Project Stealth

No nothing leathal. What I was thinking was how a lot of people blamed Aggro tactics as the problem for CT rather than the steep learning curve, bugs, and choked maps that made it part of the game.

I got to thinking, that aggro behavior would be greatly reduced if the shots by the spies were actually limited. So essentially giving spies shocker ammo. Meaning they would have to limit their aggressive behavior to when it was actually needed. A lot like cams and flashbangs.

It might be a good idea to test. Atleast then spies won't be running around tazing all the time, and creates a new gameplay element that CT doesn't have for spies.

Never really thought of that.....It would be really interesting to test this out.  I feel this may be a little imbalanced but it's definitely a nice alternative to think about when trying to counter aggro tactics.

So if you got no chaff and ammo left, you cant hack a laserd computer  ???

Which is solved by no lasered PCs  :D

maybe there can be a way of "hacking" the lasers where u wouldnt need chaff or ammo but it could take a few seconds longer than it would to taze the lasers so people dont do it all the time

Keep the ideas coming

You know what would make aggro spies really hard. A key that alerts your partner that you need help and where you are.

No need for that, we have voice chat. 

Limited shocker doesn't sound right. Especially after one usually shoots 5-6 times, just to be sure that they hit(No matter the targeting system that PS is gonna have, I think that would still be the case... well, unless you implement autoaim  :-X ). How about doing something to triple nading? Limit spies to 2 nades per 1 only(now, now, that's just brainstorming). It would be better to force the spies into attacking together if they want to smoke, chaff and flash at the same time, instead of having each of them do it on their own.

to stop aggro....you just need to eliminate the 3x nadding.


just add the same delay from dropping nads and shooting 2 of the same nads to the shooting of different nads.

This still allows for aggro which is necessary....nothing wrong with double teaming a merc.  To know when merc is untazable...just keep the taze effect visible until he is tazeable again.  30 seconds can apply to cammed merc....but i think we need to keep it the way it already is.


Also, maps like factory and orphanage leave room for stealth players...so the level design is important regarding avoiding aggro.

Exactly. Try to get through Warehouse neutralization, sector 1 without assaulting the mercs and you'll see what I mean. Level design is everything.

Aggro needs to be in this game, but it should be harder to do. With equally skilled teams, aggro should only work when spies outnumber the mercs. That's all. I couldn't care less about merc teams that manage to get theirselves killed when fighting aggro spy. We all know that CT got some adjustments that allow you to deal with an aggro team that's as equally skilled as yourself.

I think that the entire Project Stealth team will agree that there are much better ways to make the game more accessible and enjoyable for new players than to nerf stuff like aggro or the gadgets. I mean... that's the sole reason why most of us turned our backs from Double Agent versus.

Quote from: Overstatement on November 20, 2006, 11:40:35 PM
You know what would make aggro spies really hard. A key that alerts your partner that you need help and where you are.

thats workable....DA has something like this....where you see where your partner is killed on the hud map.  This can work with being shot at or tazed as well.

Ah yes. An excellent suggestion from Overstatement and well spotted, Kebab. That's a low-level decision that we could implement in the clone.

That's something I wouldn't have thought of since I communicate very well with my teammate. New players don't know their teammates and such an addition would be gold for lone wolf players.

The beauty of it is that this wouldn't bother a very skilled aggro team that much. It adds to the game instead of taking away from it.

I agree with you, Mac, on what we should do about aggro.  I don't want to limit the game and how it already is by making aggro harder to do.  I don't think aggro is that bad and in order to limit it I feel that it is not about limiting the spies gadgets but to increase the abilities of the merc.  For instance, changing the tazer around would surely scare off aggro spies by making it more effective (not PT style however, I heard that tazer was too good from all of you guys).  I like tripple nading and don't want to limit it.  Remember....without the aggro abilities, on some maps spies can be really screwed.  Think about aquarius, that map isn't that easy to stealth if you have two good mercs.

I'd like the button for people who don't have voice, so if we're playing with a guy without voice, we don't have to type to tell him.

oO, people w/o voices  :o

actually, if any of you played nwn1 perhaps quick voice commands wouldnt be so bad.  A bindable key to flash messages.

enemy spotted *flashes your location on minimap*
need help * flashes your location*
cover object blah *flashes blah*

Quote from: MacBryce on November 21, 2006, 12:36:02 PM
The beauty of it is that this wouldn't bother a very skilled aggro team that much. It adds to the game instead of taking away from it.

When you put it that way, it does seem like a very elegant solution.

Quote from: Vega on November 21, 2006, 04:16:16 PM
I agree with you, Mac, on what we should do about aggro.  I don't want to limit the game and how it already is by making aggro harder to do.  I don't think aggro is that bad and in order to limit it I feel that it is not about limiting the spies gadgets but to increase the abilities of the merc.  For instance, changing the tazer around would surely scare off aggro spies by making it more effective (not PT style however, I heard that tazer was too good from all of you guys).  I like tripple nading and don't want to limit it.  Remember....without the aggro abilities, on some maps spies can be really screwed.  Think about aquarius, that map isn't that easy to stealth if you have two good mercs.

Lol it's funny when you talk about beefing up the tazer, it makes me shudder with fear as I think about the SCPT tazer... It shot out like a good 8-10 feet and autolocked, so any spy caught facing a merc within that range was as good as dead, you just couldnt get away even if you turned corners... no skill was required whatsoever. On the other hand the spies could aggro like pure bitches.. The tactic was basically just shock a merc and jump him from the nearest piece of knee height furniture. So the balance of that game was pretty fucked IMO as you had to aggro to win, and that was against the whole principle of stealthy spies vs armored mercs.

SCCT was a much better game balance wise definately. Nerfing the tazer was the best thing they ever did, The SCCT bullcharge was much better, and much more balanced. It was avoidable and the tradeoff was if the merc was careless, his neck could be the price. I dont think there should EVER be a ranged weapon no matter how short that incapacitates a spy in one shot (apart from a well placed headshot).

What you could do is borrow something similar to that from a stealth mod from HL2 called Hidden: Source (http://www.hidden-source.com), which has something called an Fn303 which is a less than lethal projectile launcher (think of a paint ball gun on steroids), which fires balls filled with a toxic chemical called serun-oxide to disorientate with a nice blurry effect, slow down, and evetually incapacitate a subject if enough shots hit.

Im not suggesting putting this weapon into the game, but borrow the principle and perhaps change the role of the tazer from an instant-incapicitating stun, to a weapon which slows down a spy slightly and disorientates him so the merc can close him down easier.

It may be totally Imba in this setting, and as stated before we are all just brainstorming ideas here.. direct port of the game mechanics first, then mess about with it ;)

I don't know how it would turn out, Scope, but that idea sounds awesome.

I would suggest on doing that with the regular gun instead of a new weapon. If you get hit as a spy, you get a little bit blurred. If you get hit a lot, you get blurred a lot. Even if they manage to aggro you, I'd love to see those spies scrambling towards each others like drunken sailors, constantly missing their partner, in an attempt to heal him/her.

shotty stops aggro


uzi does a pretty good job as well...and makes up for high ping servers

That's right, Kebab, I remember you let me experience that for myself.

If the mercs were able to pick up a different gun at spawn, aggro would probably be limited. Get aggro'd? Pick up a shotty and get even. That would be fun too for the mercs. I can already imagine the conversation between them, but it would be hell for spies. Playing against a shotgun player is annoying. Every encounter you're bound to leave almost, if not entirely, dead.

actually....i like the idea of merc being able to change weapon at the ammo crates because you dont always know what kind of people you are playing against.

yeah ur right... and maybe we can take also some other weapens. But i hate the Shotgun... i agree u need some skilz to be good whit it but when u are, the spies don't have a chance... and if ur good whit rifle u sure do have a chance

thing is, spies get used to rifle and exploit the weaknesses of rifle...and then whine when mercs change tactics.  Shotty is not cheap...it just forces players to adjust....and that makes the differance between good players and bad ones.

ok im asking this for Nitro, he realy wants the Uzi in this game. Because he sucks with the sniper rifle. Can you pls put it in, or else he is gonna whine all the time, and when he starts whining...sigh...

lol...we know how much Nitro uses uzi

yeah, he truly is a "uzi noob". But i put up with him because of his trully beautifull voice. Great ass also.

I think that all the guns should remain but the shotty should just be nerfed a little because in the hands of a host it is deadly from very long range.

p.s.

Quote from: a3c0i3d on November 22, 2006, 02:11:14 PM
yeah, he truly is a "uzi noob". But i put up with him because of his trully beautifull voice. Great ass also.

lolerskates u sound like my buddy when he talks about me :-*

Well, we're cloning the game so the three weapons will be in it. Then again, we're making them from scratch so it's the purpose of the gun that will outweig the actual SCCT materialization of it.

And Kebab is absolutely right. The only reason people complain about shotty and uzi is because they aren't willing to adjust to them. Of course, it's a little hard to adjust when you can't change gadgets in-game but it's likely that that would get changed in our clone.

Quote from: a3c0i3d on November 22, 2006, 01:54:58 PM
ok im asking this for Nitro, he realy wants the Uzi in this game. Because he sucks with the sniper rifle. Can you pls put it in, or else he is gonna whine all the time, and when he starts whining...sigh...

PT didn't need uzi because the rifle was fking insane.

You know, we could use limited ammo for spies but allow spies to "recharge" their energy/battery supply in-game an unlimited number of times.  When the spy recharges his battery, he would be slow and very obvious (bright light or loud sound).  This is just like the Predator's energy sift in Aliens vs. Predator 2. 

???

so like just how it is now....but whenever spy uses his tazer  he cant run/hide....sorry dont like that thought.

Spies have around 6shots before they have to do a full recharge.

Although I am thinking of making the suggestion for version 2.0  to add the wifi hack of DA.  How it works is you can have the default tazer,  or choose a mod that removes tazing capability in favor of wireless and silent hacking.  It would still have the launcher for other gadgets, you can shoot lights and security and hack mercs....you just couldnt shock a merc with it.

That would be fun for stealth spies, suicide for aggro spies....and probably wouldnt work with current CT maps

Guys, who whine about the shotty. What your forgetting is we can change the range and firerate cant we?

Quote from: goodkebab on November 27, 2006, 01:18:36 PM
???

so like just how it is now....but whenever spy uses his tazer  he cant run/hide....sorry dont like that thought.

Spies have around 6shots before they have to do a full recharge.

Although I am thinking of making the suggestion for version 2.0  to add the wifi hack of DA.  How it works is you can have the default tazer,  or choose a mod that removes tazing capability in favor of wireless and silent hacking.  It would still have the launcher for other gadgets, you can shoot lights and security and hack mercs....you just couldnt shock a merc with it.

That would be fun for stealth spies, suicide for aggro spies....and probably wouldnt work with current CT maps

Well I meant after a certain amount of shots you would have to do a recharge.  It would be just like it is now, when you shoot a lot of shots your energy is depleted and it recharges automatically.  But i'm saying this new charging would be in addition to the regular charging.  Say after 24-30 shots, your batteries are completely drained and can't auto-charge like they normally do.  Now, you must go somewhere safe and do this new charging ability (at the click of a button) and you'll have another 24-30 shots of auto-charge. 

Complicated sounding, I know, but I don't know how to explain it well.

I like the idea of the wifi hacking as an option, more variety and definitely cool!

Quote from: DaybreakI got to thinking, that aggro behavior would be greatly reduced if the shots by the spies were actually limited. So essentially giving spies shocker ammo.

The first reason that comes to mind is: Lag.  This would give the host and those living close to them a huge advantage.  I think we all know what it's like to try and taze a strafing merc on a high ping server.  You could mention trying to adjust the amount of shots based up ping or something but you're just adding too many variables.

Quote from: VegaNow, you must go somewhere safe and do this new charging ability (at the click of a button) and you'll have another 24-30 shots of auto-charge.

I also totally disagree with that idea because then you're forcing the spies to play a certain way.  I haven't checked enough of these threads to pick up on how much you guys are trying to change/nerf/alter the gameplay but something such as SS changes seem pretty drastic.  Not to mention that will also be a big pain in the ass for people with higher pings.

When the feature set for spies in DA was originally released people complained that it was removing a spy's ability to aggro, and I think that you're trying to accomplish the same thing here (albeit to a lesser degree).  I'm going to disagree with any fundamental nerfing of a certain gameplay tactic.

I realize that people had a hard time with aggro, some thought it was cheap, but it was part of what comprised CT's character as a game.  If you're going to drop the "shotgun isn't cheap, you just have to learn to adjust" line, I say the same thing about aggro.  The aggro abilities for spies were fine the way they were.  Purely aggro spies didn't stand much of a chance against skilled mercs that were able to adjust to that play style.

Which makes me wonder if some people want 'balance' for the game, or if they're just trying to make it easier to play.  Being a "hardcore" player in the CT community, I'm attached to the things that made CT what it was, made I'm alone on this, but I'm going to have a hard time agreeing with most fundamental changes to parts/all of the gameplay, especially those that simplify any aspect of the game.

first priority is cloning...i really dont see how we can even think of making a radical change to the tazer.

Removal of triple nading MAYBE although I dont personally support it but what I suggest is the implication of new weapons for the spy as a way to give stealth a more viable option.

I came up with an OCP gun type of idea back in CT but over time I thought about changing it a little bit. And add the DA idea of hacking aswell.

I like the direction that DA went with the hacking type of gameplay but I disliked the controls and the effect it had. It was way too simplified. It had some stupid auto lock-on effect, worked over a very limited distance and it even alerted the merc to the fact he was being hacked! That really annoyed me. Hacking a merc took a while and you could loose your lock too easily and

I want to suggest a combination of sticky shocker and hacking device. You must aim with a laser first of all. And what happens is when you bring this laser across a merc it begins to "hack" him and as you hold the laser on the merc you begin to hack him further and further and the closer you are the faster you hack him BUT there is no limit to the distance you can hack him from it is just that at a certain range it becomes very slow to hack him.

If the laser leaves the target for a while the hacking progress decreases at maybe a rate of half the speed the hack was going at or some other variable that would be determined through testing. THat way if you accidentaly leave your target for a split second you wont loose all your progress but if you hack him part of the way and then completely leave the hacking progress will dissapear. Once a spy has hacked a merc he remains in the state for maybe 1:30 during this time from the point when the merc has been hacked to when it wears of the spy is allowed to choose ONE option that stays on the merc through out his hacked period.

The spy can either choose to sabotage his detection devices so he is unable to detect spies with any devices. None of the devices will stop working per se but they just wont give him readings; if a spy runs behind him the SD will not go off, if he sees him with MT the MT wont pick him up and the like.

The spy can also choose to directly and overtly sabotage the merc's systems which results in static across the screen, inoperable SD, visions, and all the basic effects of a chaff/headshot albiet he will be able to reload. Perhaps the timer for this should be reduced to 45 secs but w/e.

Last option is to tap directly into the merc's view where he can see what the merc sees or something close to it kinda like the GRAW teammates HUD system where the spy can see what the merc is seeing so he can judge if his teammate is found out, looking away, or is about to pop him in the head.

Another either option or effect of hacking could be marking the merc on radar. Maybe this would be a seperate option after you hack the merc or maybe it would just be that whenever a merc is hacked he is automatically "spy bulleted" or maybe it only works with one option or another.




Another use for the weapon is silent trap disabling. Disable a trap and it silently goes offline not resulting in a SD ping.

Also for a merc's defense against hacking he could have the ability to "reboot" his system which would be the same as a normal headshot where he looses his HUD entirely for 20 secs or so and he must reboot it. That way a merc may be forced to double guess himself into wondering if he is hacked or not and risking disabling himself allowing spies to ambush him. Or maybe if that is too powerful you would need to go meet up with a team mate to be able to reboot your system or maybe it could just be automatically removed like a spy bullet.


I know it is reminiscent of goodkebab's idea but my personal thought on aggro vs. stealth is not to dissuade aggro but to encourage stealth. It just seems alot of people are approaching it as in issue of either powering up on side or merfing the other while I feel it should be just giving stealth a more viable option in it's situations.

Really nice post with some good ideas.

I personally find the autoAim on the hacking device just fine.  There is a reason it doesnt have a laser....because laser will give the position away.  Heck, even the sound of drawing your gun in stealth mode will give your position away. I am all up for new gadgets that allow for stealthier spies  :)

Range and cone of autoaim can be tweaked.  My prediction is people will prefer tazer on most maps anyways.

Also the easiest and most painless way to curb triple nadding is to change the timer to be the same as it takes to shoot 2 of the same nades(why can you shoot 3 different quickly but not 2 of the same?).  It is subtle, but then tripple nadding comes at the price of a merc no longer being tazed when you shoot the third nad.  Because of that....spies in close quarters with a merc will only have time for 1 nad and then escape to avoid the temporary invulnerability of the merc.

i like GoodKebab's idea about triple nading. It makes perfect sense and wont be too limiting of aggro cause spies can work together to shoot the three nades.

I can understand the changing of the game so that the nades use a universal timer when you shoot them since that is a design oversight at first obviously so I would be open to trying that.

Also I just dont think that the auto lock-on/aim is a good idea. The process of hacking should be as interactive as possible to both promote skills and allow for more useability.

There are too many times in DA I found that it was just annoying how my spy LOCKED onto the damn merc when I wanted to try and look to a different merc.

Another Idea I forgot to mention in the last post was that I wanted to make it so that if you aimed at the merc's head using twitch skills the speed of your hacking would become doubled. On another note the laser I can also understand as being a problem since the merc could obviously get a little jumpy when a laser seems to follow him and he would be slightly nervous. An idea I had was perhaps the laser should only be visible in Night vision. That way a spy could use Night vision and be able to aim properly while still not alerting the merc to the fact that he is being hacked.

Also im guessing that while you are right that spys may prefer sticky shockers but if a hacking device is used properly then it could be many more times effective then a sticky shocker. A merc could be left unable to do anything for 45 secs or he could be lulled into a false sense of security long enough to allow a spy to slip right by undetected.

why not give the hacking device an aim reticle (small one) and giving an icon when it locks.

The only time i experienced frustration with the autoaim is when a light is next to an objective.  If we tighten that up to just with in a small square around the aim reticle it.  I remember back when heart beat sensor was scoffed at...now i see the majority of advanced players using it.  Some gadgets will only reveal their potential with experience.

I like the idea of it behaving like chaff without all the sparkles ...imagine disabling mines

I like the infrared laser idea that psyichic posted, though you should be able to hack the merc with normal/thermal vision on, if you're good at aiming your gun without laser guidance.

However, before going too far with these ideas, I'd like to point out how CT managed to keep all the 8 spygadgets simple & balanced (exept sticky cam, which in my opinion rule all) so that you'll always regret not taking snare or camo or bullet and so on. While you're "adding" these neat lil' things, try not to make one gadget outshine or totally replace the other.

Lurxh makes a good point. I played CT on the XBox (no flaming please) and as i played (even deathmatch) theres always those situations where i regreted not bringing camo or snares or bullets, so there shouldnt be something that would make me not regret anymore cause that gets boring.

granted...i think we are just trying to come up with a justifiable balance for bringing the hacking device into the limelight.

The other solution to the hack device is to make it an attachment to the tazer....kinda like mercs choosing shotty or rifle.  That way, for production purposes it doesnt create more work (very important for us). -both in animation, modelling...etc etc.

If we do that...we are free to use the laser from the tazer.  Actually...perhaps that is best both in a production sense, and simplicity.

I like the sound of this hacking device. However, I'm not liking the lock on buisness.
Why does it need to lock onto the target? The new hacking device could be like the Merc Laser.
The merc laser if maintained steady on a spy gives shows him up on radar and able to be mic hacked.
I'm sure applying this type of weapon to a spy to disable mercs and other things silently is possible. Not having it lock-on means it requires skill to use effectively, much like the laser or the HB or almost all other items.

I think combining it as a weapon and it taking up a slot would be the best scenario. That way, you could be completely stealthy. or a No noise spy. You take the hacking device, you lose your ability to slow down a merc with the shocker and you lose your ability to shoot out mines, but still able to disable them from afar. Litterally you become a stealth only spy. Which means that your teamate, will be needed to protect you when you need to.

So what happens when you're teamate is dead? Better have equiped smoke flash and cams for that case. Or maybe you went too stealthy and have camo and HB and smoke. That way, since you chose the hacking device you wished you had the ability to stun a merc.

Increasing Stealth should be just that. having the hacking device included or combined with the SS will make it too powerful of a device. You take the remote hacking, you lose a device.

EDIT
LOL I just checked some previous posts and kebab mentioned something similar, except without the loss of a device.

Wait......that was my idea  >:(   ;D


Anyways the auto-aim I must say I agree with Daybreak on. Auto-aim was a useless feature that can become a hassel and it takes all the skill out of using the device.

My idea as posted before was that we turn it into a laser and that depending upon the distance from a merc the hacking speed increases aslong as the laser is on the merc. If you can hold the laser over the merc's head it doubles your hacking speed. If the laser leaves the merc his hacking progress will gradually decrease thus a spy can accidentally loose the merc but then return to his hack a second or two later.

Doing that will atleast keep the skill factor in for the gun and you can make hacking more effective then just this simple little system malfunction that merc's experience and balance more powerful effects with a skill needed to hack the mercs.


What I don't get goodkebab is why you really want the auto-aim back. No offense but could you atleast explain why you feel the auto-aim should be there? What is wrong with a skill based aiming system?

Skill based should be easier to program. Saves a lock-on function :D

Am I the only one who doesn't think aggro is necessarily a bad thing?

EDIT: Just read Gimp's post, and I agree with him 100%. Just because YOU don't like aggro, or like playing aggro spies, doesn't mean that everyone else has to go along with it, too.

Also, the ammo will be hell on lag. I really like the rechargable 6-shot system we have now, and can't see how that can be improved. The shocker auto-aim is one of the few automatic things we SHOULD have because of the free-flowing camera angle. It's necessary and is not useless by any means.

I do think that the rifle could use 30 shots instead of 25, and the uzi does need something that stops people from whining about lag so much. If it can't be fixed, remove it entirely and revert the rifle to PT behavior and have the shotgun as a CQB specialist weapon. You have to admit the uzi is a little strong because most maps bring the spies and mercs in the optimal range for the uzi.

I also think there needs to be a happy medium between the fortresses of PT, and the lack of passive security in many maps in CT. Being able to sneak is good, but on some maps it's just way too open which results in the spies just running around with no penalty at all rather than actually sneaking from place to place. I have in mind specifically Museum. In PT there was a motion sensor at every entrance in the ceiling, then one at every vent, plus random lasers, plus cameras at the doorways. That's way too much. However, in CT there is only the two lasers in front of the cafe objectives and the disk. That's way too little.

I think Factory is done very nicely with the passive security. Orphanage is too, mostly. Something needs to be done to prevent the spies from rushing the objectives besides two exceptional snipers shooting at the spies up front.

You should also find a way to make lasers/alarms lock bomb objectives.

There are other minor fixes that can be done as well, but overall I think Gimp is right -- don't mess too much with a winning formula.

no your not spekkio i love to play aggro and do on most levls, but some people think its unbalanced. I personally enjoy playing aggro spies as merc cause it gives me a chance to use my tazer xD.

I don't really play aggro, neither does Gimp. I take triple nades on like 3 out of the 11 maps. Still, that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be able to play that way if they choose. Also realize that not allowing a spy to throw 2 quick grenades will upset the balance of the game when a spy is protecting his hacking teammate.

I didn't read past page 2, but i have a small suggestion for more unique Merc weapons.

What do you think about attachments, like Scope, Nade Launcher, High-Rof Mod, Bigger Clip, Maybe something like a top-gun attachment that allows shotgun ammo, etc.
Same gun model, but the attachments that let the player create their own unique weapon to suit their play style more?

I don't know how well this would work but i'm just throwing ideas out there.
Been playing a bit of GRAW lately, and i like the whole weapon attachment system.

Feel free to criticize.  ;)
Also hey, the smilies on this forum are cool.  :P

we wont be able to change functionality in the first release....but superficially....we can make it look like we have 1 gun with three different attachments ....ie scope, shorter stock and larger clip (uzi)  and shot gun attachment.

Ah yeah, i was just thinking say, if you chose Nades as an item.
It would auto attatch a nade launcher to the bottom of the gun.

Stuff like that.

Quote from: Spekkio on December 24, 2006, 04:40:22 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't think aggro is necessarily a bad thing?

While aggro shouldnt' be eliminated entirely, it could use the following nerfs:

1) get rid of the side grab (grabbing should be directly from behind, not the odd behind-and-to-the-left thing). This is probably the biggest aggro offender in my opinion, because it makes it possible to grab mercs with their backs to the wall. 

2) get rid of quick cams. I'm not talking about removing cams in general, just adding a slightly longer lag time before cameras can gas someone, especially in close combat. The game shouldn't turn into a battle of gassing a merc in mid-combat with a sticky cam, that seems far too similar to a pure FPS game. If you need a quick means to incapacitate a merc, it should be using your shocker. I'd really prefer cams be more of an ambush device as opposed to something that wins a game because the merc happened to get his gas mask on one second too late.

3) Get rid of SS+ triple nading. This one is fairly minor if you remove the side grab, since a cunning merc could still get his bearings and find a wall, but still it makes a merc a little too helpless for my liking and feels too much like a direct assault.

As compensation for removing this stuff you can have jumping no longer make a merc ungrabbable.

The back-and-to-the-left grabbing is there cuz the gun is on the right side, making them harder to grab?
Quick cams are good.
Why shouldn't people be allowed to triple nade? That's just silly, imo.

And sif be able to grab a merc that's in mid-air.  ??? :-\

Just a few ideas to stop 'annoying agro.'

With the tazer make it aim like the torque bow in Gears of War (if any of you have played it) and give it a limited range. This way when the spies are being chased they cant just instantly turn a shoot them and it also means that they cant move whilst aiming, give the thing a range limit and then the shocker isnt so agro any more. Make the gun glow (blue tip) where the taze is and make it more realistic. A suprising amount of people dont know that long range tazers require a piece of metal on the end of a piece of cable, this would be good for locating spies who are hiding and shooting.

When the spies are upclose you could add the non-lethal shotgun from DA-SP. Make it so it only hurts the spies slightly but causes them to recoil for a split second, this would give the mercs time to blast those few final shots or run away. Why not make it an attachment/gadget instead of a weapon.

Quote from: Raz0rx on February 18, 2007, 09:27:11 PM
The back-and-to-the-left grabbing is there cuz the gun is on the right side, making them harder to grab?

It makes mercs a lot easier to grab, since you acn grab one with his back directly against the wall. That needs to go.

Quote
Quick cams are good.

A bit too good, and it turns the game into too much of a direct combat game, especially when you're dealing with a master of quick cam use. Cameras are designed more of an ambush tool than a direct combat device. You shouldnt' be using them in the middle of a firefight, at least not wtihout some prep time, like rounding a corner and firing a cam there, and waiting a second or two for the merc to follow.

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Why shouldn't people be allowed to triple nade? That's just silly, imo.

Triple nading as a whole is pretty silly really. It was always a glitch of the launcher mechanics that allowed you to launch three separate grenades at super fast speeds. I don't see why spies can't get by with a single grenade or two while the merc is stunned by the shocker. You really don't need all three grenades.

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And sif be able to grab a merc that's in mid-air.  ??? :-\

It's pretty silly that mercs are jumping around anyway. Jumping was sort of a way to balance out mercs on the xbox since they couldn't turn as fast, so they got the jump + quick turn maneuver. On PC this is totally unnecessary and mercs might as well not even be able to jump at all.

Sounds like you wan't a DA clone, rather than a CT clone.

What you're also forgetting is changing something small COULD have a big impact on balance...

Quote from: Raz0rx on February 22, 2007, 12:16:01 PM
Sounds like you wan't a DA clone, rather than a CT clone.

What you're also forgetting is changing something small COULD have a big impact on balance...

Well, no I don't want a DA clone, DA was pretty terrible. It made stealth kills tough due to the unbeatable PD and took away crucial stealth ambush tactics, like back to the wall. DA took much of the strategy out of the game by removing mines and creating routes by which a spy could almost completely avoid the merc. Literally the only way to detect the spy was by the PD in some cases. 

DA took the anti-aggro trend way too far and changed the entire playstyle of the game.

I'm not suggesting we take away the shocker gun or remove all spy offenses. It's much like the shift from PT to CT, where spy offenses got toned down. In fact, I think the changes I am suggesting are promoting  more strategic play. I want to emphasize strategy and stealth over just blatant FPS run and gun skills. I mean if we wanted to play a game where the spy and merc both point guns at each other and try to shoot at each other, we'd just play UT in the first place. Just like SS+double jump in PT, side grabbing and quick cams give a lone spy too much offensive capability.

I don't have much of a problem saying "the merc can be invulnerable if he wants to", because this game isn't about killing the merc, it's about completing objectives. So if a merc has his back to the wall, then I'm ok with saying you can't grab him at all. Go hack and objective. If the merc stays there and safe, you win. If he leaves and exposes his back, well then your partner can grab him. And just because you can't triple nade, doesn't mean that your nades are totalyl useless. You could probably SS the merc's visor (taking away his visions), fire a flash, then run up close and drop a smoke. It'd be a bit tougher to pull that off now without triple nade, but it wouldnt' be impossible. I don't think removing it would be all that bad.

And you're still able to grab mercs with two spies fairly effectively. I'm just trying to limit the full-assault style of play, because after all, we're writing a stealth game, so stealth should be the main priority. Lets focus on the misdirection and mine placements and such, as opposed to just a spy rushing in firing cams like a madman.

I don't really think these changes will impact balance that much, unless you're talking about a full-assault aggro player. But as stated before, if the spies are just going to rush the mercs like it was a pure FPS, why aren't we just playing UT? We didn't like it in PT when spies just ran over mercs, and I don't think we really like it in CT either.

Really, I think the side grab is the most essential thing to remove. Slowing down quick cams and fixing triple nade can be something that we could balance test. It's easy enough to fix if it doesn't work out, as it's just a timer variable that can be easily changed.

Why not just occam's razor's it? Electrical suit gadget that stuns/knocks down spies that try to grab, active for a longish period (10 seconds?) after it's use, with limited usage (4 times?), that won't affect elbowing or sticky shockers.

If you're surprised by a merc, shock and run away. If you're going to "ambush grab" a merc, his suit won't be on because he won't be expecting you (maybe the suit takes one or two seconds to activate, incase you screw up your first try). And if you really really want to aggro with your partner, just hit and run until the merc runs out of charges.

Interesting idea. During the extra time, your partner can save you.

Well, I was thinking they would run away since it's pointless to aggro a merc you can't grab...unless you can jump on him, never thought of that...there goes the simplicity.

Edit: Do you people mind getting jumped on while surrounded by gas, spies and overall confusion?

I've come to accept everything in CT as part of the game (even though some things are a bit frustrating at times). You learn to work around little annoyances.

In your case, side grabs, quick cams, and triple nades.
I very rarely encounter triple nades, i don't get cammed too often... my bigger annoyances are grabs that are dead on that hit, shock charges, and auto-aim jumping/charging.

Quote from: Overstatement on February 23, 2007, 08:43:10 PM
Why not just occam's razor's it? Electrical suit gadget that stuns/knocks down spies that try to grab, active for a longish period (10 seconds?) after it's use, with limited usage (4 times?), that won't affect elbowing or sticky shockers.

If you're surprised by a merc, shock and run away. If you're going to "ambush grab" a merc, his suit won't be on because he won't be expecting you (maybe the suit takes one or two seconds to activate, incase you screw up your first try). And if you really really want to aggro with your partner, just hit and run until the merc runs out of charges.

Well I don't really want to go that far to the point that mercs can become grab immune, unless the grab immunity requires that they remain stationary, then maybe. Even still, it'd be pretty risky to give them invulnerability, since it means that ambush grabs may also get negated, since mercs can just come running into a place being hacked with their shock suit on, similar to how mercs enter a dangerous area with their gas mask active.

I think it'd be fine if we just made mercs perfectly safe while in a corner. While moving around they should be vulnerable.

well i read most of this but dont have time to read the rest so if this idea was stated already sorry.

how bout giving a limit to spies on how many nades they can carry.  say like 6 nades total.  so if they take smoke, they will have 6 smoke nades.  if they take smoke and chaff, they will have 3 of each.  if they take triple nade, they will have 2 of each.  this may force the spies to be a little more selective about their equipment and their use.

ps.
change time in between shocking merc from 12 to 15 or 16 seconds.

yea umm i guess that would be nice with ammo but really i would try to keep it? i dont really mind but i aggro at some maps and go stealth at some and Yeaa I taze a lot:D for some people this would be a disadvantage and for some an advantage!_!

Some nice discussion here...

1. Regarding cams: I honestly rarely get cammed by someone who is running from me and tries to quick-cam me from around the corner. Such a tactic is extremely obvious. I see no need to 'nerf' this because whenever someone tries it, they usually end up dead. The only time where this becomes frustrating is when you get your mask on but lag says you didn't.

Also, realize that if you take away quick-cams from a spy who's running away, you take away quick-cams froma stealthy spy too. If I'm in a dark corner and a merc doesn't know I'm there next to him, why shouldn't I be able to quick cam him? Now, before you say "well why don't you grab him?", the merc may not have his back to me and standing up might give away my position.

If you don't know what I mean, play against vantage. He's the king of the stealthy quick-cam, imo.

2. Regarding triple nades/seefoo's idea: Definitely viable. I think, though, that the max should be somewhere around 8-10. But take away the shooting of triple nades, and you also take away the usage of double nades. Mercs win more rounds than spies already on most maps; do we really need to nerf spies even more?

3. Regarding increasing shock invulnerability: I don't think it needs it, to be honest.

4. Regarding the side grab: Yes, the left side grab is silly.  No, it doesn't make the merc easier to grab. As a matter of fact, it makes it harder. A lot of players, even those who are moderately skilled, would sneak up directly behind a merc and get pissed off that they elbowed him. Also, it's retarded that all the hiding spots have to be from the left of the merc or else you're doomed to an elbow. I'm in full support of adjusting the grab radius to something like 45 degrees behind each side of the merc.

5. Regarding jumping: This is a necessary evil. It would be ridiculously easy to aggro mercs if not for jumping and the fact that it gives mercs a short immunity from grabs. What I think needs change is the following: if you charge into a wall, you should not be able to jump or turn for about a half second longer (wayyy too many funny punches come from this). If you charge into air, you should be able to turn but you shouldn't be able to jump until you are recovered.

Also, funny-punching needs to be fixed. If the merc is in the air, either two things could happen: 1. the spy doesn't do the elbow hit or 2: the spy does the hit, but the merc is affected by it the moment he hits the ground. I prefer 1.

6. Regarding shock charges: This is a result of shock detection being client side. I've had some funny instances where a reeeealllly high ping player joins up on my own server, and the shocks don't register until a full 2 seconds later. Shock detection should be host-side just like merc bullets. This is a netcode issue.

7. This game is stealth-ACTION. I don't know why everyone thinks that stealthy gameplay should trump everything and that we need to punish anyone who doesn't sneak around slowly 110% of the time. I love playing a mostly stealthy style, but let's face it: spies need a way to defend themselves. When people say things like "the game isn't about killing mercs" they're wrong. If you kill the mercs, you win. The reason few people try to win that way is because it's a lot harder to kill the mercs off for 6 lives when you only have 8 and your tools for killing are much less powerful than the merc's. Let me put it another way: it is already a far superior strategy to go for objectives than to try to take mercs head-on. That tells me that we don't need to go nuts nerfing triple nades, quick cams, or any other aggro techniques. Plus, mercs still win more than spies. Seriously, if you're getting eliminated often, then you just need to get better at the game.

8. Also, while we're on the topic of aggro, we need to make the jump hit detection a happy medium between the way too forgiving host-side hit detection, and the way too unforgiving client-side hit detection for all players regardless of being host or client.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 01, 2007, 07:58:23 PM

7. This game is stealth-ACTION. I don't know why everyone thinks that stealthy gameplay should trump everything and that we need to punish anyone who doesn't sneak around slowly 110% of the time. I love playing a mostly stealthy style, but let's face it: spies need a way to defend themselves. When people say things like "the game isn't about killing mercs" they're wrong. If you kill the mercs, you win. The reason few people try to win that way is because it's a lot harder to kill the mercs off for 6 lives when you only have 8 and your tools for killing are much less powerful than the merc's. Let me put it another way: it is already a far superior strategy to go for objectives than to try to take mercs head-on. That tells me that we don't need to go nuts nerfing triple nades, quick cams, or any other aggro techniques. Plus, mercs still win more than spies. Seriously, if you're getting eliminated often, then you just need to get better at the game.

Well, if the game turns into a simple matter of smoking, running around and cracking necks like a FPS, then it's no longer a stealth game, at all. If it's like that, then it's just UT with melee combat. And we do need to preserve stealth as being the superior style. Lets also be clear that aggro need not just be about snapping necks and killing the mercs deathmatch style. you can very well snap a neck or gas a merc then complete an objective.

Because lets face it, stealth has a big disadvantage that aggro doesn't. It's slow. Aggro players don't have to worry about the clock and they give mercs far less time to set up mines and other defenses. If we don't encourage stealth, people won't do it. The same way they don't bother doing it in UT or Quake or any other FPS game out there.

This isn't to say that aggro can't work at all, merely that it has to be highly inefficient compared to doing things the stealthy way. And this is stuff we can play around with. Modifying the time it takes to discharge gas on a sticky or fire multiple grenades from the launcher is just a timer variable that can easily be modified so we can see if the game indeed becomes unbalanced when aggro is toned down. Worse that happens is we just change the delay variables back. Nothing is written in stone. I'm just saying that we should try new things and see if maybe they improve gameplay.

Another big factor in stealth versus aggro is on the merc detection side. This game probably should tone down MT, or remove it entirely. And of course probably cap maximum screen resolution for mercs as well.

QuoteWell, if the game turns into a simple matter of smoking, running around and cracking necks like a FPS, then it's no longer a stealth game, at all. If it's like that, then it's just UT with melee combat. And we do need to preserve stealth as being the superior style. Lets also be clear that aggro need not just be about snapping necks and killing the mercs deathmatch style. you can very well snap a neck or gas a merc then complete an objective.

This is impossible against non-noobs now, so why do we need to nerf anything?

QuoteBecause lets face it, stealth has a big disadvantage that aggro doesn't. It's slow. Aggro players don't have to worry about the clock and they give mercs far less time to set up mines and other defenses. If we don't encourage stealth, people won't do it.

Plenty of people already play stealthy in the current gameplay mechanics.

I kind of don't understand...are you playing the same game I am when you play ct? No offense or anything, but you just sound like a noob who got aggroed, lost, and now think that the game needs to change instead of you just improving your skills. A team that comes straight at you with purely aggro is going to lose most of the time. 2 spies vs. 2 mercs = dead spies unless the spies are a much better team. The teams that win the most use a mix of aggro and stealth to accomplish their goals. Since this is a stealth-action game, that's the way it should be.

You want to talk about efficiency -- aggro is inefficient because it's that much easier for the mercs to kill you. Merc mistakes are much more forgiving against aggro teams, especially when the spies can't get objectives because they're tripping alarms all over the place.

Furthermore, stealthy doesn't mean slow. Lrn2usesnares. A couple of well-placed snares and you'll be able to run pretty much anywhere in the map without impedence, so long as the merc isn't in the room. A lot of people have this misconception that stealth = hiding in vent for 5 min waiting for merc to leave. That's never going to happen because the objectives are static, so that means you have to take him out or make him think both spies are elsewhere.

Not saying that CT was perfect, but quick-cams weren't one of the things that are broken. What you do need to fix is that retarded menu that comes up that says "Last cam/new cam" when you go to fire a new cam. There's no need for that when we have a separate key devoted to going to the last cam. PT degenerated to a game of aggro-Super-Mario-Bros. spies. CT is nothing like that. You need to look no further than the meager winrates of spies on maps that force aggro only like Warehouse, Deftech, and Bank to realize that mix style >>> stealth only = aggro only.

As far as MT whores...that's really a function of the map more than anything. In most maps, there are obfuscated passageways for the spies to take to get to objectives. MT won't see a spy in the vent, or a ceiling. All you gotta do as spy is be cafeful and creep by when the merc has his back to you (or leaves the room). However, some maps require the spies to traverse wide-open space, and that's where MT gets annoying. Maps like Deftech or Station sector 2. In those maps, though, people underestimate the power of a sticky shocker headshot. Most MT whores are completely lost when their screen isn't entirely red, so that buys you about 10 seconds of mobility. The problem is getting the tazer headshot before the merc sees you and snipes you in the head.

I wouldn't be opposed to making MT force normal-post render. What that will do is give a shortened max distance that a merc can see a spy if he's not setting off the grey box. Other than that, nothing is really needed except not to make idiotic maps.

It was either Gimp or Cataclysm who said it first, but it's 100% true: MT is the crutch of a bad merc.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 02, 2007, 05:08:34 PM
I kind of don't understand...are you playing the same game I am when you play ct? No offense or anything, but you just sound like a noob who got aggroed, lost, and now think that the game needs to change instead of you just improving your skills.

Well no, I've played a lot. And what's sad is that when I lost games, it was almost exclusively to aggro. Except in big stealth maps like orphanage or factory or when my partner just plain sucked, Stealth teams would not beat me. Yeah, I MT whored, and I had a pretty high screen resolution with post render quality turned on. But I didn't even use EAX with a fancy sound card either. Meaning that my spy detection skills weren't even as good as they could have been.

Even so, it was virtually impossible for a spy to sneak past me or get stealth grabs. The games I lost with a competent partner were almost always against aggro teams with a combo of triple nade or quick cam tactics. Granted, it took a good and coordinated aggro team to win, but nonetheless, the point was that stealth generally just didn't work. This isn't to say that I ended every match with 0 merc lives, merely that for the spies to get the objective my neck was generally broken, or they were busy smoking/shocking me while the other guy hacked.

This led me to believe the following:
First, stealth needed to be upgraded (more or less translating to MT needing to be nerfed). In most maps it just wasn't viable to win via stealth.

Second, aggro needed to be weakened somewhat. As you said, mercs do win more games on average than spies, so it's got to be a two way street. The mercs ability to detect the spy should be weakened somewhat and the mercs ability to fight the spy should be increased.

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You want to talk about efficiency -- aggro is inefficient because it's that much easier for the mercs to kill you. Merc mistakes are much more forgiving against aggro teams, especially when the spies can't get objectives because they're tripping alarms all over the place.

Setting off alarms? Are you kidding? I'm talking about a good aggro team, not a couple of death match noobs. Good aggro teams generally know how to drop chaff.

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Not saying that CT was perfect, but quick-cams weren't one of the things that are broken. What you do need to fix is that retarded menu that comes up that says "Last cam/new cam" when you go to fire a new cam. There's no need for that when we have a separate key devoted to going to the last cam. PT degenerated to a game of aggro-Super-Mario-Bros. spies. CT is nothing like that. You need to look no further than the meager winrates of spies on maps that force aggro only like Warehouse, Deftech, and Bank to realize that mix style >>> stealth only = aggro only.

Well, no, actually aggro only > stealth only, at least on most maps. While mixing can be useful on occasion, you can beat good players going aggro only, but almost never going stealth only.

As far as those maps, I'd say bank is about the only semi reasonable one, the rest are ridiculously pro-merc.

Warehouse is effectively just a frag whore map. That map tends to be tough even for aggro spies, because you need 1 spy to hack and 1 spy to neutralize both mercs. IF you don't, the frag is in the air the moment you start hacking. By the time you roll away and get in position to start hacking again, the other merc is getting up from the cam. Warehouse may be an aggro-required map, but it hardly favors aggro spies like it did in PT.

Deftech is awful map design. Inside buildings, it's tight corridors and few places to hide. It's hard to circle  a merc in this environment because you're in such tight quarters. Neither stealth nor aggro works on deftech effectively. Deftech is the quintessential pro-merc map.  Only way to win this one is to be good at quick cams, because it's literally all that works. Even then... you're at a big disadvantage.

As far as bank, that's like warehouse-lite. Still there are enough positions such that you can't automatically frag every console from anywhere on the main room, so aggro has a bit more of a chance and getting down to the bottom objective is usually just a simple speed rush, so it tends to be a one objective map anyway.

Quote
As far as MT whores...that's really a function of the map more than anything. In most maps, there are obfuscated passageways for the spies to take to get to objectives. MT won't see a spy in the vent, or a ceiling. All you gotta do as spy is be cafeful and creep by when the merc has his back to you (or leaves the room). However, some maps require the spies to traverse wide-open space, and that's where MT gets annoying. Maps like Deftech or Station sector 2. In those maps, though, people underestimate the power of a sticky shocker headshot. Most MT whores are completely lost when their screen isn't entirely red, so that buys you about 10 seconds of mobility. The problem is getting the tazer headshot before the merc sees you and snipes you in the head.

The worst part about MT is just the incidental detections that it gets. I mean the mercs back could be turned to you and you don't even know he's in MT, and then all of a sudden, *poof* you're detected and you may not even know it. And after that, you're just screwed. MT requires just incidental exposure, something that may not even be all that visible on normal vision, for instance in the grated ceiling above the fish tank room in aquarius. Yeah you can slow walk all the time, but great, you're wasting more time and giving me more time to spot you with the night vision effect of MT.

Suffice to say, I tended to like the DA fix to MT a lot better. MT is the universal stealth hoser ability. Trust me on that, it's basically all I use. I never use standard vision, just MT and EMF.

As far as map design, having fairly wide open areas isn't necessarily bad, We don't want the game to turn into a series of corridors where by stealth is just a matter of using heartbeat sensor and a little luck. Because if you have total cover most of the time, it becomes dangerously close to what DA is now. You want stealth to be viable, but you still want to give mercs a chance to stop stealth. In general, that means having some open rooms where a merc can chance upon a spy with his flashlight. It's anticlimactic to have a gray box do that for you, even when your back is turned. I'd rather be detected by a merc's careful searching as opposed to the overly sensitive MT vision that happens to pick me up because I crouch walked instead of crouch creeped.

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I wouldn't be opposed to making MT force normal-post render. What that will do is give a shortened max distance that a merc can see a spy if he's not setting off the grey box. Other than that, nothing is really needed except not to make idiotic maps.

Even on xbox, where MT is normal post render, I still can whore MT and do better than using the flashlight. Granted you don't have those long range MT snipes that you can get in PC, but it's still an effective tactic. 

If you want a possible fix for MT, you can go with the DA one, or perhaps do MT red vision similar to how DA does EMF, where you have to stand still for the vision to clear. So running around with MT is all blurry. If the spy isn't moving you pretty much can't see anything.

Personally though, I just prefer the way DA handles motion tracking. It was one of the few good fixes that DA brought about, forcing people to resort to using their flashlights again. And anything that forces people back their flashlights is good.

I'm thinking we put the white outline MT into normal vision, like DA and replace the existing MT vision with a battle vision, perhaps it could involve putting on your gas mask and makes you immune to flashbangs, all at the cost of quality vision. So if you're facing off against some aggro spies, you can do that. Against stealthers though, battle vision should be basically useless.

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It was either Gimp or Cataclysm who said it first, but it's 100% true: MT is the crutch of a bad merc.

One could also say quick cams and triple nades are the crutch of a bad spy as well. People tend to use what's effective, and cycling MT and EMF is the most effective merc tactic. Not to mention MT made you immune to flashbangs, yet another great reason to use it.

Even if the spies did sneak past you, going at minimum speed was so slow that they had to do it absolutely perfectly or run out of time. And it wasn't too hard to pick them up on MT even if they didn't set off the gray noob box. What's even better is that if they tried to stay stationary, sometimes you'd see em anyway and you'd get a clean headshot. If they tried to move, then your box had them and you could follow their progress even after they returned to cover. I can't count the number of potential stealth grabs thwarted by the fact that I noticed the box stopped after getting behind cover. Oh look, he must have put his back to the wall and be ready to grab me.

Seriously, MT was crazy awesome.

ingame name?

Well....I can see we've abandoned occam's razor.

Quote from: Overstatement on March 02, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
Well....I can see we've abandoned occam's razor.

Honestly, we're building this game from scratch and implementing DA style MT is actually easier than implementing CT style.

First, DAs is just a feature that says "If spy is visible and spyspeed = run, then put a white outline on him". For CT MT you're going to have to first describe the red vision, then code the grey box and then make it so it detects objects.

As far as simplicity goes, the DA version of MT is real easy.

Alternately, we could just go with the simplest method, which is no MT at all. Though that would definitely make smoke grenades much more powerful.

Disagree... dynamic outer-hull algorithms are way more complex than moving a grey box around. Both in programming and in calculation complexity.

Actually, I would just render the model twice. Once for the outline (slightly zoomed in and white colour) then render the actual model in colour over the first one. I've done it before, works great! But I was commenting on these very long posts we seem to be having.

InvisibleMan,

You need to go out to your local flea market and pick up a copy of CT for the PC from the bargain bin. Why? Well, there was this SCCT tourney a while ago for the PC, and not one aggro team made it deep into the tourney. The best combination is a 'visible' and 'invisible' spy. The visible spy creates diversions/gets seen more often while the 'invisible' spy sneaks to get grabs or quick-cam the merc from the shadows. Unfortunately a lot of the players from the tourney have since left, but there are some who still play. I could come up with a list of about 10 names of people who win with a primarily stealthy approach to the game. Mr.Mic, who I've paired up with since my old partner LoChang left, and I have argued many times about whether to take a stealthy or aggro approach to the game (him aggro, me stealth). Oh, and FWIW, Lochang and I won the North American division of that tourney and we didn't play aggro. The team we played in the finals for that division was stealthy too -- seefoo and vantage. But I digress. That says to me that both approaches are viable, which is a good thing. It encourages diversity and creativity, instead of saying "no, you HAVE to play this way."

Also, aggroing in lag = death.

You're an Xbox player, so I understand your gripe with aggro. But trust me when I say that aiming on a PC is >>>>>> aiming on a console when you're the merc. Good mercs end up beating aggro-only spies extremely often. Also, the gasmask is quicker to put on in the PC; all I gotta do is hit 4 then right click which is a lot quicker than holding down the B? button to select the equipment before activating it.  I think that's why you have such an issue with the cams. Trust me when I say that on the PC this is pretty much a non-issue. Yes, spies who try to quick-cam in a fight are acting FPS-like. However, they are also acting very stupid because they're about to get shot in the head by the merc who activated his gasmask (although like I said before, there's the off-chance that lag kicks in and the merc gets KOed anyway).

If PS were being developed for a console, you may have some good points, but it's being developed for the PC. I suggest you play that version for a significant time and we'll see if you still have the same opinions.

As for MT,

I agree about the looking behind thing. All I was saying is that eventually, as a spy you learn to stay out of the merc's LOS period so you don't set off MT. The "MT being a crutch of a bad merc" means that you don't actually go and look for the spies, you expect MT to do everything for you. Good spies know how to circumvent that, so good luck with it. I wouldn't be opposed to making the MT only detect in the merc's FOV, but there's one dilemma if you do that: it strengthens aggro, which you detest in the first place.

Maybe put an indicator on the merc's back so the spy can see what vision he's in? Also, as a compromise, is it possible to have a longer delay if the spy moves out of the merc's FOV (like, spy must be in constant motion for 1.5 seconds before box goes off), but if he moves in the merc's FOV the grey box goes off instantly? Would be a nice compromise to the current system, but again I worry about how that will strengthen aggro.

I don't like the DA version of MT. It's annoying and useless. If the spy is moving in front of my face like that, I can already see him. Plus the guard against flashbangs balances the game.You'd be better off just giving the mercs night vision than that type of MT.

ADDED: If you're so inclined, this is a link to Seefoo's videos. He and vantage are one of the, if not the stealthiest team in CT. Most of those clips come against teams who know what they're doing, they were just able to trick the mercs that badly. He's even got some clips of playing against me and Lochang in some of the vids. Ah fun times....why did vantage and lo quit damnit?

Anyway, here's the link. Enjoy:
http://hosted.filefront.com/AppleJacksCk

Yeah, it's admittedly been awhile since I've played the PC version. Mostly I got sick of it and switched to the Xbox due to the fact that stealth was so screwed over. I'd say the high resolution MT and EAX omnihearing was far more of an issue for me switching than just plain aggro.

The only time aggro really became a true pain was when it was the host doing it (and lets face it, pure aggro teams pretty much always host). Besides that it was probably more of a gut reaction because I saw aggro way more on the PC than playing the xbox version. Virtually like half the teams I played on PC at one point were solid aggroers. Though this was also likely caused by the fact that stealth just plain sucked against certain people.

Quick cams are much more of an xbox thing I think, but triple nading is far more common on PC. And really probably if we made gas mask client side, then we might solve all the problems with cams, as most of the time the frustration did come from just not getting the mask on in time (which happened to be a half second before the cam went off, but before the server registered the mask as 'on')

I rarely remember getting triple naded in Xbox matches, so I still think they're somewhat of an issue for the PC, though possibly something we could deal with if we take out the side grab. The biggest problem with triplenading is that you can back into a corner and still get side grabbed. 

Really though, like I've been saying all along, I consider the side grab to be the biggest problem in the game and the only must-fix. As far as triple nades and quick cams go, we can try stuff out with them. If we find it makes the game suck to take them out, then it's just a matter of changing a simple timer variable. Maybe it makes a better game and maybe it doesn't, but the capability of testing it is so simple, I think it's worth trying out.

Regarding MT, I think that's probably the biggest enemy to stealth. There are a number of things we could do with it.

-FIrst we could just use DA MT, that'd probably be the simplest and require the least coding.
-Another option would be to eliminate MTing things not in the mercs field of view, or having it detect limited amounts of motion depending on region. For instance, within the merc's FoV performs as MT does now, but behind the merc only detects a spy who is running (which somewhat keeps the anti-aggro part of it). Also, I'd make MT require a somewhat clear LoS to the spy, no more of this crap where it picks up an only partially visible spy who is hiding in the ceiling grating above Aquarius fish tank room for instance. It should work through smoke, but not through actual hard partial cover.
-We could keep MT as it is in CT, but add the blurriness effect similar to EMF in DA for mercs that move. That way you can very well use it to track motion, but it's poor for night vision (unless you're stationary).

Definitely though some deliberate effort should be made to keep the detail down on MT, so that we don't have the high resolution + post render problems that made the PC version really suck (at least in my opinion). Merc vision should be capped in terms of maximum detail level, so we don't get crap like people sniping in EMF across the level when the spy didn't even have a vision on, or the easy to see camo suit. Cause seriously, that made the PC version of CT really lame.

QuoteYeah, it's admittedly been awhile since I've played the PC version. Mostly I got sick of it and switched to the Xbox due to the fact that stealth was so screwed over. I'd say the high resolution MT and EAX omnihearing was far more of an issue for me switching than just plain aggro.

I agree that this was probably a big turn-off for a lot of gamers and increased the learning curve dramatically. Not only did you have to be sneaky, you had to overcome super-hearing and super-sight, too. Still, like I said before, people have since learned to deal with it. In the end, the PC community as a whole (well, the ones who stuck around at least) became better players because of it.

QuoteReally though, like I've been saying all along, I consider the side grab to be the biggest problem in the game and the only must-fix. As far as triple nades and quick cams go, we can try stuff out with them. If we find it makes the game suck to take them out, then it's just a matter of changing a simple timer variable. Maybe it makes a better game and maybe it doesn't, but the capability of testing it is so simple, I think it's worth trying out.

As far as the cam thing goes, I know for a fact that there are at least a half-dozen people who use quick-cams stealthily. This circumvents the bs that you'd encounter when you try to go for a grab. I don't need to test it to be able to say that you'd be gimping stealth as much as you'd be gimping aggro if you adjusted the timer on the cams. Like I said before, since quick-cams around corners when the merc knows you're there rarely work anyway, you'd actually be gimping stealth more than aggro.

Yeah, the side-grab doesn't make much sense, and it probably leads to more front-grabs than it should. I would definitely like the grab box to be adjusted if at all possible.

As for the aggro teams always hosting, that's probably why no purely aggro team made it far in the tourney (each team had to host half the games). When we played our rounds, if we had the option we would actually have the mercs host because there are a lot more things you can do as spy to exploit host advantage. As merc, you just get better aim and you can hear poisons (which I don't know if you're supposed to or not). Both of which are relatively easy to adjust to.

Your idea of MT only detecting a running spy from behind but detecting the same array of motion that it does now when you're looking at someone sounds interesting. I'm not a programmer, though, so I don't know if that can actually be done, but it would be a good fix to the problem.

Also, in PT there was a static noise when MT was activated. I believe this should be returned because it will make the merc sacrifice some hearing for the increased sight awareness.

EMF ghosting is independent of resolution and post-render quality, btw. I used to think it wasn't, but Mr.Mic proved me wrong on that one. While instinctively I find it to be BS, too, I don't know how it would affect balancing the game if it were removed. EMF has a max distance, btw, unlike MT.

Yes, super-hearing EAX is bullshit for both spies and mercs (you can semi-get away with no HB sensor/bullets because of it, allowing triple nades to be that much more viable). But a very under-used equipment item is alarm snares, and among those that do take them, few have figured out how to actually deploy them effectively. They negate EAX because they make random noises that someone with EAX will hear. I'm assuming that this project will fix the sound, though.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 03, 2007, 08:09:27 PM
EMF ghosting is independent of resolution and post-render quality, btw. I used to think it wasn't, but Mr.Mic proved me wrong on that one. While instinctively I find it to be BS, too, I don't know how it would affect balancing the game if it were removed. EMF has a max distance, btw, unlike MT.

I don't actually think post render does much to EMF, though I could be wrong.

High res doesn't actually create the EMF ghosts but rather allows you to see them at a much greater range than normal. While you can see them at low res, you've got to be very close or have your sniper scope zoomed in all the way (you could for instance, EMF ghost people coming out of the vent in museum by looking at the cafe ceiling at full zoom). But since the range is rather low and it requires a really keen eye, I didn't consider it that much of a problem. It only becomes a game problem when it's placed on a high resolution screen. Even still, the EMF ghost problem is nothing compared to the MT nightvision problem.

If we do one thing fixing MT, lets at least makes a fix that forces mercs to occasionally turn on their flashlights. Would it be possible to make a non-moving spy totally invisible on MT? Then we wouldnt' have to worry about post render or anything. 

Really one of the reasons I think merc resolution should be capped anyway. It's okay to let spies see at whatever res they want, since there's no profound effect on balance.

Oh, and while we're talking about annoying game bugs, lets fix silent prox mines too. Nothing more annoying than those spots you can place them that oddly give off virtually no sound at all.

Also, an improvement to netcode may well fix the host side aggro problem sufficiently. Though I have no idea if modifying the netcode will even be possible.

@ EMF ghosting

No, it doesn't.

The biggest effect on EMF ghosting, actually, is removing the framerate cap. It makes the little hexagons flash with a higher frequency, resulting in a clearer picture. The next biggest effect is monitor color quality.

@ Silent proxies:

There are none in CT. The way that the spy hears proxies (and other in-game events) is a function of the camera angle. If you are running in a direction and have the camera oriented in the wrong way, you won't hear the mine until it's too late.

Furthermore, soundcards can only play so many simultaneous sounds at once. If there are a lot of bullets being shot and grenades being thrown, you probably won't hear the mine.

Finally, there's the fire extinguisher bug in which your virtual "ears" stay at your last position, no matter where you move, until the fire extinguisher stops going off.

Quote from: Spekkio on March 04, 2007, 12:21:27 AM
@ Silent proxies:

There are none in CT. The way that the spy hears proxies (and other in-game events) is a function of the camera angle. If you are running in a direction and have the camera oriented in the wrong way, you won't hear the mine until it's too late.

I'm not quite sure, because I've had my camera angled in front of me (like I generally do) and sometimes have ran into mines that are either much more faint or silent. I'm not sure what exactly causes silent and quiet mines, but they do exist. I've encountered them on both the PC and xbox version. On PC, I wasn't using EAX so that may have had something to do with it.

In any case, fixing those mine hearing bugs should be another goal. I'm not really sure why camera angle should have anything to do with it anyway.

The mt vision should get blurry not only when the merc is moving, but when the merc it turning his head (and for a little time afterwards). This would prevent from looking in all directions if it doesn't detect movement in the back anymore.

spekkio pointed this out a long time back i think....MT actually inverts the shadows...so light areas are dark and dark areas appear normal. -hence the night vision

UMPS  did a beautiful hack on this...it really fixed it  and I think negates mt whoring.

DA also did a pretty good job of destroying emf....to much in my opinion but the idea of limiting the range of the vision will help.


Dont forget, the more we tone down mercs....the more we encourage aggro spies....which is a very big reason for not changing gameplay until a version 2.0

hm limiting the motions is bad lol if you are a good spy you can break a merc.. i guess lower the emf but not motion.

Quote from: goodkebab on April 15, 2007, 08:50:18 PM
spekkio pointed this out a long time back i think....MT actually inverts the shadows...so light areas are dark and dark areas appear normal. -hence the night vision

UMPS  did a beautiful hack on this...it really fixed it  and I think negates mt whoring.

Yeah. though I still honestly kind of like the DA MT fix a little bit better, mostly just because it fixes the uber 360 motion detection as well.

Quote
DA also did a pretty good job of destroying emf....to much in my opinion but the idea of limiting the range of the vision will help.

Yeah, DA went way too far with EMF. Aside from EMF ghosting problems, EMF isn't a vision that needs to be nerfed at all conceptually, as it's easy enough to avoid EMF. You just don't turn on any visions and don't pull out your gun. So EMF really doesn't need to be weakened aside from the unwanted side effect of sometimes being able to see the spy's ghost on EMF when he's not using any equipment.

Quote
Dont forget, the more we tone down mercs....the more we encourage aggro spies....which is a very big reason for not changing gameplay until a version 2.0

Well, not necessarily, there are certain things that we can change that won't directly affect aggro.

If anything, by making the game more stealthy, we discourage aggro because stealth works better. A great deal of people became aggroers because they couldn't sneak past mercs with all the stealth problems.

the best solution for stealthy spies are building stealthy maps.  A lot of people want to play stealth when they can.  Factory and Orph are great examples where stealth spies own.

Is it because stealthy spies own or slow mercs on big maps suck?

2nd point  :D

Quote from: goodkebab on April 17, 2007, 12:32:13 PM
the best solution for stealthy spies are building stealthy maps.  A lot of people want to play stealth when they can.  Factory and Orph are great examples where stealth spies own.

Well part of it, yes. Stealth needs to be viable and the map needs to allow that. You can't for instance have crap maps like warehouse where your only option is to aggro.

Mercs need to be forced to patrol, giving stealth spies a chance to sneak past.

On the other hand though bigger maps probably means you can weaken aggro somewhat, to further reinforce the stealthy style you're trying to promote. Because remember that aggro also improves a bit on big maps too, because it's much easier to isolate a single merc and aggro him to death. Doing that on aquarius isn't as big a deal because the other merc has about a 2-5 second response time if properly placed, so backup is close by. On factory it may well take you 5-10 seconds to get to help your partner. So if you intend on having big maps you probably should weaken aggro a bit. At the very least the merc should be able to get into a corner and establish a hold out position.

Hi, I'm new here...

In my opinion ammo for spies will probably cause that:

• The game become more like Double Agent's SvsS from PS2 that clone of improved Chaos Theory Versus.
• Spy can become hunter, but we all know that Spy should be rather hunted...

If you ever played SvS you know what I mean - even in Team Hacks and other it looks like DM...

Again...its all in the map design.  Choke points force spies to have confrontation.  Both Orph and Factory have quick escape routes and safe routes for spies to get to objectives, provided you are skilled enough in stealth.

DA really enforced this in their map design.  You do not need to make big maps and slow mercs, it is enough to have multiple routes to objectives and good escape routes.  To make maps feel big but allow mercs quick access through the map,  just make them more vertical  (elevators and jumping over railing)

Which is why Hospital and Clubhouse and Aquarius are so popular:
multiple stories with elevators or lot of connecting paths (via Tech for Mercs)

aqua is the worst case scenario; don't go over the top with quick access for the mercs...
club is very boring imo, but probably because i've played it too much.

hospital is teh pwnage bitches  ;D
on factory, camnet is a bit too strong, but nevertheless it's my favorite map besides orph  8)
every map designer should try to learn from this ones  ;)
but plz fewer spy-only zones like vents, and more shadows to hide. thx ;P

Quote from: Gawain on April 20, 2007, 03:34:03 PM
aqua is the worst case scenario; don't go over the top with quick access for the mercs...

Keep in mind that the slower mercs take to get somewhere, the weaker aggro needs to be. Otherwise the game just turns into a double team neck snap + hack situation.

Do you wanna tell me that you can play stealth on Aqua ??? rofllol
It's merc map number 2 directly after Warehouse ::)

yes i can play stealth on aqua. all you need is greek hacked and the stealth begins

Quote from: LiVe.To.Di3 on April 21, 2007, 04:15:29 PM
yes i can play stealth on aqua. all you need is greek hacked and the stealth begins

yeah, that's why one of the staple merc tactics on Aqua is having one guy perpetually camp greek. He can also cover pirates from the bridge too, leaving the other guy to guard tech.

You kind of just give up the office disk, because that one doesn't even matter much.

Greek is the worst objective to get first because it allows the mercs to only cover one side of an already small map. Good luck getting tank disk after that.

The best objectives to hit first:
1. Tank disk
2. Pirates
3. Office Disk
4. Tech Room (get this first and you lose your ability to pull the mercs away from greek/pirate)
5. Greek Room

The order in which you hit objectives matters much more in Aqua than most other maps.

I fully agree with spekkio. If you really wanna win on Aqua, you really have to consider that.
On the other hand going tech room first has it's advantages, too. The mercs will usually stop covering it and you get acces to the central room of the map which leads everywhere.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:56:52 PM
Greek is the worst objective to get first because it allows the mercs to only cover one side of an already small map. Good luck getting tank disk after that.

The best objectives to hit first:
1. Tank disk
2. Pirates
3. Office Disk
4. Tech Room (get this first and you lose your ability to pull the mercs away from greek/pirate)
5. Greek Room

The order in which you hit objectives matters much more in Aqua than most other maps.

I would disagree. Pirates is probably the easiest objective to take first, but unfortunately it also makes the mercs lives a bit easier since it's one less thing for them to defend and after hitting pirates it's difficult to actually go anywhere else other than greek, unless you egress back to the start point. Also a sniper from greek can easily head shot you from the bridge as you start to hack pirates, so if they expect you're going there, you're in trouble. Alternately, the guy in Tech can go up above and snipe from the railings in Pirate.

Getting the tank disk may sound like a great idea, but if the mercs have someone guarding tech and greek early, it's all but impossible. Basically the only way you're getting that is pure aggro.

Without greek, your progress through the map is painfully slow and it's rather easy for the mercs to figure out where you're going to strike from next, unless you waste a lot of time in misdirection. If your initial assault fails, you don't have any means to change targets as you would if the tech room was accessible.

avoiding headshots in pirates should be avoidable if you have proper teamplay (on aqua you should stay together with your mate most of the time), and if the mercs leave pirates, you can do coop to tech room from there so you are not isolated. goind for the tank disc only works with real good diversion, but often this option is underestimated i guess. fact is, if one merc is camping in greek/bridge and the other one in tech, you can't win aqua without knocking them out...

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 21, 2007, 08:54:31 PM

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:56:52 PM
Greek is the worst objective to get first because it allows the mercs to only cover one side of an already small map. Good luck getting tank disk after that.

The best objectives to hit first:
1. Tank disk
2. Pirates
3. Office Disk
4. Tech Room (get this first and you lose your ability to pull the mercs away from greek/pirate)
5. Greek Room

The order in which you hit objectives matters much more in Aqua than most other maps.

I would disagree. Pirates is probably the easiest objective to take first

He didn't say which objective is easiest, he said which objective should best be taken first in order to make the game winnable.

well i am sorry but me and my mate NEVER lose when we have greek. we dont care if we are versing noobs or pros we will win if we get greek first. maybe you guys cannot play like that but we can. 8)

QuoteGetting the tank disk may sound like a great idea, but if the mercs have someone guarding tech and greek early, it's all but impossible. Basically the only way you're getting that is pure aggro.

It's even more impossible when no merc is bothering with the Greek side of the map. If you get Greek first, one merc stands in the little corridor right in front of tank disk. The other merc stands in the other corridor leading from tech to pirate. From there, both can cover pirates, pinch tech, or cover the office disk with only moving a total of like 3 meters.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 01:25:25 AM

QuoteGetting the tank disk may sound like a great idea, but if the mercs have someone guarding tech and greek early, it's all but impossible. Basically the only way you're getting that is pure aggro.

It's even more impossible when no merc is bothering with the Greek side of the map. If you get Greek first, one merc stands in the little corridor right in front of tank disk. The other merc stands in the other corridor leading from tech to pirate. From there, both can cover pirates, pinch tech, or cover the office disk with only moving a total of like 3 meters.

Nobody is saying it's easy. Aqua is a merc map, there's no doubt about it. Still, there are a number of things you can do.

First of all, the office disk is no doubt completely unguarded, going for that forces the mercs to somewhat expand their defenses, and may leave the tank disk or the tech unguarded and bombable. The tech room is also a fairly decent spot to set up sticky cams as the mercs come through those corridors.

But still it ain't easy, no matter what order you get the objectives in. Regardless of order, against good mercs, you're going to have to go solid aggro at one point or another, because stealth just doesn't cut it. I tend to prefer having greek open because I can run around the level better.

you don't get it...
if the mercs are camping at the right spots spekkio mentioned, all you can get is the office disk (with great aggro teamwork). Good mercs won't leave their central position too far   ;)

Quote from: Gawain on April 22, 2007, 11:10:04 AM
you don't get it...
if the mercs are camping at the right spots spekkio mentioned, all you can get is the office disk (with great aggro teamwork). Good mercs won't leave their central position too far   ;)

That's true. The thing is that using Spekkio's strategies, the situation isn't much better. Going for the tank disk first? I mean great... how you going to do that? One merc is sitting in tech waiting for you to drop down, and the other is camping greek. Yeah, good luck getting the fish tank without any aggro.

Keep in mind that regardless of what order you get objectives mercs can always decide to just "give up" an objective. So the mercs can just execute spekkio's plan regardless of if you've captured greek or not. If his merc strategy is truly unbeatable then mercs will pretend greek doesn't exist and just sit in the two adjoining corridors like he wants them to, in which case it won't even matter what order you get the objectives.

that's the reason why i think hacking objectives to 99% is crap. a good merc will never ever cover this any more, and you waste time going back to finish the hacking...

Quote from: Gawain on April 22, 2007, 03:22:55 PM
that's the reason why i think hacking objectives to 99% is crap. a good merc will never ever cover this any more, and you waste time going back to finish the hacking...

It is crap, as are most hacking order plans. The fact that certain objectives exist doesn't mean that the mercs will protect them all.

One thing I actually like about DA is that the objectives stay constant so mercs can't simply give up objectives entirely as they can in CT.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 22, 2007, 04:12:30 PM
One thing I actually like about DA is that the objectives stay constant so mercs can't simply give up objectives entirely as they can in CT.

I dislike it. It takes out too much strategy.

Quote from: Gawain on April 22, 2007, 04:41:07 PM

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 22, 2007, 04:12:30 PM
One thing I actually like about DA is that the objectives stay constant so mercs can't simply give up objectives entirely as they can in CT.

I dislike it. It takes out too much strategy.

Well, it can be a bad thing in that it tends to make maps less interesting because spies can keep going back to their favorite hack points. It also may not even be implementable in CT due to the comparative hacking method, so I'm not really even saying we should do that in this game.

Still though, I like the idea of forcing the mercs to patrol an area as opposed to being able to camp one spot, which is fairly common in most of the smaller maps.

The hallmarks of a stealth spy are being able to hit objectives that aren't protected well and going to where the merc isn't watching. If there aren't enough objectives to do that, you really are just left with aggro as your only alternative. The best example is museum where you've got the disc and the two cafes. The two mercs can just patrol the cafe and your only way past them is straight aggro.

The best way to fix that may just be better map design, but I'm not sure.

it is better map design. factory and orph (except the attic) are the best examples how to design a great map. but for my taste, both got too much vents, and maybe camnet/security on factory is too prevalent + it's a sniper paradise (goodkebap reminded me of this last time we played).

QuoteKeep in mind that regardless of what order you get objectives mercs can always decide to just "give up" an objective. So the mercs can just execute spekkio's plan regardless of if you've captured greek or not. If his merc strategy is truly unbeatable then mercs will pretend greek doesn't exist and just sit in the two adjoining corridors like he wants them to, in which case it won't even matter what order you get the objectives.

Of course mercs could do this, but it's generally a bad strategy as it doesn't allow for any mistakes.

A part of what makes the coverage plan after greek so powerful (or any consolidated coverage for that matter on any map) is that it's likely the spies are down a couple lives after getting it, along with a lot of time. When the spies have to rush, they make mistakes. If the mercs just ignore greek, the spies will have 9 min and 8 lives to get the next two objectives.

I see mercs "give up" a floor in Club House all the time if you get a quick 2nd floor objective. It's not a very good strategy because even though it's tough to get that final obj on the first floor, having 7 or 8 lives and over 8 minutes makes it very doable. One neck and that's the ballgame. There's also the highly underrated electric hack.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 06:46:59 PM
Of course mercs could do this, but it's generally a bad strategy as it doesn't allow for any mistakes.

A part of what makes the coverage plan after greek so powerful (or any consolidated coverage for that matter on any map) is that it's likely the spies are down a couple lives after getting it, along with a lot of time. When the spies have to rush, they make mistakes. If the mercs just ignore greek, the spies will have 9 min and 8 lives to get the next two objectives.

I see mercs "give up" a floor in Club House all the time if you get a quick 2nd floor objective. It's not a very good strategy because even though it's tough to get that final obj on the first floor, having 7 or 8 lives and over 8 minutes makes it very doable. One neck and that's the ballgame. There's also the highly underrated electric hack.

Depends on the team you're playing against. If you're against an aggro team, giving up objectives is almost always a bad idea. If you're playing against stealth spies, you can totally hose them because you force them into aggro mode to win.

As a spy that relies primarily on stealth, I can say that tactics like this tended to really screw me over.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 06:46:59 PM
There's also the highly underrated electric hack.

The only use i can think of is, that you can creep in the ceiling and enter lunch/tea in a silent way. Plz explain what you mean ;)

On club, pure stealth doesn't work simply because of the 2 mercs on 3 objectives laming. You have always to hack-and-run garden on both floors to get a chance for 4 objectives.

Electric hack = open doors into jacuzzi steam.

Does multiple things:

1. The mercs don't have enough mines and traps to cover all the entrances
2. Quick and easy access between all 3 rooms.
3. Two mercs now have to split into covering 3 rooms with easy entrances. While this does require a lot of running around and diving on the spy's part, it gives you the best chance to win because it completely opens up the first floor.

An alternate strategy is that you coop a spy into tea, have him go down the back pipe. The other spy hides under the floor waiting for the spy in the back to get into position. Once the spy in position shoots a security out, the spy under the floor pops up and shocks the merc in the hallway, delaying him by 4 seconds. When the shock wears off, the spy inside runs and hides before the merc gets in. If the doors are hacked as above, the spy under the floor can run into the other back room. Of course the second merc will probably be in pursuit so that's where you have to use the spy's mobility to stay ahead.

An alternate strategy is you just try to aggro the mercs.

There are a ton of things you can do, you just gotta think of them.

CT has merc maps, and spy maps....what makes the game interesting is the variety which leaves something for everyone.   There are aggro maps, and stealth maps...maps where spies really need to double team objectives, and others where splitting up is even better.

So just keep that in mind.   I for one, dont want to change anything....except for new maps.

I agree with that.

doors make a useful noise while opening, and sometimes they delay the merc. but maybe i should try this out ;)

i think we should fix the game so that it is the way it was meant to be played. just remember its primarily a console game: low resolution (=>short emf range, camo hard to detect on higher ranges), fps-cap (=>hardly emf ghosting), no eax (=>not hearing everything on the whole map), slower turn rate, worse aiming, no eax, ...

if you consider this, the game should be better balanced as it is right now (mercs win most of the time), and the spies get stealth as a viable option.

I think the sides are mostly balanced and it boils down to map layout. I'm certainly not for limiting framerate or resolution. Club House is arguably the #1 balanced map in the game.

As for the doors opening/closing: that's what you have spy bullets/HB sensor/a partner to warn you for. Besides, you can't get shot from the doorway in Jacuzzi so it's not like you won't see the merc coming.

Quote from: Gawain on April 22, 2007, 09:56:38 PM

i think we should fix the game so that it is the way it was meant to be played. just remember its primarily a console game: low resolution (=>short emf range, camo hard to detect on higher ranges), fps-cap (=>hardly emf ghosting), no eax (=>not hearing everything on the whole map), slower turn rate, worse aiming, no eax, ...

if you consider this, the game should be better balanced as it is right now (mercs win most of the time), and the spies get stealth as a viable option.

Worse aiming can't be done. A mouse is by its nature far more precise than a console controller.

As far as slow turning rate, the xbox version had a quick-turn function that would make the merc do a fast 180, so I think fast merc turning to address threats was intended. The only real advantage the PC version has is that the merc can look around the level much faster. About all we can do to address that is possibly introduce a motion blur or something if you turn around too fast.

FPS cap would be a bad idea. Smoother gameplay is always a good thing, and hopefully we can find a way around the EMF ghosting that doesn't involve making the game choppy.

As far as low resolution goes, I think it actually might improve the game. Camo is notoriously better on xbox than it is on PC and resolution is a big cause of that. Keep in mind that any change that lets either side see better is inevitably a balance shift in favor of the mercs and makes stealth more difficult. I know many people like to show off their 1337 new video card and run the game at 1600x1200 resolution (or god knows how high UT will let you put it), but for a game that's so dependent on vision and enemy detection as a balance mechanism. I think having a fixed resolution would be the best way to balance things. 

As far as EAX goes... get rid of that junk. It was BS to begin with and did nothing good for the game at all.

The game is going to be on a different engine so all the stuff you guys are worrying about will likely not even be an issue.

invisible, you don't get me. i just wanna say, copy the gameplay of the xbox version, and not of the pc version ;)
and hopefully, we won't encounter these problems with a new engine. a fixed resolution would be an easy solution, but not the best one imo.