noise audibility

[Farley4Fan]

If mercs can hear camo then they will turn on EMF as soon as they hear it, resulting in a BIG nerf for camo.  I say nay to camo making a sound.

[Spekkio]

Uhh, that's the point.

[neth]

Well I don't think camo should have any effect on MT (assuming we use Mr.Mic's MT version). If you move you're detected. The faster you move, the more visible you are. Standing still makes you invisible. Adding camo to that will probably just confuse people.

I hope mt wont detect camo, why should 2 visions do it ? Its another thing to prevent people whoring MT

[Gawain]

Uhh, that's the point.

hard to keep a positive attitude with this ignorant folks, isn't it? ^^

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Uhh, that's the point.

hard to keep a positive attitude with this ignorant folks, isn't it? ^^

Who said that?

I hope mt wont detect camo, why should 2 visions do it ? Its another thing to prevent people whoring MT

I second that.

[InvisibleMan999]

And many people have said "but you can see spies just fine in normal vision when they use camo!!1" Only if you activate it in the direct light like a tard. If you activate it in shadows, even soft ones, you will be unseen. And there are plenty of random shadows throughout the maps in places that the mercs do not need to use the flashlight to navigate the map.

If the merc doesn't have his flashlight or laser on and walking through darkness, whose fault is that?

I do. The fact that you will ultimately have to traverse an open area where the merc can see you (ie, a "choke point") means that MT will remain OP  unless there is a way to quickly bypass it. Creeping is not a solution because a good merc is going to eventually alternate visions at some point, so spending 30 seconds out in the open is risky at best and suicide at worst. The way to remedy this is making camo not set off the detector. You could say another remedy is in fixing the maps, but that means almost every map is going to be exactly the same. And really, this seems to be the main function of camo: to cross areas of the map safely that the merc would ordinarilly see you. It's quite obvious that Ubi didn't intend camo to be a gadget activated up close to get necks. They just fucked up the sound so that you can't even use it for the former.

Well, I don't think that fast crouching should set off an MT box. It should make you visible to MT (using the Mr.Mic system), but only if the merc is actually looking at you. So you can always wait for him to turn his back and then fast crouch past a spot.

The MT box should only happen if the spy is running.

You should watch seefoo's spy vids. They illustrate plenty of spots where you will not see camo easily with normal vision. Again, see above: you can only detect this easily if the spy is in a well-lit area.

All I can say is that I've never had troulbe seeing camo on PC. On Xbox it's a bit more powerful because your screen resolution is lower, so you may miss some fine details. but on PC, it was pretty easy to spot. You just needed to use your flashlight along wtih normal vision.

If you're a merc who doesn't turn on his flashlight and a spy with camo surprises you, well that's your own fault for not using a tool which could have illuminated the camoed spy. I realize a lot of mercs like to keep their light off to not give away their presence, but that's a double edged sword.

Exactly. It means that you have to do your homework. You don't just see a merc around the corner and say "ok, camo on" and grab him while the meter has depleted 10%. You have to be careful with it.

Seeing a merc rounding the corner fast and going camo+back to the wall is a risky proposition at best. Most of the time it gets you killed. I'm not sure why you think it's some uber stealth move that absolutely must be stopped at all costs. Most of the time when a spy tries that, I just look and say "Oh look a stationary target." And then I shoot him dead. And no, I don't hear camo being activated. It's just pretty obvious to see a spy most of the time.

Really, if a merc is as close as I'm envisioning to be able to hear the activation sound of camo (or the gun drawing animation), the spy shouldn't be doing ANYTHING to give away his position unless he intends to actually fight the merc. I'm talking 3-4 meters here. Picture yourself in an environment where you have to sneak around, and someone is 3 meters away. You'd probably want to stay still for a while in your hiding spot until he walks away, which the merc usually will do considering there is more than 1 objective to cover.

Yeah, it kinda helps if you can cloak yourself while standing still so there's a chance he may not see you. I'm not sure why camo in any way makes it so you wouldn't want to stand still. While you're moving in camo, you're much more visible anyway. 

Thread jack: I'd also be a fan of mercs being able to hear spy comms in this radius (no obvious *bleep* hack comms message, though), but I don't know if that can be implemented well with so many variables.

More encouragement for people to use teamspeak or some other 3rd party voice program?

I never said it was balanced. I said that people can use it effectively. Zedblade is another guy who can do that. I agree it needs a buff, and that buff should be that you can't hear it everywhere in the map. But not hear it at ALL? That's overboard.

It seems like you're letting your imagination run wild here Spekkio. What kind of scenario would silent camo be unbalanced? Give a map and a situation where you think this would totally break the game. Because I'm not even remotely seeing it.

[Spekkio]

And many people have said "but you can see spies just fine in normal vision when they use camo!!1" Only if you activate it in the direct light like a tard. If you activate it in shadows, even soft ones, you will be unseen. And there are plenty of random shadows throughout the maps in places that the mercs do not need to use the flashlight to navigate the map.

If the merc doesn't have his flashlight or laser on and walking through darkness, whose fault is that?

Bolded because you obviously didn't see it the first time.

I do. The fact that you will ultimately have to traverse an open area where the merc can see you (ie, a "choke point") means that MT will remain OP  unless there is a way to quickly bypass it. Creeping is not a solution because a good merc is going to eventually alternate visions at some point, so spending 30 seconds out in the open is risky at best and suicide at worst. The way to remedy this is making camo not set off the detector. You could say another remedy is in fixing the maps, but that means almost every map is going to be exactly the same. And really, this seems to be the main function of camo: to cross areas of the map safely that the merc would ordinarilly see you. It's quite obvious that Ubi didn't intend camo to be a gadget activated up close to get necks. They just fucked up the sound so that you can't even use it for the former.

Well, I don't think that fast crouching should set off an MT box. It should make you visible to MT (using the Mr.Mic system), but only if the merc is actually looking at you. So you can always wait for him to turn his back and then fast crouch past a spot.

The MT box should only happen if the spy is running.

It doesn't matter if there's no box. The merc is going to be looking around. Only idiots sit there looking at the same spot 100% of the time.

You should watch seefoo's spy vids. They illustrate plenty of spots where you will not see camo easily with normal vision. Again, see above: you can only detect this easily if the spy is in a well-lit area.

All I can say is that I've never had troulbe seeing camo on PC. On Xbox it's a bit more powerful because your screen resolution is lower, so you may miss some fine details. but on PC, it was pretty easy to spot. You just needed to use your flashlight along wtih normal vision.

If you're a merc who doesn't turn on his flashlight and a spy with camo surprises you, well that's your own fault for not using a tool which could have illuminated the camoed spy. I realize a lot of mercs like to keep their light off to not give away their presence, but that's a double edged sword.

As has been established, the players that used camo effectively were few and far between. I pointed you to someone who uses it effectively and showcases it in his videos.

Exactly. It means that you have to do your homework. You don't just see a merc around the corner and say "ok, camo on" and grab him while the meter has depleted 10%. You have to be careful with it.

Seeing a merc rounding the corner fast and going camo+back to the wall is a risky proposition at best.

It's only risky if you can hear it.

Really, if a merc is as close as I'm envisioning to be able to hear the activation sound of camo (or the gun drawing animation), the spy shouldn't be doing ANYTHING to give away his position unless he intends to actually fight the merc. I'm talking 3-4 meters here. Picture yourself in an environment where you have to sneak around, and someone is 3 meters away. You'd probably want to stay still for a while in your hiding spot until he walks away, which the merc usually will do considering there is more than 1 objective to cover.

Yeah, it kinda helps if you can cloak yourself while standing still so there's a chance he may not see you. I'm not sure why camo in any way makes it so you wouldn't want to stand still. While you're moving in camo, you're much more visible anyway. 

Argh...

I'm not saying that camo should or does make it so that you wouldn't want to stand still. I'm saying that the spy should not have free reign over using his gadgets with no additional threat of being detected when a merc is within 3 meters. Again, don't throw the "but oh he can be found in EMF" thing out there, because not being able to be detected in 2 visions is better than being able to be detected in all of them.

Thread jack: I'd also be a fan of mercs being able to hear spy comms in this radius (no obvious *bleep* hack comms message, though), but I don't know if that can be implemented well with so many variables.

More encouragement for people to use teamspeak or some other 3rd party voice program?

Yea, it's a cool idea but really wouldn't work practically.

I never said it was balanced. I said that people can use it effectively. Zedblade is another guy who can do that. I agree it needs a buff, and that buff should be that you can't hear it everywhere in the map. But not hear it at ALL? That's overboard.

It seems like you're letting your imagination run wild here Spekkio. What kind of scenario would silent camo be unbalanced? Give a map and a situation where you think this would totally break the game. Because I'm not even remotely seeing it.

The way I'm seeing it is as follows:

Let's imagine we're playing factory. Merc is by the B doorway going to main hall. You are in the vent above him. Note that the merc can't see you there so long as you don't show yourself. Now, using camo allows you to safely traverse those rafters.

With no activation sound, you can just do this whenever. There's no thought or skill put into at all. Right click, you're almost invisible. With the activation sound under a short radius, you would have to wait for the merc to move away (or get your partner to draw his attention) for you to safely use the gadget. Takes a little more thoughtfulness and skill.

It's just a simple principle of pluses and minuses. I am not contending, nor have I ever contended, that a silent activation would be omfg imba. It would simply be a poor design decision that dumbs down the game and has the potential to making the gadget imba.

Not only that, but you've just written a whole lot about how you'd find camo from up close anyway, so why is it such a big deal to you that the merc would be able to hear its activation from that range?

[Farley4Fan]

Uhh, that's the point.

Camo DOESN'T NEED ANOTHER NERF FFS!! God damn.

It's already easy enough for someone to detect camo!  One touch of the EMF button and THERE HE IS!  Imagine that!  Plus, camo doesn't make you completely invisible, it just is a distorted appearance of the stuff behind the spy.  It's easily noticable at about 1-25 feet with NO vision.

When someone walks into a room usually they cycle through visions to see if they can pick up any spies.  That happens when someone has got on camo.  You don't need to hear it to see them.  Isn't the point of camo to hide the spies?  Why make that harder than it is?

[neth]

Also the laser detects it...

[Gawain]

papa and neth, you are really ingnorant folks.
just anwser the fucking question why camo shouldn't make a noise within 3 or 4 meters from the merc.
and stop telling nonesense like "it's a stealth gadget" or "camo is already underpowered". hbs makes noise, shooting snares makes noise, dropping chaff makes noise, etc.
hopefully the camo in ps will provide slightely better invisibility in mid range but one thing is clear: it will be different anyways, and the biggest boost is no eax superhearing bs.
and no, it's not that easy to detect camo as emf got a maximum range and camnet will probably get no special visions. imagine spekkio's example with the merc looking into B via camnet from main hall standing next to the door and you'll see that you're creating a no-brainer for lot's of situations.
i assume the reason why you don't want camo to make noise is your serious lack of stealth skills.

[Spekkio]

Camo DOESN'T NEED ANOTHER NERF FFS!! God damn.

What nerf are you talking about? Going from hearing it practically everywhere to hearing it in very close proximity to the spy is quite a buff.

Like I said, it seems pretty clear to me that the intention for this gadget was to be primarily used at medium-long range to slip by mercs in open areas undetected. Hearing the sound at that long range is what prevents that use.

[neth]

i assume the reason why you don't want camo to make noise is your serious lack of stealth skills.

I assume the reason why you want camo to make noise is your serious lack of merc skills.
--

Im a bit tired of this, its not a thing i would die for. IMO we will be able to say what is best after betas.
Two examples:
1. sometimes merc comes and you want to become invisible, you use it but when merc is nearby there is no energy left, so you become visible and exposed to sure death.
2. You are hidden in a small room. When merc comes suddenly you cant go camo, cause he would hear that and once again, you are exposed to death.

[Gawain]

you're contradicting yourself all the time. first you say camo is pretty obvious in low distances, and now you want to use it to hide in a small room. just stfu.

[neth]

Go get psychological help.

[Farley4Fan]

No.  He's not contradicting himself.  When someone walks into a room they don't instantly see a spy, the spy  could be behind a box or in a shadow somewhat.  Then, if he turns on camo because he knows that if the merc looks around he'll find him, then the merc will hear the fuckin thing turn on.  Then the merc will flip on EMF and the guy is dead.

EAX let you hear it everywhere.  EAX shouldn't have let you hear that shit anyway because it really wasn't intended to let you.

papa and neth, you are really ingnorant folks.
just anwser the fucking question why camo shouldn't make a noise within 3 or 4 meters from the merc.
and stop telling nonesense like "it's a stealth gadget" or "camo is already underpowered". hbs makes noise, shooting snares makes noise, dropping chaff makes noise, etc.
hopefully the camo in ps will provide slightely better invisibility in mid range but one thing is clear: it will be different anyways, and the biggest boost is no eax superhearing bs.
and no, it's not that easy to detect camo as emf got a maximum range and camnet will probably get no special visions. imagine spekkio's example with the merc looking into B via camnet from main hall standing next to the door and you'll see that you're creating a no-brainer for lot's of situations.
i assume the reason why you don't want camo to make noise is your serious lack of stealth skills.

We're ignorant?  Whew, that was a good one Gawain.  From what I've seen from the months on this site is that you've got ignorant tattoed to your fucking forehead.  It doesn't matter if snares or chaff make noise because guess what!?  They aren't intended to help you hide!  Snares are meant for making mercs believe you are somewhere else and scrambles their reticule.  Sounds like distraction to me.  Chaff is for disabling electronic devices like mines and traps.  Sounds like infiltration sabotage to me.  Now camo!  Camo is made to help the person hide, what good does it do to help someone hide from a merc from 5 meters away if you can hear it?  None.

And since you suggested that camo be part of the spy's inventory permanently I am assuming that you suck ass at using shadows for hiding.