Post Ideas for appearance of vision modes.

[B1nArY_001]

If I'm picturing your scenario correctly, that would even work on normal vision.

If you're saying that the spy can hide on the other side of the door where he'd normally hide, then so what? Don't walk around in MT 100% of the time. Nevertheless, I'd imagine that a merc at point blank would be able to see the spy no matter what vision he's using.

My point is, the spy could be standing out by the pallets of dry wall, making no attempt to hide himself and placing himself in your fov as you exit the doors and if you were in MT he would be invisible. Completely.

You are more interested in arguing than understanding what I am saying and I know of no other way to explain it to you without drawing a picture for you so as I'm sure everyone else can use a little imagination and clearly see what I'm saying. I'm just going to drop it.

Edit: I am more than happy to discuss your point of view but you haven't provided any real reasons on why and how it would be benificial to balance.

[frvge]

I agree with Binary. A stationary spy should be a LITTLE bit visible. Maybe only a black outline, so that when he's in the dark, he's still invisible, while against a bright backdrop or a well-lit area, he's VAGUELY visible.

[InvisibleMan999]

Ok. No problem - Museum, you are in the hall outside the elevator spawn, a spy runs through the double doors out towards cafe so you switch to MT so you can see which way he is going as he moves faster and will round the corner out of your LOS. He veers off towards the right dropping smoke imparing your vision so you stay in MT to make sure you can catch him if he doubles back around the corner to take the vent back into the merc spawn area. His partner has just arrived and is standing off to the side of the doors waiting to help. He has stopped for just a moment to asses the situation, he's not moving and you are in MT trying to track the other spy who is running. You exit the doors running right past him because he is completely invisible, he grabs you.

Sounds like this may just be another skill based trick people will use, and I'm not really against it.

If people get good at fooling MT that way, then good mercs will just have to learn to expect it and adapt their tactics.

[Spekkio]

Binary,

You must've missed the line where I said "I'd imagine that you'd be able to see a spy from pt. blank no matter what vision you're using."

Still, I don't think detecting a "ghost" in MT should be nearly as easy to do it in EMF because EMF doesn't have a warning when a spy is behind you, and it certainly should not depend on shadows AT ALL. It should only depend on motion. That is it. Once it starts depending on shadows, you're getting into the same shit that we have now, and this discussion becomes pointless. That's not to say that objects in MT shouldn't be shaded; you do need to have depth perception, and the illusion of 3-D gets created in part by shadows. If you are concerned about looking for stationary spies, use normal vision. It exists for a reason.

[kronf]

This topic went far off last couple pages and since it is called "ideas for appearance of visions modes." here are the ideas for visions modes, except our beloved MT:
Thermal vision - make it as close to ct one as possible, it worked really good.
Night vision - make it pt like, gets blurry, when you look far and have static noise.
EMF - keep it as it is except ghost shouldn't be seen through ceiling. Cause sitting in the middle of inside cafe ceiling not moving and not using any visions and getting hs'ed by a merc who just randomly entered the room and flipped emf on, seems a little wrong.
Thats all. Discuss.

[Daybreak]

I agree with kronf.
I also agree with spekkio. Binary I understand your scenario, however, a merc chasing a spy would also probably have lazer on just in case. One sweep of the lazer and bam you find the standing spy in the middle of the room.
I think a spy who is motionless should not show up. A spy moving should. There for we need levels of appearance like Mr.Mic suggested with the fades.

running, rolling, jumping, falling, = warning sounds, full colour, full view
walking, crouch at normal speed, climbing = warning sounds, half colour or visible
crouch at slow speed = ghost
not moving = invisible.

adding cloak raises the lowers the visibilty. So with cloak:
running, rolling, jumping, falling, = warning sounds, full colour, full view
walking, crouch at normal speed, climbing = ghost
crouch at slow speed = invisible
not moving = invisible

When I first bought the game I thought MT was going to be like exactly that. So if I didn't move, i won't be seen. Because that's what the name implies. Of course as soon as I found out that wasn't the case, of course, LAME was the first word i said. Right after " OGM!! WTF!! How did you see me?!" I still say that, to EMF ghosting bastards and MT whores has changed it a little "WTF!! I guess the corner wasn't dark enough!"

I think the balance would be just fine with the invisibilty. Here's an example of Binary's scenario now.

I burst out from Monolith and head to cafe. Binary coming from Exhibition sees me making a break for the doors. I get through the doors and throw smoke and run towards the outside cafe hack. Running by Spekkio who's on his way to exhibition. Quick thinking Spekkio cloaks. Binary in MT is running after me and tracks me using the box. Binary blindly chasses after me, completely ignoring Spekkio who's cloaked standing in the middle of the room. Spekkio, after shitting his pants when Binary runs by, grabs Binary and breaks his neck.

Again, this could have been prevented by 1. using your lazer or 2. switching visions. The risk is too high and not usually worth it.

This is why i think a spy should be invisible in MT when not moving and a spy should be completely cloaked invisible when not moving as well.

A lot of people don't like the sound of cloaking. If we keep it, it would balance the invisibilty factor.

Now then, I was hoping to discuss an Xray vision for spies instead of heat vision. It'd be similar but a refreshing change in visiuals.

[InvisibleMan999]

If you are concerned about looking for stationary spies, use normal vision. It exists for a reason.

Yup. If spies are abusing a merc by just standing still in well lit areas and then grabbing them, then they're too reliant on MT.

Sitting in a well lit area is risky. You're gambling the guy is going to have MT on. If he doesn't you're SoL. I'm not going to cry tears for mercs who get waylaid by this tactic because they were too lazy to ever turn off MT.

[Overstatement]

Aren't you guys just proving Binary's point by saying MT is weak?

I thought (based on observations, not the designer's intentions) MT's main use is to increase situational awareness coverage (360 detection) at the cost of reduced awareness of your 45 degree FOV (on normal postrender). If you can't do that while moving because spies are easily invisible, what's the point?

Aggro (and lots of other people) teams will bring chaff to counter MT when aggroing. And to quote Spekkio again:

I can see spies moving in front of my face just fine, thankyouverymuch.

[goodkebab]

This thread has become a real disapointment.  Instead of people posting creative ideas it has devolved to a skill of debate.  Instead of new ideas,  we get criticisms.  Instead of posting visual examples from other games for a new look,  more often people are saying what they dont like of the only 2 suggestions we have.

Basically,  in typical forum fashion,  it has become an of example of bitching about somebodies idea not matching what you want instead introducing a new idea or solution.

Frankly,  this is why a most game developers dont bother listening to the needs of the gamers.  In a democratic decision process,  it is to be expected that decisions cannot be made because of so many contrasting opinions.

You can save that process for the next presidential election.  I am going to keep future decisions to the dev forums.   

[Overstatement]

I made a view.

Anyway, my idea...

And if the need be, to solve the nightvision problem, we could incorperate the distance of stuff from the merc into the shader. Blend stuff of like distances and contrast stuff of unlike distances. So a spy next to a wall will be blended together while a spy out in the corridor will contrast with the wall that's far away.

things I want to put out there is the change in MT where we use the distance of the surfaces from the player in the calcuations. So that surfaces that are close together appear blended (regardless of lighting) and surfaces that are far part are contrasted.

And Mr.Mic provided a rough idea of how it would look (Thanks!)

I did a mock up of what I imagine your version of MT would look like.



The spies are circled for ease of viewing.

But most of us don't have 3d software to visualize stuff like this.

Besides, you ordered us to:

Post your idea and prepare to get flamed.

[Kurbutti]

The way it's going to look is determined by the way it's going to work. It has to work, so the debate is exactly about wheter or not some idea is viable. You just can't escape this, regardless of where some certain lot of people are getting their own points across.

[MR.Mic]

Aren't you guys just proving Binary's point by saying MT is weak?

It's not weak, because ultimately, you're going to have to move to get where you're going.
Unless wasting 4 minutes in the same spot seems like a good idea (provided that the merc never switches away from MT in that time).

[Gawain]

it would be clever (if not necessary) to make someone skilled (especially in stealth) responsible for balance questions. most people on the dev team are clearly unqualified for this. good players who come to my mind are spekkio, mr. mic, kronf, seefoo (random order, i'm not humblegay). i think this is really important. discuss...

edit: moved to new thread

[Westfall]

This thread has become a real disapointment.  Instead of people posting creative ideas it has devolved to a skill of debate.  Instead of new ideas,  we get criticisms.  Instead of posting visual examples from other games for a new look,  more often people are saying what they dont like of the only 2 suggestions we have.

Basically,  in typical forum fashion,  it has become an of example of bitching about somebodies idea not matching what you want instead introducing a new idea or solution.

Frankly,  this is why a most game developers dont bother listening to the needs of the gamers.  In a democratic decision process,  it is to be expected that decisions cannot be made because of so many contrasting opinions.

You can save that process for the next presidential election.  I am going to keep future decisions to the dev forums.   

im only here to offer opinions on things. I can't make any pictures and shit like the other guys. It's apparent that the motion tracking isn't going to stray far from the MT of Chaos Theory in terms of looks. It isn't wise to bring in a new look because well, look at how DA's MT was. No one liked it. So the 2 examples are the only things I have to base my opinions on. Daybreak had the best though process about the MT and how to go about it. You probably don't listen to some of us anyways, so do what you gotta do to make this game a success. At the same time, now you can't ask us questions and you might as well shut down the forums if you are just leaving decisions to your "dev team"

[Gawain]

affirmative.
if you want me to state my view again: do it mr.mic's way, with a red hexagonal pattern and static distortion so that it looks similar to ct, and give camo the influence daybreak summed up.