Spy vs. Merc gameplay is based of off 2 different teams.
The attacking team is the Spies, who lack the direct firepower required to overpower the Mercs, so instead must use their acrobatics and their indirect combat abilities to secure objectives, or kill the Mercs
The Mercs are the defending team, who have direct firepower, but the mobility of the Spies.
The Spies job is to evade and escape the Mercs, and complete the objectives, while the Mercs have 2 possibilities, either kill the Spies, or prevent them from capturing the objectives for the allotted time period.
This makes thinking up gadgets much easier. It means the Spy gadgets must do one of the following:
Assist in detection (Heartbeat sensor, Spy bullet, Spy camera)
Assist in evasion (Camouflage, Alarm snare, Spy camera)
Assist in escape (Smoke, Flash and Chaff grenades)
Assist in capturing of objectives (None)
While for the Merc gadgets, they must:
Assist in detection (Flare, Spy trap, Camnet)
Preform area denial (Mines, Spy trap)
Assist in combat (Frag grenade, Taser)
Assist in survival (Backpack, Gas mask)
Gas mask is a special one, as it is purely a counter for 2 spy gadgets, both of which are overpowering without gas mask. Meaning that the Merc must always take it, regardless of if the spy takes one of the 2 gadgets.
All gadgets must fall into one of these categories, and must be able to compete with, but not beat them, in their abilities.
And that is my Theory of Gadget Design.
The following is simply my idea on how to fix the gas mask.
I propose that as a gadget choice, Gas mask be removed, and be added as a permanent ability of the Merc, preventing this slot from being wasted.
Nice write-up. We dont know about gasmask yet.
This has been discussed before, and i agree with kub. Nice write-up btw.
When I seen your list about the spies having no gadgets to help with objectives, I came up with something. Just to get something out on the table, what about being able to double hack an objective? One spy could have to go the computer to start the hacking but another can target it from a certain range using a gadget to speed up the process. I don't think it's imbalanced and for any team I think it could be a useful gadget.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 02, 2009, 05:23:23 PM
When I seen your list about the spies having no gadgets to help with objectives, I came up with something. Just to get something out on the table, what about being able to double hack an objective? One spy could have to go the computer to start the hacking but another can target it from a certain range using a gadget to speed up the process. I don't think it's imbalanced and for any team I think it could be a useful gadget.
bad ideaaaa
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 02, 2009, 05:23:23 PM
When I seen your list about the spies having no gadgets to help with objectives, I came up with something. Just to get something out on the table, what about being able to double hack an objective? One spy could have to go the computer to start the hacking but another can target it from a certain range using a gadget to speed up the process. I don't think it's imbalanced and for any team I think it could be a useful gadget.
While I agree with Freeman that it's an imbalanced idea, I dislike how he doesn't explain why, so I will.
Basically, your gadget has these features:
Pros:
-Increases hacking speed
Cons:
-Takes up gadget slot
-Requires both players
-Alerts enemy to both player's presence
Which gives it use only when both players are at the same objective. Given that the Merc will immediately know that 2 players are there, him and his partner will rush the objective. Now 1 of 2 options will occur. The Merc makes it, in which the hacking gadget brings death to both of you, or he doesn't, in which you complete an objective, but now both of your locations are given away, and there are 2 heavily armed guards heading for your location. Not to mention that it has no function if you aren't with your teammate. Though, I do appreciate the attempt, because even though you didn't make the perfect gadget, you did give us a general idea.
I did think up a gadget for this very same problem though. It works like so:
Hack Plug
This device interfaces with your communications to allow you to remotely access computers. As soon as the device is plugged into the target computer, you are ready to begin hacking. Due to the wireless transmissions, you will not be able to hack as quickly, but you will be able to hack from anywhere that has a direct line of sight to the computer, within a given radius (Thin walls withstanding). Once you begin hacking, you will be unable to move, and attempting to stop hacking will take a second to disconnect. The Hack Plug self destructs when you cease to hack, and you have a limited supply, so make good use.
Pros:
-Allows you to hack from a distance
Cons:
-Hacks slower
-Limited amount
-Limited range
-Can only hack through soft walls (Walls you can see through with thermal)
-Requires that you physically reach the computer first
-Creates EMF
Basically, this lets put the plug in when the guard is looking away, get some distance, and hack.
As for Mercs, my new gadget is:
EMI (Electromagnetic interference) Suit
This is a suit worn underneath the Merc's body armor which when active, emits magnetic waves which interfere with all electric device within a certain range. It has a limited battery supply, similar to the oxygen in the gas mask, and disables friendly electronics as well.
Pros:
-Disables visions, cameras, shocker gun, etc.
-360 degree radius
Cons:
-Limited range
-Limited use
-Disables friendly mines, visions, etc.
The suit could either work as an alternative for the gas mask if you are making the gas mask a permanent gadget, or as another gadget.
I like that mercenary suit idea but the precise reason I didn't mention your 'hack plug' idea is because I felt that it would be imbalanced :P. The thing with my gadget idea is that the whole point is to hack with two players; the two players would speed up the process of hacking an objective so it's not necessarily a con IMO, it can benefit spies travelling togeteher (although it's not a good tactic to do that all the time anyway).
Like I said I was just getting the idea out on the table, I haven't thought about the balance much to be honest, but now that we are I still don't think that there's much dis balance about it, sure it takes up a gadget slot but if it benefits a spies style of play and doesn't harm the mercs in any other way than a decreased hacking time for an objective (like you said, they are already benefited from it in some ways) then I see no problem.
2 Spies hacking an objective would best not be linear. Like it hacks 1.5 times the normal speed.
New ideas are always good, doesn't matter if it's not really balanced.
Over-the-top ideas generally are not good, but anything that could possibly work, is a nice addition to the brainstorming process.
The biggest problem with new gadget ideas is that most of them are created just for the sake of making a new gadget. First think of something within the context of the game that would actually be useful yet not balance breaking (ie, rocket launchers for spies would be useful, but it doesn't fit the game), then work from there.
I would love a gadget that helps you to get to areas usually only accessible by coop moves. Say your partner doesn't have a mic. Say your partner is dead or on the other side of the map. What about a grabbling hook sort of thing? I know it's been discussed already but what if it can only be used in coop-move areas? This would not completely hurt the necessity of working together because both players can use a rope already in place, regardless of whether or not both players actually brought a grappling hook. This means that the grapple rope gadget isn't a gadget that just benefits those lone-wolves, but certainly helps when spies are separated or not working together. Setting up easy access to coop-spot areas might be a neat addition to gameplay.
To balance this idea, the following could be done:
1. Make it so that it's only useable once per life. Once the grappling rope is attached in place, the spy cannot pull it up and take it again. However, the spies can both use the grappling rope until the merc disables it (shoots it, pulls it down, whatever we want that to look like)
2. Possibly, setting up the hook makes noise. Maybe that would be too much, should it be a silent setup?
3. As I already said it can be disabled by a merc who comes across one in place.
*plus the obvious one being that it takes up a gadget slot.
This would add to gameplay because usually mercs think that places are non-accessible when they know the spies are separated. With a lone spy being able to access certain areas, though while making noise, you help to achieve a feeling for mercs that spies can be anywhere. Remember in Aqua when the doors to tech were still closed and you knew the spies were separated? It was pretty much a safe bet that tech was secure. It will force mercs to patrol areas that they could deem secure depending on how much they knew about 1 spy's position.
Yes, it *might* be a bit harder to balance maps, but balanced maps weren't drastically balanced by the placement of coop spots. Mercs would adapt anyway.
Just an idea. Any suggestions or reasons why this wouldn't be good for gameplay?
Not all coop spots are accessible by Mercs, which would mean infinite access to lone-wolves while they shouldn't be able to get up there.
QuoteI would love a gadget that helps you to get to areas usually only accessible by coop moves.
If coop is done right, ala Club House, Factory, and Orphanage, instead of stupid like Station, then this won't be necessary.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 12, 2009, 04:22:44 AM
I would love a gadget that helps you to get to areas usually only accessible by coop moves. Say your partner doesn't have a mic. Say your partner is dead or on the other side of the map. What about a grabbling hook sort of thing? I know it's been discussed already but what if it can only be used in coop-move areas? This would not completely hurt the necessity of working together because both players can use a rope already in place, regardless of whether or not both players actually brought a grappling hook. This means that the grapple rope gadget isn't a gadget that just benefits those lone-wolves, but certainly helps when spies are separated or not working together. Setting up easy access to coop-spot areas might be a neat addition to gameplay.
To balance this idea, the following could be done:
1. Make it so that it's only useable once per life. Once the grappling rope is attached in place, the spy cannot pull it up and take it again. However, the spies can both use the grappling rope until the merc disables it (shoots it, pulls it down, whatever we want that to look like)
2. Possibly, setting up the hook makes noise. Maybe that would be too much, should it be a silent setup?
3. As I already said it can be disabled by a merc who comes across one in place.
*plus the obvious one being that it takes up a gadget slot.
This would add to gameplay because usually mercs think that places are non-accessible when they know the spies are separated. With a lone spy being able to access certain areas, though while making noise, you help to achieve a feeling for mercs that spies can be anywhere. Remember in Aqua when the doors to tech were still closed and you knew the spies were separated? It was pretty much a safe bet that tech was secure. It will force mercs to patrol areas that they could deem secure depending on how much they knew about 1 spy's position.
Yes, it *might* be a bit harder to balance maps, but balanced maps weren't drastically balanced by the placement of coop spots. Mercs would adapt anyway.
Just an idea. Any suggestions or reasons why this wouldn't be good for gameplay?
I like this idea but i think since everything is coded from scratch that it only becomes active after your partner is completely dead.
Quote from: Spekkio on April 13, 2009, 01:34:48 AM
QuoteI would love a gadget that helps you to get to areas usually only accessible by coop moves.
If coop is done right, ala Club House, Factory, and Orphanage, instead of stupid like Station, then this won't be necessary.
what was wrong with station?
Start of Station was seriously flawed.
The fences are pretty much useless, you have to be playing against extremely dim mercs to get past them without co-op, and if you do use co-op you have to be seriously dim not to get past :P.
If one merc is watching the fences while the second merc is chasing your partner, you're still pretty much screwed, because you can only climb the fences then -> headshot -> dead.
Quote from: frvge on April 14, 2009, 05:26:30 PM
If one merc is watching the fences while the second merc is chasing your partner, you're still pretty much screwed, because you can only climb the fences then -> headshot -> dead.
Does not compute. You can tazer the merc and then climb the fence if done in a timely fashion.
If you can pull that off 3 out of 5 tries against MR.Mic or another good sniper, I'll believe you.
The issue, as stated, is that you have to use coop-only accessible areas to have any chance of infiltrating the map.
In the maps I referenced, the coop areas are still accessible by lone spies (minus factory, but coop just opens up additional objectives that are not necessary to win); coop just allows for an alternate access point to these areas.
Take out all the fences and it would be a lot better.
Either that or just put holes in the fences (or gaps) where spies can go through. Up to mapper.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on April 14, 2009, 07:34:23 PM
Quote from: frvge on April 14, 2009, 05:26:30 PM
If one merc is watching the fences while the second merc is chasing your partner, you're still pretty much screwed, because you can only climb the fences then -> headshot -> dead.
Does not compute. You can tazer the merc and then climb the fence if done in a timely fashion.
hahaha...only if you're opponent is a chimp...even then you would still get picked off.
Actually getting passed the fence is hard but not impossible. You have smoke / flash to help you. You can taz the merc and you can always do a HEADSHOT with taz which will give you time to taz him 2nd time and then just climb over the fence . Smoke / flash / chaff helps. Besides 1vs1 at stationg for mercs is dangerous if you are against good opponents. 1 cam and the nd can be easily taken . So the merc who is sniping the fence must be on alert for that so he can stop nd hack , which puts more pressure on him .
The other way is just to ask you teammate to taz the merc for you. If he tazes and you climb than you are surely to pass without getting yourself killed.
As to the gadget ideas . We should at the least wait for PS to come out before we can advise any gadgets.We don't really know how will it be played (game speed , shooting , aiming , mines , different mechanics ) They are gonna be similar to sc:ct but i doubt they are gonna be 100% identical. It will also depend on the maps. I don't really need a shotgun on clubhouse but it is useful on bank. Same goes for chaff , i don't need it on Bank but its really useful on museum / mount.
The coop strings are a good idea BUT why the hell you will need coop then ? Its obvious that jumping is a serious part of SvM . It would happily take it every round to be able to run around faster ( Climbing higher areas makes you get to places a lot faster than usually ) Just imagine me being able to climb garden 1 / 2 at club house with one jump. That would be totally impossible to stop even thought it is impossible to stop now with 1 merc.
I have a subject to 'propose' about the spys tazer weapon.
I think it would be a cool and new idea to add to PS that the spys tazer weapon is not rechargeable. If you think about it you have to be shooting something right? Some sort of projectile to stick the merc and shock him for a few seconds therefore you should have a limited supply. I was thinking maybe 10 or so which i conclude as the perfect amount. Enough to complete the objectives but not an excess to be an aggro pest and constantly shock the mercs etc.
It adds a brand new variable to the game and makes it more dynamic. You have to place your shots perfectly and determine the best time to effectively utilize your weapon.
what does everyone else think?
IMO, they don't need to be defenseless like that when they are out of 'bullets'. I think the balance of the main weapons was fine in PT/CT, so why fix what's not broken?
Quote from: frvge on April 23, 2009, 11:09:10 PM
IMO, they don't need to be defenseless like that when they are out of 'bullets'. I think the balance of the main weapons was fine in PT/CT, so why fix what's not broken?
I agree with furge. This idea is stupid.
10 is more than enough.
If you are stupid enough to waste a lot of 'bullets' and get yourself in sticky situations its fair enough you deserve to be stuck in that situation. Youre def not defenseless. you can still use your gun to shoot projectiles and you still have your hand deployed smoke, flashes and chafs.
Makes you think more and be smarter about your choices.
Its just adding something different to the game without drastically changing. I mean chaos theory was great and all but its going to get boring playing chaos theory on 1 new map. which looks like it going to be the case, at least for a good amount of time after the release of PS.
Quote from: OConnor on April 23, 2009, 11:19:42 PM
10 is more than enough.
If you are stupid enough to waste a lot of 'bullets' and get yourself in sticky situations its fair enough you deserve to be stuck in that situation. Youre def not defenseless. you can still use your gun to shoot projectiles and you still have your hand deployed smoke, flashes and chafs.
Makes you think more and be smarter about your choices.
Its just adding something different to the game without drastically changing. I mean chaos theory was great and all but its going to get boring playing chaos theory on 1 new map. which looks like it going to be the case, at least for a good amount of time after the release of PS.
this is rubbish. tazer is the spies only form of defense, the other gadgets (flash, smoke) are to help you evade the merc once he's seen you. giving spies 10 bullets is retarted, i could easily waste like 3-4 of those just trying to hit the bastard.
HOWEVER, i think this could be used for the merc instead, they spawn with way too many bullets, maybe cutting them down would make them more tactical with their bullets and only fire when necessary, but again its not really that important.
Quote from: FR33M4N on April 24, 2009, 01:12:16 AM
Quote from: OConnor on April 23, 2009, 11:19:42 PM
10 is more than enough.
If you are stupid enough to waste a lot of 'bullets' and get yourself in sticky situations its fair enough you deserve to be stuck in that situation. Youre def not defenseless. you can still use your gun to shoot projectiles and you still have your hand deployed smoke, flashes and chafs.
Makes you think more and be smarter about your choices.
Its just adding something different to the game without drastically changing. I mean chaos theory was great and all but its going to get boring playing chaos theory on 1 new map. which looks like it going to be the case, at least for a good amount of time after the release of PS.
this is rubbish. tazer is the spies only form of defense, the other gadgets (flash, smoke) are to help you evade the merc once he's seen you. giving spies 10 bullets is retarted, i could easily waste like 3-4 of those just trying to hit the bastard.
HOWEVER, i think this could be used for the merc instead, they spawn with way too many bullets, maybe cutting them down would make them more tactical with their bullets and only fire when necessary, but again its not really that important.
Alright well, to say its rubbish when you particularly cant hit a merc on the first shot just means youre rubbish. Smoke, flash, chaff, and the bullets are both defensive and aggressive weapons. Use your head, im not going to explain why. Of course they help you evade, hence being defensive. get it?
Maybe 10-20 bullets max or 10 in a clip, having extra clips or an ammo spot to refuel can be added. Its just a new variable to add. because all that we're looking at right now... a new map. how long till that gets old? Something different to make the game diverse yet true to the classic play.
Quote from: OConnor on April 24, 2009, 03:10:51 AM
Quote from: FR33M4N on April 24, 2009, 01:12:16 AM
Quote from: OConnor on April 23, 2009, 11:19:42 PM
10 is more than enough.
If you are stupid enough to waste a lot of 'bullets' and get yourself in sticky situations its fair enough you deserve to be stuck in that situation. Youre def not defenseless. you can still use your gun to shoot projectiles and you still have your hand deployed smoke, flashes and chafs.
Makes you think more and be smarter about your choices.
Its just adding something different to the game without drastically changing. I mean chaos theory was great and all but its going to get boring playing chaos theory on 1 new map. which looks like it going to be the case, at least for a good amount of time after the release of PS.
this is rubbish. tazer is the spies only form of defense, the other gadgets (flash, smoke) are to help you evade the merc once he's seen you. giving spies 10 bullets is retarted, i could easily waste like 3-4 of those just trying to hit the bastard.
HOWEVER, i think this could be used for the merc instead, they spawn with way too many bullets, maybe cutting them down would make them more tactical with their bullets and only fire when necessary, but again its not really that important.
Alright well, to say its rubbish when you particularly cant hit a merc on the first shot just means youre rubbish. Smoke, flash, chaff, and the bullets are both defensive and aggressive weapons. Use your head, im not going to explain why. Of course they help you evade, hence being defensive. get it?
Maybe 10-20 bullets max or 10 in a clip, having extra clips or an ammo spot to refuel can be added. Its just a new variable to add. because all that we're looking at right now... a new map. how long till that gets old? Something different to make the game diverse yet true to the classic play.
Yeah, b/c in a place protected by mercenaries, there would obviously be a spy ammo station...in the vents or something...
The idea is rubbish b/c it puts a limit on the spies, whereas mercenaries have free reign plus refills for bullets. I understand your idea, but it doesn't seem fit for this type of game play, given the FACT that it wasn't broken to begin with. Like frvge said, if it's not broken, why fix it. Nice idea, but I don't see it as a necessary feature for the game, since being spy is hard enough as is. If things end up differently in PS, maybe it could be considered, but even then I 100% doubt tazer will be an issue. Keep in mind the time limit, number of objectives, and limits to both side of secondary weapons. Tazer running out (which would HAVE to have a removable option for mercenary partners) is easily unbalanced and unwarranted for this mod.
On top of that, if a spy cant hit a merc with his tazer first time, the mercs have a chance to easily kill him anyway, so having to reload a tazer isn't really logical in the first place. Also like Frvge said, there really is no need for the change.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 24, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
On top of that, if a spy cant hit a merc with his tazer first time, the mercs have a chance to easily kill him anyway, so having to reload a tazer isn't really logical in the first place. Also like Frvge said, there really is no need for the change.
you dont have to reload it each time. its a clip of a predetermined amount of bullets.
--and just like there are exploding bombs to use in sabotage just chilling in mercenaries ammo boxes... ya
if you honestly think about it people. we are going to be playing chaos theory with 1 more map... like just trying to add something different. how long till lakehouse gets old and an imbalance is discovered and exploited... cmon people keep your minds open here.
The goal was to have around 4 maps at launch. So 1 map is not true. I'm not sure if we'll make the 4-map goal, but we'll try.
@OConnor's idea: It just doesn't work, it'll limit the spies way too much, and you also didn't consider the cross-continent gaming where you just can't count on perfect shots everytime, sudden lag spike and you'll be swearing in your chair for missing the shot. Also you'll be wasting way too much time to just to shock the merc since you can't afford to make a miss. 3rdly, what about the mines, spy traps etc. which you just can't deactivate without the shocker, you'll be running out of bullets too fast. The shocker is great as it is, and it does leave the spies defenseless enough when they go for the shock unless they do it from somewhere hidden out of sight (but why waste time shocking the merc then?), there's been countless of times where i have been shot in the head just when i was about to shock the merc, and vice versa. It'll limit both the stealth and the aggro playstyle too much, and i don't understand what's the deal with aggroing? You can do both without a problem in CT, and neither really gives you a unfair advantage over the other team. It's all in adapting to your opponents playstyle and countering it.
Quote from: OConnor on April 24, 2009, 06:57:39 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on April 24, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
On top of that, if a spy cant hit a merc with his tazer first time, the mercs have a chance to easily kill him anyway, so having to reload a tazer isn't really logical in the first place. Also like Frvge said, there really is no need for the change.
you dont have to reload it each time. its a clip of a predetermined amount of bullets.
I meant like reloading from an ammo box :/.
the only thing about the spy tazer that needs to be considered carefully is the "shocking timer".
in ct the shock effect lasted a tiny bit too long (especially for the host).
Imho the shock time in ct is fine. Taz / take is only possible due to spy having flash / smoke / chaff OR not so many defenses in place. If you Nerf a bit some spy gadgets or make a bit more defenses the problem will solve itself. You don't see a lot of taz + take on deftech don't you ? Some of the most extreme defenses are in deftech a sector and it shows it works fine. ( I think to many of them )
If you make the taz time shorter tazing anyone would be useless.