I just got this idea from Digital's poison thread:
Obviously the spies are faster and more mobile than mercs. Well, what if the mercs had a gadget to slow them down temporarily? I'm still thinking about how one would design such a gadget and how it would work exactly. In other words, is this something to shoot at spies? A new type of trap to plant? Hmmmzz
In the meantime, discuss.
Of course, UT3 has the Slow-field or something. I think that'd be a bit too high-tech tho.
Maybe if some parts of the map have it 'blocking' a hallway and that the Merc can put it on and off, like the traps in Pyrocryptic?
Sounds too much like F.E.A.R. to me.
the idea sounds interesting, but actually more passive security (and more mine and trap spots in balanced places) are sufficient. the client ss-timer is also fine, just the host's with 1 more second allows too much running around.
I sorta thouht this would be a nice use for phorphor nades. Lay down a cloud of something and the spy gets sklowed if he goes through it. That way it'd be a nice way to cut off a spy's escape. I think that'd actualyl be a pretty useful gadget.
Interesting idea.
perhaps some sort of tranquilizer that doesn't knock out the spy? or perhaps this is what the poison mine should do. -20% ms wouldnt be too bad, with a slower kill rate.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 13, 2008, 08:55:57 PM
I sorta thouht this would be a nice use for phorphor nades. Lay down a cloud of something and the spy gets sklowed if he goes through it. That way it'd be a nice way to cut off a spy's escape. I think that'd actualyl be a pretty useful gadget.
Exactly.
And Gawain, more security or spy traps will slow down the spies when they're trying to infiltrate, but not when they're trying to escape a merc. I mean, if there's a camera in your way of running from the merc, then fuck the camera. The slow would be a way to keep up with and kill the spies after you locate them.
Honestly, that would be the best item to slow a spy down. As a gadget and could replace grenades. Especially if you kept the Phosphor elements implemented such as they show up in EMF. That way, it would make phosphor nades almost useful. Slow down that spy, and if he decides to go through it, he's trackable for a certain amount of time. Almost as powerful as a nade, but not a nade. This could make it an interesting choice for selection.
Nade = isntant death
phosphor = slow cloud and tracking for eventual kill
Taking both would mean not taking something else of importance. This could be the one gadget that makes the merc loadout interesting.
Merc 1 passive aggressive
mines, spytraps, phospho, backpack
Merc 2 aggressive:
nades, phosphos, tazer, Camnet.
Great idea.
I somewhat like the idea. However, you have to think about it in the eyes of a spy and not the merc for a second. Imagine how friggin annoying that would be to have your biggest advantage taken away within a matter of a second. It would extremely handicap aggro spies, like we haven't already done that enough. This all depends on implementation and would call for a shitload of testing.
What's the point of tracking a spy and making him slow? Can't you already chase him down if he's really slow anyways? Or do spies only move slower in the cloud? This has so many things to discuss, I'm kind of iffy on it.
Personally, I'd want a more combat specialized gadget rather than another "lay these down whenever you feel like" or grenade type.
I want to be able to set up some kind of trip wire thing that deploys, without you needing to stop and face the wall, while I'm running to an objective being hacked. This way, it would prevent the spies from running away to the direction you came from and slow down the spy enough so you could hunt them down after you've shot the bomb or whatever. It would stop a lot of shock and run from hack to hack or always taking the most obvious escape route.
My vote is to have it with the phosphorus nades as well, that would knock out two birds with one stone.
New Idea:
What about a trip wire for spies? Basically it's a metallic wire that spies plant to trip uncareful mercs. If the merc trips over one of these he'd be knocked down for a few seconds giving you some precious time. The merc could disable these by shooting them on one of the ends or simply jump over it. The thing is that it would work on spies as well, but they know where they are, so they could jump/roll over them when needed.
I know you all will say that mercs shouldn't have to worry about walking around the map, but they actually should imo. Of course not to the extent of spies, but to some degree right? I mean, mercs already do check corners to avoid being grabbed.
The thing I'm wondering about is how easy it will be to see these. The wire itself should be pretty thin and be able to be put a few inches from the ground. This is where the testing would be needed. I don't think it would unbalance anything. It would just possibly buy you some time and possibly give you an easy sticky cam shot. I think it would be fun and add to the gameplay. Imagine luring a merc around a corner, jumping over the wire, having him trip over it, and you can escape easily or put him to sleep. Maybe stickies shouldn't work on the downed merc though... It would also take a few seconds for the spies to prepare it, so he can't just go running around and throwing them down.
trip wires suck (too similar to laser, poison mines and spytraps).
Quote from: Vega on March 14, 2008, 02:27:16 AM
My vote is to have it with the phosphorus nades as well, that would knock out two birds with one stone.
actually it's a nice idea. when i first thought about it, i dropped it because i thought mines and passive security would be sufficient slow-down, but spekkio is right those don't slow down a fleeing spy.
for that matter, i think ph nades should be triggered when hitting anything just like insta nades (but balanced as it's non-lethal so it doesnt work as a rocket launcher).
my current idea of perfect ph. nades is this:
-triggerd when hitting floor/wall/spy (allowing fast deployment and seperating it more from frag nades)
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
-speed of spy running through dust reduced to merc's running speed and diving or jumping is also impossible
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps
-ph dust also slows down mercs (not using mask) and let them leave footsteps
discuss ;D
EDIT: timer, mercs also affected, speed
Sounds good to me. Timer of 50 sec to 40 or 30.
Ok and what if merc enters the room and blocks with slowing-nade the only one logical way which the spy could use to run away ? It would almost always mean he's dead.
IMO if we want slowing down effect it should exist as a new gadget. Im not sure about the form but it should definitely be something that is planted before action starts - like bear trap or some beam device. Perhaps we could use ceiling here.
Sounds way op to me. A merc can instantly take away one of the only advantages he has on the spy, and eventually kill him.
Trip wires aren't similar to mines. You have to set up each end. AND it knocks the merc down and doesn't kill/poison him. Sounds pretty interesting.
IF the merc is tossing slownades to prevent a spy from going somewhere, he's using the device effectively. Using the slownade means that the spy, if he doesn't want to take the risk of going through just has to find cover until the cloud clears.
I think the idea of the slownade would be a replacement option for the standard nade, and could become a significant tool against seeking and terminating spies. Just as how the HB sensor was once considered useless, it's become an almost necessary tool.
Trip wires against mercs are useless, it's not like they move fast, or anything like that. Might as well use a cam. If anything, you give the spy rope, which could be used as a trip wire or a newly created zipline. But that's just crazy.
I dont like this for one reason, we may see problems.
Other than this, I lthink I like it, I'm at work so just gazed through the thread, sorry if I missed something.
What if I'm hacking?
I the merc throws a "Slow nade" and I cant move fast enough... BAM he blows my head off.
Also in my opinion, a good merc can catch up to a spy... I've caught up to plenty of spies with smart manuvering.
Quote from: Digital-Maniac on March 14, 2008, 04:21:51 PM
I dont like this for one reason, we may see problems.
Other than this, I lthink I like it, I'm at work so just gazed through the thread, sorry if I missed something.
What if I'm hacking?
I the merc throws a "Slow nade" and I cant move fast enough... BAM he blows my head off.
Also in my opinion, a good merc can catch up to a spy... I've caught up to plenty of spies with smart manuvering of running into walls and getting neck broken.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 14, 2008, 04:26:19 PM
Quote from: Digital-Maniac on March 14, 2008, 04:21:51 PM
I dont like this for one reason, we may see problems.
Other than this, I lthink I like it, I'm at work so just gazed through the thread, sorry if I missed something.
What if I'm hacking?
I the merc throws a "Slow nade" and I cant move fast enough... BAM he blows my head off.
Also in my opinion, a good merc can catch up to a spy... I've caught up to plenty of spies with smart manuvering of running into walls and getting neck broken.
Holy crap Agent agreed with me :o
What if you're hacking?
The merc throws a real nade and you blow up. WOW!
If he the throws a slownade there might be a chance you escape. Sounds like a good trade off for me.
PS. I've caught up to plenty of spies with smart manuvering of running into walls and getting neck broken.
That's what Agent added.
That is true but unless the nade is the fabled insta gets me.
I imagine Aquarius the merc on the bridge shooting his nade, i can run and escape with minimal damage.
and can still run into the "Big tank" and escape... if i'm running slow, i can get whacked. Though I will say I'ms lightly more convinced.
the slowing down effect can be fine tuned quite easily, 20% may be even too low for an effective slowing down gadget. if you have problem with getting away after hacking an objective, you should probably stop hacking some seconds earlier. what you also forget is that if a merc walks through ph. dust, he would also leave footsteps and gets slowed down not using mask. i'm gonna add this to the original post.
A huge net the merc can deploy....ftw
No to phosphorous nade showing spy in emf...thats a little much.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 14, 2008, 05:51:53 PM
No to phosphorous nade showing spy in emf...thats a little much.
actually it's not: if the spy is in your fov, you will see him anyways because he has the green glowing shit on him and footsteps leading directly to him. so it would only help you in aggro situations which is a good thing. there will also probably be no emf ghosting in ps so that ph nades would be a good tool to find spies in ceilings (other emf-translucent materials aren't that common anyways). think about it: it's balanced with a spytrapped spy, so why shouldn't it be balanced with a spy not on your radar?
Quote from: Gawain on March 14, 2008, 06:25:43 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 14, 2008, 05:51:53 PM
No to phosphorous nade showing spy in emf...thats a little much.
actually it's not: if the spy is in your fov, you will see him anyways because he has the green glowing shit on him and footsteps leading directly to him. so it would only help you in aggro situations which is a good thing. there will also probably be no emf ghosting in ps so that ph nades would be a good tool to find spies in ceilings (other emf-translucent materials aren't that common anyways). think about it: it's balanced with a spytrapped spy, so why shouldn't it be balanced with a spy not on your radar?
The phos nade already leaves glowing shit. That is the sense of exposure. Its not an electrically stimulated material. If hes glowing already....y do u need him to light up in emf? This doesn't even pertain to emf ghosting. Phos nade does not equal spy bullet. Its a green substance that sticks to the spy, glows, and leaves a trail. NOW it will be able to slow the spy down or possibly cause damage due to the exposure of the gas portion of the nade once its detonated. There isn't a need for it to show on emf. Itwill show well enough in regular vision. Mercs don't need the advantage of being able to see the spy through a ceiling because he got slimed.
Give the phospho nade a few more uses, and not 1 huge use that cripples the spy drastically.
- 15% slowing effect that wears off depending on how bad the spy was hit by it.
- Makes spies leave glowing footprints
- Makes the spy himself glow a greenish color for 10-15 seconds.
All those depend on how close the spy was to the nade when it went off and how long he stayed near it. If you make it slow the spy down too much then aggro will become absolutely useless. Even a 30% slowdown effect with a boosted tazer will cripple aggro by A LOT!
As for trip wires, I'm still sort of iffy on it. It may be fun but I wonder how it would work out.
QuoteTrip wires against mercs are useless, it's not like they move fast, or anything like that. Might as well use a cam. If anything, you give the spy rope, which could be used as a trip wire or a newly created zipline. But that's just crazy.
Not useless. You don't have to be controlling the trip wires for them to trip mercs. Imagine guarding tech room with trip wires on every door. That would buy you an extra 4-5 seconds and give you a key oppurtunity to nade the shit out of the merc. I don't think it should matter how fast the merc is going. No matter how slow the merc goes, he'll still lose his footing and fall over. If you use them wisely and in good locations I'm guessing they'd be quite effective even against good mercs.
Example: You get into pirates room and have 6-7 seconds left to hack. You know that there is a merc camping in the hallway between greek and pirates, and one merc in tech. So, you set up a trip wire at the beginning of the greenish hallway between pirates and greek, and 1 down below in the doorway from tech to pirates. Note that these can be placed a few inches from the ground to decrease visibility. You then start to hack pirates. Naturally the merc from greek starts to come. By that time you've already got a few seconds hacked. The merc comes around the corner into the hallway linking pirates to greek and trips over the wire. You get 4 more seconds hacked because of this. By the time he gets in a position to fire a nade you are finished hacking.
I think it would add some nice situations to the game and a nice gadget for the spies that the mercs can counter if they are careful enough.
Phos grenades with slow-effect = ok
tripwire = not. Takes too much time to set-up I think. Unless you shoot something which sets itself up?
Possibly. Maybe it would just shoot out of your ss. Like for example, the trip arrow in bioshock. You shoot it in the wall and the rest of the wire deploys from the spot you shot it at.
Here's a video of what I mean in Bioshock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQHqcAjkTPQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQHqcAjkTPQ)
Note that he's shooting it so that it faces up. This wouldn't be how it would be used, but you get the basic idea of how it could work.
The ideal slowing effect would be something you set up before hand. For instance say you're in river mall and have the spy hacking the showroom. You fire a slow nade to the back exit of showroom and go in the main way. If the spy chooses to go out the back, he gets slowed and you probably catch him. If he chooses to go out the front he has to contend with you.
The slow nade should be a way to temporarily cut off a spy's escape route.
there's no need for a trap wire, sticky cams are sufficient for that purpose. on the other hand, ph. nades add something totally new to the gameplay: a possibility to quickly block a way with a tracking system and a slow down tool. besides, you can use them as fake nades.
it looks to me like the devs like the idea of ph nades, so if you implement them please make them explode at contact with walls etc (not like frag nades with a delay).
I've already stated why sticky cams aren't sufficient for that purpose:
1) You don't have to "man" the trip wire, it stops the merc without you having to look through it like the sticky cam.
2) Because of reason 1 you can still hack and have sufficient means of slowing the merc down. With sticky cams you cannot.
3) Stickies can easily be countered by using gas mask. The only way you can avoid a trip wire is if you see it and react quick enough to jump over it/shoot it. Because they are only a few inches from the ground they are hard to see.
Gawain if you make it so that they explode on impact there will be no way of countering them or avoiding them as spies. You basically get an insta nade everytime, which is bad. The spies are just hit with it out of nowhere and all of sudden have no advantage over the merc. Whereas if the grenade is on a timer (3 sec) the spies have time to react and avoid it.
Maybe a lowered timer for phosphorous nades though? Like half the time at 1.5-2 second delay? OR it could start to shoot out the phosphorous nades as soon as it is launched but it takes time to fill out into a big cloud. That to me sounds best.
well insta ph nades arent op because they don't kill the spy, they just help the merc a little bit to catch the fleeing spy. once again, if you have this problem let your mate cover you and get away 3s earlier.
What as a counter-gadget some adrenaline function for the Spies which boosts their speed and normal vision? (think some sort of special vision that automatically gets triggered instead of normal or any other Spy vision, showing Mercs and mines/traps)? Would last 3-5 seconds and you'd get 2 or 3 per life, also maybe boosts the Spy's health with 20% (or acts like armor).
Eh, nah. I hate having gadgets that only counter other specific gadgets. I understand it may be useful for other things though...
Gawain, why would you want to get away 3s earlier if you could hack 4s longer?
QuoteWhat as a counter-gadget some adrenaline function
No, hard-counter gadgets = bad.
What I'm thinking is the slowing gadget slows the spies to the merc's run speed, and removes the speed bonus from diving.
There are several ways this can be put into the game:
-A passive defense that could work either like a spy trap, proxy mine, or PD that shoots something that slows you to the merc's speed for a short period of time (figure like 10 seconds) when you trip it.
-A grenade that leaves a cloud
-A grenade that explodes on contact
-A direct shot device that you aim and shoot with your gun, maybe like a netting or some goo or something
When I was thinking of this, I was more thinking of a direct-shot device, since it would be most useful when you are actually chasing the spy. The passive trap would be my last choice because the utility of the gadget comes from when you have already spotted the spy. If he trips the defense when you're not around then it goes to waste, and it's not like this item helps you find the spies to begin with.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 01:46:44 AM
QuoteWhat as a counter-gadget some adrenaline function
No, hard-counter gadgets = bad.
What I'm thinking is the slowing gadget slows the spies to the merc's run speed, and removes the speed bonus from diving.
There are several ways this can be put into the game:
-A passive defense that could work either like a spy trap, proxy mine, or PD that shoots something that slows you to the merc's speed for a short period of time (figure like 10 seconds) when you trip it.
-A grenade that leaves a cloud
-A grenade that explodes on contact
-A direct shot device that you aim and shoot with your gun, maybe like a netting or some goo or something
When I was thinking of this, I was more thinking of a direct-shot device, since it would be most useful when you are actually chasing the spy. The passive trap would be my last choice because the utility of the gadget comes from when you have already spotted the spy. If he trips the defense when you're not around then it goes to waste, and it's not like this item helps you find the spies to begin with.
Oh you mean like an Intsa nade? I see
Lol that's what I said here: "You basically get an insta nade everytime, which is bad."
Why? Why try and prove insta nades to be bad and then promote a new type of nade which does that everytime? An instant nade that slows spies down, which would usually mean an easy kill for mercs, is just as bad as an instant frag nade. Well maybe it doesn't kill him instantly, but will get him killed. The spy has no defense against an instantly slowing down nade and his chances of escaping at all are abysmal. Aggro will basically be killed by this one suggestion.
I said the net thing as a joke. The slowdown nade IS the phosphorous nade imo. Instead of hurting the spy, it can slow him down.
Still thinking about the tripwire. Don't really seea purpose when there would be no way for a merc to counter it. "Shoot it out." Even cams you can shoot out, but you also have a gasmask. Are we going to give the merc a pair of scissors? I don't think another KO is necessary for the merc when you can jump him of make him zzzzz.
Quote from: Digital-Maniac on March 15, 2008, 04:06:12 AM
Oh you mean like an Intsa nade? I see
Double post: Cut it out with the "insta nade" nonsense. It was a nice observation, but it takes away from game play 100%. Metal wasn't supposed to have a weak point. Especially when it came to a grenade. I can understand the "chances" that something might instantly explode because it was defective, which was the mindset I established when getting pissed about getting screwed by CT when I got insta-ed. Get off of it already. Its an exposed LAME point. Think more game play and less bug.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 12:26:28 AM
Gawain, why would you want to get away 3s earlier if you could hack 4s longer?
because the risk of getting killed isn't usually worth hacking some seconds longer? because even if you get away the merc sees which way you take? once again, you obviously have no clue. ::)
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 01:46:44 AM
What I'm thinking is the slowing gadget slows the spies to the merc's run speed, and removes the speed bonus from diving.
sounds like the perfect speed to me. i'll add this to the properties list and create a new topic for ph.nades so that this thread can focus on alternatives.
Wouldn't it be easier just to copy the slow affect for the smokenade for mercs, then apply it to the phospho nade? Personally, i'd use the slownade as described. Then if the spy is smart, he could roll through, be slowed slightly, but then has the inability to hide well due to the emf.
slownade:
-slows down spies while in phosphorous cloud ie:phosphorous gas
-spy is now visible on emf
-spy glows slightly and leaves foot prints
smokenade
-slows down Mercs while in phosphors.
-Merc can't see
-smoke nade knocks out mercs.
Mercs have the gas mask rendering all most all but the vision.
perhaps spies could have a anti phosphorus suit that pervents them from being picked up on emf. Like the camo, it'd have to be activated and could give off a loud noise when used so the merc knows he removed the phospho glow. The spy would still be slowed.
QuoteWouldn't it be easier just to copy the slow affect for the smokenade for mercs, then apply it to the phospho nade?
Too extreme.
QuoteLol that's what I said here: "You basically get an insta nade everytime, which is bad."
I phrased it wrong. I meant that basically it would work like a frag grenade -- similar timer and all.
Quote from: Gawain on March 15, 2008, 01:02:32 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 12:26:28 AM
Gawain, why would you want to get away 3s earlier if you could hack 4s longer?
because the risk of getting killed isn't usually worth hacking some seconds longer? because even if you get away the merc sees which way you take? once again, you obviously have no clue. ::)
No no no, you got it all wrong Gawain. I mean with the trip wire you could still have that possible 4s to hack w/o being at risk. I'd risk just 1 life to get 1/3 objectives finished anyways. ESPECIALLY on aqua. Obviously I was giving my example without having a teammate around because well, I didn't mention a teammate at all. Comprehension problems maybe?
how about you have your mate covering you? how about you place a cam and use some timing skills? ::)
What if you don't have your teammate or if he is dead? Try placing a cam, hacking a terminal, and at the same time use timing skills to put the merc to sleep? Impossible, you can't use a cam WHILE hacking an objective. Not to mention the fact that mercs can easily counter sticky cams with gas mask. I forgot who asked, was it Westfall? Trip wires can be jumped over as well as shot out. It has a solid counter but mercs just have to be careful where they are walking and maybe check the floor sometimes.
So I'm a spy and i put two trip wires at the door. One at foot level, the other at chest height. The merc can't get through but I can dive through. Now because i'm a smart spy, the merc can't shoot them out with out using a grenade.
Then again, maybe he can shoot the line. He shoots out the bottom one to crouch underneath. I run up to him and knock him out. Or he shoots the top one only to land then get a cam to the face.
The trip wires act too much like spytraps for mercs. Mercs are slow enough already that when in pursuit of a spy they don't need to be slowed even more. If that's the case, then it means spy's aren't fast enough or the mercs are too fast. Which in my oppinion is not the case because then we'd have people complaining about slow spies or fast mercs, which again, isn't happening.
Setting up a tripwire trap, would take just as long as a cam trap. Sure you can't use cam while you hack, although, maybe that ability should be made. Maybe not the visual part, just the gas release. Binding a new button for gas release could ba all that's needed.
How did a topic about a slowing gadget for the merc turn into tripwires for the spy???
Stay on topic, noobs.
UWE AR
papa drop this stupid idea.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 05:42:39 PM
What if you don't have your teammate or if he is dead? Try placing a cam, hacking a terminal, and at the same time use timing skills to put the merc to sleep? Impossible, you can't use a cam WHILE hacking an objective. Not to mention the fact that mercs can easily counter sticky cams with gas mask. I forgot who asked, was it Westfall? Trip wires can be jumped over as well as shot out. It has a solid counter but mercs just have to be careful where they are walking and maybe check the floor sometimes.
if your teammate is dead or too stupid to cover you, you obviously aren't supposed to get an objective within a merc's range easily.
you can also use a cam while hacking if you place a bullet right next to the cam or listen to some characteristic sound etc, however the merc will use his mask >50% of the time, depending on the situation.
you're wrong, countering sticky cams isn't that easy as you gotta save your mask. if you have no mask left the spies can practically do everything (if they are aware of it, have smoke and cams and know what they're doing). you have to be way more careful for a cam around a corner than for some stupid wire.
your idea is also pretty gay because of this: on the one hand it takes longer to set it up, on the other hand it requires no timing skills whatsoever and serves only a single purpose that another gadget can already do.
What does that have to do with a slowing gadget for the mercs?
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 09:08:30 PM
What does that have to do with a slowing gadget for the mercs?
i was wondering the exact same thing XD
i guess the wire traps should slow down, but who cares.