Variable speed vs. invariable speed

[Spekkio]

I don't think that this aspect of SvM has been discussed yet...

In PT, you were able to adjust the speed of the spy by 4 or 5 increments. In CT, you're either going fast or slow. The question is, which should PS use?

In PT, the variable speeds had little use. With the exception of cinema, you either would set everything off at speed 2+, or set nothing off at speed 1, so the conversion to an all-or-nothing 2 speed system was the right solution for CT. However, PS opens up the opportunity to change that.

Therefore, I think that a variable speed of 5 increments would be the better option. What got me thinking about this is Gawain's "sound thread" and the fact that some surfaces would be inherently louder than others. This was even seen in the single player campaign -- walking on gravel or broken glass produced more noise than walking on a solid floor, so you had to proceed more slowly. If PS is going to use "loud" surfaces (and I think it should), it would be much better to have the variable speed system. Moving in a vent shaft doesn't produce the same level of noise as walking on gravel, and that doesn't produce the same noise as walking on glass. By having the variable system, you can adjust the threshold for what the mercs may hear accordingly. The result is added depth to the game and a more immersive feeling when you're trying to sneak around.

Obviously, it would be best if the PS makers put some sort of indication on the HUD so you know how fast you're going.

The downside, of course, is that it makes the game more complex and increases the learning curve. However, I'd be willing to deal with that in the face of utilizing more dynamic environments.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Use both.
Say in the keyboard settings you could switch between the 5 step speed and the 2 step speed, so everyone should be happy.
Also note that adding more speeds of movement would need more animations.

[Bionic-Blob]

Also note that adding more speeds of movement would need more animations.

nah, you just blend the fast and slow anims

and for the whole 5 increments thing, hey why have 5 when we can have an analogue scale ^_^ (i'm assuming this is possible)

so yar, i'd welcome it with open arms, if some sort of sound + speed meter were also included. in a later release i hope.

[InvisibleMan999]

Honestly unless the different speeds do something, there is no need to have them.

In CT it was had a purpose. Slow crouch was for evading MT and proxy mines.

The speeds in PT were mostly useless. You had to discover the minimum speed not to set off a proxy and that was a waste of time.

The only way I could see variable speed mattering is if the sound system takes it into consideration, so different speeds can be heard at different distances. So you may not ping the reticule fast walking at 3/5 speed if the merc isn't close for instance.

Even with variable speeds, I don't think we'll be able to justify more than 3 at most. Because you actually have twice the number of speed settings in actual play. If you have slow and fast, you've got fast walk, fast crouch, slow walk and slow crouch. So having 3 settings for speed means you have 6 different ways of traveling. That should be more than enough. 

If we do wnat to implement different surface noise thresholds, which really isn't a terrible idea, I think we'd want to have a slider that shows your speed and the max speed for that material. SImilar to the sound meter in CT single player, this basically shows a limit to how fast you can go and not expect to get heard. If you're slightly over that, the sound shouldn't go far, and if you're over it by a lot the sound should go even farther. It'd be nice to have a dynamic sound system that measures exactly how much sound you're making and judges hearing distance from that, instead of a simple fixed range and a yes/no system.

[LennardF1989]

I also wanted variable speed in the beginning, but think of it, where is the line of makign sound with more speed? You would probably choose the fastest no-noise one and the fastest noised one (on the merc crosshair).

So, there is no use in variable speed, since you eather go slow (no sound) or fast (sound).

[Spekkio]

Even with variable speeds, I don't think we'll be able to justify more than 3 at most. Because you actually have twice the number of speed settings in actual play. If you have slow and fast, you've got fast walk, fast crouch, slow walk and slow crouch. So having 3 settings for speed means you have 6 different ways of traveling. That should be more than enough. 

Walking is pretty moot because it sets off the reticle. Five might be excessive, but there should at least be four to account for crouch-walking all the different types of surfaces you could have.

If we do wnat to implement different surface noise thresholds, which really isn't a terrible idea, I think we'd want to have a slider that shows your speed and the max speed for that material. SImilar to the sound meter in CT single player, this basically shows a limit to how fast you can go and not expect to get heard. If you're slightly over that, the sound shouldn't go far, and if you're over it by a lot the sound should go even farther. It'd be nice to have a dynamic sound system that measures exactly how much sound you're making and judges hearing distance from that, instead of a simple fixed range and a yes/no system.

exactly what I was thinking, and a sound meter isn't a bad idea. You could also add a line on the sound meter that, when crossed, sets off the reticle (kind of like when crossing the line in SP made the NPCs detect you). Makes it much less arbitrary and takes guesswork out of whether or not you made noise.

I also wanted variable speed in the beginning, but think of it, where is the line of makign sound with more speed? You would probably choose the fastest no-noise one and the fastest noised one (on the merc crosshair).

The line is where you make it. It would need ironing out, but the effort spent on it would produce a much more immersive gaming experience.

So, there is no use in variable speed, since you eather go slow (no sound) or fast (sound).

Yes there is, because sound isn't a matter of on/off, but a matter of intensity. Also, if you adapt a system where the merc has close/medium/long "zones" of hearing (which of course would be blended and not absolute), then the intensity sure does matter. Going at speed 5 through a vent shaft would produce audible sound at the medium range, while going at 3 would produce sound at the close range and 1 would produce no sound at all. Stuff like that.

Even if we went by your "noise/no noise" system, a variable sound system would make sense because different types of surfaces can balance out the map. The fact that you can move more quickly on some surfaces than others while staying stealthy can play a role in map balance and expand on an already existing element to the game.

[InvisibleMan999]

Even with variable speeds, I don't think we'll be able to justify more than 3 at most. Because you actually have twice the number of speed settings in actual play. If you have slow and fast, you've got fast walk, fast crouch, slow walk and slow crouch. So having 3 settings for speed means you have 6 different ways of traveling. That should be more than enough. 

Walking is pretty moot because it sets off the reticle. Five might be excessive, but there should at least be four to account for crouch-walking all the different types of surfaces you could have.

Well that's something we can easily change, I always hated how there was no use for slow walking at all. It was dumb that it set off the reticule. I'd like to see slow walking to get some use too. At least having a few variable speeds. The amount of sound you make should be entirely dependent on the speed you actually move, so it'd look something like: fast walk > fast crouch > slow walk > slow crouch, for order of sound made.

exactly what I was thinking, and a sound meter isn't a bad idea. You could also add a line on the sound meter that, when crossed, sets off the reticle (kind of like when crossing the line in SP made the NPCs detect you). Makes it much less arbitrary and takes guesswork out of whether or not you made noise.

Yeah the sound meter would have to be like the single player one. It'd also be nice if, like the single player one, the sound meter took ambient noise into account, so if you're say on missile strike, with the missile about to launch and making all kinds of noise, you may be able to run around and not be heard, just like in the single player.

It allows for all sorts of innovations. Also I like the idea that sound travels farther depending on how fast you happen to be moving based on the surface, so if you go through a very noisy surface running at full speed, you may very well be able to be heard across the entire level. Sound should carry based on how much you've exceeded the reticule. I'm thinking of having different sound levels, and having a sound threshold. So for every sound level you go over the threshold, you're heard from far away. Really similar to how single player works, only being heard in this case means that the merc's reticule pings.

[Spekkio]

Heh...for once we agree  ;D...although I still think there should be 4-5 speeds to account for crouching on all the surfaces. Flipping the mousewheel to go from 1--> 5 isn't that hard.

The system could also make things ping the reticle that should. For example, if you're rolling around in a vent like a banshee, that probably should cross the "loud" threshold and then ping the reticle.

[neth]

Im for keeping CT solution cause it is simple, fast to use and this game is not about realism. Besides all people would use max slow or normal speed.
For me its gameplay over realism.

[Westfall]

I thought fast/slow was fine. I wouldn't be angry over more though.

[Spekkio]

Im for keeping CT solution cause it is simple, fast to use and this game is not about realism. Besides all people would use max slow or normal speed.
For me its gameplay over realism.

Who said anything about realism?

[Spekkio]

I thought fast/slow was fine. I wouldn't be angry over more though.

Fast/slow is 'fine' for what we have - a 3 year old buggy game that needs an update. I just think that in order to expand the game's depth (which is part of what PS is ultimately trying to do, no?), the variable speed solution is superior.

[Farley4Fan]

Give it the same animation but it's touch sensitve depending on mouse wheel clicks.  Same animation, different speeds.

[neth]

Im for keeping CT solution cause it is simple, fast to use and this game is not about realism. Besides all people would use max slow or normal speed.
For me its gameplay over realism.

Who said anything about realism?

Well, this idea is basicly heading into realism direction and differing surfaces proves it.

Depth is obviously important but for me this concept is just about adding unnecessary complexity.

The question is, do we really want to slow down a spy because of the surface. It is not something he can decide about and we shouldnt make it harder to remain undetected, when he's not doing anything wrong.

Adding this would mostly hurt stealthy spies - which is a paradox, because it would make them move  slower - this means they would have to move slow altough they already move slow enough. Aggro spies dont care about if they're heard or not, so it would not make such a difference for them.

[Farley4Fan]

I see what you mean neth, but once people start to learn the maps they would start avoiding areas if they want to remain hidden that make more noise.  Example:  There is a pile of gravel outside a base.  If you want to infiltrate that base quickly and unheard/unseen then you would try to avoid that gravel so you don't have to move slower to remain undetected.  Possibly, you could make those areas that make more noise around areas that are useful.  Like if you put that area of gravel outside of a vent that led straight to an objective some people would be willing to risk going slow in that gravel to get to the objective unheard and more easily.