merc confusion gadget

[Gawain]

maybe we should simply drop this idea. even if we manage to find a hologram system good enough to trick a good player and if the devs are able to implement it we woud still have no real idea of it's impact on the gameplay. maybe it's a really bad idea to implement a gadget that fools your vision totally in a stealth game where it's already quite hard to find the spies.
i really do think that the time wasted discussing this would be better spend on discussing changes and new features for spy traps.

[Farley4Fan]

Sounds like it'd take too long to set up.

agreed.   I was just brainstorming.  And gawain.  We talk on all the topics at the same time  ;)

[Vega]

You're ignoring so many of the suggestions it's not funny anymore...

It's because these suggestions are HORRIBLE.  You guys are naming everything off the top of your head.  I used to do this too, till I found out how pointless it was till I had something concrete.  Remote-control spy images?  You guys have to be kidding me.  What kind of game are we playing?  95% of the ideas proposed on this forum are simply "hey this would be cool!" but the person rarely thinks how the gadget/idea affects gameplay, mechanically and fundamentally.  It's really fucking annoying because a lot of these ideas don't even propose something new to the game fundamentally, just some eye candy to work with.  The problem is how many people look at the graphic or "cool" effect rather than how it works fundamentally.

So what do I mean by fundamentally?  Let's look at a common situation when two spies go for a single objective.  One spy hacks, while the other provides cover.  The covering spy usually tazes, nades, elbows, or does whatever possible to distract a merc(s) from reaching the hacking spy, right?  This can and sometimes involves putting the covering spy in danger.  He sometimes has to go in there and and use close combat against a merc.  It's a dangerous strategy but very rewarding if done successfully.  So what does a remote-controlled image do?  Nothing.  It can't do a single thing.  This isn't a guessing game.  A merc isn't going to be intimidated by some random non-threatening spy.  A quick rifle/UZI/shotgun shot will take care of that image's believability.  Not only does a remote-controlled image take one spy out of the action (since he has to manually move it around) but it also does absolutely nothing for distraction.  "Oh a spy, let's chase him!"  Is this Tom and Jerry?  Do you have thumbtacks scattered on the ground around the corner? 

Even if this stupid image could shoot nades and elbow and taze, then it removes the danger factor and completely screws over the balance of the situation I gave above.  There are countless situations I can give, yet the only situation you guys are going to be able to provide is "OMG!  You can send this image in to distract!"  It's as if you guys think the remote-controlled image is gold and the mercenaries will run wildly towards it, ignoring all other aspects of the game like sniping, nades, visions, patrolling, camnet, etc.

I could explain throughly how the holopod has the same problems, how it's fundamentally a poor idea, but I'm not up for doing that at the moment. 

[Farley4Fan]

Vega, if you see a hologram run by your face you aren't going to worry about patrolling, camnet, sniping at that moment.  You are going to stop what you are doing and try to kill the spy.  Not, "Oh, I better worry about stopping the spies and keep sniping and forget about that spy I see running across the corner of my screen"  It's not something a merc is going to run wildly after, maybe the merc would chase it around 20 feet until he realizes that the spy isn't real.  If you can get a merc 20 more feet away from an objective and not in firing range, you have atleast 3-4 seconds of hack time depending on how close you are to the objective when he chases it.  And all we are doing now is brainstorming because as a community we can get more opinions and suggestions rather than 1 person making set-in-stone suggestions.  If a community contributes you will end up with an idea that is better than the one you thought up in the first place.  Unless you have an idea that everyone agrees upon, which doesn't happen very often.

This would also be a nice aggro tool and escape tool.  You throw a pod down and all of a sudden there are two spies that he can't differ from unless he shoots them or notices some abnormalities in the spy hologram.  Think about using this as an escape tool.  A merc knows you are at a position, and you put one of these babies down and have him go in a random direction.  The merc is going to at first think that it is real, and meanwhile you are free to go in any direction you'd like to escape.  Think about using this for bomb attacks, example Polar Base:  You plant a bomb on the top of the generators.  You put a holopod on the bottom level and the merc is going to think the bomb you planted is at the bottom level because he saw the holopod running around at the floor level.  This could buy you some time because the mercs are going to check the bottom first.

[Cyntrox]

1) Papa is right.
2) Yet again you ignored one of my posts, Vega:

This has evolved into a lot of randomness about improving this idea. Remote control is retarded, as is AI. Forget about those.

I agree that AI is not a good idea, but tell me why a limited remote control is retarded. I'm not talking about assuming full control of the hologram, I'm talking about specifying a point to move to and from, and perhaps do minor things on the way - like getting up and diving if it is seen.

[Ion.67]

1) Papa is right.
2) Yet again you ignored one of my posts, Vega:

This has evolved into a lot of randomness about improving this idea. Remote control is retarded, as is AI. Forget about those.

I agree that AI is not a good idea, but tell me why a limited remote control is retarded. I'm not talking about assuming full control of the hologram, I'm talking about specifying a point to move to and from, and perhaps do minor things on the way - like getting up and diving if it is seen.

That is called AI, bud. Don't even think about it. Papa is not right, the merc will follow the thing that is running like hell, not the one who is just running towards him, doing nothing.

I am not going to post some master post about why this is a horrible idea. I have already posted numerous times against everyone of the options on this holopod thing.

[Spekkio]

Vega is on fire in this thread. So wise.

[Ion.67]

Vega is on fire in this thread. So wise.

Stay on topic and quit acting all tough. [/sarcasm]

[Spekkio]

Vega is on fire in this thread. So wise.

Stay on topic and quit acting all tough. [/sarcasm]

stfu or i will smite ye. rawr!

[Cyntrox]

1) Papa is right.
2) Yet again you ignored one of my posts, Vega:

This has evolved into a lot of randomness about improving this idea. Remote control is retarded, as is AI. Forget about those.

I agree that AI is not a good idea, but tell me why a limited remote control is retarded. I'm not talking about assuming full control of the hologram, I'm talking about specifying a point to move to and from, and perhaps do minor things on the way - like getting up and diving if it is seen.

That is called AI, bud. Don't even think about it. Papa is not right, the merc will follow the thing that is running like hell, not the one who is just running towards him, doing nothing.

I am not going to post some master post about why this is a horrible idea. I have already posted numerous times against everyone of the options on this holopod thing.

No, moving from one point to another is not AI. It requires no intelligence at all. Neither does standing up and diving if the merc has you on their screen.

And only a fool would make the image run right towards a merc - a good use would be letting the merc get a small glimpse of the hologram, as to make him leave his position to check it out.

[frvge]

No, moving from one point to another is not AI[/qote]
Obstacle evasion is (computationally very expensive). Finding an optimal path is (IDA* algorithm). So yeah  ;)

[Ion.67]

No, moving from one point to another is not AI

Obstacle evasion is (computationally very expensive). Finding an optimal path is (IDA* algorithm). So yeah  ;)

I think that means that it is AI?

[Cyntrox]

Who ever said it needs obstacle evasion? If the maps are as clean as in CT, you should be able to make use of it by having it move in a straight line.

[Westfall]

For the record, I wouldn't set up a hologram to protect me in the same room I am hacking. That was a very n00b scenario. I love when you people say "any good merc" too. Makes me laugh only with how wrong everyone is. Vega said 1 correct thing about getting something concrete. Unfortunately Vega, it would have to wait a while, which makes your post....well...useless. But thanks for explaining how the hologram wouldn't work or is a poor idea. Wait wait....you didn't do that either....that would've actually been constructive criticism. Rather, you just babbled a poor scenario and here we still are. So Spekkio is right by saying your on fire....for making the gay comments. (see you tonight...but no thong this time ;) )

"OMG, YOU CAN SEND THE IMAGE TO DISTRACT?!?!?!?" OMG, you can only shoot snares to distract? EVERY GADGET IS A TYPE OF DISTRACTION.

Frvge, how hard would it be to record certain presets of the hologram with a pause option, have a menu for this before shooting the bullet-sized holopod, and make it loop only once? The idea of remote controlling and making it go around corners doesn't really work. It would take too long to set-up. If you just had a recording of the spy crouched/walking into a vent and freezing in there, well the merc is quite confused now yea? He will go for where the spy is going. Any good merc would (lol), or any good merc(lol) would try to guess where he was coming out or go to the nearest objective.

maybe we should simply drop this idea. even if we manage to find a hologram system good enough to trick a good player and if the devs are able to implement it we woud still have no real idea of it's impact on the gameplay. maybe it's a really bad idea to implement a gadget that fools your vision totally in a stealth game where it's already quite hard to find the spies.
i really do think that the time wasted discussing this would be better spend on discussing changes and new features for spy traps.

Then make another fuckin thread, no one is stopping you, so by all means. You are correct that we don't know the impact. I'm kind of tired of obvious things being stated as well as being repeated. It has to be tested before implemented.

There are ideas being thrown out at random though, and shouldn't be. The only real huge flaw with this, even though not really, is that the hologram wouldn't be seen in MT vision, which is a dead giveaway if the merc doesn't think to turn it on right away. With good ideas there have to be flaws in order to balance out, so it not being tracked on MT makes it that much more workable as a gadget.

[frvge]

Frvge, how hard would it be to record certain presets of the hologram with a pause option, have a menu for this before shooting the bullet-sized holopod, and make it loop only once?

If there are like 4 options AND the holopod runs straight from A to B, only affected by gravity and the floor, so basically no-clipping through obstacles, it MIGHT be possible.