Project Stealth

Ok folks so i went back and installed Pandora Tomorrow for the PC  and my findings with a stopwatch where these timings :

                         MERC
Phosphorus gernades  last just the cloud itself 17-18 seconds .

and green stuff on spy from phosphorous = 32 seconds .

and have screen shots to support my arguements .. plus phospherous goes threw boxes ..

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg151.imageshack.us%2Fimg151%2F3738%2Fphosperhoussmokepe1.jpg&hash=f4e8d89e26e428c3b6b1340f92ff67ccac344aec)

EQ Spytraps = 5 spytraps exactly

Gernades =  5 ...    Tazer range = N/A. ( some speculate 13 feet).
Phospherous gernades =5

Other features

Mercs Sniping view   :


(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg136.imageshack.us%2Fimg136%2F7838%2Fmercsnipeview2td7.jpg&hash=6a0082beb28549240fd7448e059cf554050b0378)



Mercs Reticule  :

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6083/ptmerc1zp5.jpg



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SPY

Smoke  lasts 9.4 seconds

Chaff lasts 10.7 secs

tazing a merc = 2.7 seconds



Spy elbowing a merc has like a tv whitenoise effect.. 


(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg147.imageshack.us%2Fimg147%2F2116%2Fmercelbowedhv5.jpg&hash=e3b1384a82f846317f929eda8a7d6c6919dbdb24)



Spies Nightvision :

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg182.imageshack.us%2Fimg182%2F5957%2Fspiesnightvisionwc0.jpg&hash=af14dd1aec57ec16049ae087de108145f78e4841)



_________________________________________________________________________________

Thanks to LiqUiD_133 for co-operating in this testing. . 

Ok?

yay grey nv ftw XD

QuotePhosphorus gernades  last just the cloud itself 17-18 seconds .
and green stuff on spy from phosphorous = 32 seconds

this is the only interesting result.

woah .. I like that grey nightvision soooo much better!

Also when you charge you screen goes a _little bit_ fuzzy.

Nice for doing the tests, but i have no idea how this will help anyone?!


PS: and i think the ct hud is way more pwnerage that PT, PT hud = clunky.

PTsnipe > CTsnipe.

THAT I can agree with.  I don't know why, but I think that scope looks better from PT.  But why take an unneeded aspect from those games when you can make your own kickass scope view?

That night vision hardly works lmao  :D  Why not call it grey vision?  The phosphorous nade should not be like PT's, because well, it sucked.  It should be at least useful - or not useless compared to the frag.

It WAS useful in PT.
You only had 6 gadgets to choose from:
Spy:
-Chaff
-Flash
-Smoke
-Snare
-SpyBullets
-Cams

Merc:
-Flares
-Nades
-Mines (proxy only)
-Phosphors
-Spytraps (no vertical, as someone said iirc)
-Tazer

So everything had to be at least somehow useful (maybe xcept flares...)

Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on March 19, 2008, 07:07:58 AM
It WAS useful in PT.
You only had 6 gadgets to choose from:

So everything had to be at least somehow useful (maybe xcept flares...)

I don't even follow your logic. Why does fewer gadgets mean everything has to be useful?

In PT, every merc took frags, tazer, mines, traps. Every single one, except complete noobs or servers where tazer was banned.

Phosphurs sucked. Bad. You know they're really awful when people claimed the best thing about em is that they could be mistaken for frags sometimes. I mean if that's the best thing you can say about a gadget is that it can be mistaken for something useful. That's just sad.

Correct me if im wrong, but did PT mines have Proxy and Laser?

blatant suggestion: remove poison mines from the game. they hardly killed any1 in ct and were used 50% as spytrap replacement.

Hmmm, I think you should just give em a boost and not remove them entirely.  Like what we are doing now with the phophorous nade.  ;)

why give them a boost if they aren't good for the gameplay? in most places, you can simply jump over them, in the few places you can't, they are op (especially if they get a boost).

Quote from: Rambo on March 19, 2008, 02:06:33 PM
blatant suggestion: remove poison mines from the game. they hardly killed any1 in ct and were used 50% as spytrap replacement.

This is probably the worst thought out idea that has been posted on these forums. They hardly killed any1.....are you serious. Maybe you have a hard time placing them, but they do a great deal of fucking up/damage/death to a spy and his team. Don't smoke before you post.

no they don't because good players usually don't run into them and if they do they get to med kits or their mate in time.

Quote from: Rambo on March 19, 2008, 09:17:47 PM
no they don't because good players usually don't run into them and if they do they get to med kits or their mate in time.

oh come on ..
1.) No game should ever be designed with only hard-core players in mind.
2.) It's not true, from my point of view, that poisons are useless.
3.) U R PRO, we know.

i'm not pro lolz

Quote from: Rambo on March 19, 2008, 08:22:54 PM
why give them a boost if they aren't good for the gameplay? in most places, you can simply jump over them, in the few places you can't, they are op (especially if they get a boost).

In the few places you can't jump over them you can just chaff them.  They are quite good tools against aggro players if you use them wisely.

Quote from: Papa Skull on March 19, 2008, 11:58:14 PM
In the few places you can't jump over them you can just chaff them.  They are quite good tools against aggro players if you use them wisely.

try chaffing the poison mines at storage (orph). poison against aggro players? roflcopter XD

Hold on, think about it.  Poison mines stringing through the middle of a room near objectives that you are guarding help a lot.  Ever try putting poison mines that go across pirates?  Then when the aggro spies come to attack they aren't expecting it and get hit.  A poisoned spy is going to panic and attempt to run away or find his partner.  It's pretty easy to kill a poisoned spy because of the rapid decrease in his health.

There are a FEW instances where chaff doesn't work, and even then, there are usually other places from which you can enter the room anyways. 

Making poison good vs aggro takes a single change. A 2 second animation to heal your partner.

Then poison becomes a threat to aggro players.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 20, 2008, 03:53:42 AM
Making poison good vs aggro takes a single change. A 2 second animation to heal your partner.

Then poison becomes a threat to aggro players.

k how did this get off topic to some garbage about poison mines =/.

lol aggro players run around with thermal all the time, no way they wouldn't see the poison mine. dunno which noobs u played with this crap tactic (ok it's aqua that explains a lot) XD

Quote from: Rambo on March 20, 2008, 12:00:35 AM

Quote from: Papa Skull on March 19, 2008, 11:58:14 PM
In the few places you can't jump over them you can just chaff them.  They are quite good tools against aggro players if you use them wisely.

try chaffing the poison mines at storage (orph). poison against aggro players? roflcopter XD

What's so difficult about getting around that mine?

spekkio can you jump in here? i'm tired of explaining basic stuff.

Quotetazing a merc = 2.7 seconds

is it the exact same in ct?
on a sidenote: it's fucking annoying that the host taze effect lasts 1s longer grrrr -.-

I think poisons are fine as it is. I found them very useful in ct. Careful spies might not die directly from poisons a lot, but most of the time it makes them waste time and gives away their position. Which is enough to make it a useful item.

it's the job of spytraps to make them give away their position, not the job of poison mines...

So? What if I use proxy mines to slow down spies, but not to kill them? Its not the job of miens to slow down. Is it wrong? Whats your point?

Quote from: Rambo on March 20, 2008, 01:59:08 PM
spekkio can you jump in here? i'm tired of explaining basic stuff.

You better explain yourself some basic stuff if you don't even know how to out-smart a poison mine. I wonder how you manage to play against enemies that move and think (mercs) if you cant handle a static mine.

Quote from: Rambo on March 20, 2008, 01:18:23 PM
lol aggro players run around with thermal all the time, no way they wouldn't see the poison mine. dunno which noobs u played with this crap tactic (ok it's aqua that explains a lot) XD

Well the poison mine is support in this case. Imagine your merc standing at the end of a corridor with a poison mine up. So the spies have trouble doing a rush against him without tripping the mine.

This is actually a bit more common in some place like greek (I've never really used them in pirates much). Lay down a poison at the entrance to greek. If a spy wants to rush you, he sets off the mine.

Right now, that doesn't mean much because spies can heal each other. But slow down the healing animation and now it becomes a big deal.

Quote from: Rambo on March 20, 2008, 02:10:18 PM
it's the job of spytraps to make them give away their position, not the job of poison mines...

Yes but if you go to a spy on a spy trap u can shoot him and he may not die, if u hear a running spy that has been poisoned a couple shots will kill him.  Spy traps are more for tracking, poisons are more to screw with the spy (i.e. make him run to med kit, and get blow up by proxy on the way or at it.)

if you use thermal right, there's no way you will run into a poison mine by accident. if you really wanna make it work this way, you gotta remove the laser in thermal.

Quote from: Rambo on March 20, 2008, 08:31:06 PM
if you use thermal right, there's no way you will run into a poison mine by accident. if you really wanna make it work this way, you gotta remove the laser in thermal.

Right. But the idea against aggro is to slow him down, or make his movements more predictable. An aggro spy is no threat if he can't get close to the merc, and poison mines if strategically placed could make that more difficult (again with the 1-2 second partner heal animation).

Rambo - don't you forget that there is no player that does not make any mistakes. You cannot always do the right thing. Everyone will eventually run into a well placed poison mine.

I don't think I need to explain anything now, everyone else has explained the use of poison mines against aggro quite well.

Quote from: Papa Skull on March 20, 2008, 10:56:40 PM
I don't think I need to explain anything now, everyone else has explained the use of poison mines against aggro quite well.

so why do you post this statement? oO

i still think that poison mines function-overlap with spytraps against stealth and have almost no use against aggro unless in some rare places on some maps.

Poison -> puts the solo-spy in a position where he MUST give away his position or he dies. Teamed spies would just heal eachother.
Spytrap -> automatically shows the spy, even when he's teamed (for just a second, but it does).

Quote from: Westfall-US on March 19, 2008, 09:02:20 PM
...but they do a great deal of fucking up/damage/death to a spy and his team. Don't smoke before you post.

i smoke before i do anything!  then again i am oblivious to what is goin' on around me =p

....sorta like this thread!  :D

Quote from: seefoo. on March 21, 2008, 03:03:14 AM

Quote from: Westfall-US on March 19, 2008, 09:02:20 PM
...but they do a great deal of fucking up/damage/death to a spy and his team. Don't smoke before you post.

i smoke before i do anything!  then again i am oblivious to what is goin' on around me =p

....sorta like this thread!  :D

I'm a hypocrite for even saying it ;)

Quote from: Rambo on March 21, 2008, 01:10:16 AM

Quote from: Papa Skull on March 20, 2008, 10:56:40 PM
I don't think I need to explain anything now, everyone else has explained the use of poison mines against aggro quite well.

so why do you post this statement? oO

i still think that poison mines function-overlap with spytraps against stealth and have almost no use against aggro unless in some rare places on some maps.

Did you purposely ignore the posts?  It's not a rare spot only thing, you just don't know where to use them.  They work well against aggro players, period.

papa, you're that low skilled that you're really in no position to tell me that i don't know where to use poison mines effectively. if you can jump over them, they work only against really uncareful players or if you combine them with a proxy. this leaves only some few unexpected spots or placment behind door frames/windows/vents.

Quote from: Westfall-US on March 19, 2008, 09:02:20 PM

Quote from: Rambo on March 19, 2008, 02:06:33 PM
blatant suggestion: remove poison mines from the game. they hardly killed any1 in ct and were used 50% as spytrap replacement.

This is probably the worst thought out idea that has been posted on these forums. They hardly killed any1.....are you serious. Maybe you have a hard time placing them, but they do a great deal of fucking up/damage/death to a spy and his team. Don't smoke before you post.

I agree with Rambo here -- poison mines are mostly useless. The only time that they are effective is when you are host and can hear them set off. The only time they are a nuisance to deal with is when the merc is host and can hear them set off. Otherwise it's like "oh poison" then you get healed by one of the 9,000 different methods available to you.

In other words, poisons almost never kill by themselves. They need a merc to come to shoot up the spy after it's tripped because you can ALWAYS reach a healthbox in time. This is the same function as spy traps -- tags spy, but the merc has to do the killing.

@Ramob: By your definition, laser-mines would be useless too .. o_O

They mostly are.

laser mines are quite useless because of the stupid delay, so that's easy to fix. but i can't see any good reason why poison mines should be in the game at all. they work in the same places spytraps do, and if they would actually be more deadly we have no idea how this would influence the gameplay.

Poison makes people panic. They work over longer ranges that both mines, and don't beep or make any visible sign (normal vision). They are similar to spy traps, but one tracks, and one kills.

Quote from: Rambo on March 21, 2008, 03:18:22 PM
papa, you're that low skilled that you're really in no position to tell me that i don't know where to use poison mines effectively. if you can jump over them, they work only against really uncareful players or if you combine them with a proxy. this leaves only some few unexpected spots or placment behind door frames/windows/vents.

Think what you must, play how you want, but not everything you think/play IS THE ONLY WAY TO THINK/PLAY, got it?  Just because you yourself can't find a use for them doesn't mean that everyone on the face of the earth has the same problem.  Get used to it.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 21, 2008, 05:42:16 PM
Otherwise it's like "oh poison" then you get healed by one of the 9,000 different methods available to you.

Oh, you mean the 2 ways that are available to you?  ::)  Lame exaggeration.  Don't forget it all depends on where you plant the poison mine that affects how useful it really is.

papa, i played this game over 1000h and i never had any problem with a poison mine in pirates...

Keyword:  "I"

From what I remember you aren't a hardcore aggro player are ya?

i used to be for the first 400h or so lolz

Quote from: Spekkio on March 21, 2008, 05:42:16 PM
I agree with Rambo here -- poison mines are mostly useless. The only time that they are effective is when you are host and can hear them set off. The only time they are a nuisance to deal with is when the merc is host and can hear them set off. Otherwise it's like "oh poison" then you get healed by one of the 9,000 different methods available to you.

In other words, poisons almost never kill by themselves. They need a merc to come to shoot up the spy after it's tripped because you can ALWAYS reach a healthbox in time. This is the same function as spy traps -- tags spy, but the merc has to do the killing.

I dunno guys. I mean poison mines do nothing agaisnt two spies together, but they're nice against spies that split up. Putting a poison across the seatunnel side entrance to greek in aqua is a very effective tactic to slow down spies. The spy doesn't know if the poison is on the left or right side, and must guess to chaff it. In either case he has to stop to chaff. While he can barrel through and try to hack anyway. he's going to tgive up a life doing that, and if he wants to run back to the medpack, that also hurts him.

Poison mines may well be a nuisance, but that nuisance sometimes wins games. Is it worth a life to start hacking an objective? Or would you rather rn for the medkit and waste time. Poison mines force those kinds of decisions.

Of course the coutner to poisons is traveling together.

Its funny this is being brought up though. As of now, I rarely use poison mines for anything because most spies in the game rush too much.

Poison does serve its purpose just fine, as some have already spoken of so I don't need to reiterate. Poison in Pirates in Aqua is a poor example. You guys need to let go of the garbage map approach ;) . Though how many of you put a poison in Greek and close the waterdoors? Whether it be from side to side or right through the doorway to greek, it does what it needs to. Ion made a good point. You begin to panic, which in turn makes you rush and act carelessly though you should realize you might have more time than you're thinking. Rambo, I'll put some cash on it that I could make you trip a poison in greek. "But its overpowering"...well, thats the luck of the draw isn't it? You have to realize mercs only get 3 of them bad boys. If your mate is near then you're saved for sure yea?

Think about other maps now. Factory, Station (first sector...wooooo), Orph, Steel Squat (only 4 heal points: 1 of which is spy spawn, another where the crane drops the box), Missle. How many times have you been picked by a poison mine and had to either defend or hack until you just happened to die because you didn't have a chance to seek health? If you say "very little" or "remotely" or anything close to this then you're a liar and you shouldn't be allowed to post because of your blasphemous alias-ego. 

greek entrance? another spot where you can't easily (afaik it's possible) jump over it. my point is that poison mines are strong in such places (a spytrap would be strong there, too) where you can't jump over it (or crouch/dive beneath it), and weak in the open because it's really easy to detect the mine and jump over it. so you either make it harder to detect or harder to jump over it.

You're wrong about that, you can't jump over it or go around it if you plant it right.  Ok, so there are a few little tables at the back of greek right?  Well if you shoot out the pots you can plant a poison on one of the tables and have it go right through the greek entrance.  Impossible to go around or jump over, and somewhat difficult to shoot/chaff.  It slows the spy down.  If a spy thinks he has a clear shot at Greek he doesn't because he'll have to deal with all the poison.  By the time he finally figured it out and disabled it you(the merc) are probably already on your way there.  I'm sure a lot of you know about this, but if you get creative the poison mines do their part.

could you actually read my post? i didn't say that the poison mines in greek are weak, i said that poison mines only work in very special places like door frames, stairs, vents etc

Quote from: Rambo on March 22, 2008, 07:14:04 PM
could you actually read my post? i didn't say that the poison mines in greek are weak, i said that poison mines only work in very special places like door frames, stairs, vents etc

As with every other mine.

nope, you can put proxy mines behind every corner/object.

Quote from: Rambo on March 22, 2008, 08:12:36 PM
nope, you can put proxy mines behind every corner/object.

You can put poison mines anywhere that has another wall across from it. They also have longer trip lasers that allow for further distances making them more applicable around a map.

Quote from: Rambo on March 22, 2008, 08:12:36 PM
nope, you can put proxy mines behind every corner/object.

That was a good thought. But, sadly, you fail.

well the point is, you can't see stuff behind corners! who would have thought that?
however, you can see a laser going across the room quite well.

Quote from: Rambo on March 22, 2008, 07:14:04 PM
could you actually read my post? i didn't say that the poison mines in greek are weak, i said that poison mines only work in very special places like door frames, stairs, vents etc

Well yeah, poisons work a lot better when they're hard to disable. The point of mines isn't to completely block up a route but rather to slow down a spy who tries it.

There are really three uses for mines.

a) The slow down mine: This mine is in place to cause the spy to waste time disabling. Whether it's a slow approach to a proxy, or firing a chaff to take out a poison mine. The mine slows you down.
b) The surprise mine: This is typically a laser or proxy that happens to be waiting for you in a place you'd rarely expect. You round a corner and boom. Dead. It's only likely to kill careless spies who move too fast, but it can work. 
c) The defense mine: This is a mine that is used to supplement a merc protecting a room. Usually against aggro spies. A poison mine placed at chest level would do this. The spy has to either duck to get under it (slowing him down) or get poisoned. In any case, the spy must choose between tripping the mine or giving the merc some free shots. In some cases it does the same as the slow down mine, but in this case the slow down purpose isn't to slow stealthy spies entering a room your'e not protecting but rather to deter aggro spies from closing with you.

Quote from: BurningDeath on March 18, 2008, 11:11:01 AM
woah .. I like that grey nightvision soooo much better!

Maybe but green is more realistic and splinter cell'ish.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 22, 2008, 11:20:06 PM

Quote from: Rambo on March 22, 2008, 07:14:04 PM
could you actually read my post? i didn't say that the poison mines in greek are weak, i said that poison mines only work in very special places like door frames, stairs, vents etc

Well yeah, poisons work a lot better when they're hard to disable. The point of mines isn't to completely block up a route but rather to slow down a spy who tries it.

There are really three uses for mines.

a) The slow down mine: This mine is in place to cause the spy to waste time disabling. Whether it's a slow approach to a proxy, or firing a chaff to take out a poison mine. The mine slows you down.
b) The surprise mine: This is typically a laser or proxy that happens to be waiting for you in a place you'd rarely expect. You round a corner and boom. Dead. It's only likely to kill careless spies who move too fast, but it can work. 
c) The defense mine: This is a mine that is used to supplement a merc protecting a room. Usually against aggro spies. A poison mine placed at chest level would do this. The spy has to either duck to get under it (slowing him down) or get poisoned. In any case, the spy must choose between tripping the mine or giving the merc some free shots. In some cases it does the same as the slow down mine, but in this case the slow down purpose isn't to slow stealthy spies entering a room your'e not protecting but rather to deter aggro spies from closing with you.

If my memory is correct, you could also disable the proxy mine with a chaff grenade.

not if it's overlapping the corner or facing you.

Quote from: Rambo on March 22, 2008, 09:43:31 PM
well the point is, you can't see stuff behind corners! who would have thought that?
however, you can see a laser going across the room quite well.

Who would've thought that if you used your ears you could hear a proxy across the room? You can hear things around corners too....wild i know. I guess we should cut proxies since you can hear them.

.... 8)

Quote from: Westfall-US on March 23, 2008, 12:31:40 AM

Quote from: Rambo on March 22, 2008, 09:43:31 PM
well the point is, you can't see stuff behind corners! who would have thought that?
however, you can see a laser going across the room quite well.

Who would've thought that if you used your ears you could hear a proxy across the room? You can hear things around corners too....wild i know. I guess we should cut proxies since you can hear them.

.... 8)

yeah .. lets also cut cams, since the mercs can use gasmask (no pro would ever get cammed), lets also cut smoke-nades for the same reason, along with bullets, because the mercs can take them away anyways, and camo, because no pro would get fooled by it .. oh .. lets not forget snares, come on, every pro can tell teh difference between a snare and a real spy.

And while we're at it, let's also cut spytraps for the mercs, because spies can easily see and disable them, and why not grenades, I mean, every pro should be able to run away from them. Well .. let's also cut the merc's guns, because pros don't get shot at all. yeah ..

/shutdown sarcasm.exe

Quote from: Rambo on March 22, 2008, 08:12:36 PM
nope, you can put proxy mines behind every corner/object.

lmao!

if it wasn't for soundloss (and some loud shooting/explosion noises), i would barelay run into any proxy mines, too. it's also np for aggro players with the uba-chaff going through walls.

Quote from: Rambo on March 23, 2008, 02:35:32 PM
if it wasn't for soundloss (and some loud shooting/explosion noises), i would barelay run into any proxy mines, too. it's also np for aggro players with the uba-chaff going through walls.

You would run into proxies still. Spies start to rush when they see time decrease, when objectives have been hacked, or when they are pressured, whether it be by merc or by the number of other factors that could prevent a spy from hacking a terminal. I've killed you on many a proxy mine before....on your server....that beeped....like this....beep.....beep....beep....beep etc.

haha, nice use of continuation periods lol  (that's what I call them btw)

A poison in greek slows down spies?!? Really?!?

Throw chaff at triple lazer ---> jump over poison ---> hack objective.

Not only that, but even if it did slow down spies it'd be serving the same function as a spytrap, which is the entire point of why poisons are unnecessary.

9,000 healing methods is an exaggeration, kinda. There is always a healthbox within reach on any of the stock maps when you get poisoned, and, failing that, you can have your partner heal you.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 05:18:34 AM
A poison in greek slows down spies?!? Really?!?

Throw chaff at triple lazer ---> jump over poison ---> hack objective.

Not only that, but even if it did slow down spies it'd be serving the same function as a spytrap, which is the entire point of why poisons are unnecessary.

9,000 healing methods is an exaggeration, kinda. There is always a healthbox within reach on any of the stock maps when you get poisoned, and, failing that, you can have your partner heal you.

You seem to forget that there are two mercs on the map with you, which can very well keep you from just running to the next medikit. You take a few shots and you don't make it there alive!

Kinda?  There's 2 ways!  1 of the ways doesn't always work, and the other way isn't always possible.  To call it easy is an amazing exaggeration.  Did you ever think that spy traps do the poison mines job?  It goes both ways.  There are uses for both, and whether they perform them in similar ways is a different unimportant story.  It just gives you options.  Don't take the poison option if you don't want to.

bd, spekkio knows ct way better than you, so stfu.

papa: "don't use it if you don't like it" is the dumbest point one can make.

Quote from: FugitiveSF on March 22, 2008, 11:38:54 PM

Quote from: BurningDeath on March 18, 2008, 11:11:01 AM
woah .. I like that grey nightvision soooo much better!

Maybe but green is more realistic and splinter cell'ish.

Actually i think White NV is more commonly used in RL, as its easier to see with IMO.

Green is easier for the eyes.

i don't care what's more common in rl, the white nv just looks way better. pt style ftw.

Quote from: Rambo on March 24, 2008, 02:02:42 PM
i don't care what's more common in rl, the white nv just looks way better. pt style ftw.

QFE
Also, the NV blur is superb to CT's lack of it.

QuoteYou seem to forget that there are two mercs on the map with you, which can very well keep you from just running to the next medikit. You take a few shots and you don't make it there alive!

Are you following the thread? That is exactly the point -- poisons work like spy traps. They get tripped and the merc has to come shoot the spy. At least spy traps tell you where the spy is.

Now, tell me, when you're not host and your partner isn't host, how do you even know that the spy hit the poison in the first place?

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 02:57:30 PM

QuoteYou seem to forget that there are two mercs on the map with you, which can very well keep you from just running to the next medikit. You take a few shots and you don't make it there alive!

Are you following the thread? That is exactly the point -- poisons work like spy traps. They get tripped and the merc has to come shoot the spy. At least spy traps tell you where the spy is.

Now, tell me, when you're not host and your partner isn't host, how do you even know that the spy hit the poison in the first place?

How does being host or not have anything to do with this? o0

Yeah, i don't get the connection.

only the host hears poison mines shooting the dart.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 02:57:30 PM
Are you following the thread? That is exactly the point -- poisons work like spy traps. They get tripped and the merc has to come shoot the spy. At least spy traps tell you where the spy is.

Now, tell me, when you're not host and your partner isn't host, how do you even know that the spy hit the poison in the first place?

Ah well .. I'm sorry, I haven't really been following the discussion and was just throwing that in. But I'm of the opinion that poisons should stay in. We'll get new maps in PS, so there'll be no 9000 healing methods, add to that a limited amount of spies healing each other and poison-mines get quite useful. ;)

Quote from: Rambo on March 24, 2008, 01:58:47 PM
bd, spekkio knows ct way better than you, so stfu.

*smiles*

Who are you that you think you need to defend Spek anyways? If I was him, i would dissociate from you as far as I could.  And who are you to speak up like that? You better remember the games we had yesterday - I won't go into detail because I don't want this to get ugly.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 02:57:30 PM

QuoteYou seem to forget that there are two mercs on the map with you, which can very well keep you from just running to the next medikit. You take a few shots and you don't make it there alive!

Are you following the thread? That is exactly the point -- poisons work like spy traps. They get tripped and the merc has to come shoot the spy. At least spy traps tell you where the spy is.

Now, tell me, when you're not host and your partner isn't host, how do you even know that the spy hit the poison in the first place?

When a poison dart is fired, the merc who planted it's aimer turns red for a second.

Quote from: BurningDeath on March 24, 2008, 03:55:45 PM

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 02:57:30 PM
Are you following the thread? That is exactly the point -- poisons work like spy traps. They get tripped and the merc has to come shoot the spy. At least spy traps tell you where the spy is.

Now, tell me, when you're not host and your partner isn't host, how do you even know that the spy hit the poison in the first place?

Ah well .. I'm sorry, I haven't really been following the discussion and was just throwing that in. But I'm of the opinion that poisons should stay in. We'll get new maps in PS, so there'll be no 9000 healing methods, add to that a limited amount of spies healing each other and poison-mines get quite useful. ;)

Quote from: Rambo on March 24, 2008, 01:58:47 PM
bd, spekkio knows ct way better than you, so stfu.

*smiles*

Who are you that you think you need to defend Spek anyways? If I was him, i would dissociate from you as far as I could.  And who are you to speak up like that? You better remember the games we had yesterday - I won't go into detail because I don't want this to get ugly.

Haha, i was lolling for most of those games...

Quote from: Kubanator on March 24, 2008, 06:29:35 PM

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 02:57:30 PM

QuoteYou seem to forget that there are two mercs on the map with you, which can very well keep you from just running to the next medikit. You take a few shots and you don't make it there alive!

Are you following the thread? That is exactly the point -- poisons work like spy traps. They get tripped and the merc has to come shoot the spy. At least spy traps tell you where the spy is.

Now, tell me, when you're not host and your partner isn't host, how do you even know that the spy hit the poison in the first place?

When a poison dart is fired, the merc who planted it's aimer turns red for a second.

No it doesnt (not that ive noticed in my many years of playing). But it should, that'd solve all problems:)

Quote from: Rambo on March 24, 2008, 02:02:42 PM
i don't care what's more common in rl, the white nv just looks way better. pt style ftw.

That's funny because if I remember correctly, you liked the red-blue style of thermal vision because it was used more commonly in real life.   ;)

But I do agree, white looks better.

My host comment has the following significance:

-Only the host hears the poison mine get tripped. Clients never hear it.
-The red reticle thing is only when a poison KILLS a spy, not when he trips it.

Without hearing a poison mine, there is no way for you to know a spy tripped it unless you saw him do it, in which case you probably would've killed him without help from the mine anyway. Therefore, you have no way of knowing that you should be seeking and shooting at a spy as he makes his bee line to the healthpack(s).

No wonder you guys think poisons are useful -- you don't even know the mechanics of the game.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 08:59:04 PM

Without hearing a poison mine, there is no way for you to know a spy tripped it unless you saw him do it, in which case you probably would've killed him without help from the mine anyway. Therefore, you have no way of knowing that you should be seeking and shooting at a spy as he makes his bee line to the healthpack(s).

Well consider that the spy is running towards the medpack. That's making a lot of noise and likely forces him to abandon his hacking attempt, and through sound, signals his position to the merc. So I've made the spy abandon a hacking attempt and give away his position by running. Honestly, I'm okay with this happening. it slows the spy down, and makes him have to reinfiltrate the map all over again.

That's still pretty useful.

There are a few levels where this isn't true, like clubhouse, but that's just because the clubhouse medkits are placed in awful locations. Medkits should never be right next to an objective. Move the medkits to the wall near the electrical system hack and the problem is fixed.

Having the healthpack next to an objective is a blessing and a curse when it comes to poisons. If they're not near objectives, you won't be near them when the spy trips them.

if one hears poison mines going off, they overlap even more with traps in function which is a bad thing. if they make no noise, they better kill the spies in no time to be effective in non-lame spots. both ways, i can't really see in which way the gameplay benefits from poison mines.

Already been explained, you just refuse to see it.

Quote from: Rambo on March 24, 2008, 11:09:18 PM
if one hears poison mines going off, they overlap even more with traps in function which is a bad thing. if they make no noise, they better kill the spies in no time to be effective in non-lame spots. both ways, i can't really see in which way the gameplay benefits from poison mines.

And in which way would it benefit if they were taken out? Right, it wouldn't at all, so they'll stay for sure.

All mines that have been shown have a large chance of being in.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 08:59:04 PM
My host comment has the following significance:

-Only the host hears the poison mine get tripped. Clients never hear it.
-The red reticle thing is only when a poison KILLS a spy, not when he trips it.

Without hearing a poison mine, there is no way for you to know a spy tripped it unless you saw him do it, in which case you probably would've killed him without help from the mine anyway. Therefore, you have no way of knowing that you should be seeking and shooting at a spy as he makes his bee line to the healthpack(s).

No wonder you guys think poisons are useful -- you don't even know the mechanics of the game

gg no re, step aside  bandwagon users and let the PT Vets handle the technical aspects of the game 
interms of balance / mechanics , cause sure all you people think of great ideas, but never interms if things are gunna balance out.. , like sure great if you have an idea, cause ill quote b1nary on this

" one idea could spawn into a great idea or a series" and i believe this entirely but BALANCE IS THE KEY.

cause it could work out for the spy , but then it may not work for the merc to defend against it or vise versa, and im sorry , but some of you want DM in the game.. what sickens me is to see the best of maps

be ruined to the ground by such a concept even a two year old can pick up.. and DM has ruined everything to this day even in chaos theory , sure i don't mind playing DM once and a while but ill say its nothing like Pandora days ..12 midnight 1-4 am , that you have more story servers then dm..

cause it seems ANY time you put a map ie. Deftech its automatically coming to the assumption its a Deathmatch map, when id say its the most intense stealth based map cause its soo condensed .

and hard as hell with decent mercs and tired of these new damn kids always asking NOoob med, Pro, seriously shove your head through a brick wall and play the game =/ !?!  :-\


sorry i know i probably said this before sometime or another and history repeats itself , but its really ticked me off =/

I, and I assume many others, have no clue wtf you just said.

Maybe we could make poison mines shoot 3 diffent poisons at random, and when you go to the medkit or your teammate, he or you would have to pick the corosponding antidote. If it's wrong, nothing happens. If it's right, you're cured and have full health.

Guess game? 1/3 chance of survival? It would be -poison spam-.

bad idea. as few random stuff as possible.

Agreed, not a good idea. But, poison does help. It just needs to be implemented better.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 08:59:04 PM
My host comment has the following significance:

-Only the host hears the poison mine get tripped. Clients never hear it.
-The red reticle thing is only when a poison KILLS a spy, not when he trips it.

Without hearing a poison mine, there is no way for you to know a spy tripped it unless you saw him do it, in which case you probably would've killed him without help from the mine anyway. Therefore, you have no way of knowing that you should be seeking and shooting at a spy as he makes his bee line to the healthpack(s).

No wonder you guys think poisons are useful -- you don't even know the mechanics of the game.

I still think poisons are useful and I know all of this that you're speaking of. Better maps will help this problem. Plus whatever little fixes to the actual mine.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 24, 2008, 10:49:31 PM
Having the healthpack next to an objective is a blessing and a curse when it comes to poisons. If they're not near objectives, you won't be near them when the spy trips them.

I'm honestly not sure how it's a blessing at all, as it just helps the spy. Having a medkit near an objective never really helps you. I mean, if the medkit was farther away, the spy trips the poison then runs. And then you hear him. If the medkit is close to it, he trips the poison and he runs, only he doens't have to run far, he heals then he hacks. Hell, he could even stay crouched while he goes to the medkit. Otherwise he has to run away and get completely out of position and doesn't have time to hack.

Medkits near objectives also make aggro easier as well. Really doesn't help the merc at all and makes poison useless. About the only time it's a blessing is when your spy round comes up.

Quote from: Ion.67 on March 25, 2008, 12:22:52 AM
I, and I assume many others, have no clue wtf you just said.

You assumed correctly lmao!

On xbox version I believe that the red reticule appears when you hit the spy with the poison, but I haven't played the xbox version in a few months so I forget.   :-\  That is one way it could make it a bit more useful.

Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 24, 2008, 11:55:04 PM

gg no re, step aside  bandwagon users and let the PT Vets handle the technical aspects of the game 
interms of balance / mechanics , cause sure all you people think of great ideas, but never interms if things are gunna balance out.. , like sure great if you have an idea, cause ill quote b1nary on this

PT Vets handle what?? Here comes this fool blabberin what he feels needs to be preached. I would never let you handle any time of game balance or mechanics. You also need to start speaking some damn proper english so we can understand you. PT Vets handle technical aspects....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....how far is your head up your ass?

Tsk tsk, elitist garbage.  Lmao at Agent. "Like sure great if you have an idea"  :D :D :D  You know how many ideas are going into PS?  All balance suggestions ARE ideas agent.

I'd agree poisons will rarely ever kill a spy by itself. The merc has to have delt some damage or places proxies to back them up.

Sorry just found this on a pic site and thought of you agent...
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crossfitnyc.org%2FHeadUpAss-Naked.jpg&hash=cfcde42074332aeed279b9ed273ae23a9044715f)
;D
If people wanna play DM, let them play DM. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean no-one does besides are you so ar'tarded that you can't see if you don't put DM in people will start playing it anyway in gametypes like story?

*deep sigh*
C'mon, bit more new-user-friendly please.

^
Heh, I was waiting for that post ;)

K, I can't tell if that's real or not, but I don't want to look/concentrate hard enough to figure it out.

DM has been discussed bazillions of times.  I don't feel like talking about it really, anyone else?

there's not much to talk about dm right now. i think we all agree that dm sucks and all we gotta do is find a way to keep the dm players from joining story mode servers; our best solution so far is to provide a dm game mode. unless somebody  can come up with a better solution, there's no need to discuss dm again.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 22, 2008, 11:20:06 PMThere are really three uses for mines.

a) The slow down mine: This mine is in place to cause the spy to waste time disabling. Whether it's a slow approach to a proxy, or firing a chaff to take out a poison mine. The mine slows you down.
b) The surprise mine: This is typically a laser or proxy that happens to be waiting for you in a place you'd rarely expect. You round a corner and boom. Dead. It's only likely to kill careless spies who move too fast, but it can work. 
c) The defense mine: This is a mine that is used to supplement a merc protecting a room. Usually against aggro spies. A poison mine placed at chest level would do this. The spy has to either duck to get under it (slowing him down) or get poisoned. In any case, the spy must choose between tripping the mine or giving the merc some free shots. In some cases it does the same as the slow down mine, but in this case the slow down purpose isn't to slow stealthy spies entering a room your'e not protecting but rather to deter aggro spies from closing with you.

This pretty much sums up all that needs to be said at the moment, there as so many people who play or have played SvM, and we all have our own ways of handling a game, our own stratergy. It's important to have as much choice as possible for a player but not so much that you completely remove peoples consideration for other gadgets.

I do agree the poison should be removed though, how could you possibly in your right mind really want to use it. It's a weak Laser Mine, the laser mine, you run through the laser and BAM your dead and the Mercs are at an advantage. The Poison mine is exactly the same! Only it sets off a little puff of gas and give you an extra 10 second to live! Best part is you can still survive by healing yourself... it's fucking retarded, just use a laser and he's dead straight away, that's all there is to it.

I would also scrap the Spy Detector shitty gadget in CT (The Plantable Radar) because that seriously is fucking useless, nobody would choose that over a spy trap in their right mind. Reason is the plantable radar, if you set it off, it only sends a signal from it's position, spy trap has all the same properties except it plants the radar on YOU, the only upside with a plantable radar is you can't remove it from your friend, but you can just remove it from where it has been placed and once it has been set off, that is blatantly obvious.

But as for staying on topic, those timings are helpful and in my opinion the Phosophone Grenade would be brilliant, if implented correctly. I can't see how they could be though. When you shoot a grenade at a player it's because you know he's there, shooting a phosophone wastes time when you could shoot a frag and kill him or shoot him to death. You already know he's there, no need to clarify it. If you shooting it randomly, unless some retarded spy has impaired hearing he'll always know the cloud is there, even in thermal vision, and when not in that you can easily see it's lovely extremely obvious green cloud of smoke.

Quotethere's not much to talk about dm right now. i think we all agree that dm sucks and all we gotta do is find a way to keep the dm players from joining story mode servers; our best solution so far is to provide a dm game mode. unless somebody  can come up with a better solution, there's no need to discuss dm again.

^Agreed

stonecoldkilla: presence detectors have their use: they are hard to see and can't be removed after giving alarm. you also think wrong about the proper use of ph nades: they don't work like nades, like fake nades at best. you gotta use them differently: cut away fleeing routes with it, place dust on bottlenecks, slow down aggro spies, etc. you will hardly get a kill with frags against good players (using eax) anyways unless you make long distance shots or bounce them trickly. frags are rather a tool to make the spy gtfo and give you a time window to shoot him or have your mate arrive in time.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 02, 2008, 04:35:57 PM
I do agree the poison should be removed though, how could you possibly in your right mind really want to use it. It's a weak Laser Mine, the laser mine, you run through the laser and BAM your dead and the Mercs are at an advantage. The Poison mine is exactly the same! Only it sets off a little puff of gas and give you an extra 10 second to live! Best part is you can still survive by healing yourself... it's fucking retarded, just use a laser and he's dead straight away, that's all there is to it.

The poison mine has a much better range. It can be balanced by adjusting the range/damage.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 02, 2008, 04:35:57 PMI would also scrap the Spy Detector shitty gadget in CT (The Plantable Radar) because that seriously is fucking useless, nobody would choose that over a spy trap in their right mind. Reason is the plantable radar, if you set it off, it only sends a signal from it's position, spy trap has all the same properties except it plants the radar on YOU, the only upside with a plantable radar is you can't remove it from your friend, but you can just remove it from where it has been placed and once it has been set off, that is blatantly obvious.

You need to pass an exact location in order to trigger a spy trap. Presence detectors can cover a larger area, and are harder to see. Balance variables: range and visibility(size).

Quote from: Cyntrox on April 02, 2008, 05:30:39 PM
The poison mine has a much better range. It can be balanced by adjusting the range/damage.

which makes it come way closer to spytraps.

Quote from: Rambo on April 02, 2008, 05:59:19 PM

Quote from: Cyntrox on April 02, 2008, 05:30:39 PM
The poison mine has a much better range. It can be balanced by adjusting the range/damage.

which makes it come way closer to spytraps.

No it doesn't. Spy traps keep the location of the spy. Poison mines take away life and possibly kill the spy. Poison mines also make the spy act frantic and careless. A change in range wouldn't result in the poison mines making a transition to spy traps....that doesn't make sense.

@Stone: go ahead and plant a laser mine and watch how fast some1 can go through it without getting killed. Thats something that will be fixed for PS...the delay from triggering the laser to the actual explosion.

There's a clear distinction between laser mines (insta-explosion), poison mines (large range) and trackers (location) and Proximity Detectors (passive security)

I agree Westfall, but for PS when we can balance these things I haven't got a clue what a poison mine is going to do. You touched on the laser mine point already, I know it can be used for killing a mercanary and such but in general a tripping a laser mine results in death, regardless of its delay, which will be fixed in PS anyway. As for Cyntrox, you can talk about "But it has a longer range in CT"... but are we not discussing what we should implent to PS here? Or are we discussing CT? PS is the focus here.

I didn't realise you couldn't remove presence detectors by the way sorry, but either way, they are much less useful in my opinion, and that's all im stating, my opinion, based with the facts that to my knowledge are true. As for your argument about Phoso grenades Rambo... BS to be honest, they are two grenades, one kills, one marks, whichever you want to take is fine by me but taking a Phosophone grenade is completely and utterly useless.

As for the better range thing, again your right, I really havent played CT in ages sorry :P. But again we are talking about PS and the main thing we are trying to adress here, is what we include and what we don't include, and if I were to take everything into consideration in a enviroment we can change what we want to change, improve range, improve damage, you name it, I would scrap the posion mine, the Phoso grenade, and the Spy Detector without a shadow of a doubt.

Again Rambo, Phosophones really are no use :P. If I wanted to cut off a spy, and all of the other things you have mentioned, I would be much happier at having a chance of killing him in the process, sure you can place dust on bottlenecks, but again if he's an aggro spy, he doesnt care about being seen, and I can't say being a stealthy spy myself, that I would ever after trying so hard to be stealthy not notice a big flourescent cloud of gas around a corner :P.

Plus you don't generally shoot Phoso's at bottlenecks anyway, because if you have a mine like you usually do on bottlenecks, you don't want to shy the Spy away from that point now do you? Plus you should never rely on using something to hold off a spy until a mate arrives, he's got better things to do like guard where you aren't guarding, with the exception of each spy being in your presence. Why hold a spy off with a cloud of dust when you want him to come into view so you can shoot him in the fucking head :P.

ph nades (with the properties i suggested) would help against aggro: they slow down the spy which gives you more time to shoot at him or run after him and allow you to track him easily with emf through smoke. he also has to run away from the nade as it could be a frag, and after it turns out to be a ph nade the dust cloud stays there while the frag effect only lasts for a split second. it's not that 100% aggro is working (100% stealth isn't working either), on some point you gotta hide. 100% aggro is only possible on a map with lots of safe zones or with host advantage on a laggy server or when you are clearly superior to the opponents.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 02, 2008, 10:21:22 PMAs for Cyntrox, you can talk about "But it has a longer range in CT"... but are we not discussing what we should implent to PS here? Or are we discussing CT? PS is the focus here.

1) It's not a matter of CT or PS, if the poison mine in PS is to resemble the one in CT in any way what so ever, it has to have longer range. Taking away the longer range is like taking away the rifle's ability to shoot - it is the main use. Don't try to trivialize that.
2) frvge already confirmed that poison mine has longer range. Therefore, I see no reason to doubt that it will be that way in PS.
3) The poison mine model has already been made as far as I remember. That is, if nothing more, a extremely strong indication that the mine will be in PS.

Think of the laser-vs-poison like:
doorways and narrow corridors/rooms (max distance approx twice the length of the Spy?): laser
longer distances (like 5-6 times the range of laser): poison

So a bit like they should be used already...

I know what you mean Cyntrox, but you have mis-understood me. Im saying it's pointless bring up shortcomings to a device that are secondary properties of it when deciding what gadgets to include in PS, because they are going to be toyed with to our satisfaction anyway. The primary properties of a gadget are the ideas we decide to implent.

Poison mines are delayed, uncertain death. Laser mines are certain death, and that's what im building my opinion upon. Im not saying a poison mine shouldn't have longer range and stuff anyway, all im saying is that these properties are useless discussing when deciding on gadgets to include, that's for when we decide how to improve these gadgets. That's not what im trying to do.

As for the Phoso grenades subject again, I still fully disagree, frags slow down a spy, you run away from a grenade because it could be a frag which leads to your death. Thats like saying you run away from bullets because they are going to penetrate your body, those are inevitable. If you run away from something you have a chance of escpaing it's range, and you also have a chance of being submerged in it.

Frag grenade in range = Almost certain death.
Phoso grenade in range = I r liek Hulk! Can be seen in the dark and leave footprints but what kinda of person walks around in the open when they've just been dyed green, unless he wants to obliviate everything in his path anyway in which case it doesn't matter, much like an aggro spy.

1 - 0 to Frag.
                       
Frag grenade out of range = Pushes a spy away.
Phoso grenade out of range = A green cloud of dust puffs out of a magical little container. Much like a tree, we can run around this small obstacle simply and it poses no sinister threat making this area fairly safe, which you can use to your advantage by hiding in, as your time as the hulk will run out just as quickly as the gas cloud deterioates.

2 - 0 to Frag.

Also I know the poison model has been confirmed, and it's a great looking gadget. But as much as I like it, I dont see it's benefit. Edit - Just seen your comment Frvge, although your information is correct theres this issue again, why not just make the laser mine have a longer distance, that would be my decision. Although now I think about it, theres a certain level of choice people want to have and maybe you want to balance things so in longer distances you have a compromise, in which case now I consider the situation with a fuller understanding... maybe the poison mine isn't such a bad idea after all, yeah you might aswell include that actually. *Puts on Dunce Hat* :D.

Moving back to Phosophone grenades, I never talked about an 100% Aggro/Stealth approach. You have a balance of the elements you use. I discussed how in general a stealthy spy would "Never after trying so hard to be stealthy not notice a big flourescent cloud of gas around a corner". I also spoke of how an Aggro spy may, but im talking about two different things and just like you pointed out, most people are balanced towards one style more than another, and thats the balance you have to consider when creating gadgets. In both cases (Aggro and Stealth) the Phosophone grenade proves to be completely useless.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 02, 2008, 11:04:51 PM
I know what you mean Cyntrox, but you have mis-understood me. Im saying it's pointless bring up shortcomings to a device that are secondary properties of it when deciding what gadgets to include in PS, because they are going to be toyed with to our satisfaction anyway. The primary properties of a gadget are the ideas we decide to implent.

Poison mines are delayed, uncertain death. Laser mines are certain death, and that's what im building my opinion upon. Im not saying a poison mine shouldn't have longer range and stuff anyway, all im saying is that these properties are useless discussing when deciding on gadgets to include, that's for when we decide how to improve these gadgets. That's not what im trying to do.

A laser mine is not certain death if the spy is too far away from it.

And how is range a secondary property?

Well primary properties are the idea of the whole device itself.

Laser Mine:

Trip-activated mine. (Laser, can be seen in Thermal Vison).
Almost certain death to any human tripping the mine.
Works at fairly long distances.

Poison Mine:

Trip-activated mine. (Laser, can be seen in Thermal Vison).
Poisons any human tripping the mining. (Can be healed using a Partner or Health Kit).
Works at fairly long distances.

These primary properties are what we look at when deciding what gadgets to include, which is the stronger mine? Laser.

You seem to miss the point that laser's range is like 5 meters (deadly in like... 2.5 meters range, hurt in the final 2.5 meters).
A poison is always a hit, up to 30 meters (6 times the lasers maximal area of effect). Downside is that the Spy can heal himself.

Making up the numbers on the spot, but you get the idea.

QuoteI do agree the poison should be removed though, how could you possibly in your right mind really want to use it. It's a weak Laser Mine, the laser mine, you run through the laser and BAM your dead and the Mercs are at an advantage. The Poison mine is exactly the same! Only it sets off a little puff of gas and give you an extra 10 second to live! Best part is you can still survive by healing yourself... it's fucking retarded, just use a laser and he's dead straight away, that's all there is to it.

Wrong.  So wrong.  A laser mine can kill you from only a few meters (if that) away.  A poison on the other hand, can kill you from over 10 meters, even though it takes longer.  Understand?

I would also scrap the Spy Detector shitty gadget in CT (The Plantable Radar) because that seriously is fucking useless, nobody would choose that over a spy trap in their right mind. Reason is the plantable radar, if you set it off, it only sends a signal from it's position, spy trap has all the same properties except it plants the radar on YOU, the only upside with a plantable radar is you can't remove it from your friend, but you can just remove it from where it has been placed and once it has been set off, that is blatantly obvious.
Also wrong.  Putting one by a laptop is a good strategy because it does:
1) Usually scare the spy away from the terminal.
2) Sends the spy in a panic, easy kill most of the time.
3) Lets you know he's around there.
A spy trap, while still useful in its own right, has a pretty limited use.  They have to trip the laser and they are MUCH easier to see, even out of visions.

How long exactly have you been playing SvM?  Sorry if that comes across as offensive or rude, I don't mean to be either.  But it seems like you don't understand some of the main mechanics of the merc gadgets.  Seriously, I don't mean to be offensive but I'm just curious.

If that is stone that you quoted, then a hell of a lot longer than you.  He was the leader of the UMP project!

Quote from: Aj on April 03, 2008, 12:59:54 AM
If that is stone that you quoted, then a hell of a lot longer than you.  He was the leader of the UMP project!

Thought that was scope.

My bad.

Stone, scope, kinda similar. :-p

He's still been playing since the PT days, I believe.

stonecoldkilla: what you don't get is that the dust cloud won't be small "like a tree" and that even stealthy spies are forced to give away their position by hacking objectives etc and they gotta flee when a merc is coming. ph nades are not meant to replace frags or traps, but to help tagging and slowing down a fleeing spy. if you actually played the game, you would also know that frags don't kill good players that often (except insta frags, tricky bounced or unheard frags due to soundloss/no eax/noise).

frvge: i'm still not convinced that poison mines add to the gameplay. i have several reasons:
-the trigger mechanism (and the range) works exactly like spy traps
-if poison mines get more deadly we have no idea what it will do to the gameplay because they aren't exactly deadly in ct
-poison mines are only strong in places you can't jump over (they are really easy to see flipping on tv every once in a while); in that places, they are op because of the big range (same problem with traps)
-mines already belong to the strong gadget category because they kill, no need to give the merc 3 choices instead of 2 (just remember how well mines worked in pt (except no number limit))
it would be nice if you could actually consider these points and not just state something naive like <it has it's uses and gives the player more choice so it's good for the gameplay>

Papa your curiosity, don't worry mate im not going to get offended I'm just trying to help :P.

Now to start off simple let me explain my experience, I played PT all the way through on PS2 and became one of the best players in the PS2 Community, although while not trying to be offensive, that's not saying much :P. Played CT for a bit on PS2 then moved to PC where, I had played very badly for over a year, made the worst name for myself possible by releasing shitty vid after shitty video and then UBI Banned me because people complained about my videos (not a good choice on their part to ban me but there you go).

This is were I am now, 2 years on I've started playing again and I feel although im not of a very high standard just yet, I vastly more knowledgable and aware of the game mechanics.

But this is all just talk, why do I stand by my points?

"Wrong.  So wrong.  A laser mine can kill you from only a few meters (if that) away.  A poison on the other hand, can kill you from over 10 meters, even though it takes longer.  Understand?"

Yes, but this is why posts should be fully analysed because if you don't, you wont understand my conclusion. You could use that argument if I hadn't said later I am not here to talk numbers. I am here to talk ideas and the ideas that should be included are the ones that are going to have the most use in Project Stealth. Also if you read further on, I take into account that if we balance distances of the mines accountability like CT has, then maybe Poison Mines have their use.

I left this paragraph in because I wanted people to see the bigger picture, this is why you can't just skim through what someone has said, Skull :P.

"Also wrong.  Putting one (Spy Detector) by a laptop is a good strategy because it does:
1) Usually scare the spy away from the terminal.
2) Sends the spy in a panic, easy kill most of the time.
3) Lets you know he's around there.
A spy trap, while still useful in its own right, has a pretty limited use.  They have to trip the laser and they are MUCH easier to see, even out of visions."

This one, hmmm :P. Now that I take into account extra facts I have learned about this gadget, again I could be wrong, around certain control points of a map (Keypads, Doors, Laptop, Cooperative positions) this could be useful. As for some of your points though, a spy trap does all of these things when tripped, and a Spy Detector can be seen pretty much as easily as a spy trap in my experiences of the game (Fairly long, as explained above, although I only play games occassionally nowadays). Also, hacking the thing itself alerts the merc to your presense, and although in theory your point about the detector scaring off the spies is correct... I beleive after a few weeks people would learn to just hack anyway, you have nothing to lose, it's done the same job you would have done by pressing the 'Use' button anyway so who gives? Key points are the only places Spy Detectors have much use though, and a Spy Trap has uses over much larger scales. But again, the question is choice and for that reason, I guess Presence Detectors are a fairly good choice and, you have me done and dusted on that subject :D.

Okay now that Rambo has posted, a tree was what I found to be a fairly humourous way of expressing my opinion of just the kind of threat a Phosophone grenade really is, I thought that was obvious. Over a whole map, a Dust Cloud has to be one of the least threatening obstacles to avoid, a small priority, giving the illusion, and the solid fact it's a small factor to the games stage. But if a spy is hacking an object, or as you rather descriptively put it, "etc.", there is never, ever a situation where Phosophone grenades have any advantagous use whatsoever. If a spy is hacking, nade him, he has about a 35/100 chance of escaping. He's escaping through a vent, yeah lets Phosophone the guy where I cant see him! Oh umm, I coulda just killed that guy with a frag... He's running to the objective lets phosophone him when I know fully well where he is going! Oh umm, I coulda just killed that guy with a frag... your respone to this is probably "But meyhbeh it will be scarwee and the spy is gona runz to the venty hole plex?" a frag grenade is a much more threatening, sinister object that will do the same job and possibly kill/injure the spy in the process. - That was an exeggeration of your writing but we are getting into the post now, an inside joke might lighten the mood a bit, im not purposely insulting you don't fret :P.

I never said PH nades are meant to replace frags or traps (Mines, I assume seeing as that's what I actually said), but that's what you seem to imply, the way you approach this is "Phosophones does all of this, but if you actually played the game, you would also know that frags don't kill good players that often". So should I take Phosophones instead? Hell no! How many times playing PT (oh wait, I think im showing I actually DO play the game...) have you seen a Phosophone grenade used to any avail? None? Thought so. Why? They suck fucking ass and that is all there is to it.

How many frags have you seen be used, killing players, clearing rooms, pushing spys from places that once were a safe zone? I don't have any statistics but I can assume every person who has ever played CT or even PT, has had atleast one kill with a frag, even against a good player, tally that up against how many Phosophones have helped a guy with his game plan :). We want to help new players and every player settle into the game, not confuse them further by fucking things up with the worst gadget invented for the game.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 02, 2008, 11:14:04 PM
These primary properties are what we look at when deciding what gadgets to include, which is the stronger mine? Laser.

Then why is laser the least used mine in the game?

I completely disagree with that point. Regardless, sum up those facts and the laser comes out on top, have a difference of opinion? Fine but at the present I see the advantages being with the laser mine, but PLEASE stop being pedantic (not just you, anyone who's replying to this thread in general) because if you read what I say, I eventually came to the conclusion the Poision Mine is a good addition, jesus christ :P.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 03, 2008, 04:31:26 AM

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 02, 2008, 11:14:04 PM
These primary properties are what we look at when deciding what gadgets to include, which is the stronger mine? Laser.

Then why is laser the least used mine in the game?

Maybe you didn't see the laser mines  ::) (joking)

Quote from: Rambo on April 03, 2008, 03:36:21 AM

frvge: i'm still not convinced that poison mines add to the gameplay. i have several reasons:

Quote-the trigger mechanism (and the range) works exactly like spy traps

A spy's trigger mechanism for a nade works the same.

Quote-if poison mines get more deadly we have no idea what it will do to the gameplay because they aren't exactly deadly in ct

Well, if your mate can't heal you because only heal boxes work then it will up the deadliness of the poison mine. If the times shortens to death and other affects occur while poisoned, it will balance itself out as being useful and not as much of a joke.

Quote-poison mines are only strong in places you can't jump over (they are really easy to see flipping on tv every once in a while); in that places, they are op because of the big range (same problem with traps)

Poison mines are strong in places you don't expect them to be, in places you can't jump over (as stated), and something far from a health box. Their trip laser's length makes the weakened poison different and more useful/different than that of a laser mine.

Quote-mines already belong to the strong gadget category because they kill, no need to give the merc 3 choices instead of 2 (just remember how well mines worked in pt (except no number limit))

I don't see how another mine that is actually useful in ruining MATCHES should be removed because they were fucked up in CT. The idea was just fine. Why not continue towards the DA route and nix them altogether....ah, no. Limit should remain and poison mines should stay. People use different things and plant better mines then others. Consider different players here as opposed to the fantastical myth world of "WHAT I WANT".

Quoteit would be nice if you could actually consider these points and not just state something naive like <it has it's uses and gives the player more choice so it's good for the gameplay>

Poison mines are more useful to different players. Even if they are a different  type of "PRON". I think you need to actually consider the other team taking poison mines and you diverting them. More choices can make opposition weak. Bad placement can make opposition weak. Then again, I could probably catch you with some poisons and really frustrate/manipulate your game play because it messes with your head.

Poison mines should stay because they are actually useful (if used appropriately), not just another option.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 03, 2008, 04:56:30 AM
I completely disagree with that point. Regardless, sum up those facts and the laser comes out on top, have a difference of opinion? Fine but at the present I see the advantages being with the laser mine, but PLEASE stop being pedantic (not just you, anyone who's replying to this thread in general) because if you read what I say, I eventually came to the conclusion the Poision Mine is a good addition, jesus christ :P.

You can't disagree with that.  It's a fact.  From my experience, I hardly ever see laser mines compared to proxies/poisons.  I'm sure most people here would say the same.  I'm sure most people who have played SvM for more than a few months would say the same. That means that most people use laser mines less frequently.  The only areas that laser mines will even work in is close quarter areas or at narrow chokepoints.  And even then, proxies will do that job just fine.  For any long range mine using the poison mine is the only option.  If anything, the laser mine is a worse addition than the poison, but not by a whole lot.  They all do their own job fine, even if a few of them overlap the other's uses.

"I eventually came to the conclusion the Poision Mine is a good addition."

Remember? I don't want to talk about the shortcomings of either mine. But I've probably played longer than you, very long breaks from CT or not I think I have. In my experience I've seen Laser Mines used many times and most times to more avail than a Poison Mine.

Edit - Just found this in another topic.

"I've only brought them every loadout since the dawning of PT."

Woops. If you've been playing non-stop since then, then maybe not :P. But in my experience I've seen many Laser Mines used and although I do play with good players at times, I barely see Poison Mines being as efffective, the only times I really do are over long distances but that's pretty irrelevant because this is going to be a new game and the distance it projects a laser to may be different. Not saying theres anything wrong with taking a Poison Mine but I personally find Laser Mines more useful and I haven't seen Poison Mines do as much damage.

omg stop the monster posts with almost no real substance. nothing but blablablabla that takes minutes to read  ::)
@papa: a presence detector close to an objective is bullshit. you should be able go figure out why on your own. you're right that laser mines are generally used rarely, but that is because of the delay.

westfall: i'm not against variety in gameplay styles, but i'm for variety in the right places: make laser mines viable by removing the delay, and you have your enhanced variety and choices. boost amount of spytraps and allow vertical placement, and you have more variety. replace flares with ph. nades, and you have your variety. those are all examples that i think would add to the gameplay because there is no gadget overlapping and no unneeded complexity. it's really ridiculous that you are worried about too few gameplay choices when there will be like 10 times more even with some minor fixes like removing the laser mine delay. besides, your post can be summed up by this naive statement: poison mines are useful. so what? i'm sure a rocket launcher or x-ray vision would be useful, too. you did in no way counter any of my points.

Actually he's very right indeed that presence detectors are a very useful device to deter spies from objectives and other key points in a map, and I'm not gonna stop those 'Monster Posts' because while it may take you a long time to read, it saves me time by saying what I want to say in one post rather than spreading it out over a series of posts/topics with needless arguments in between.

Complaining about my 'Monster Posts' says more about you than it does about me, even with your small font you manage to write a load of bullshit without even explaining your opinion.

By the way, "omg stop the monster posts with almost no real substance" ... Substance means "That which has mass and occupies space". My posts have alot less mass than your bullshit I can tell you that :P.

Side note: lasers mines are under used in CT because of chaff through walls.

i'm not writing bullshit, stop flaming me. you could have summarized and structured your thoughts way better instead of spamming bullshit about my english grammar / word choice / whatever.
i didn't think that you are that retarded, but obviously i really gotta explain why presence detectors suck placed next to objectives: they give you about 1s more reaction time before the spy gives away his position anyways by hacking the objective.

Quote from: Xris on April 03, 2008, 04:37:54 PM
Side note: lasers mines are under used in CT because of chaff through walls.

So true <<<

I already explained your last point about presence detectors anyway but in practice, until we get into the game and people build tactics around, it that is not going to be the case. Choice is very, very important, I'm not flaming you atall by saying your writing bullshit I'm just stating my frustration. Your the one complaining about my long posts, yet your asking me to summarize and structure what I've already said in earlier posts, creating something you hate over again. I hate contradiction.

I didn't spam, I didn't bullshit, and I didn't talk about your grammar nor your 'whatever' but when your talking about words I have used and them providing no substance, can't another guy talk about your word choice contradicting what you have said in the first place? What I said clearly did provide substance and if your 'ragging' on my word choice to come to your conclusion, I have the right to do exactly the same to come to mine. Or is it a privelage only you are allowed to take advantage of? Retardation doesn't have anything to do with opinion by the way. Implying I have a hint of retardation isn't going to bring you anywhere but down.

Xris is right I believe aswell about his point of chaffs through walls as a reason laser mines are under used but the same can apply to poison mines, or any mine really for the matter, so yeah :P.

chaff going through walls makes (non-overlapping) proxies behind corners and laser mines quite useless in a lot of places, but it's not the reason why people choose proxies over laser mines: you hardly get a kill with a laser mine (exception: placed behind doors and in combinations or 2 or 3 mines) because of the stupid delay.

PD's have their weaknesses, but they have their strong points. 

Strong points:
1) They are tiny.
2) Emit no visible laser.
3) Can be put on things that are already triggered by heat vision making them even less visible.
4) You don't have to set it up so that the laser is put into an effective place.
5) They detect things in an area rather than a tiny line.
6)  NEXT TO Impossible to remove without exposing your position or making noise. (one of the best things about this gadget.)

Weak Points:
1) Small range.
2) Don't permanently track the spy.
3) Are only useful in less visible areas and areas that are key choke points.
4) Usually things like this are expected to be around choke points, so get chaffed because of that.  Even if the spy doesn't know it's there.  BUT, if the spy checks the area w/ thermal, doesn't see it because of good placement, the spy could run right into it and blow his position instantly.

Those all depend on where they are used.  Placement is key to these gadgets, same with laser spy traps. 

it's quite possible to remove presence detectors stealthy, but most people simply don't expect them or know how they work (lack of tutorial again).

Quote from: Rambo on April 03, 2008, 02:53:45 PM

westfall: i'm not against variety in gameplay styles, but i'm for variety in the right places: make laser mines viable by removing the delay, and you have your enhanced variety and choices. boost amount of spytraps and allow vertical placement, and you have more variety. replace flares with ph. nades, and you have your variety. those are all examples that i think would add to the gameplay because there is no gadget overlapping and no unneeded complexity. it's really ridiculous that you are worried about too few gameplay choices when there will be like 10 times more even with some minor fixes like removing the laser mine delay. besides, your post can be summed up by this naive statement: poison mines are useful. so what? i'm sure a rocket launcher or x-ray vision would be useful, too. you did in no way counter any of my points.

So, from all that you've posted and what I posted (which was perfectly legit and definitely countered what you've posted), I can safely make the assumption that you are scared of poison mines. Your last statement was about "don't tell me its good for game play" and what not...yet thats all you have with your other statements. The variety is always a good point. Poison mines do just that, add more variety. Saying that poison mine being useful is a naive statement only shows your lack of "I wonder what other players would use." Again, the game can't appease the needs of everyone, but getting rid of poison mines without even having good points to counter really doesn't help the cause. Either get something convincing or quit trying to use the same not good points as to why the poison should be removed.

1)  Rambo, the only way I've successfully removed a PD without setting off my positon is removing them from behind when they are on a rail.  All other attempts for me prove unsuccessful no matter which way I go, how slow I go, or what I use.  On the other hand, it's quite easy to remove it and make a noise at the same time - If you find it before it finds you that is. 

I'm not saying this gadget is Godly, in fact, far from it.  But it makes it NEXT to impossible, as I said before, to remove them without giving away your position.  The reason more people choose to use the other form of the spy trap is because it's more attractive to get a blip that tracks the spy for a long period of time that you can easily track down (maybe not kill always but you get my point).   With a PD someone can easily escape after they are detected by it.  For me, I choose the the laser detector for the same reason in most cases.  On occasion I will use the PD, but that's pretty rare.

2) Rambo, you go from calling poison mines utterly useless to comparing them to rocket launchers.  I probably just took that out of context but I see that you must realize they have their uses.  Therefore I don't see why they should be removed as a useful gadget in the game.

3) I just thought I'd bring up the fact that they work like a laser spy trap again.  They can work like a spy trap but at times be a bit more potent and useful.  Just remember that you can have your mines, have something that works almost as well as a spy trap all at the same time, and only take up 1 slot.  Of course, this all depends on how/where it was placed.  That means that it's useless for you, but useful for others because they know where/how to place them.  I don't want to explain this all to you because it already has been.  Look back a few pages and maybe discover something you didn't before.

So far plenty people want the poison mine to stay in the game, look at westfall's poll.  I feel like it deserves a boost because some people like Rambo can't find a use for it.  But it will only make it more useful for the people who already like it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Quote from: Rambo on April 04, 2008, 12:37:44 AM
it's quite possible to remove presence detectors stealthy, but most people simply don't expect them or know how they work (lack of tutorial again).

Wait .. what? Mr. "I never get killed by poisons, lasers, nades, never get hit by bullets or oversee lasertraps, I also never get necked cammed or ambushed and win every game" wants to tell me he fears presence detectors?  ;D

Rambo on your earlier point, I've had more Proxy kills than Lasers.... but only because I use them more often, I have had a fair margin of my laser mines score a kill, or atleast almost kill a spy.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 04, 2008, 04:56:04 AM
1)  Rambo, the only way I've successfully removed a PD without setting off my positon is removing them from behind when they are on a rail.  All other attempts for me prove unsuccessful no matter which way I go, how slow I go, or what I use.  On the other hand, it's quite easy to remove it and make a noise at the same time - If you find it before it finds you that is. 

i guess you don't know how they work: you can move in every speed undetected in the break between the "beeps", but when it "beeps" it detects you also in slow-motion mode.

@westfall: i'm not scared from poison mines. i'm also 100% right that it's no sufficient reasoning for a gadget to get into the game just because it adds variety. my point is that poison mines are lame in some spots where spy traps are also lame (gadget overlapping: triggering works absolutely identically), but in most spots they suck because it's too easy to see the laser. all i'm asking are some good points from your side to either reason what poison mines add to the gameplay or to suggest some changes.

Hmmm, possibly my disc, but these things don't beep.  Could be my disc though, it is several years old and I haven't even used my backup disc yet.  I should try that.  It could also be a glitch due to the backwards compatibility of using the old xbox disc in my 360, plenty of those glitches.  Guess you're right, I had no idea.  I haven't even come across one on PC yet.

You've already have seen good points from us.

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 04, 2008, 05:10:40 PM
You've already have seen good points from us.

summarize them plz because i can't see any.

Quote from: Rambo on April 04, 2008, 06:13:21 PM

Quote from: Papa Skull on April 04, 2008, 05:10:40 PM
You've already have seen good points from us.

summarize them plz because i can't see any.

Poison mines are being talked about on poll thread. Yes, we have given perfectly fine points compared to what you've given us to counter. You should be able to see the laser in thermal....no matter how far it goes. Don't be inconsistent.