I think we should have some multiplayer maps that play a little like co-op missions, but in a SvM environment. Take for example Lighthouse in Single Player on CT, on this map Sam keeps moving forward to his objectives and meets NPC's along the way, and he has a few options. He can kill them, knock them out, or use tactical stealth so that he doesn't cross their path. Imagine mercs in these maps in the same situation as the NPC's. They would have limited access to gadgets at first - only things like torches to pick up as a light source, and a gun or two to make sure the spies don't cross their path, but as the spies do progress through the map, the mercs equipment starts to become a little more advanced, a bit more - end of Bathhouse advanced.
Edited in after comment by Frvge:
The stages don't have to be too limited in terms of space, but the spies have to progress with their weaknesses too. The spies advantage is not really their gadgets, but more the environment at their disposal. The less equipment the mercs have to use against the spies, the less environment the spies have to use against the mercs. Then as the stages progress mercs get more equipment, but the spies have more environment to use against them. This would make the way the spies use their environment more interesting, and considering the equipment available for the mercs and the environment at the spies disposal become more advanced as the stages progress, this interest would continue to exist.
Continuation of original post:
Lets say for example you disable the mercs and the area is clear, you move on to the next stage and the mercs can spectate you both as you make your way there, or if the spies sneak their way past the mercs they will respawn at the next area, but as the spies are already there they have seamlessly made their way into the next stage.
This is a completely new mode, which at the moment I haven't put much thought into at all, it was a spur of the moment thing after a long night of fun ;D. Although, I would like to hear your thoughts, would you find this an interesting take as an alternative to standard SvM, or do you think it would start to become a little samey just like normal co-op game, due to the mission like structure. I personally don't think so, since the A.I would become G.I, Genuine Intelligence. This would mean the oppositions tactics really would change every time, and I think it would be very interesting, thoughts?
Interesting idea!
So basically stage-maps with a limited amount of space the Mercs can use to patrol.
Well it's not really as basic as that is it, but I see what your getting at ;D.
The stages don't have to be too limited in terms of space, but the spies have to progress with their weaknesses too. The spies advantage is not really their gadgets, but more the environment at their disposal. The less equipment the mercs have to use against the spies, the less environment the spies have to use against the mercs. Then as the stages progress mercs get more equipment, but the spies have more environment to use against them. This would make the way the spies use their environment more interesting, and considering the equipment available for the mercs and the environment at the spies disposal become more advanced as the stages progress, this interest would continue to exist.
Give spies a silenced pistol and you have an excellent game mode. Regular gadgets, ss and all, plus a silenced pistol w/ OCP thing from Coop mode = awesome
I'm not too sure if this would work as the guards aren't expecting a high trained spy to infiltrate their grounds. Wouldn't have the edge of suprise like you have in the SP and Co-op modes.
That's a good point, although in SvM you have exactly that situation, but people continue to come back for more, why is that? It's because the experience changes every time, it has a lot of replay value and is a very fun concept to play, and when you have progression and a different option to standard SvM, I don't see why that would change.
That was what I was getting at Skull :P.
Yes, perhaps it is. But don't forget, that in SvM, the Mercs are hired to protect the equipment against attacks, may it be terrorists, James Bond or mister Spy. So the whole situation is based around that.
While in Coop, you are infiltrating a ficility, evil genuis hideout or just your boss his office, were you are suppose to go in, get the stuff, go out, all unnoticed. I've never ever played a SvM match that I never got notice of a spy being there.
Also, players WILL act differently, they will hunt down the spy instead of patrolling a corridor 100 times on one evening. It's hard to find people to role-play with you, as yes, it will be role-playing. Mercs will take on the role of guard. They will have to behave like a guard or else some sort of coop mode will not work.
If you do find the people to play such match with, it will be a hell of a great experience.
Its a cool idea, but it'd take ages to make. I guess new maps would have to be made for it aswell. Although i like the idea, i think the chances of it being put in are very slim, due to the work-load for it (new maps). Also, would this be like a 10 Merc, Vs 1 spy type thing, like in single player. If so i can see people waiting hours for there spy rounds.
TBH i think disk hunt could be tweaked, everybody has forgotten about it, but i still think it's a good concept. However, personally i think specific disk hunt maps need to be made with LOTS of different techniques, ways, and passages to get to the disk and extraction point.
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 07, 2008, 08:27:33 PM
Its a cool idea, but it'd take ages to make. I guess new maps would have to be made for it aswell. Although i like the idea, i think the chances of it being put in are very slim, due to the work-load for it (new maps). Also, would this be like a 10 Merc, Vs 1 spy type thing, like in single player. If so i can see people waiting hours for there spy rounds.
TBH i think disk hunt could be tweaked, everybody has forgotten about it, but i still think it's a good concept. However, personally i think specific disk hunt maps need to be made with LOTS of different techniques, ways, and passages to get to the disk and extraction point.
No, diskhunt is horrible, however , extraction from pandora with the tubes was the best idea ever. because you had to stay alive to bring it to your spawn ,
warehouse was a rush on that mode ,esp in the 3rd sector.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on July 07, 2008, 10:31:21 PM
No, diskhunt is horrible, however , extraction from pandora with the tubes was the best idea ever. because you had to stay alive to bring it to your spawn
oO
Dwarf man, my point isn't to make mercs act like patrol bots, I want it to be like the SvM experience where mercs are checking everywhere, not just patrolling for example 'Room that spy must cross' or 'Bridge', hence my point about it not just being A.I, rather G.I - Genuine Intelligence. Maps would obviously have to allow the mercs to behave like this, unlike in normal SP maps, I was just using Lighthouse as an example of showing how the missions within that game could work.
Rambo, I imagined the gamemode with 2v2 in mind, hence the stages; this means that it can be played by 4 players and still have the mercs be able to cover all bases. Also unlike SP these maps would have to have a lot more routes that the spies and mercenaries can take, this means that although the mercs can cover all points, they can't just camp each 'exit' that the spies have to cross, which again adds a lot of depth.
I like the idea of tweaking Disk Hunt too, personally I enjoy it a lot on the rare occasion I get to play it, it really tests your skill at stealth versus a good team. I also like extraction, like Agent said that was a fucking brilliant mode :P. In fact that's a really good point, did any of you enjoy separate modes more - Neutralisation, Sabotage, and Extraction, like it was in PT? I think I actually did you know, what do you think?
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 07, 2008, 10:49:15 PM
Rambo, I imagined the gamemode with 2v2 in mind, hence the stages;
i didn't even ask anything oO
u should make a list with the exact differences to normal story mode for clarification, because atm it sounds quite similar.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 07, 2008, 10:49:15 PM
I like the idea of tweaking Disk Hunt too, personally I enjoy it a lot on the rare occasion I get to play it, it really tests your skill at stealth versus a good team. I also like extraction, like Agent said that was a fucking brilliant mode :P.
disk hunt and stealth? i really hope ur kidding me XD
just for clarifation: extraction is like disk hunt with the only drop-off zone at spy spawn?
The differences are that as objectives are taken, more stages are opened up, and mercs have deadlier equipment. That's the main difference, right? We could brainstorm about this all day and it could become something really great.
More stages open, deadlier equipment. What kind of equipment are we talking about here? Nuclear bombs, EMP cannons?
I've never played PT so I have no clue what the game modes are. But extraction sounds nice. Would there be 3 objectives to capture? Or just one tube in the back of the ficility?
And to Stone:
Coop is stealth. What the heck is fun about making a bigger version of SvM, call it Coop. Let the mercs run around like mad chicken looking for corn (spies)? The whole stealth goes away. Unless you only equip the mercs with AK-47s and sigarets.
Quote from: Rambo on July 07, 2008, 11:13:31 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 07, 2008, 10:49:15 PM
Rambo, I imagined the gamemode with 2v2 in mind, hence the stages;
i didn't even ask anything oO
u should make a list with the exact differences to normal story mode for clarification, because atm it sounds quite similar.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 07, 2008, 10:49:15 PM
I like the idea of tweaking Disk Hunt too, personally I enjoy it a lot on the rare occasion I get to play it, it really tests your skill at stealth versus a good team. I also like extraction, like Agent said that was a fucking brilliant mode :P.
disk hunt and stealth? i really hope ur kidding me XD
just for clarifation: extraction is like disk hunt with the only drop-off zone at spy spawn?
Kind of like DA, but you just grab and run.
Quote from: Wh1t3_Dw4rF on July 07, 2008, 11:32:46 PM
More stages open, deadlier equipment. What kind of equipment are we talking about here? Nuclear bombs, EMP cannons?
I've never played PT so I have no clue what the game modes are. But extraction sounds nice. Would there be 3 objectives to capture? Or just one tube in the back of the ficility?
And to Stone:
Coop is stealth. What the heck is fun about making a bigger version of SvM, call it Coop. Let the mercs run around like mad chicken looking for corn (spies)? The whole stealth goes away. Unless you only equip the mercs with AK-47s and sigarets.
Let's say they start out with, a rifle, a torchlight, and a flare. The next stage they get a selection of 2 gadgets and their weapons of choice, plus the stage is filled with laser detectors. The next stage they get 4 gadgets, and there are plenty of cameras and lasers. The next stage they recieve all gadgets in the game (lol, just brainstorming), their visions, incendiary ammo (meaning their ammo explodes on impact into a small firey blast, like Crysis, wonder what that would be like). The stage after that, assuming there are 5 stages, the mercs recieve night vision (with a 1 min battery), when spies are seen in a camera or if they trip a laser all lights turn on and their position is marked on the merc's radar for 1 min, and they still have all the goodies they got in the stages before that of course. This makes it hard for spies and makes it necessary for them to use physical cover at all times.
That goes for all stages, if you have something in the past stage, you have it in the present stage.
Haha this could be fun although a bit too much work. Maybe it could be an add on later on. But it would only be playable on maps that could support a game mode like this. And there does not have to be 5 sections, 3 would probably be better.
Keep in mind spies have a pistol and all gadgets from the start. Mercs have 3 lives each, spies also have 3 lives.
Exploding ammo?
I can see it already, Merc picking up a HMG and just goes off spraying everything as the explosion will kill any lurking spies.
But anyway, what would the spies get? Merc seems to have a very big advantage. If spies would only have their shocker to protect themselfs it would be kinda gay.
Look at the last sentence of my previous post. The incendiary ammo explosion is not big, think fire cracker ammo.
But again, what kind of weapons would the spies get. Real ammo? Equipt with silenced pistol, maybe Echelon like rifle? Sticky Cams with either sleeping gas or choking gas? survival knife? I think im fine with anything except if the spies would still be equipt with gay gadgets.
Do you have xfire?
I'm saying no to gadgets for the Spies :D Makes it real stealthy in this game mode. Maybe one or two recon ones, but that's it. I'm not sure about special visions.
No gadgets? That means spies will be dead on sight, so they will be caution. Which will slow down the game. Shouldn't be that bad, as long as the merc team doesn't have placeable defences, only stationary that the spies can hack, disable.
Though, i'm still not confinced it would work.
so far, the only new idea is that we take a sector-based map and give more gadgets as the game progresses. u guys should stop spamming ur fancy blahblahblah, it's really nothing special so far.
Perhaps it makes only sence as blablabla to you but I'm just thinking of possible ways that could harm a coop mode. I in fact would love a coop mode but just afraid that it will fail as much as the SC:CT coop mode.
Now instead of going around preach your annoyances, come up with some good ideas too.
get a brain, seriously.
Wait, so can someone clarify, preferably in bullet points, what the difference is between extraction & disk hunt?
Atleast this will help us have a reasonable debate.
"Keep in mind spies have a pistol and all gadgets from the start. Mercs have 3 lives each, spies also have 3 lives."
What so spies can kill the merc, with there gun?! Whats wrong with the standard SS, and maybe some new gadgets for this gamemode?
Another idea, what if spies had no gadgets, but replaced with some cool moves that could KO the merc, or possibly even kill (inverted neckbreak anyone) the "tom nage" in co-op etc etc?
Quote from: FR33M4N on July 08, 2008, 03:46:44 PM
Wait, so can someone clarify, preferably in bullet points, what the difference is between extraction & disk hunt?
Atleast this will help us have a reasonable debate.
Simple, disk hunt, you search for an amount of disks. If you die in the process the disks will drop on the ground. If a mercs picks them up, they will go back to their original spot.
Extraction is like getting a tube from a box, with the tube you have to get to the spawn spot of the spy to drop it off.
Similiar like the disk you steal in story mode but the safe case to return them in is at the spawn point and not somewhere unlogically placed on the map.
this whole thread is a joke as long as stonecoldkilla doesn't make a list with all the differences.
There is no fucking point in listing the differences it has with CT co-op mode because those differences aren't what makes the mode fun, it's what the mode itself is - and I've already said that, many times. Why should I cater for people who don't bother to read, I'm not typing up what I've said in the first post because people are too lazy to read.
The spies keep a certain gadget set as the stages progress, but their environment becomes more complicated, however - the amount of equipment mercs have at their disposal increases, this makes things more complex without de-balancing either side, see how the progression plays towards the advantages of each side? There should be only a few routes through each stage, but enough to make it not a straightforward hit for mercs to accomplish - so it actually is stealth dwarf, not the 'Let the mercs run around like mad chicken looking for corn (spies)?' situation you describe.
Papa, I was thinking like 6 sections :P. But thank god for people who can read like you, you actually caught onto the idea :P.
So it will be kinda like the maps: Missile, Orphanage, Warehouse, Station?
No because all they do is open new sections within the map. It doesn't actually effect your play style in any substantial way, nor does the environmental complexity change in any substantial way. The actual way you would get into the new stages though, yes.
Yeah that was what I meant. The stages in the maps.
stonecoldkilla, the only new thing about your concept is giving more eq for every stage.
u should really make a list with all the differences to ct versus and to ct coop and exactly explain your idea. there are already station-based maps in ct, even moving spawn points to the front exist in ct (orph). what kind of objectives do you wanna see accomplished? does every map have a progressing story? etc
The thing that Stone is talking about is the Station concept (zones). Just with a few tweaks.
But way better. I love it.
It's not just a 'few tweaks' nor is it just 'more gadgets', is there a filter on firefox to block the mentally challenged? CANT ANYONE FUCKING READ? Thanks Frvge by the way to get that from a member of the team rocks :P.
My advice is to read the first post to anyone who wants to reply to this, because I have trouble with idiots who say 'All you have is extra gadgets' or 'Wow this is like station', and I have trouble with people asking me to make comparisons between modes. There is no point whatsoever in doing so because you should just explain what YOUR mode is, and I have done.
Quote from: Rambo on July 08, 2008, 03:16:43 PM
get a brain, seriously.
so after ur edit there are 2 properties of your idea in the op:
-mercs start with no/few eq and get more as the game progresses through it's map stages
-environment of each stage gets bigger to compensate for that
Quote from: Wh1t3_Dw4rF on July 08, 2008, 11:31:17 AM
But again, what kind of weapons would the spies get. Real ammo? Equipt with silenced pistol, maybe Echelon like rifle? Sticky Cams with either sleeping gas or choking gas? survival knife? I think im fine with anything except if the spies would still be equipt with gay gadgets.
Do you have xfire?
In that post I said spies would get pistols. -_-
EDIT: I know MGS is the devil, to probably most of you guys, but I like that series a lot. It's a different kind of stealth. SOME ideas could be worth bringing over here, lol cardboard box would be awesome. But think of the Mk22 pistol with a sleeping round. Meaning you shoot them with your pistol and they fall asleep. It could be a weapon for spies that really helps with the stealth and really could add to the gameplay for this mode.
Hmm...
A interesting idea. I can just imagine it now.
Spies approaching a facility they have to infiltrate but they have get past the gate area first guarded by Mercs and passive security. At this stage all items/gadgets are usable, but as soon as the Spies get inside the facility everything changes. The Spies must disable the security on one of the gates to get inside but that activates internal security measures. Due to the nature of the facility there is now heavy EM interference within the building that jams or makes some of the Merc/Spy gear unusable. The Mercs weren't inform of this security measure so their gear is not properly shielded from the EM interference/jamming. At this point Spies must make good use of what gear they have left that is not being affected by the jamming and of course their stealth and acrobatic skill, while Mercs must now be on full alert checking corners, ceilings and vents and focusing on their senses of sight and hearing to spot the intruders. Mercs will be relying heavily on their senses, torchlight, close quarter combat training and flares to spot and stop the Spies.
At this point the Spies must try to turn off the cause of the EM interference if they want to use their devices to hack pass the vault/door holding to get a hold of their objective. When the interference has been neutralized they are free fully use their gear again to advance toward the last objective however since the jamming is down, passive security systems are back online so Spies must take extra care when approaching the target. Mercs now can fully utilize the internal security system to track/deter the intruders from trying to get at the last objective.
Quote from: Wandering_Youth on July 09, 2008, 03:34:48 AM
Hmm...
A interesting idea. I can just imagine it now.
Spies approaching a facility they have to infiltrate but they have get past the gate area first guarded by Mercs and passive security. At this stage all items/gadgets are usable, but as soon as the Spies get inside the facility everything changes. The Spies must disable the security on one of the gates to get inside but that activates internal security measures. Due to the nature of the facility there is now heavy EM interference within the building that jams or makes some of the Merc/Spy gear unusable. The Mercs weren't inform of this security measure so their gear is not properly shielded from the EM interference/jamming. At this point Spies must make good use of what gear they have left that is not being affected by the jamming and of course their stealth and acrobatic skill, while Mercs must now be on full alert checking corners, ceilings and vents and focusing on their senses of sight and hearing to spot the intruders. Mercs will be relying heavily on their senses, torchlight, close quarter combat training and flares to spot and stop the Spies.
At this point the Spies must try to turn off the cause of the EM interference if they want to use their devices to hack pass the vault/door holding to get a hold of their objective. When the interference has been neutralized they are free fully use their gear again to advance toward the last objective however since the jamming is down, passive security systems are back online so Spies must take extra care when approaching the target. Mercs now can fully utilize the internal security system to track/deter the intruders from trying to get at the last objective.
Nice example, sounds neat-o.
Is this your idea of metal gear solid stealth?
1.
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/viewer.php?id=297383&key=LeStIeXzhtOzZxbStiN2Y2NjIxNmY3QjE4MDIrM19xMWI4NTE7QjA1QlYxOzJWMTJiMDI4ZjMrVnFfOTAxbTk5NDM1MzM1Nw%3D%3D
2.
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/viewer.php?id=426712&key=NpYhBfXzVtOzlxbStiMWY0NjExN2YxQjE5MzIrNV9xNGIzNTE7QjA1QlYxOzJWMTJiNzI5ZjArVnFfOTAxbTk5NzkzNzQzNA%3D%3D
I love those.
mgs flashes: pure awesomeness ;D
Quote from: Rambo on July 08, 2008, 10:59:04 PM
so after ur edit there are 2 properties of your idea in the op:
-mercs start with no/few eq and get more as the game progresses through it's map stages
-environment of each stage gets bigger to compensate for that
To add complexity too, yes. But what you fail to realise is I made that edit after the second post... check my post which I responded to Frvge with, the fact you didn't notice makes that comment a huge fail. There isn't just two ideas there by the way, in comparison to another mode there still isn't, but again there's no point in making those comparisons... god.
yes, there is. if you wanna introduce a new gamemode, there must be some differences to standart story mode. don't try to argue with me about when i saw ur edit, you know that i'm right that you didn't explain the properties of your new mode suggestion properly. just for clarification: i'm not against new modes, but in order to discuss a new mode, one should know what it'll be like.
It'll probably have more of a sequential story feeling than the CT-stage-maps, which were more like random obstacles. The story can even be made parallel with split-ups for the necessary new-ness.
that's a good point: make the ps maps have more of a story, particularily the objectives should make more sense.
Sense, like blowing pop corn machines and flushing movies down in the toilet. :-p
My Idea of this new game mode is basically like this. It is played on a 3-5 section map like warehouse or station. Most maps can be made or modified to be like that. When one of the first stage's objectives are taken, the next stage opens up. The merc has a armory point that he can go to to obtain new gadgets, weapons, and ammo.
As the stages are taken, the merc's arsenal becomes more deadly, the merc gains special abilities like a limited time night vision.
As the stages are taken, the spies arsenal stays the same: 5 gadgets of choice, all abilities, the sticky shocker, a sleeping pistol like that found in MGS, and all visions.
As the stages are taken, security is bumped up (more lasers, more cameras, alarms, etc...)
So, in the beginning it's relatively easy for spies, and in the end, it's relatively hard for spies. It would be a unique balancing act that I don't think has been seen in a game, ever. It promises that there will always be a challenge for any person within the game.
This could be great.
Quote from: Kurbutti on July 09, 2008, 07:37:31 PM
Sense, like blowing pop corn machines and flushing movies down in the toilet. :-p
haha. We got www.pwnt.com. Maybeh teh p0pc0rn mashin3 is nt rliiii a p0pc0rn mashine, n da toilet is nt a toielt!!!!!!!!! u neva no. go by urrrrrr instinCtZZZZZZ.
Quote from: Kurbutti on July 09, 2008, 07:37:31 PM
Sense, like blowing pop corn machines and flushing movies down in the toilet. :-p
well let's say the objective is to sabotage the evil cinema69 company *g*
and what is the coolest (and easiest) thing to blow up in a cinema? the corn supplies of course ^^
and who among us never had the feeling to flush down a bad movie in the toilet or load up a good one to the internets?
Would you like to see such humor in PS?
why not XD
as long as the athmosphere is thick :D
btw, is there a story for lakehouse, why to take those obectives n stuff?
Quote from: Rambo on July 10, 2008, 05:05:44 PM
Quote from: Kurbutti on July 09, 2008, 07:37:31 PM
Sense, like blowing pop corn machines and flushing movies down in the toilet. :-p
well let's say the objective is to sabotage the evil cinema69 company *g*
and what is the coolest (and easiest) thing to blow up in a cinema? the corn supplies of course ^^
and who among us never had the feeling to flush down a bad movie in the toilet or load up a good one to the internets?
My idea was to play a shitty movie like Gigli in one of the theaters, then the spies have to sabotage the projection room.
Quote from: frvge on July 10, 2008, 05:41:44 PM
Would you like to see such humor in PS?
Well we have to hack laptops in random places in CT, so whats wrong with blowing up a popcorn machine? ;D , and if the movie is shit, treat it like shit, flush that floater down the toilet :P.
Quote from: Rambo on July 09, 2008, 07:07:54 PM
yes, there is. if you wanna introduce a new gamemode, there must be some differences to standart story mode. don't try to argue with me about when i saw ur edit, you know that i'm right that you didn't explain the properties of your new mode suggestion properly. just for clarification: i'm not against new modes, but in order to discuss a new mode, one should know what it'll be like.
You really are my favourite moron - lets ask Frvge, did I not respond to you with exactly what I put in the first post? I added my response to the first post straight after, stop being such a stuck up fag Rambo - seriously. I've said what it's like, there is obviously differences to standard story mode but I don't have to explain them, I think you have to be very stupid to not see how they are two different extremes, like I said it's similar to Coop, only with a head to head environment.
To everyone who thinks they have an idea on what I mean, a better idea would be to copy and paste the first post, instead of changing it completely ;).
you're the retard...
you're obviously inable to make a list with the exact properties of your mode suggestion. by list i mean not tons of blahblah with no clear substance but a fucking list with distinct points.
His points are implied. I can see them.
so plz post them.
A more logically, semi-story-driven SvM.
Less freedom for moving around
increasing difficulty
Basically you can have it like this:
break through the outer defense in the forest
infiltrate some mansion
infiltrate high-security wing by using 2 retinal scanners at the same time, or slowly overloading some circuits somewhere else.
Splitup:
<--- hack the vault on the first floor
<--- clear the path to the server room in the basement
meet up and upload the stolen data from the vault in the serverroom.
Each stage will take approx 5-8 minutes.
Mercs can oversee the courtyard from the mansion (bit like Orph) or walk in a fenced-off area.
After Spies got in, Mercs get teleported to the inside where they get like 20 secs to put up... let's say 1 mine and one detector each. They can choose to upgrade weapon or w/e (maybe a bit RPG? Making this up on the spot). Then they guard the scanners/circuit. (have to split up).
In the next stage, the Mercs have access to some fast Merc-only elevator, so they have an advantage with speed.
In the final stage, the Mercs are 100% armed, inner static defense are in high-alert, automatic turrets etc. The Mercs try to cut-off the Spies. Spies can try to outmanouver the Merc by speed, or by sneaking.
The pace of the game will be like Coop. Not like SvM. So hall-ways are long. ;)
Dude. That would be awesome. When you first started describing it I immediately thought Bank from CT single player. Just put 8 mercs on 1 team, give them all a choice of 1 gadget + rifle, and put them in a distinct area where they have to patrol. Unless the alarm is set then all mercs are free to roam. Just spitballing.
frvge, that's not a list, that's an example ::)
Yeah, but it still shows the differences.
One thing lads, some poor little merc will have to wait AGES for his spy round?!
Just like my first post does Rambo :). You really are my favourite moron.
Great news, Frvge hit the nail on the head! Someone with half a brain! Although one thing you say is wrong, you say there is 'Less freedom for moving around' so again, I'll direct you to the first post where I said this, 'As the stages progress mercs get more equipment, but the spies have more environment to use against them. This would make the way the spies use their environment more interesting, and considering the equipment available for the mercs and the environment at the spies disposal become more advanced as the stages progress, this interest would continue to exist.'
FR33M4N, you make it seem like being a merc is a bad thing by saying that, the spies do have limited lives so if they are owning it's not really going to last very long, but what's so wrong with being a 'poor little merc', explain. Now we clarified these things, I want to direct a question to the team. Once you have all finished working on the main SvM mode, would a project for making this mode ever become a possibility? But to deviate again I do love a good bit of drama so lets get back to you Rambo.
Quote from: Rambo on July 11, 2008, 03:04:29 PM
you're the retard...
you're obviously inable to make a list with the exact properties of your mode suggestion. by list i mean not tons of blahblah with no clear substance but a fucking list with distinct points.
I'm the retard, explain? Next time you call ME a retard make sure what you're saying makes grammatical sense. Did you ever think (that's probably a bad question) that maybe a list could actually be the WORST possible way of EXPLAINING your ideas? If I made a list I'd be asked to explain in detail what I actually meant by my points, but I avoided all that and made it very easy to understand with detailed explanations, yet people on Project Stealth are an expception to this rule, and suddenly have a mental block when they don't have their information organised into a list, unbelievable.
I'll have you know though I can organise a list - I don't want you to loose sleep at night ;). Maybe a few things to think about are first of all to get your facts rights, stop criticising something when you can't even be bothered to read the first post about it, and flying statements around like 'tons of blahblah with no clear substance' and 'fucking list with distinct points' which don't make any sense does NOT make you clever, it makes you look like the opposite.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 12, 2008, 12:17:45 AM
Just like my first post does Rambo :). You really are my favourite moron.
Great news, Frvge hit the nail on the head! Someone with half a brain! Although one thing you say is wrong, you say there is 'Less freedom for moving around' so again, I'll direct you to the first post where I said this, 'As the stages progress mercs get more equipment, but the spies have more environment to use against them. This would make the way the spies use their environment more interesting, and considering the equipment available for the mercs and the environment at the spies disposal become more advanced as the stages progress, this interest would continue to exist.'
FR33M4N, you make it seem like being a merc is a bad thing by saying that, the spies do have limited lives so if they are owning it's not really going to last very long, but what's so wrong with being a 'poor little merc', explain. Now we clarified these things, I want to direct a question to the team. Once you have all finished working on the main SvM mode, would a project for making this mode ever become a possibility? But to deviate again I do love a good bit of drama so lets get back to you Rambo.
Quote from: Rambo on July 11, 2008, 03:04:29 PM
you're the retard...
you're obviously inable to make a list with the exact properties of your mode suggestion. by list i mean not tons of blahblah with no clear substance but a fucking list with distinct points.
I'm the retard, explain? Next time you call ME a retard make sure what you're saying makes grammatical sense. Did you ever think (that's probably a bad question) that maybe a list could actually be the WORST possible way of EXPLAINING your ideas? If I made a list I'd be asked to explain in detail what I actually meant by my points, but I avoided all that and made it very easy to understand with detailed explanations, yet people on Project Stealth are an expception to this rule, and suddenly have a mental block when they don't have their information organised into a list, unbelievable.
I'll have you know though I can organise a list - I don't want you to loose sleep at night ;). Maybe one thing to think about Rambo is first of all to get your facts rights, stop criticising something when you can't even be bothered to read the first post, and flying statements around like 'tons of blahblah with no clear substance' and 'fucking list with distinct points' which don't make any sense does NOT make you clever, it makes you look the opposite.
Nothing wrong with being merc, but ill put it like this, do you get pissed when uve finished ur merc round and the spy host quits server so you get no rev? Yes. Do you want to be merc for an hour waiting for your spy round. No. Other than that i think its awesome.
I get pissed when a host quits after I've just played spy, it's about a balanced experienced and if you don't have an experience that's fun both ways then what's the point. The way I see it you should be able to have the same amount of fun playing as mercs for an hour as you can experience with playing as a spy. But yes, at the very moment with CT that is not the case - but that's what I think is going to change.
The Stonecoldkilla version might differ slightly from my version.
In my version, Spies do not have a weapon nor gadgets nor visions and 3 lives for all stages combined.
Mercs start with a sniper for the long-range first defense, like orph, and then gradually get more and more.
Mercs sometimes operate from positions that Spies can not reach, like sniping spots, security centers etc.
Spies on the other hand can use vents. Basically Spies get sneaky routes and Mercs get overview of the larger areas. Think like Upper Pirate Room in Aquarius in CT.
Waiting for the Spy round is not the case. You either play as Merc, or as Spy. Since a game will be around 30 minutes... ;). Heck, you can have mandatory side-quests to make it easier/harder for Spies and/or Mercs.
Think like short-cirtcuiting security as Spy to bypass a laser grid, or 'upgrading' automated turrets by 'hacking' them as Merc.
It'll be more like a real Coop mode than SvM.
The 'main' SvM is only planned for now. It is possible to make the Coop, as its basically just an extension, but I do not think we have time for it.
Quotestonecoldkilla: you call me names for requesting you to structure and summarize your ideas?? that's exactly what would provide a good basis for a discussion.
i didn't even criticise your idea as it's not exactly clear to me how your mode should work exactly and what the differences to a sector based standard svm map are (obviously it wasn't that clear to frvge as well, as your two versions kinda differ from each other...). i'm not bashing your idea, i just want to understand it more clearly.
it's really pathetic of you to call me a moron/retard/whatever for that, but i guess it's only a compensation for your lack of expression and analytical thinking.
how about responding to that?
instead of having to explain everything ten times, you could just make a goddamn list...
besides, it would force you to make more clear statements like how many and which gadgets one gets etc.
While I don't mind the idea of making a mode that seems more realistic and harder at that, I think it would have to wait until PS v. 2 due to map making. Is this hard to program? Would you use similar maps or have to create a whole new strand? Unfortunately I'm not really a big fan of this one. Like I said, I like the realism and how hard it might actually end up being....in the end it would be equivalent to disk hunt. Spies win disk hunt easy. Way too easy, which is why it sucked so much. Mercs will win this new mode with ease. ESPECIALLY if the spies have 0-2 gadgets. Few gadgets versus guns w/ visions....hahahahahaha. This mode will be obsolete within a week aside from the guy that just got the game and doesn't have the newest patches ;) . Then again...some people actually play DM...hahahahahahaha.
Quote from: Westfall on July 12, 2008, 08:13:30 AM
While I don't mind the idea of making a mode that seems more realistic and harder at that, I think it would have to wait until PS v. 2 due to map making. Is this hard to program? Would you use similar maps or have to create a whole new strand? Unfortunately I'm not really a big fan of this one. Like I said, I like the realism and how hard it might actually end up being....in the end it would be equivalent to disk hunt. Spies win disk hunt easy. Way too easy, which is why it sucked so much. Mercs will win this new mode with ease. ESPECIALLY if the spies have 0-2 gadgets. Few gadgets versus guns w/ visions....hahahahahaha. This mode will be obsolete within a week aside from the guy that just got the game and doesn't have the newest patches ;) . Then again...some people actually play DM...hahahahahahaha.
Good point. This is exactly why I suggested a balancing act mode. Where, in the beginning, it's easy for spies to win because of their superior gadgets, easier maps, and easier mercs. However, as the game goes on, it gets harder for spies and mercs get new gadgets and the maps become harder with more defenses and such. It would provide a challenge everytime even for the more experienced players.
I can't stress enough, I don't know how many times I have said this now...
'The less equipment the mercs have to use against the spies, the less environment the spies have to use against the mercs. Then as the stages progress mercs get more equipment, but the spies have more environment to use against them. This would make the way the spies use their environment more interesting, and considering the equipment available for the mercs and the environment at the spies disposal become more advanced as the stages progress, this interest would continue to exist.'
Frvge's version definitely differs in the sense of gadgets, I think spies should have the same 4 gadgets from the start, while mercs get gadgets at spies progress through the maps. However, in terms of the environment it starts out very open, which means that the spies have that dis-advantage of being seen very easily unless they use that environment to the best of their ability, but as they progress through the levels the environment becomes more advanced meaning that spies start to gain on their advantages as the mercs do too. This keeps everyone on their toes so it's not balanced to one side.
Rambo I'm sorry for lashing out I was having a bad day, sorry. Point is I just don't think a list is the best way of talking about this mode, a list wouldn't explain it very well which is why I don't see the point in making one. But you did say 'expression and analytical thinking' well if what I've been doing the whole topic isn't helping to analyse and express my thoughts I don't know what is.
Cleaned up at the request of the TS.
Arguing can be done at SCL and in PMs. Or make a special thread. I don't care. As long as the threads itself are mostly on-topic...
Thankyou Frvge :)
In my opinion I dont think it would work, not without some sort of Guard AI... But I applaud your sense of creativity.
To create believable, realistic AI that behaves in an appropriate manner to the game and not just a quake/UT bot is one hell of a lot of work. AI for this scenario is an epic undertaking in its own right - even though i know you were never suggesting that ;)
There are not many people who will walk patrol paths and behave like an unsuspecting bot though. They know you are there, they know its a game and they will hunt you down... People are competitive and it just wouldn't really be fun as a merc.
I think co-op projects stealth would be amazing, but I dont think any portion of the single-player experience was in the vision for PS.
Edit: The idea about it being similar to orphanage sounds really good though... while it really has some co-op experiences in there... I'd say its more like assault for UT ;)
Thanks for your input Scope, although my intention was never for mercs to have to play in a patrol manner like for example AI, the idea for these stages is for them to have large places to explore, each stages environment ranging from maybe as simple as for example the beginning of Station (not unbalanced like that of course) to as complex the final stage of Station, with many ways of getting around the map that makes it harder for the mercs to find the spies, although like I said there would be many more factors than just environment, I'm just trying to explain why it isn't really like 'patrolling' down for example a one way bridge.
Those aren't really as complex as I had in mind but I think you see where I'm coming from :P.