Well, it might seems a bit off-topic or off-PS, but I thought you could help me.
Nothing is actually started, but I want to know how it works for this kind of situation.
I was maybe planning to leave my Country (Canada) to work at a Game Dev Studio near Seattle. Do you have any idea about the procedures? Passport, and all that stuff? I do not even know how financial stuff works loll... It's probably not a big deal anyway lol.
I'll inform myself about this in during the week, but if you know anything about that I would be the happiest man ever.
Thx,
Hyrage
Employers will help you with this. Getting a work visa is complicated because you cannot get work without a visa, but you cannot get a visa without work.
Generally speaking, the american govt. are real pricks about the whole process -even before 9/11.
Quote from: HBW_Hyrage on April 10, 2008, 08:49:44 AM
Well, it might seems a bit off-topic or off-PS, but I thought you could help me.
Nothing is actually started, but I want to know how it works for this kind of situation.
I was maybe planning to leave my Country (Canada) to work at a Game Dev Studio near Seattle. Do you have any idea about the procedures? Passport, and all that stuff? I do not even know how financial stuff works loll... It's probably not a big deal anyway lol.
I'll inform myself about this in during the week, but if you know anything about that I would be the happiest man ever.
Thx,
Hyrage
meh its not that bad don't worry don't know about work visa though....
yes u have to get a work visa, and then if you live and work long enough in the US I believe you can apply for citizenship. OR you could always just find a girl once u move and marry her and then u are a US citizen lol.
To get a working visa, you need a sponsor / gurrantor first, in this case it would be your employer(s), and the paperworks have to be submitted to the relevant departments by both parties.
In addition to that you and your sponsor need to convince them that why they choose you over some locals with the same skills. The answer may be as simply as "you are the only 3 star french chef in town." or more complicated. At least thats how it works in Australia.
There is a skill shortage in the game industry here, perhaps you could give that a try.
Go with a tourist visa, and stay there for 6 months (which is the maximum you can, atleast for brazilians). When you get a job, go for the working visa.
We don't need a tourist visa when coming from canada, just a passport, and if driving only ID and a birth cirtificate. passports wont be needed til 2009 i believe when driving.
Quote from: Xris on April 10, 2008, 07:21:37 PM
We don't need a tourist visa when coming from canada, just a passport, and if driving only ID and a birth cirtificate. passports wont be needed til 2009 i believe when driving.
best bet tho is to google government of canada and see what the policies are from the site
Thx a lot guys, it sounds promising 8) .
I was born in Washington and lived there for years. One thing I can tell is that it will be raining. Almost 100% sure it will be this time of the year. Just giving you a heads up if you ever do go. I recommend bringing rain coats and extra pants. :D
Everything that most people here have said is true. Except for Kebab lol. They aren't being pricks. They are doing what they SHOULD be doing to prevent anything like 9/11 from happening again. Don't do anything suspicious and they won't be suspicious of you, that's how it works.
a foriegner crossing the border to the USA has entirely differant experience then an american crossing the USA border.
I have been to around 13 different countries, and the only one where the customs officers power trip is when entering the USA.
Not many other countries have had their planes hijacked recently killing thousands of innocent people and costing the country millions. People are still dying today because of the attacks 7 years ago. We also have very strict immigration policies as of now because we have hundreds of thousands of people illegally living here.
The only place where I was treated like a criminal was at the US border. I dont like my fingerprints being taken while I haven't done anything. Might as well put me into jail for something that can possibly come with chances of 0.000000000001%. I think it's laughable that they demand your creditcard data. How does that stop any 'big' criminal activity?
Terrorist: "Shit, they tracked my creditcard purchase of this WMD"
....
Anyway... meh.
Again, the regulations weren't so strict before 9/11. It's all precaution. Better safe than sorry. How else do you think it would work in a country that was just struck by a huge terrorist attack? They would like to know who is getting on the plane. No one really knows that you aren't a terrorist as they come in all shapes and sizes, although 90% are arabic/muslim.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 11, 2008, 02:06:22 AM
Again, the regulations weren't so strict before 9/11. It's all precaution. Better safe than sorry. How else do you think it would work in a country that was just struck by a huge terrorist attack? They would like to know who is getting on the plane. No one really knows that you aren't a terrorist as they come in all shapes and sizes, although 90% are arabic/muslim.
Just struck? Look at your time frame.
There are rules that are followed. Thats how it works. There are strict rules now because of what happened in 2001. Thats how it works. Its unfortunate some1 had to ruin it for everyone, but welcome to what human kind has created. Strict rules that are followed, yet still flawed.
It's pretty recent even though it was years ago.
I've been through this customs thing 5 times and yes the security has gotten way more strict after 9/11 (well, DUH!) but I don't find that to be a bad thing. I don't mind having to stick my finger on that little thing so they can take my fingerprints, being asked what I'm doing there and for how long I am staying or having to go by 3 x-rays so I can finally get on the plane. That actually makes it safer! The only thing that would piss me off is if they asked me to open my baggage for them and they end up making a huge goddamn mess out of it (which happens almost everytime they ask you to see what's inside..). If they want to inspect it, that's fine, but there's no need to start throwing people's stuff on the floor (seen that twice in Miami).
Thankfuly, that never happened to me and as long as you don't have restricted articles, I doubt you'll have any problems..
Inspecting bags makes it even more safe. I'd rather have someone's crap on the floor than someone's bomb on the plane. Even it does embarrass them or make a mess. Maybe the inspectors should be a little more respecting of the person's stuff though and not throw it on the ground etc... OR maybe the people should be a little better at packing their bags and not overstuff them :D
As I said, I don't care about inspecting them, hell..inspect my balls if they want to! But don't make a mess or a scandal out of it.
I'm not using any credit cards for the moment,
I'm a terrorist and I will blow up everything that I can... by making stuff for Master Chief sir ^^. May I pass please?
America didn't have such a problem with terrorism when they were funding the IRA...
Personally I find all protection mechanisms slightly foolish, they can't be strong enough to protect anything because that level of protection costs too much, both in enforcement and in lost revenue, so all you're left with is the annoying level of protection which only stops people who are carrying bombs for the crack and hoping they'll have a good chance to use it.... which has never worked.
you can't do anything against suicide bummers, but for all the other freaks out there there is a good insurence: the plane won't start unless every baggage's owner is on board. stronger doors to the cockpit are also a cheap and unannoying possibility.
So security asks me at Stansted Airport (UK) about fluids. 100ml allowed. My contact lenses fluids was 130ml but it's medicine I believe. Was in a transparent bag, but not the one from the airport, so it goes in, along with my lenses (note: that small container has probably 6 drops of the fluid!). Then she asks me if I have other liquids. Wanted to say something like: "Yeah like 40 liters! My fucking body you moron". I really hate annoying, non-working bullshit over-the-top security like that. Had the same at the US border, but didn't want to get in trouble there. Long live the world in which we fear for something that happened once and will surely, but unfortunately, happen again...
I await the first terrorist who implemented something in his body. Like his stomach. Then everybody will need a stomach-drain before entering the plane. Yay for stupid security. The only safe plane is a plane without people.
I was at an airport once and the guy working security looked like a terrorist ...
I still remember the news article where a man wasn't allowed into a plane because he had a "Muslim-like beard."
Paranoia is ruining everything; The terrorists have won.
Quote from: Cyntrox on April 11, 2008, 09:14:51 PM
Paranoia is ruining everything; The terrorists have won.
Terrorists didn't win shit.
last time I was in Seattle, the security was redundant....but superficial. I mean checking passports at the beginning and ending of an escalator, just after going through baggage check was entirely useless.
The amusing thing is a cousin of mine unintentionally smuggled a hunting knife passed security.
There's another reason why security should be amped up even more. Should we just let anyone waltz onto a mutimillion dollar jet that could be hijacked to take thousands upon thousands of lives? Hell no. I say quit bitching about the procedures, if you don't have anything to hide then dont' worry about it. You won't get arrested if you have nothing to hide. Bid deal, minor securities for greater assurance.
Sorry, that is a pretty pathetic way of reasoning. The "You've got nothing to hide" is a bad argument for various reasons. I've got nothing to hide, so why search me, screw up my human rights on body integrity (I know of someone whose young daughter had to be examined from down below... I mean wtf!), add to a lot of frustratation and generally take too much money for not enough effect. No thanks. It's unstoppable and more security is good, but only up to the point where it is ridiculous. I don't mind metal detectors. I do mind the new forms of x-ray scanning to humans and partly luggage. I think not being able to bring your own goddamn toothpaste or liquid medicine is pretty pathetic. You can turn everything into a bomb. Ever thought about bringing an empty bottle on the plane? Only it's filled with neurotoxin gas... Nothing picks that up, when properly sealed.
I think they would ask you to trash it...
It's not pathetic. 1 person's embarrassment is worth it to prevent the destruction of 1,000's of lives. It's not ridiculous. All bags and luggage should be thoroughly checked. You won't feel so annoyed when you realize that a terrorist behind you just had his bag checked and a bomb was found. Look at the bright side and stop cherry picking the small annoyances.
They would ask you why you are bringing an empty bottle anyways. They'll ask you to trash it, and if you say no, they are going to suspect something. Good luck getting that on board when they see it.
The question is... when does the annoying thing be annoying enough for you (its a personal factor) to not travel anymore? Would it be when you can't bring any stuff anymore? Or when you have to get naked? Or a full body check? Or a triple-A (or whatever) check on your criminal record (got a chore for handing around or w/e, something minor), financial information and a check on the lives of all your relatives? If you don't mind any of that, you can send me your naked pictures so I can post them here. After all, you've got totally nothing to hide then ;)
Quote from: Westfall-US on April 11, 2008, 09:36:38 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on April 11, 2008, 09:14:51 PM
Paranoia is ruining everything; The terrorists have won.
Terrorists didn't win shit.
Terror means fear, right? A terrorist attacks a country by making it fear him. Are you trying to say that whatever country you're living in is NOT afraid of terrorists?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 11, 2008, 11:33:39 PM
It's not pathetic. 1 person's embarrassment is worth it to prevent the destruction of 1,000's of lives.
Um, I think you got something wrong.
How many people are searched for each actual terrorist that is found?
Cyntrox is right IMO.
Counterstrike: Terrorists win. Unfortunately... If there wouldn't have been an overreacting on the airfields (2-3 weeks or even 2 months like that uber-tight security is enough) and the actual Muslim society would have been angry at the various attacks (NYC/London/Madrid), it would have been a different and better world. Aw well :(
Quote from: frvge on April 11, 2008, 07:24:29 PM
So security asks me at Stansted Airport (UK) about fluids. 100ml allowed. My contact lenses fluids was 130ml but it's medicine I believe.
The maximum allowed is 100ml, not 130ml, so yeah, you asked for it...
Quote from: United Airlines site...Items must fit in one clear, re-sealable quart or liter-sized plastic bag, in containers of 3 oz/100 ml or less. In the European Union, items must fit in one clear, re-sealable liter-sized plastic bag, in containers of 100 ml/3 oz or less. (Please note: The TSA's exact measurements are stated above.
Gui has a point.
Do people from US also have to go through such ridiculous control ?
---
One thing I know is that I'll never visit US. I will never agree on giving my fucking fingerprints to anyone, cause im not a criminal - for me thats enough to say stop. Besides, I see no reason why I should leave UE if everything I need can be found here without silly procedures, passports and border controls (except for Britain, yay...).
BTW, have any of you ever seen or heard how US visa application looks like ?
You have to answer question like - "Have you ever been in US illegally ?", "Are you applying for US visa to lead a subversive or terroristic activity ?" "Are you a member of terrorstic organisation?", "Have you ever been involved into genocide or the Nazi Germany persecution ?", "Have you ever sold drugs ?", "Have you ever prostituted or been involved into procuration?". Now frvge, THATS pathetic.
I know.
if someone reasonably competent really wants to blow up an airplane, all the current security checks won't stop him. how many bombs did they actually stop from entering the airplane? and why blow up an airplane when you can just blow up a bus, train, whatever?
Quote from: Cyntrox on April 11, 2008, 09:14:51 PM
Paranoia is ruining everything; The terrorists have won.
exactly. from what i can tell, the americans are the most paranoid people on the planet XD
Quote from: neth on April 12, 2008, 12:27:04 AM
BTW, have any of you ever seen or heard how US visa application looks like ?
You have to answer question like - "Have you ever been in US illegally ?", "Are you applying for US visa to lead a subversive or terroristic activity ?" "Are you a member of terrorstic organisation?", "Have you ever been involved into genocide or the Nazi Germany persecution ?", "Have you ever sold drugs ?", "Have you ever prostituted or been involved into procuration?". Now frvge, THATS pathetic.
I had to redo my Visa in January because it had expired. I went there, I gave them a list of various documents including, bills, things that proved that I had a home here, my birth document and also a form that asked different questions such as if I knew how to use guns, where did I study, what was my religion and other things that I can't really remember but I was never asked any of those ridiculous questions above...
On a not serious note...It's so easy to critisize other countries, isn't it? England sucks, they speak funny english! Portugal sucks, they speak funny portuguese...Spain sucks, they speak an even funnier portuguese. Italy owns and Germany...can you even understand what they say!?!, Poland...do I even need a reason?
Yes.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 11, 2008, 11:33:39 PM
It's not pathetic. 1 person's embarrassment is worth it to prevent the destruction of 1,000's of lives. It's not ridiculous. All bags and luggage should be thoroughly checked. You won't feel so annoyed when you realize that a terrorist behind you just had his bag checked and a bomb was found. Look at the bright side and stop cherry picking the small annoyances.
They would ask you why you are bringing an empty bottle anyways. They'll ask you to trash it, and if you say no, they are going to suspect something. Good luck getting that on board when they see it.
meh i prefer not be scared into the governments gay stuff, ie patriot act
You've gotta be fucking kidding. Paranoid? We just don't want it to happen again. Is that so wrong and so inconvenient for you guys? There's nothing wrong with taking a fingerprint. The plane leaves at the same time, you won't miss it. Don't know why you have to be annoyed by it. Just take the friggin fingerprint and say "Wow, big deal, all I had to do was put my thumb on a scanner for a few seconds". My advice? Don't bring anything embarrassing on a plane like a penis pump.
Apparently there's something wrong to you all about security. And that is ridiculous. You'd rather take the chance that people will die than you to be annoyed (minimally I might add). Pretty damn selfish in my opinion.
Btw, you guys are mistaking fear with preventive measures. We don't fear the terrorists. Obviously not, we are over there dealing with them first hand. I actually am glad to some extent that the terrorists showed how flawed our security system is. We can learn from the mistakes it had and prevent things like 9/11 from happening again. If we feared the terrorists we'd still all be over here letting them do what they please in the mid east - it's not the case.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on April 12, 2008, 01:20:22 AM
I had to redo my Visa in January because it had expired. I went there, I gave them a list of various documents including, bills, things that proved that I had a home here, my birth document and also a form that asked different questions such as if I knew how to use guns, where did I study, what was my religion and other things that I can't really remember but I was never asked any of those ridiculous questions above...
These qustions are taken straightly from visa application from us embassy site. There are different types of visa, I think I gave questions from long stay visa
Quote
Poland...do I even need a reason?
Sure, I wonder what do you, as a Brasilian, know about Poland. Besides, no one criticizes any countries here for things like language. Paranoia though, needs criticism.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on April 12, 2008, 01:20:22 AM
On a not serious note...It's so easy to critisize other countries, isn't it? England sucks, they speak funny english! Portugal sucks, they speak funny portuguese...Spain sucks, they speak an even funnier portuguese. Italy owns and Germany...can you even understand what they say!?!, Poland...do I even need a reason?
ah yes, now I see it ;)
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 12, 2008, 08:03:56 AM
You've gotta be fucking kidding. Paranoid? We just don't want it to happen again. Is that so wrong and so inconvenient for you guys?
Yes, it's very inconvenient.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 12, 2008, 08:03:56 AMDon't bring anything embarrassing on a plane like a penis pump.
So you can't bring your personal belongings on a plane? Why not remove a persons right to have personal belongings while you're at it? Everyone would have what they needed supplied by the state, and if anyone had an item they didn't get from the government, they get shot. Good idea?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 12, 2008, 08:03:56 AMApparently there's something wrong to you all about security. And that is ridiculous. You'd rather take the chance that people will die than you to be annoyed (minimally I might add). Pretty damn selfish in my opinion.
The world is overpopulated anyways.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 12, 2008, 08:03:56 AMBtw, you guys are mistaking fear with preventive measures. We don't fear the terrorists. Obviously not, we are over there dealing with them first hand. I actually am glad to some extent that the terrorists showed how flawed our security system is. We can learn from the mistakes it had and prevent things like 9/11 from happening again. If we feared the terrorists we'd still all be over here letting them do what they please in the mid east - it's not the case.
I am quite aware of the fact that you're not one bit better than any terrorist organization, as you just pointed out, but I don't believe you when you say that the majority of americans are not afraid of terrorism.
1) How incredibly selfish you are.
2) You can bring personal items on the plane. They should be checked. How is someone to know that your bag isn't full of bombs? They don't know. Therefore it MUST be checked, if you don't see that then your logic is amazingly flawed.
3) How you come to the conclusion that we aren't better than the terrorists I will never know. How is hunting them down to obliterate their entire evil organization not better than killing innocent civilians? It's not worse. It's about 1,000,000,000 times better.
4) I'll be waiting for the day America passes a bill to let every passenger on board without a baggage check and a terrorist flies a 747 into your house. Will you think that a little embarrassment was worth you dying, or anyone for that matter? And who says that every person is embarrassed by their luggage? 95% of people pack the regular anyways - clothes, toothbrush, soap, etc... As for making a mess? Just pack your bags a little looser, neater, and stfu if they get checked.
President's Informer: "Mr. President, I've got some good news and some bad news."
Bush: "What's the bad news?"
President's Informer: "A passenger jet was hijacked today and was crashed into a city building containing 17,000 people. They all died."
Bush: "Oh my God, that's terrible! What's the good news?"
President's Informer: "The good news is that no one on board was embarrassed of their luggage! What a victory for the American people, no one felt akward showing their luggage contents to people who don't even give a shit anyways! Forget that they died on board, just remember that they didn't have to get their fingerprint scanned or ANYTHING!!! Hooray!"
Use your fucking head and quit being so stuck up that you actually care that people get their bags checked. It'll be worth it one day when a C4 is found in a terrorists bag. But wait! Won't he be embarrassed he just tried to kill 5,000 civilians and got caught?! Well, in that case, we better not check his bag after all!!!
I really, really, really hope you are kidding.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 03:19:48 AM
1) How incredibly selfish you are.
Why, thank you. Coming from an american nationalist, that really means a lot.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 03:19:48 AM2) You can bring personal items on the plane. They should be checked. How is someone to know that your bag isn't full of bombs? They don't know. Therefore it MUST be checked, if you don't see that then your logic is amazingly flawed.
So anything that the government doesn't know of must be checked? Wow, I guess you don't know what privacy is.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 03:19:48 AM3) How you come to the conclusion that we aren't better than the terrorists I will never know. How is hunting them down to obliterate their entire evil organization not better than killing innocent civilians? It's not worse. It's about 1,000,000,000 times better.
Have you seen the death rates of innocent americans compared to all the people you kill while bombing entire cities in the middle east? What gives americans any more right to live than middle-eastians?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 03:19:48 AM4) I'll be waiting for the day America passes a bill to let every passenger on board without a baggage check and a terrorist flies a 747 into your house.
I'll tell you when it happens.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 03:19:48 AMAnd who says that every person is embarrassed by their luggage? 95% of people pack the regular anyways - clothes, toothbrush, soap, etc... As for making a mess? Just pack your bags a little looser, neater, and stfu if they get checked.
Yes, step in line, play nice, and don't ever question anything the government does. Way to go.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 03:19:48 AMUse your fucking head and quit being so stuck up that you actually care that people get their bags checked.
Baah. Baah!
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 03:19:48 AM
I really, really, really hope you are kidding.
I could say the same about you.
More people die in slum wars in Rio de Janeiro than in Iraq per year.
You are a selfish piece of shit. Can't even believe it. It's amazing that you try to say that Americans are selfish, when we are the MOST GIVING COUNTRY in the world. We give the most to charity/needy countries, yeah, I guess we really are selfish. ::) You have a point there, guess my opinion is void. Jackass.
Privacy rules are unimportant when the lives of innocent people are at stake. If we have to ravage through the dresser of a woman's panties to find a nuke we'll do it. Nothing wrong with that. Absolutely nothing. And listen, bags must be checked if it's possible that a giant flying bomb could be hijacked by a terrorist.
Minor deaths to prevent major deaths is worth it. As bad as it sounds, it's unavoidable. Innocents are ALWAYS killed in the process of eliminating big threats. Don't make it sound like it's only America that kills civilians. In fact, we are trying to prevent it. Accidental deaths are, well, accidental. Wasn't on purpose like that rat we took out of power. (Hussein) Think of it this way: 1 innocent civilian's live is lost to kill 1 guilty evil terrorist that is capable of killing much more. It's worth it. If at all possible, hopefully we can avoid getting that 1 innocent killed. We aren't the bad guys, fuck off.
The government isn't out to get you, there out there to protect you. I know I sound like the people who just believe in everything the government does. I'm not. But after years and years of studying them and their history/current actions, I can safely assure you that they aren't out to embarrass people by making a mess out of their luggage.
I'd expect more from a human being, and that's saying a lot. Don't you care about other people? Or are you just a sociopathic kind of guy? Tell you what. Why don't you go tell all of your friends, family, neighbors, fellow residents, etc that you'd rather have their lives at stake then you to have your fingerprint scanned or your bags checked because it's kind of annoying. That's all you are bitching about, annoyance. Get your tolerance level raised, get some patience, and while your at it why don't you grow up.
Spain and England have been victims to anual terrorist attacks for centuries and are dealing with it quite maturely. You do not get the impression that you are under a constant threat despite knowing England has incredibly sophisticated tech to fight terrorism.
Amerca govt. and media is being criticzed for the collective hysteria effect it has used over the people. Preventing terrorism is necessary, but my impression is that a lot of what we see as security is merely superficial. It is intended as a display to the public, when in fact it only a display. This display does not prevent anything, and is only a hindrance. It is a political statement by the govt. but I find it ineffective.
Think about, if you are a terrorist, would you fill out a questionaire saying you are muslim and can use a gun? If you were able to get past 1 strict security check(pat down + check passport with UV light), are the 6 other relaxed security checks going to even matter? The RFD chips in new passports can already be hacked by a portable wifi system.....within a range of 3 meters. And finally...from a strategy point...if you wish to attack someone, do you attack them where they anticipate it(like an airport) or do you attack them where they are vulnerable?
cyntrox&goodkebap>papaskull :o
The basic thing is: the US security system is 100% flawed. And I don't want to be treated like a criminal for a system that does not work. If it actually worked, I still wouldn't want to be treated like a criminal. I indeed do not care for the future victims. Why? There will always be more victims. I choose the bad (victims) over the worse (stupid lines, annoyances of millions of people, infringment on my body and possessions, a lot of money wasted on a system that does not work AND victims). I don't mind a basic check of possessions, but not in the way that's currently done. My perfectly normal luggage was searched, nothing stolen, when I returned from the USA to Holland by the TSA or something. The terms in the paper they added to it were ridiculous: "We have the right to search through your possessions. We are not responsible if we break anything." Like wtf... especially the 2nd part.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 08:40:17 AM
You are a selfish piece of shit. Can't even believe it. It's amazing that you try to say that Americans are selfish, when we are the MOST GIVING COUNTRY in the world. We give the most to charity/needy countries, yeah, I guess we really are selfish. ::) You have a point there, guess my opinion is void. Jackass.
Give me a source that compares the economy of different countries with the money they give to charity, and I'll believe you. And even if you do give the most to charity, charity doesn't work.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 08:40:17 AMPrivacy rules are unimportant when the lives of innocent people are at stake. If we have to ravage through the dresser of a woman's panties to find a nuke we'll do it. Nothing wrong with that. Absolutely nothing. And listen, bags must be checked if it's possible that a giant flying bomb could be hijacked by a terrorist.
You're just restating things. And yeah, I'm quite aware that you're willing to fuck up an entire country and kill tens of thousands of innocents in order to take out one man who's military power is NOTHING compared to yours.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 08:40:17 AMMinor deaths to prevent major deaths is worth it. As bad as it sounds, it's unavoidable. Innocents are ALWAYS killed in the process of eliminating big threats. Don't make it sound like it's only America that kills civilians. In fact, we are trying to prevent it. Accidental deaths are, well, accidental. Wasn't on purpose like that rat we took out of power. (Hussein) Think of it this way: 1 innocent civilian's live is lost to kill 1 guilty evil terrorist that is capable of killing much more. It's worth it. If at all possible, hopefully we can avoid getting that 1 innocent killed. We aren't the bad guys, fuck off.
The fact that you even use the word "bad guys" are making me doubt you're worth my time, but I'll bite:
Number of civilians killed in the Iraqi war: 90 000
Number of civilians killed in 9/11: 2819
Source: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/, http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/1year/numbers.htm
1 civilians life is lost to kill 1 guilty evil terrorist that is capable of killing much more... I'll correct that statement: 90000 civilians are killed to kill one innocent person whom your president blamed for having WMDs, but it turns out he didn't have them anyways. Oh, and the country happens to have a lot of oil! How convenient...
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 08:40:17 AMThe government isn't out to get you, there out there to protect you. I know I sound like the people who just believe in everything the government does. I'm not. But after years and years of studying them and their history/current actions, I can safely assure you that they aren't out to embarrass people by making a mess out of their luggage.
You, studying? What degree do you have? Or do you just read the newspapers?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 08:40:17 AMI'd expect more from a human being, and that's saying a lot. Don't you care about other people? Or are you just a sociopathic kind of guy? Tell you what. Why don't you go tell all of your friends, family, neighbors, fellow residents, etc that you'd rather have their lives at stake then you to have your fingerprint scanned or your bags checked because it's kind of annoying. That's all you are bitching about, annoyance. Get your tolerance level raised, get some patience, and while your at it why don't you grow up.
Tolerance? Says the guy who supports killing 90000 civilians, throwing a country into chaos and social disorder because of false accusations and because you don't like his way of ruling.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080316/wl_mcclatchy/2878538;_ylt=AmYBXKJ8Fg5FRstsy4Wx9sKs0NUE
Read that, then tell me I'm intolerant. And give me one single reason why the Iraqi war was necessary.
Cyntrox is right, the terrorists have won in many ways. They have the entire country paranoid and always looking over their shoulder for terrorists. Just walk through an airport and listen to the Threat advisory level (which is laughable anyways). Airport security is a joke as well, kinda like closing the barn door after the horse has got out. If some of these measure were in place before, 9/11 wouldn't have happened.
I travel alot in the US and I watch these guys at the screening look at the x-ray with a glazed look on their face. The TSA people are just looking for an excuse to harras someone to make their job more exciting. How exciting is a job where you look at an x-ray machine and shuffle rubbermaid containers around. They are as bad as the customs people. They are on a power trip and look for any way to assert that power. I see these people and all I can think is they are little people who want to act big.
Many here say they don't want customs to take their fingerprints. I for one don't really care as I have nothing to hide from the Us government. I am Canadian and work in the US alot. I travel through the border no problem because I have gone through all the bullshit to make it easier for me. Every so often I get the customs asshole who got into a fight with his wife the night before so he takes it out on everyone but for the most part it's ok. I do have a year long Visa to work there so it helps.
Papa you come across as a very patriotic US citizen and there is nothing wrong with that. But you should also look at it from the other side of the fence. The US foreign policies are seriously flawed and as such they make your country look bad. Bin Laden admitted to the attack on New York and he had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq. Why is Bin Laden still running free? Seems to me the war is in the wrong place. There was no justifiable reason for the US to be in Iraq other than to finish up Daddy Bush's origional war.
Cyntrox, you are misinformed. Bush did not lie about Saddam having WMD's, Saddam did. He threatened America. Therefore, he is a threat. Yeah, he's got a shitty military. But we didn't know he didn't have WMD's or biological weapons. We took him out and we left the country in shambles. We are rebuilding it and taking out terrorists in the area. All that conspiracy garbage about Bush lying so he could attack Iraq for oil is some of the most idiotic gibberish I've ever heard.
The 90k killed are MOSTLY KILLED BY THE TERRORISTS ffs. "killed by truck bomb", "killed by road side car bomb", only a few say by US strikes. And even then, it doesn't mean that they were killed by U.S. soldiers. They were just killed in battle by either side when the US/allies were fighting the terrorists. The killing would still happen if we weren't there, and they were happening before we got there.
I study myself. I read history books, look at the facts, I DO NOT watch the news (all the liberal biased opinions only feed bullshit into the country). I may even get a degree on it in the future. Do I have to go to college to know that our government isn't out there to embarrass anyone? Don't think so.
How convenient that the oil prices are going up after the Iraq war! Wow! We must really be there for oil because we are getting less of it by the day! Wow! stfu... We're there to rebuild the country (could take awhile), introduce democracy (also could take years), build up Iraq's military so they can take control themselves (making great progress), take Saddam out of power (check), liberate the country (just about there), and gain an ally. None of that "WE'RE ONLY THERE FOR OIL" shit please. If we wanted oil we could take it just as easily. Why go through all that trouble just to get some oil?
If we supported killing innocent civvies then we wouldn't be there right now, dur dur dur. That's one reason we are there, to stop sectarian killing and take out terrorists who are killing innocents. The country was already ruled by a dictator. It must go down then go up, and up, and up.
Thanks for the article Captain Obvious, war sucks, no shit. Once war is over, victory is achieved, and we gain an ally, all is well. But we won't forget all the bad times that happened.
Actually, we did find chemical WMDs in Iraq. It's just that most of the news media ignored it.
That is true actually. The media probably ignored because they wanted to make Bush look bad, they are 90% all liberals. But then, the weapons found weren't as bad as Saddam made them out to be. He exaggerated their potential to scare off Iran.
I like when someone who doesn't live here says "Americans are paranoid" (Rambo...speak for someone else, but definitely not for all of us) and then some other really really intelligent person tells me that terrorists have won. Cyntrox, you are right that the definition of terrorisim involves fear. UNFORTUNATELY you have to realize that these super cool terrorists are trying to take away our freedom. This is the point of the whole problem. Some ignorant fuck out in a desert wants to kill Americans because he doesn't understand how to live in a free society. SO my boy, until these mother fuckers take away any of my freedom, they haven't won shit. KThxBye "But America has so many laws". Well, I can bet you we are still freer than....you, lets just say.
Cyntrox, you are in some sense, an asshole. I can understand how you would defend whatever country your from, which makes you just as much a nationalist as Papa, but don't try and tell me shit when I'm not the fuck rooting for "which side has more power." Funny how they say that shit is preschool, yet look at you girls go. Always have to be the better. Can't just live with each other.
@ Papa: The government hasn't protected us in a while. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but from simple observations, our country is heading in the wrong direction because a majority of the population is being manipulated.
@AJ: The chemical weapons that were found were really old, supplied by us, and inactive.
Forgot how much on topic this was to PS. Also forgot how flaming is getting away with. If you're going to make something a rule, stick to your guns.
I'm not saying America is better than any other country (wherever the hell Cyntrox is from), I'm just sticking up for my country. Something wrong with that? Don't throw me in the mix of not wanting to get along with eachother, Westfall. I do, only to do that you need people like Cyntrox to stop being so god damned ignorant.
By upping security measures, the government is doing lots to protect us. By sending a military force to root out the terrorists, they are doing EVEN MORE to protect us - and the world for that matter.
Our country is heading in bad direction right now because we're pretty divided belief-wise. We're in debt and all that. A lot of people are misinformed and listen to the news, that's a problem to me. But, imo, it's nothing we can't recover from. I'm sure that the Iraq War will be at least somewhat of a success, if not, a total one. At the rate we are going in Iraq, I predict it to be violence free/strong/independent within the next 8-10 years, if we are still there. Hopefully not that long.
We had no idea that they were inactive, or even the ones supplied by us decades ago. Would anyone really want to take a gamble that big? Let's just sit back here and hope they don't have nuclear devices. Let's just cross our fingers because we all doubt them. If we did that there's a possibility that we would have gotten hit hard. Better safe than sorry, or dead.
We're doing the world a favor by eliminating terrorists threats. You can't argue with that. Look at the facts, look at the big names we've took out, look at the camps we've eliminated, terrorists are decreasing in number. That in and of itself should be a key reason to support the war. ON TOP OF THAT, Iraq is becoming a free and independent country.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PM
Cyntrox, you are misinformed.
- edited: goes too far -
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMBush did not lie about Saddam having WMD's
True. You know where Saddam got his WMDs? From America. To take out Iran.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMHe threatened America.
Sources please.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMTherefore, he is a threat. Yeah, he's got a shitty military.
So someone with a shitty military is a threat to the mighty America? That's ridiculous.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMBut we didn't know he didn't have WMD's or biological weapons.
And you didn't wait for the UN inspectors to finish checking for them either. And besides, you hypocrite, what gives America any more right to have WMD's than any other country?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMWe took him out and we left the country in shambles.
That's the only true sentence you've said thus far.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMWe are rebuilding it All that conspiracy garbage about Bush lying so he could attack Iraq for oil is some of the most idiotic gibberish I've ever heard.
Rebuilding it? How about not raping it in the first place?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMand taking out terrorists in the area.
You're the terrorists. You're the one invading their country, raping their children, spreading fear and killing innocents.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMThe 90k killed are MOSTLY KILLED BY THE TERRORISTS ffs. "killed by truck bomb", "killed by road side car bomb", only a few say by US strikes. And even then, it doesn't mean that they were killed by U.S. soldiers. They were just killed in battle by either side when the US/allies were fighting the terrorists. The killing would still happen if we weren't there, and they were happening before we got there.
How strange then, that the iraqis say they were living better before the US invasion.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMI study myself. I read history books, look at the facts, I DO NOT watch the news (all the liberal biased opinions only feed bullshit into the country). I may even get a degree on it in the future. Do I have to go to college to know that our government isn't out there to embarrass anyone? Don't think so.
Yes, the free information is ruining your country, I'm sure.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMHow convenient that the oil prices are going up after the Iraq war! Wow! We must really be there for oil because we are getting less of it by the day!
1) Oil is running out globally
2) You waste so fucking much money on the war that there's no wonder your economy is going to hell.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMWe're there to rebuild the country (could take awhile),
Like you did with Korea?
It takes a while because you ruined it, and you're still ruining it more and more.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMintroduce democracy (also could take years),
Democracy? The kind muslims only want to introduce islam to America! You're a blind fool.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMbuild up Iraq's military so they can take control themselves (making great progress),
I guess your mummy never told you that problems can be solved WITHOUT one party dying.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMtake Saddam out of power (check),
Yes, I'm sure you're proud of killing the only person that held the country together.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMliberate the country (just about there),
If you by "liberate" mean "kill", then yes. Explain to me how you are making Iraq better.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMand gain an ally.
Okay, I'll chop off your legs and arms and you become my best friend?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMNone of that "WE'RE ONLY THERE FOR OIL" shit please. If we wanted oil we could take it just as easily. Why go through all that trouble just to get some oil?
...Um, that's what you're doing, [edit]
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMIf we supported killing innocent civvies then we wouldn't be there right now, dur dur dur.
You wouldn't be there killing innocent civilians?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMThat's one reason we are there, to stop sectarian killing and take out terrorists who are killing innocents.
Go commit suicide then.
Oh, and aren't cluster bombs fun? =D
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMThe country was already ruled by a dictator. It must go down then go up, and up, and up.
Why?
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 07:57:54 PMThanks for the article Captain Obvious, war sucks, no shit. Once war is over, victory is achieved, and we gain an ally, all is well. But we won't forget all the bad times that happened.
Oh, like the gulf war? Or the Vietnam war? If you haven't forgot, then you're obviously too retarded to learn from it. And I have yet to see you give me any sort of articles or sources.
Quote from: Westfall-US on April 13, 2008, 08:43:53 PM
Cyntrox, you are in some sense, an asshole. I can understand how you would defend whatever country your from, which makes you just as much a nationalist as Papa, but don't try and tell me shit when I'm not the fuck rooting for "which side has more power." Funny how they say that shit is preschool, yet look at you girls go. Always have to be the better. Can't just live with each other.
I haven't defended any country. I have merely attacked. And by the way, this is entertaining.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 09:02:39 PM
I'm not saying America is better than any other country (wherever the hell Cyntrox is from)
Well, you obviously think it's better than all the countries you're invading.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 09:02:39 PMI'm just sticking up for my country. Something wrong with that?
Yes. There's something wrong in you sticking up for your country because it is you country. It's bias.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 13, 2008, 09:02:39 PMIraq is becoming a free and independent country.
How does "attack, take away their government and all they ever had of independence" equal freedom?
Okay :D You just aren't fucking getting it dude. (I'm responding to each quote section, but I don't feel like quoting all that/deleting my quotes)
1) In all those insults I can conclude that you are just 1: immature (maybe more, but that sums it up nicely)
2) True? You just said that Bush did lie. Contradicted yourself. Do you think he did, or do you not? Make up your mind.
3) I don't need a source. Anyone who hasn't been hiding under a rock in the last decade knows that.
4) Someone with possibly active WMD's who threatens to use them against our country IS a threat. Our military could beat the shit out of his military - no duh. But we didn't completely know if he had WMD's or not. Why take the chance exactly? You must suck at poker, you don't know when to fold ( by fold I mean to not take a chance obviously ).
5) We have more of a right to do so because we don't hate any country. We don't want to obliterate countries and hold the world for ransom like so many other countries do - North Korea, Iran, Iraq (when Saddam was in power) etc... We keep the peace, liberate, create freedom. The only reason we have used WMD's was in attempt to end a war - it worked.
6) It's true, we have left it in shambles. At least we are helping to make the country stronger. Helping them grow with a better leader that doesn't want to kill us or that is bent on world domination. When it's all said and done, Iraq will be better than it was before we invaded.
7) Yeah, let's not rape it. Let's just let it rape itself until it fades into nothing. Tbh, we are only raping the parts that need to be raped - the dictators and terrorists. Then rebuilding the parts that accidentally get raped in the process of raping the terrorists.
8) Simply wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. We aren't the ones. Have you read my posts? THE MAJORITY OF INNOCENTS KILLED ARE KILLED BY TERRORISTS!! Dumbass, you provide me with correct information and continue to use it falsely. All the while it proves my point. Go click on that link and look. More people are killed by car bombs than crossfire. It's not America's fault that 1 guy gets horny and commits a terrible crime. It's just one guy. Maybe if we had a little more security and background checks we could decrease the amount of criminals that get into our military force. But wait, that's just annoying to have background check or a fingerprint scan isn't it?
9) Source please. The country doesn't all have one opinion. There are always different opinions in the Iraqi people. Have you not seen videos of people cheering when taking down the Saddam statue? Or how about the Iraqi people welcoming U.S. Troops into their country with cheer. There will always be people who aren't welcome to change, and that's fine. I'm sure they'll appreciate what we are doing in the future when they realized we did them a gigantic favor, a lot of them already do. Quit stating these bullshit assumptions please. The opinion of one man does not represent the opinion of an entire country.
10) Quit being stupid.
11) We aren't there for oil because we aren't taking it, end of story.
12) Ruining it more and more eh? That makes sense. Sure I can see it now. Violence is decreasing, terrorists in the country are being eliminated, dictators are gone, it's going to such hell isn't it? Yeah, living conditions have been degraded, but that's a biproduct of war. What ever will Iraq do with a violence free, terrorist free, dictator free living environment? I feel so bad for them. Living conditions will get better, don't worry about that.
13) The kind muslim only wants to destroy America from its roots and murder all the people living there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw2EisVqKZ4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw2EisVqKZ4) How wonderful their religion is to teach about killing an entire group of people to their kids. Everyone can benefit from democracy, not everyone can benefit from Islam.
14) Sad that you go by what your mummy tells you and not by what your friggin brain tells you. You think everything can be solved by talking it out? Sadly, you are wrong as you have ever been. Terrorists don't bargain, they don't talk things out, none of that. They are ruthless evil people that do the world no good and must be stopped.
15) I'd be proud of killing the one person that made the country a living hell for the people. Here are a few videos that I hope you look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQK5thIYJCI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQK5thIYJCI&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0CpA-K4Gqs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0CpA-K4Gqs) (see how they celebrate with U.S. Troops?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW4NbhdUPfM&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW4NbhdUPfM&NR=1)
16) Already explained. Killing the 1 or 2 people that kept the country from being free, made it free.
17) I don't have time to respond to the rest. That should be enough to hold you over anyways.
While this whole debate is interesting, I unfortunately had to edit some over-the-top name calling. Doesn't matter which side. Too bad this personal experiment failed.
So on-topic on the visa stuff for working in the USA. Any further message about Iraq will get deleted.
Don't worry about the name calling. I'm sure he just copied-pasted out of a dictionary, he didn't really mean it. ;)
I recommend closing the thread, Knuckles, Frvge, whoever...
Things took an interesting path lol...