HBS

[Gawain]

spekkio, you can't compare hbs to other gadgets, you can only compare it to bullets.

if you don't play too passive like toal newbs you will have to taze the merc every once in a while anyways so it's not really a problem to track the mercs without giving away your position where you wouldn't with hbs, even for stealth players.

bullets also work through walls. you can easily shoot a bullet 1 or 2s before you start hacking in the most situations so it doesn't give away your position if the mercs have no bullet on them.
btw, it would be fun if you could shoot a bullet at your spy mate so that he works as a running radar.

the only real counter to bullets is having them removed by your mate which is also quite map-dependant (just like hbs's range). on maps with no central point bullets are quite strong.
the good bullet spots are also quite map-dependant just like the possibility to easily deploy them easily from the very beginning (like on steel or polar).

i also think that map layout should be more like factory where a certain amount of stealth is required.

it's also total bullshit to make hbs drain energy/time as it's quite fast to scan 360Ã,° and with less lag you won't need more than 2 ss shots to taze a merc anyways. the only thing it does is prohibiting the use of camo right afterwars.

[Peachie]

I say no.  It has drawbacks.  The fact that you light up on emf and that you have to completely slow down to use it make it harder to use in some situations.  You can't just sit around all day with it out because it has no drawbacks.  In fact, you have to put it away when you see a merc just for the fact that if he switches to EMF you are going to be found.  Plus you have to slow down.  If you are trying to get from point A to point B, and you want to search for mercs, you have to stop, do a 360 turn, and keep moving.

And don't forget that the reason it makes it different than spy bullets is that it has unlimited use.  Why make them more similar than they already are?  There needs to be differences in gadgets so they have the ups and downs to using one instead of the other.

Right on, I totally agree.

[Spekkio]

spekkio, you can't compare hbs to other gadgets, you can only compare it to bullets.

I did compare it to bullets:

Bullets:
-Require you to draw your gun to use it
-Make you show up on EMF
-Require you to slow down to draw your gun
-Make an extremely loud noise
-Has limited range
-Doesn't even work when the mercs stand still (although let's hope this gets fixed in PS)
-Can be actively shot out or removed by mercs
-Have a limited duration
-Are limited to 5 per live
-Allows you to hack the merc's comms (this is a questionable advantage at best, since the spy's comms are the ones you'd really want to hear)

HBS:

-Requires you to draw your gun to use it
-Makes you show up on EMF
-Require you to slow down to draw your gun
-Makes a very quiet noise that can only be heard with EAX + close range
-Has limited range
-Works whether the mercs move or not
-Cannot be actively disabled by mercs
-Has unlimited duration
-Has unlimited amount of use
-Doesn't allow you to hack the merc's comms

(highlighted differences)

Yes, there are drawbacks to the HBS, but my point is that the drawbacks that it has are shared by pretty much every other gadget, including bullets, and then some. Since there really wouldn't be any viable way to give the mercs a way to stop the HBS from working, the only thing I'm asking to be fixed is the unlimited use. Nothing more.

it's also total bullshit to make hbs drain energy/time as it's quite fast to scan 360Ã,° and with less lag you won't need more than 2 ss shots to taze a merc anyways.

First, that's why I said that it maybe should drain energy faster than camo. Second, requiring the energy to be full for it to work would prevent you from using the HBS in succession too quickly.

[Gawain]

requiring the energy to be full for it to work would prevent you from using the HBS in succession too quickly.

now THIS change makes perfect sense, especially with a boosted camo. aggro tactics would require bullets again, too.
maybe the range of hbs should depend on the battery status, so the longer you scan / the more you are out of energy because of playing aggro or using camo the less scanning range you get.

[Westfall]

bullets work for me when a merc is standing still....weird.

[Cyntrox]

Sometimes they do for me, sometimes they don't.

[Farley4Fan]

That always works for me.

Spekkio you left out some of the key details.  Why?  I don't know, maybe to help out your side of the argument or something.  You forgot to mention that you can quickly deploy spy bullets and they give you radar whether you have your gun drawn or not.  Heartbeat on the other hand, you HAVE to have your gun pulled out to use it.  When you put away your gun it goes away as well.  PLUS, the whole time you are using hbs, you light up on EMF.  You expose yourself to expose the enemy position.  With spy bullets it's like a split second thing and they only know that you are in the area, and not your exact location. 

Like I said before, they have their ups and downs.  It works that way. 

[Gawain]

the balance of hbs and bullets depends quite much on the map design so it's really hard to find the right balance for more then one basic map layout.

[InvisibleMan999]

-Require you to draw your gun to use it

This is misleading. Spybullets actually don't require your gun to "use it", only to place it, and that's a big difference. You can't scan HBS while you're hacking for instance, so if you want advance warning while hacking you either need a partner with HBS or a spybullet.

That's the main advantage to bullets is that you can hack while using them, or fast crouch while using them.

If anything, for balance, I always felt like bullets should just be silent when you place them.

I'm not really sure why gadgets need huge drawbacks. Gadgets are boosts that you take. There's no drawback to taking cams or smoke grenades, I'm not sure why HBS or spybullets should have drawbacks either. The only drawback to taking most gadgets is that you've used up a gadget slot.

[Cyntrox]

I'm not really sure why gadgets need huge drawbacks. Gadgets are boosts that you take. There's no drawback to taking cams or smoke grenades, I'm not sure why HBS or spybullets should have drawbacks either. The only drawback to taking most gadgets is that you've used up a gadget slot.

Cams and smoke nades makes noise, and they give away your position.

[Spekkio]

-Require you to draw your gun to use it

This is misleading. Spybullets actually don't require your gun to "use it", only to place it, and that's a big difference. You can't scan HBS while you're hacking for instance, so if you want advance warning while hacking you either need a partner with HBS or a spybullet.

That's the main advantage to bullets is that you can hack while using them, or fast crouch while using them.

If anything, for balance, I always felt like bullets should just be silent when you place them.

I'm not really sure why gadgets need huge drawbacks. Gadgets are boosts that you take. There's no drawback to taking cams or smoke grenades, I'm not sure why HBS or spybullets should have drawbacks either. The only drawback to taking most gadgets is that you've used up a gadget slot.

Well, yes, the two gadgets have fundamentally different functions, and that ought to stay. What I have issue with is any gadget that can be used infinitely, both in duration and amount, without any way to counter it.

Cams and smoke nades makes noise, and they give away your position.

On top of the drawbacks that all other gadgets have (make noise, are limited in number, must be fired from the gun, have limited range and area of effect), cams and smoke can be directly countered by the merc's gasmask.

I say again: The ONLY issue I have is when a gadget can be used infinitely. On the merc's side, the tazer should get some limitation to use, either through number of charges or an increased cooldown time. Camnet should be able to be shot out by spies and bypassable using camo, thus allowing spies to directly counter it. Everything else has a limit to how much you can use the gadget.

[Spekkio]

bullets work for me when a merc is standing still....weird.

If you tag the merc with the bullet, it works no matter what. If you use it as a radar, it stops working if the merc doesn't move.

[InvisibleMan999]

Well, yes, the two gadgets have fundamentally different functions, and that ought to stay. What I have issue with is any gadget that can be used infinitely, both in duration and amount, without any way to counter it.

What if we reversed the current detection scheme. Such that spybullets detect a stationary merc, but HBS doesn't.

That way if you want to set a trap for HBS people, you just stand still.

But I really don't feel like HBS needs many counters, because it's a passive gadget. It's not like cams or smoke where it's going to cripple you as a merc if you don't counter it. What stuff with HBS is so powerful that you have to counter it? There's the one "wait till the mercs leave" strategy which is fairly useful, the drawback is that it can eat up a lot of time.

I guess I've never really seen HBS dominate the game at all. It's certainly good, but it's not going to hack any objectives for you.

[Cyntrox]

bullets work for me when a merc is standing still....weird.

If you tag the merc with the bullet, it works no matter what. If you use it as a radar, it stops working if the merc doesn't move.

I've experienced bullets going right through the merc and becoming a radar - and no, I didn't miss, it has happened when the merc was sleeping too.

[Vega]

Cyntrox, I think that's just lag in general.  Even if a spy is knocked out, on the ground, I can't count many times I've "shot" at his body and see him take no damage (no red reticle).