything other than short range similar to the pistol in SCCT single player. Say if the spies could take 10 bullet before dying, the mercenaries should be able to take 15. The mercenary should always win in a fair 1v1 battle, so the goal for the spy is to use stealth to take out his enemies. It could bring up some pretty interesting double-teaming tactics for spies as well, since 2 spies could take out a mercenary in half the time if they team shoot.

By limiting the spies ammo and accuracy, it begins to form a sense of balance between the characters. The mercenaries still have health packs, eachother for healing, and possibly even 'health kits' as a gadget option, and since mercenaries would win 9/10 in a fair 1v1 battle, you can begin to see some balance. This is where the spies must rely on teamwork, speed and stealth if they want to eliminate the other players. If the spies were still too powerful, then why not take off their suppressors? That way, when a spy fires a shot he appears on the mercenaries radar for a second, successfully balancing a spy that sits back and fires from a distance or from the shadows, slowly draining the mercenaries health bit by bit. Another solution would be upping the damage of the mercenaries rifle.

To say that these two things can't be balanced is a little naive, since both the mercenaries and spies weapon damage properties could be edited until a proper balance is found.

This could be an exciting new way to play PS, along with the classic way. What if we went as far as giving the spy the option for either the tazer, or the pistol? The difference would be that the tazer would allow the player to launch grenades, while the pistol would only allow the player to throw them short distances. Another noteworthy differences could be that the pistol, when drawn emits a blue light in shadows, so the player would have to be aware of the mercenaries FOV when lining up a shot, or even using the heart beat sensor. The pistol also had limited ammo, and limited accuracy at mid to long range. This could bring up some interesting scenarios where one spy brings the pistol, and the other brings the tazer, creating a sort of offense-defense type teamwork setup.

To bring balance to this, after a mercenary is tazed or put to sleep he cannot he damaged by a pistol, similar to mercenaries being invincible to jump attacks after being tazed or knocked down. Would giving the spies a low-ammo pistol be detrimental to gameplay, or could it be something positive if done correctly?

How do you think it would change the game?

I'm a little tired of typing right now, so I'll come back in a few hours and would love to start a discussion on this, so post your thoughts.

[AgentX_003]

as a seperate mode I guess it would be fine, however I believe I can speak for alot of people here and
that being said, people don't want deathmatch, it what be the death of this game because much like deathmatch , there are people out there who play nothing but deathmatch.

I hate to rehash old flames here but alot of vets would want just the classic game mode and nothing else.

I do think tho it could be tested as a temporary mode similar to like how Valve has mutations every week.

Plus if you had a voting system like that, to see if  the people like it or not then , it could be taken away and if people did then it could stay as a permanant mode.

[Cronky]

I read over this topic: http://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/index.php/topic,1247.0.html earlier today which ties in with this.

The more I think about it, the more I like it.

Without putting too much thought into balance I'm thinking the Mercs would take less damage from said pistol than the Spies from any firearm. Mercs have body armor/helmets after all... Spies COULD have EXACTLY enough bullets to kill a Merc if he is at full health and you hit every bullet in the head (little chance at this happening). What this does is keeps the reliance on neck breaks and jumps if you're going for kills.

Mercs... for whatever reason in this whole situation are immune to damage while knocked out. GAME LOGIC!!!

What it could also do that differs from the SS gun (which would be an option to pick) is the pistol has that OCP(?) thing that was in co-op CT. Where it disables stuff by holding down on it, re-ups immediately after it's released. Doing this doesn't give a disabled warning to Mercs. So teamwork is a must if it is to be used for anything usefully. Two pistol users could effectively sneak around a map without setting off detectors. You DO have the option to shoot certain things (unguarded lights, cams, mines etc) for a permanent disable, but it also gives off a warning. Among all these, shooting also gives off a ping on the Sound Detector.

Spies should also have to reload the gun at ammo crates. Say they have 12 bullets. Once you're out... you're out. You must go to an ammo crate to reload the gun and have more use than just temporarily disabling something (in other words. No PERSONAL use to you. Since you can't disable stuff AND get past what you would be disabling).

That's all I'm typing for now.

EDIT: This is of course adding with the options you also brought up above tigaer. Love the same, yet different style of gameplay. (Accomplish the same goal in a different way)

[Chaosdarkmage]

I agree with Agent. It's a good idea for an alternate mode but not for the main game. A lot of maps should be designed to separate mercs, so if spys had pistols they would simply double team one merc, killing him pretty easily. If you limit the gun so that it's hard to do even that then players would never use it, making all the design and implementation a waste.

[Cronky]

I agree with Agent. It's a good idea for an alternate mode but not for the main game. A lot of maps should be designed to separate mercs, so if spys had pistols they would simply double team one merc, killing him pretty easily. If you limit the gun so that it's hard to do even that then players would never use it, making all the design and implementation a waste.

The problem I think you two are having with the idea is that you're assuming that it's use is to KILL. While yes, logic would point the pistol at the Merc... if they were to make it so it's only SO effective against Mercs, but has a difference in usability with objects on the map, then waste becomes opportunity.

Pretend that if, even with 2 spies wielding pistols, that they had little chance of killing even one Merc. The spies aren't holding 2 assault rifles with unlimited ammo, after all. They would both run out of ammo quickly. On the other hand it could provide permanent disables of SOME security systems, or at the very least a longer duration of disabled-ness when compared to the sticky shocker.

It's an option that works on the whole "Limited, but more power" concept. While the SS is the "Weaker, but unlimited".

[AgentX_003]

interms of balance tigaer , I mean if you really wanted to balance it out without  doing it the way your talking about , Why don't you make the spies weaker than the mercs like in DA , minus the crappy presence detector.

Ultimately I think what needs to be done is sticking to the core game play that was said years ago
along with updates and what have you. It would be what versus should be, a cat and mouse game.

the spies being hte mice scurrying to get thier objectives and quietly , and the mercs being the cats on the hunt =)

[Farley4Fan]

Actually, I don't know if this has been said or not, why not do this strictly for deathmatch?  In order to balance it out and make it a decent game mode for once, maybe give spies a silenced pistol.  Things like ammo/damage can be discussed during testing.  Make health packs plentiful so that spies can't shoot a merc once, run away, come back, finish the job, rinse/repeat.  They would have to get into a lengthy firefight or get a few consecutive (head)shots on a merc to kill him.

[AgentX_003]

Alright so I stand not correct upon what I originally said, Deathmatch didn't really kill the gaming community. It was lack of support / tutorials that ,killed it.

But as i said before focus more on the development of what was originally intended , then things will be aight

[tigaer]

Alright so I stand not correct upon what I originally said, Deathmatch didn't really kill the gaming community. It was lack of support / tutorials that ,killed it.

But as i said before focus more on the development of what was originally intended , then things will be aight

This is in no way shape or form the thoughts of the development team, these are all my thoughts and my thoughts only. This is not in our current plans for PS. This is simply for discussion.

I'm just brainstorming ideas, and I thought that this was an idea with a lot of potential for discussion. And yes, I agree with most of the things that have been posted here. Giving the player the option to make a custom gametype of neutralization where spies have weapons would be pretty sweet in my opinion, more freedom to the players.

My comment about mercenaries taking 15 bullets was due to the spies only having 12 per clip, so a spy cannot kill a mercenary with full health in 1 clip, and he should be dead by the time he reloads if the mercenary is decent at the game.

Another thing I mentioned was not giving the spies a silencer, so that when they shoot they're sacrificing their position for firepower, as when they shoot they show up on radar for a second, and cause a sound ping; this limits spies sitting back and slowly draining a mercenaries health from a distance, or from the shadows, suggesting that the pistol shouldn't be used for specifically killing.

I like the idea of giving spies maybe one extra clip, then requiring them to resupply at the mercenaries ammo crates. This creates yet another risk to using this weapon, successfully telling players that you aren't supposed to run and gun just because you have a pistol.

[Cronky]

...I still think it could be acceptable in Story mode if made right.

Though I do like the deathmatch-only deal. Gives unique-ness to the mode without throwing in things (other objectives) that take away from the single mindedness of what a DEATHmatch is supposed to be.

[tigaer]

...I still think it could be acceptable in Story mode if made right.

Though I do like the deathmatch-only deal. Gives unique-ness to the mode without throwing in things (other objectives) that take away from the single mindedness of what a DEATHmatch is supposed to be.

I do as well. Having the ability to select the tazer instead of the pistol gives old school players a choice between play styles, while opening up a huge window for new strategies.

[Cronky]

Yeah, and (in concept) all it would take is to add the pros and cons that you've already laid out (perhaps some of mine also ;)).

It keeps the integrity of the old, while giving some new to those that have already played the old to death.


::EDIT::

Also, to recap what was in that thread I posted in my first reply. Stone's idea of a sector based game mode that gradually gives Spies more and more to work against, while upgrading Merc gadgets (Mercs starting with little in terms of weaponry/gadgets. Ending with full arsenal) as the spies advance further and further.

Sounds pretty one sided when read like I have above, but it seemed pretty well put together.

[Wh1tE_Dw4rF]

Personally I rather see a spy carrying a combat knife with him so he gets more dangerously up close. Even if you made a gun take a hit on accuracy it still is a huge RNG factor stuck to it that will either safe or break whatever the spy would be doing. What I'm trying to say it, for such a pistol to exist it would be far too unreliable to use properly. It's unusable at long(-er) range and somewhat cheap, maybe even unnessecary, to use up close.

From a realistic POV any spy should have a knife with him. For both general protection and as it's a multifunction tool to for example slit one's throat, cut a electricity wire, break open a lock.

Call me biased but I really can't find a plausible reason why someone such as a spy would not take a simple knife with him.

[DreadStunLock]

Call me biased but I really can't find a plausible reason why someone such as a spy would not take a simple knife with him.

Call me biased but I really can't find a plausible reason why someone such as a spy would not bring a silenced pistol with him, to take the mercenary out, and drag his body with him to leave no evidence?

Anyway, I still can't see the way it would ever work for a spy to bring a gun, that would take a full clip to the head to kill him, I mean what is the point? I just really don't see anything useful in that? Might as well let Tazers do damage for a limited clip.

[Cronky]

Call me biased but I really can't find a plausible reason why someone such as a spy would not take a simple knife with him.

Anyway, I still can't see the way it would ever work for a spy to bring a gun, that would take a full clip to the head to kill him, I mean what is the point? I just really don't see anything useful in that? Might as well let Tazers do damage for a limited clip.

(All this is how I envision it, and also thinking it would be in more than Deathmatch. Cause I likez it)

It's supposed to "Work" because the gun isn't supposed to be used to kill a Merc. A team of two Spies could put pressure on a Merc via chipping away at his health, but would still lose if just trying to aggro him with a gun.

It's main use would be a limited, but more powerful disable of securities when compared to the SS. Both being unlimited, but to harness the pistols advantage in that area, after expending all your shots, you must reload at a ammo crate.

-The low accuracy is so as a spy you can't just sit at any ammo crate and shoot Mercs from across the map. I assume there would be a gameplay mechanic that increased accuracy as long as you stood still. Thus while using Stealth with it, you COULD shoot thing further away.
(Look, in contrast at the SS gun which has near perfect aim as long as you can get the laser on whatever you want to hit)

-The damage decrease can be supported by "game logic" because the Merc is wearing Armor. The Spy on the other hand is effectively running around in underarmor with glow-y lights. It's also to keep from 2 spies just running up on a Merc and just gunning him down.
(Look at the SS that doesn't do any damage, ever)

-Keep in mind this gun is also only a pistol, it's rate of fire would probably be pretty slow when put in comparison of any of the Merc guns. In the time it takes for a Spy to get 12 rapid fire shots off (1 clip), the Merc could get around the same quantity (1 clip (but many more bullets)) with any of their guns (Minus the shotgun, but damage would balance out to way more). At this point the Spy would be out of ammo until either death, or they hit an ammo crate. With no way to disable securities such as Spy Traps/Mines without doing it the manual way.
(Look at the SS having limited shots in rapid succession, but has infinite ammo.)

That, among the list of other possible changes that could be implemented could make an alternative to the SS gun. Not just a (minor-ly) lethal way to play Spy.