new anti aggro move for mercs

[InvisibleMan999]

invisible, do you really think that making ph nades that awesome that a significant number of people would trade off frags for them would be good for the balance?

Yeah, I really do. Assuming the use of ph nades was fun in itself. If they're too good and block an objective entirely, that would detract from gameplay, if on the other hand they were a sort of area spytrap that wears out faster, they might work well.

All gadgets should have some role to play.

it's really hard to compare gadgets good in totally different tasks...

Yeah, some gadgets will be good for certain playstyles and others not so much. Flash for instance are great for an aggro spy and almost useless for everyone else. And that's okay. So long as they fill a role in some style.

But we can't be afraid of creating new gadgets (or upgrading old ones) that really push the envelope of gadget power. Right now, the merc gadgets are pretty damn good (at least the core ones anyway), and anything new we create has to be that good. If there's no reason you may take the new gadget over frags or mines, then it's just not worth it.

About the only thing we do have to watch out for is how to rank gadgets. Some people for instance think that camnet is weak simply because a lot of people don't take it, while camnet is actually just an expert gadget that is very powerful but rarely used because it requires a lot of skill to master.

But it's not like frags. The main point of incendiary nades are to mark your opponent for EMF.

Yeah it is. It's a grenade you fire out of your gun. Only instead of killing the spy, it just tags him. That's a frag, but weaker. I can either fire a grenade that delivers a lethal attack or fire a grenade that delivers a non-lethal attack. Pretty much, that means that by definition the non-lethal one is a less useful gadget.

Gadgets need to be classified by the delivery system, not by the effect. If I could have delivered a lethal grenade but instead delivered a non-lethal one, the non-lethal one needs some benefit to make it worthwhile. Similarly, spy traps have this same relationship with mines. Mines are lethal and thus people take them over traps which are non-lethal. There are rare instance you may want to take traps, such as a spot near a medkit where you need a poison mine to cover (traps are superior here), but otherwise mines are better because they're lethal.

[Spekkio]

Yeah it is. It's a grenade you fire out of your gun. Only instead of killing the spy, it just tags him. That's a frag, but weaker. I can either fire a grenade that delivers a lethal attack or fire a grenade that delivers a non-lethal attack. Pretty much, that means that by definition the non-lethal one is a less useful gadget.

So are snares and spy bullets the same gadget, since they are both fired from the spy's gun? Or chaff and smoke are the same gadget? That is absurd. Two gadgets can fire in a similar manner yet have two entirely different functions.

[Gawain]

phosphour highlights the spy in normal vision and in emf and allows you to follow his footprints pretty far. the big advantage to spytraps is that you can cover an area in ph. dust (even pretty quickly) so you don't need a bottle neck or edge, and there is no way the spy can get through it without being marked (compare chaff / ss at traps/mines / jumping/rolling over/through them). with long enough timers and a large radius it could prove balanced without any further changes. if you still think it needs a second function / a buff, let it drug the spy so that he can't SS you quickly and let it do some damage per time so that you could hinder a wounded spy from further hacking or hiding in a room.

[InvisibleMan999]

So are snares and spy bullets the same gadget, since they are both fired from the spy's gun? Or chaff and smoke are the same gadget? That is absurd. Two gadgets can fire in a similar manner yet have two entirely different functions.

That's true, but that's because these are indirect fire gadgets. You aren't firing them at the merc.

When you're talking about a grenade that has to hit the spy, or a spytrap/mine that both stretch a laser across a space and do something when that laser is broken, the lethal one is going to be better. When your choice is either to kill the spy or tag the spy for finding later, killing the spy is always going to be better.

I mean, phosphors don't even allow you to track the spy very well to be honest. Yeah you can see him on EMF and he leaves a few footprints, but I mean, so what? It's pretty easy to see a spy that's out in the open anyway. At the very least it should produce some reticule pings so you can track him. The gas cloud itself also needs to last a while, so it can effectively block off a route for a decent duration. 30 second gas cloud plus a reticule ping would work I think.

[Gawain]

no to reticule ping. and no, you dont have to hit the spy with the nade. just throw them into areas the spy would normally want to run into (eg objectives, rooms to hide, stairways etc). frags are not that strong as you think, because most times a good player can totally avoid them.

[InvisibleMan999]

no to reticule ping. and no, you dont have to hit the spy with the nade. just throw them into areas the spy would normally want to run into (eg objectives, rooms to hide, stairways etc). frags are not that strong as you think, because most times a good player can totally avoid them.

Well honestly, we know how good phosphurs were in PT. We all played with them. They sucked. Adding a little damage over time effect to the gas cloud isn't going to change anything.

Phosphurs are something that we really need to rethink conceptually.

What style are they supposed to counter? What role do they play? What maps would it be good in?

Thus far out of the PT style phosphor with damage over time, I really haven't heard any great answers to these questions. Lets remember that in PT, the best thing people used phosphors for is just a dummy grenade to scare the spy. That alone pretty much should tell us how effective they were and that they probably need a complete conceptual rethinking.

The idea of a lingering cloud of "stuff" seems to lend itself well to stopping a rush strategy, so I think it'd be nice if phosphors made it difficult to rush objectives. Which is why I say perhaps have it slow down a spy some and give off some reticule pings for someone dumb enough to charge the gas cloud. Something like that would be nice on maps like museum or river mall where you've got a small choke point that spies can rush to try to get into the back of the map. A lingering gas cloud would be nice to clog that choke point up a bit and force the spies to be a little slower in their approach.

[Cyntrox]

But what are the spies supposed to do with it? Just wait for it to go away? That'd slow down gameplay a lot...

[Gawain]

ph. nades don't have to compete with frags, they have to compete with spy traps and camnet.
just imagine digger objective (factory) is hacked and you throw
a) a frag nade: a bad spy will be dead, a good spy will stop hacking and can leave in 2 directions or continue hacking some seconds later with still enough chances to escape
b) a phorphorous nade: a bad spy will continue hacking but will be killed by you anyways. a good spy probably get's out of the dust, but he can only leave in the direction he avoided the fake frag and if he continues hacking, he can hack only 2 more seconds assumed that he got full hp and after that he is a glowing green spot in the dark that leave bright green footsteps so that he got no chance at all to hide anywhere (basically like spytrap without radar but glowing in normal vision).

[InvisibleMan999]

ph. nades don't have to compete with frags, they have to compete with spy traps and camnet.
just imagine digger objective (factory) is hacked and you throw
a) a frag nade: a bad spy will be dead, a good spy will stop hacking and can leave in 2 directions or continue hacking some seconds later with still enough chances to escape
b) a phorphorous nade: a bad spy will continue hacking but will be killed by you anyways. a good spy probably get's out of the dust, but he can only leave in the direction he avoided the fake frag and if he continues hacking, he can hack only 2 more seconds assumed that he got full hp and after that he is a glowing green spot in the dark that leave bright green footsteps so that he got no chance at all to hide anywhere (basically like spytrap without radar but glowing in normal vision).

Well, I still don't think it competes with spy traps and camnet, simply because spytraps and camnet are things that have the advantage of being used while the merc isn't there. That's their whole appeal. Tagging a spy in front of your face probably isn't a huge deal, and spytraps are actually better at tracking and following a spy than a phosphor would be.

The digger example sounds decent, though I'm still not sure anybody would bother taking phosphors. I can't really get away from how ineffective they were in PT, and I'm really not sure how the damage over time effect will make them any more effective.

Also on a side note, it's kind of hard to avoid frags without EAX. From playing the Xbox version with standard sound, you generally don't always hear frags being lauched and if the merc arcs it right, so you don't get to hear a frag bounce. It tends to make maps like Steel squat almost impossible for spies because you don't get any sound to warn you the frag is en route until it's too late. Though really PS should probably make frags more audible on normal sound, since that part of xbox play sucked.

The real question is how long you wanted the phosphur dust to remain on the spy I guess. In PT it seemed to wear off far too quickly to actually make it very effective.

[Spekkio]

That's true, but that's because these are indirect fire gadgets. You aren't firing them at the merc.

This is a load of shit. You never fire smoke/chaff/flash at a merc? They all have very different functions, even though they all shoot the same way.

Just say it...you are wrong when you say that two gadgets have the same function simply because they fire in the same way.

[InvisibleMan999]

This is a load of shit. You never fire smoke/chaff/flash at a merc? They all have very different functions, even though they all shoot the same way.

Just say it...you are wrong when you say that two gadgets have the same function simply because they fire in the same way.

It's not totally about function, it's about the delivery system for comparison.

You really can't compare a gadget like camnet against something like spytraps on any level besides actual playtesting, because there's no theoretical cross-over there. You use camnet in a completely different way than you use spytraps or mines, thus camnet may be good in some places and bad in others.   

However, when you talk about somtehing like smoke vs. chaff or frag vs. phosphur that's a totally reasonable argument, because they're interchangeable. What I mean is, you can fire a smoke *or* a flash at a merc, or a phosphur or a frag. Thus the two have to be reasonably as good.

When the consequence of one of those is death, then it is automatically superior to the other. Just like flash/smoke would be pointless if a spy could fire a frag grenade. Why? Because if you could blind a merc, you could just as easily have killed him. Do you see what I'm getting at?

The same runs true of spy traps vs mines. You run a laser somewhere. One laser kills the spy who crosses it, the other laser just tags him so you can find him and try to kill him yourself. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure which one of those are better.

And yeah it extends to frags vs phosphor. The instantaneous effect of a phosphur detonation is objectively inferior to a frag detonation, because the frag kills the spy, and that's the best possible result you can get out of a gadget. So once one of the gadgets kills the spy, the comparison is immediately over, and the best gadget is the one that kills.

[Spekkio]

The thing is, you're ignoring a bunch of other factors. If we go back to your "laser" analogy, both laser mines and spy traps serve the same function. Now, here's the thing: if the spy trips a spy trap, he's tagged no matter what. If he trips a laser mine, he's only killed if he's close enough to the blast radius. Death can be avoided by diving and maneuvering around walls, whereas the trap hits you absolutely.

Likewise, a spy hit by a phospho grenade is lit up no matter what. A frag, even if it hits the spy, might not kill him. Furthermore, the explosion for frags is instant, while phospho grenades linger around. Not only do you have to avoid the initial explosion, but you need to steer clear of the gas for the next (15 was it?) seconds. Of course if the phospho nades did damage, they would have to do FF so that mercs can't just spam them around as an anti-aggro measure.

But I digress. That is what makes them have entirely different functions .You said that they must have the same function because they have the same firing mechanism. Your last post tried to change that point because you are wrong. This is clearly false as demonstrated by my snare/bullet and smoke/chaff/flash examples. Yes, the delivery of smoke/chaff/flash is the same, but you use them for different purposes. Smoke is meant to slow down the merc, flash will blind him, and chaff will disable visions, sniping and reload.

Now, if you decide that phospho grenades aren't worth it after all that, then that is your decision as a gamer to make. That's why there are 7 other available pieces of equipment from which to choose.

[InvisibleMan999]

The thing is, you're ignoring a bunch of other factors. If we go back to your "laser" analogy, both laser mines and spy traps serve the same function. Now, here's the thing: if the spy trips a spy trap, he's tagged no matter what. If he trips a laser mine, he's only killed if he's close enough to the blast radius. Death can be avoided by diving and maneuvering around walls, whereas the trap hits you absolutely.

Right, which is why I tend to compare spytrap to poison mine as a better analogy. Here you've got two lasers which can stretch across a room or doorway. One laser tags the spy, the other gradually kills him. Both can be negated by presence of a partner. The only real drawback to the poison is that it can be repaired by a health pack. So the only real reason to use traps over poison is if the doorway is close to a health pack. 

Proxy versus presence detector is pretty much entirely a no brainer. Both pick up movement. One kills the spy for not moving, the other just reports "Spy detected".

But you already know this stuff. It's why you would never even consider replacing mines wtih traps. Because mines are better. You might take traps in addition to mines, but if you had the choice, you'd rather take 6 mines than mines and traps.

This is why we say traps are underpowered.

Likewise, a spy hit by a phospho grenade is lit up no matter what. A frag, even if it hits the spy, might not kill him. Furthermore, the explosion for frags is instant, while phospho grenades linger around. Not only do you have to avoid the initial explosion, but you need to steer clear of the gas for the next (15 was it?) seconds. Of course if the phospho nades did damage, they would have to do FF so that mercs can't just spam them around as an anti-aggro measure.

Yeah which is why I say the strength of the lingering cloud is the heart of phosphor grenades. The instantaneous effect obviously is in favor of the frag, so that lingering cloud has to be worth it. Really I hadn't thought of it as an anti-aggro measure. But really if we had no FF, that might actually work well to balance out the damage over time phosphor as a "get the hell away from me" gadget. I could see people taking that maybe.

But I digress. That is what makes them have entirely different functions .You said that they must have the same function because they have the same firing mechanism. Your last post tried to change that point because you are wrong. This is clearly false as demonstrated by my snare/bullet and smoke/chaff/flash examples. Yes, the delivery of smoke/chaff/flash is the same, but you use them for different purposes. Smoke is meant to slow down the merc, flash will blind him, and chaff will disable visions, sniping and reload.

Well none of those grenades kill the merc, so there's room for different purposes. The point that I was trying to make is that if you have one lethal attack, and one non-lethal one, the lethal one is automatically better. None of smoke/chaff/flash are lethal, thus they can be compared. They are of course, compared against each other, but there's no self-evident superiority, becuase none make the other redundant. A dead spy makes tracking redundant. Thus it's always better to simply kill him. Then you don't need to track him. 

Now, it's not as though delivery system is the only factor that goes into balancing a gadget, but it's the best starting point for comparison. It's much easier to compare smoke to chaff than flash to camo or snares.

Now, if you decide that phospho grenades aren't worth it after all that, then that is your decision as a gamer to make. That's why there are 7 other available pieces of equipment from which to choose.

You could say that about the CT tazer right now. Obviously some people won't want every gadget. The point is that we want to make gadgets so some people might take them. If nobody takes them because they suck so bad, then it's a failed gadget.

If you'd rather have 4 more frags than another pack of phosphurs then the phosphur is probably going to be a failed gadget. All I'm saying is that if you want the phosphur to be good, it has to be right up there in power with frags, mines, etc.

We can't be afraid to make new gadgets good so people will use them. I don't want this game to become like PT where you had 4 good gadgets and 2 crap gadgets. The idea of "lesser" gadgets needs to go out the window. Every gadget should be built with the intention that it's competing with frags and mines, because that's how good it has to be. If you have a new type of grenade and you can't imagine a map or playstyle that would take it over frags, then that grenade is underpowered.

[Gawain]

spytraps totally pwn poison mines in almost every situation (besides locking the doorway to storage on orph against solo rushes etc which is kinda lame since you can't chaff it); maybe this will change with 10s timer instead of 15.
a poison mine also doesn't tell you that it went off and where the spy went afterwards. maybe to his mate, to a medkit or to an objective?
presence detectors are more unobtrusive and afaik detect you even in slow motion while the beep.
with an increased number of simultaniously placable traps (5) it would be quite balanced.
the problem with mines is that on a lot of maps they are the only way to stop aggro spies from taze+rush (which can be countered by chaff going through walls -.-), but if we also remove mutual removal of the trap it could work for that part, too.

[InvisibleMan999]

a poison mine also doesn't tell you that it went off and where the spy went afterwards. maybe to his mate, to a medkit or to an objective?

Generally his running footsteps are going to tell you this. After getting poisoned you can't exactly proceed stealthfully to a medkit. You better run your ass off or you're going to die.

presence detectors are more unobtrusive and afaik detect you even in slow motion while the beep.
with an increased number of simultaniously placable traps (5) it would be quite balanced.

Yeah, more traps might fix the problem. I'm not saying spytraps are totally unsalvageable, just saying they need something extra to make them on par with mines.

the problem with mines is that on a lot of maps they are the only way to stop aggro spies from taze+rush (which can be countered by chaff going through walls -.-), but if we also remove mutual removal of the trap it could work for that part, too.

This would be a nice role the phosphur could play if its concept is a slow down grenade. So if spies start doing a rush, you drop a phosphur at the choke point to slow the spies down, preventing them from rolling or maybe just slowing their base movement. Right now, mines are the only anti-rush gadget. It'd be nice to have another gadget capable of doing anti-rush.