what is ur take on changing sticky cam vision mode into a kind of slplit screen or window mode, where one has the spy in third person view and the other has the sticky cams view and u can move the spy cam with mouse and the sticky cam with arrows but u cant move the spy until sticky cam mode is off.
another is
to eliminate the gun holstering noise. besides how does a fuckin laser make noise? thats weird.
idk.. wuteva.
start the flaming xD.
One of the negatives of using the cam is that you can't watch your back. This balances the great power of the sticky cam. So it's probably done for balancing reasons.
being a good spy is hard enough as it is.
i think that adding this would make the game more accesible. new players would want to learn how to use sticky cams if implemented.
besides. in the end, sticky cam skills is basically quick caming. so it wouldnt really be used by the good players.
I agree with fergee. Besides, not everyone uses quick cams all the time.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on May 26, 2009, 11:36:42 AM
being a good spy is hard enough as it is.
i think that adding this would make the game more accesible. new players would want to learn how to use sticky cams if implemented.
besides. in the end, sticky cam skills is basically quick caming. so it wouldnt really be used by the good players.
bullshit. all you gotta do is play team aggro and make use of the map imbalances and lag (in my experience, maps like club get won about 45% by the spy side, and maps like steel 70%).
after new players get cammed a handful of times they start doing nothing else but quickcamspam...
quick caming is not hard to do at all, every low-mid can do it okay. pros rather place cams somewhere unexpected and make use of them a minute later.
pulling your gun quickly has to make a remarkable noise, otherwise quickcams would be impossible to counter. switching laser on/off shouldn't make any noise, just as holstering your gun. maybe hbs should make some gentle periodical noise, too, as it's a litte overpowered in ct especially for quickcams.
How about, adding a healing animation for spies like in left 4 dead
and make healing take some time, not just like an instant thing.
it would be necessary for spies to hide in order to heal.
i think being spy is hard enough as it is, but its just an idea.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on May 27, 2009, 02:12:47 AM
and make healing take some time, not just like an instant thing.
i like this.
healing becomes only a problem in 2 cases:
-poison mines
-too many medkits close to objectives (club, polar vanilla, ...)
but those 2 are no real problem because
-poison mines shouldn't be in ps in the first place
-zed is capable of proper medkit placement
As I remember the discussion about PS, it was said long time ago (and the majority agreed) that the emphasis should be put on stealth playing. Fast healing becomes a problem when spies rush total aggro but when they play stealthy or something between stealth and aggro, cooperation should be supported.
Personally I think that spy team should be able to heal 2 times, which means that spy can heal his mate twice or heal him once and then be healed. 1 healing per life seems to be a good solution.
i think making game rules more and more complex is the wrong way. i'd rather suggest to get rid of some stuff than to add another counter/timer/limit/gadget/...
well rambo, now is your chance to speak up.
what would you rather get rid of for example?
or were u only being a smart ass and doing what u always do, which is contradict everything everybody says... lol.
Quote from: Rambo on May 27, 2009, 04:54:29 PM
-poison mines shouldn't be in ps in the first place
huh
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on May 28, 2009, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: Rambo on May 27, 2009, 04:54:29 PM
-poison mines shouldn't be in ps in the first place
huh
This, why shouldn't they be? It can also be used to get a spy to go somewhere very easily.
;D
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on May 28, 2009, 01:33:52 PM
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on May 28, 2009, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: Rambo on May 27, 2009, 04:54:29 PM
-poison mines shouldn't be in ps in the first place
huh
This, why shouldn't they be? It can also be used to get a spy to go somewhere very easily.
like mentioned several times before:
-gadget overlapping with spytraps
-mines don't need 3 different options (no other gadget offers that)
-the poison mine look and way of working differs to much from the other mine types which basically look the same and do the same eg explode, only with different ways of triggering
-pt worked fine without them
-we have no idea how they really work out as in ct they totally sucked apart from some really lame spots
Quote from: Roberto1223 on May 28, 2009, 06:48:07 AM
well rambo, now is your chance to speak up.
what would you rather get rid of for example?
or were u only being a smart ass and doing what u always do, which is contradict everything everybody says... lol.
you prick, stop spamming bullshit.
i wanna get rid of:
-poison mines (look above)
-uzi and shotgun (one weapon worked out fine in pt and is way better for balance purposes)
-hidden, non-obvious mechanics (gj with the vision modes mic; tutorial must mention every single mechanic unusual in typical fps games; visual/audio feedback for as much mechanics as possible)
-too many/long delays slowing down the game flow (mainly regarding animation stuff, probably done)
Your reasons for excluding poisons all suck.
You suck too.
<3
i forgot the most important one: the easier the rules and the harder a game to master, the better and more beautiful it is. just compare chess with go: simplicity (in rules eg gameplay mechanics) wins.
besides, ps probably wants to be more newb-friendly than ct. and not everything they changed from pt to ct is made of gold...
@ Rambo "the poison mine look and way of working differs to much from the other mine types which basically look the same and do the same eg explode, only with different ways of triggering"
THEY COME IN THE SAME 'PACK' CAUSE THEY HAVE A ONE THING IN COMMON.
THEY ARE ALL MINES!!!
in my opinion there is no good reason to eliminate poison mines...
BTW, how do they work? do they shoot a dart? wtf?
i provided tons of good reasoning, while you provided non for keeping them. grow up kiddie
Quote from: Rambo on June 02, 2009, 01:53:54 PM
i provided tons of good reasoning, while you provided non for keeping them. grow up kiddie
All of those reason's sucked. lol ur being a tard ;D.
What about keeping the negativity towards other people to the OT forum?
if my reasoning sucks that bad, why don't you go ahead and proove every single point wrong AND give some good points for keeping poison mines?
I don't think your points are valid, so as you wish lets analyse them. I don't see how they overlap with spy traps, spy traps are used to track a spy, and the spy is unaware of being tagged by a spy trap unless it's on purpose, or if a team mate can see that he's been trapped and remove it. Poision mines inform the player of their effect as soon as they take place, and they cause a response; to get health, or to do something useful as quickly as possible.
Mines don't need 3 different options, why not? It's good to have choice and this game is all about tactics. You say mines don't need three different types, yet you then say that the poision mine is dissimilar to a laser and a proxy, doesn't that make you see your hypocrisy? Just because PT worked well without posion mines doesn't mean that they don't improve the experience. Also, we do know how well they worked in CT, most of us used to play the game on a regular basis ;).
You asked for good points for keeping them, I've partially explained it just now, but I've also already provided a point for you, they can be used to bring a spy to a specific place. Whenever I place a poison mine in a spot that gets people all the time, I always idle around a health pack - it's a free kill really, and that's not all that poison mines can be used for, you can use them for more than what they are worth, yet they are already effective in their own right. If you plan on comparing laser mines to poision mines, it's a good point but one effect of laser mines that a poison mine does not have is an explosion, a visual cue to the team mate and the sound can alert team mates from a distance. A poison mine is more discreet.
basically, a poison mine is a less obvious laser mine with longer range and a slower killing with a slim escape chance. the problem with it is that if it really kills players regularily, it's overpowered with its spy trap range. afterall, a spy trap shows you on radar for a minute, and a poison mine kills you in 10-15s. and yet both have the same triggering method and placement options!
and if you make poison mines really deadly unlike ct, what's the point of laser mines?
poison mines also often come in place as a spytrap replacement. they don't track, but you can easily block certain pathways and come see if someone went through.
if poison mines stay in the game, it's easy to see that they can't get more deadly than in ct and that there have to be differences in placement options and laser visibility between laser mines, poison mines and spytraps (which are way too easy to see in tv).
To be honest all that I can do now I've argued with the facts is agree to disagree :P.
from my point of view, poison mines are important because laser mines have a long range laser, but the explosion radius only reaches about 1/8 of the laser's range
in contrast, a poison mine can harm a spy in all of the laser's range.
so this main difference is important depending on what the merc wants to defend or achieve.
so lets suppose that rambo gets his way, and poison mines are removed from PS.
what would have to be done to balance this?
*each laser mine placement would have to set up 2 mines that oppose eachother. this way, spies can no longer do what they did in SCCT, which was to run through the laser while being out of the explosion's range.
*many SCCT fans would whine against this and others would like it.
The end result would be coming up with a poison mine as a solution.
that is why poison mines exist.
i hope you understand what im trying to illustrate. let me know what your opinion is on this.
*do you like this new laser mine type at the expense of poison mines?
*would you rather have a single-sided laser mine (like in SCCT), and have poison mines too?
*would u rather have both poisons and dual laser mines?
*would this mean that the merc would lose 2 mines for every laser mine system he sets up? how would the mine count work?
**Maybe add a "dual laser mine system" to the mine deploying menu. and lose 2 mines for every dual laser mine system? idk let me know what you think.
what about simply not being able to do anything in the game? it's limitations that make a game interesting, otherwise you could simply give the mercs rocket launchers and the spies jetpacks...
who the fuck cares about some whiny kids?
mines should work up close, spytraps long range. closing the gap with something that has all the benefits of spy traps and KILLS slowly is simply poor game design.
Quote from: Rambo on June 03, 2009, 01:49:07 PM
what about simply not being able to do anything in the game? it's limitations that make a game interesting, otherwise you could simply give the mercs rocket launchers and the spies jetpacks...
who the fuck cares about some whiny kids?
mines should work up close, spytraps long range. closing the gap with something that has all the benefits of spy traps and KILLS slowly is simply poor game design.
poisen dart hits you as soon as the laser is triggered. why not make a small (as in VERY small) delay to stop poisens blocking off huge pathways like they currently do? That might fix what rambo's talking about.
well i wouldnt say that poison mines have the benifits of spy traps.. ZOoMG WTF.
in that case anything with lasers would have the same benifit. rofl.
anyway, i think that adding a delay is not ok cause then everybody would be like "WTF i poison mined ur ass!", and spies'd be like "leet skills nyguh!", and merc'd be like "Fuck cho lag u black!"
and it would result in total chaos and hate towards a game that devs are attempting to make lagless and BS-less.
otherwise i wouldnt mind a delay, but being realistic, its not like humans can dodge bullets (or fired darts) anyway, and even less when they dont see them coming.
so yeah i dont think a spy should be able to get away with walking through a laser mine and not getting poisoned, itd be fucking cheap.
maybe the laser mine system can be changed, maybe the laser mine can be designed with 2 lasers to the sides of the dart barrel, and that would compensate for the delay?
meh, this is bullshit. just stfu and call it a day. xD
The topic of poison mine has already been discussed....stop being so damn redundant.
what was the end result or conclusion in the past discussion?
the same as with the 1 weapon vs 3 weapon system: folks want gadget spam.
i still think that pt rifle and no poison mines would be great both for gameplay and balancing options though; just because the stupid majority thinks otherwise won't stop me from bringing up this important topic from time to time. maybe some day folks will see that less can be more.
Democracy is a bitch when your the minority... sorry man. :-\
Less can be more but as has already been discussed, there really isn't any point to removing the poison mine, a lot of people like it and as has been shown it definitely serves a good purpose.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 04, 2009, 08:05:17 PM
Less can be more but as has already been discussed, there really isn't any point to removing the poison mine, a lot of people like it and as has been shown it definitely serves a good purpose.
there is definitely a point if not many to remove them, and i fail to see the good purpose you're talking about. if you mean some ingame use by "good purpose", you could justify a rocket launcher just as easily.
Quote from: Rambo on June 04, 2009, 08:28:21 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 04, 2009, 08:05:17 PM
Less can be more but as has already been discussed, there really isn't any point to removing the poison mine, a lot of people like it and as has been shown it definitely serves a good purpose.
there is definitely a point if not many to remove them, and i fail to see the good purpose you're talking about. if you mean some ingame use by "good purpose", you could justify a rocket launcher just as easily.
rambo you're wrong, you're fighting a lost cause, they wont remove poisen mines, just give up.
nope, the majority is wrong. fuck democracy.
I think poison mines are just fine.
Poison mines should stay in the game, just for the reason of them being in the game.
If you get poisoned by it, it's your own fault for crossing spaces carelessly.
it just makes me sad that you guys can't follow my thoughts. i've posted all kinds of reasons twice if not more times, guess ignorance can't be helped.
I'm for getting rid of poison mines and increasing the number of spytraps in both field and inventory to five.
finally some1 who feels the same.
i'm also for increasing the amount of spytraps, as of now they are no real alternative to mines, backpack or camnet.
Quote from: Rambo on June 05, 2009, 01:37:57 PM
it just makes me sad that you guys can't follow my thoughts. i've posted all kinds of reasons twice if not more times, guess ignorance can't be helped.
People are allowed to legitimately disagree with you, dude.
and i'm allowed to call it ignorance, dude.
Then you should grow up and stop thinking that your opinion is the only one that matters, dude.
All parties should grow up.
We already modeled the mine a long time ago, so there's a high chance it'll be in.
We haven't programmed it in yet, so technically every option is still open.
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on June 05, 2009, 08:13:22 PM
Then you should grow up and stop thinking that your opinion is the only one that matters, dude.
i don't think that way. but i'm very sure about this particular subject and so far all i've heard against my opinion is bullshit like "it was in ct" or "it got use". if any1 would come up with good points for keeping them i wouldn't call it ignorance, but this clearly is.
Quote from: Rambo on June 05, 2009, 07:59:49 PM
and i'm allowed to call it ignorance, dude.
Hence why I still think you're an idiot. Your reasons for getting rid of poison mines STILL are not legitimate, well-rounded reasons. The only reason, clearly, is that you don't like them. Just because you suck with them, or always hit them, doesn't mean they should be banned for life. Obviously its hard to see the basic balance of poison mines...oh no it's not. They make spies chance using visions. Same can be said about spy traps. Both hurt, but one can be a game changer when ppl start to panic.....dude
stfu westfall. i don't wanna get rid of them because i sucked with or against them, my reasons are well-rounded and beyond that.
-poison mines gadget overlap with laser mines and spytraps (especially when used to see if a path they block has been taken; if you don't chase a good player into them he will rarely trigger it anyways so there's not much difference what kind it is) and
-have a general balance problem because of it, a) with them being deadly in most cases, they are far better than spytraps which don't kill and laser mines which have less range; b) with them being not really deadly you better use your mine number for deadly ones eg laser and proxy
-pt worked just fine without them
-spytraps need a boost anyways, so how about not just increasing their number but also removing the competition?
-having 2 mines that look similar and explode that magically turn into a totally different looking mine that shoots a dart is incoherent
-...(see other posts)
all points against it so far were
-they fill the gap between mines and spytraps (=bad!) and
-have a use which most players like (use doesn't justify anything)
-they are in ct (right next to tons of other bullshit, don't make me do a list; not everything in ct is golden)
but hey, i'm willing to compromise: if they stay in the game the killing timer may not get decreased and the spytrap amount needs to get higher just as the spytrap laser needs to get more invisible so that actually someone runs into it. ranges of both gadgets need to get a little bit shorter.
westfall, if you really read and understood those points you wouldn't call me a whiny idiot. but tbh, i don't care what you think about me, just what productive input i can give the ps team.
You complain about people not explaining their points yet you state yours as if they are facts and they really aren't, and don't say I haven't, because I have already responded to you in great detail :).
omfg rambo, just because two gadgets use a laser dosent mean one of them should be removed.
"lasers are used to see what path spies take"
what u say here is only a secondary use or a rational deduction of when a merc finds out his laser is gone, but its not really their actual use. (so yeh dont even use that as an argument).
*the poison mines porpuse is to KILL (yes it is for killing, if it dosent work on smart people then dont use em when playing against experienced players).
*the spy traps' porpuse is to make spies appear on the mercs radar.
THAT IS THEIR USE, AND IT IS DIFFERENT. THEY ONLY ARE SIMILAR BECAUSE THEY USE A LASER!
"have a general balance problem because of it, a) with them being deadly in most cases WHY WOULD THAT BE A BALANCE ISSUE; THEIR GOAL IS TO KILL, ITS LIKE SAYING FRAGS SHOULD GO OUT THE WINDOW BECAUSE THEY KILL. WTF., they are far better than spytraps which don't kill THEY ARENT MADE FOR THAT, WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU EXPECT MAN SERIOISLY...and laser mines which have less rangeTHATS WHY POISON MINES ARE GOOD, THEY ARE THE MERCS' LONG RANGE ALTERNATIVE OR SOLUTION; b) with them being not really deadly you better use your mine number for deadly ones eg laser and proxy WELL IF YOU DONT THINK THEY WORK THEN DONT USE THEM LIKE YOU SAID, BUT WHY SHOULD EVERYBODY ELSE NOT HAVE THE LIBERTY TO PICK THEM JUST BECAUSE OF YOUR WHINING?
-pt worked just fine without them THIS AINT PT NYGGUH, WANNA PLAY PT?, GO PLAY IT ALONE, GOOD LUCK FINDING PLAYERS.
-spytraps need a boost anyways, so how about not just increasing their number but also removing the competition? MAYBE WE SHOULD MAKE THE COUNT OF SPY TRAPS VS THE COUNT OF POISON MINES OPTIONAL, BUT NOT REMOVE THEM. NOBODY EVEN WANTS IT WITH EXCEPTION OF YOU ROFL!
-having 2 mines that look similar and explode that magically turn into a totally different looking mine that shoots a dart is incoherent"
I THINK THE DEVS WILL MAKE AN ANIMATION THAT TURNS THE MULTI FUNCTION MINE INTO ALL OF THE 3 KINDS OF MINE TYPES, ITS GONNA BE COOL. ITS NOT REALLY MAGICAL, THINK OF IT AS A SETTING OR OPTION THE MINE HAS.
Here is the reality, im gonna replay this thread in slow motion, that way maybe you understand that the time has come now for yout to stop, and look at your reflexion in the mirror and realize that you have been living a lie thinking that you are a genious.
hate to break it to you. sorry man. :'(
Just forget about all of this rambo. STFU, call it a day and go buy yourself a 12 pack of beer.
"rambo you're wrong, you're fighting a lost cause, they wont remove poisen mines, just give up."
"All of those reason's sucked. lol ur being a tard"
-FREEMAN
"Your reasons for excluding poisons all suck.You suck too."
"People are allowed to legitimately disagree with you, dude."
-AMBIGUOUS ROCKET
"Hence why I still think you're an idiot..."
"I think poison mines are just fine."
-WESTFALL
"I don't think your points are valid..."
-STONECOLDKILLA
"Poison mines should stay in the game..."
-WHITE DWARF
"nope, the majority is wrong. fuck democracy."
-rambo.
READ THIS, RE-READ IT, ANALYZE IT.
YOU IS A TRU WACKO MAN.
The fact that majority doesn't agree with him doesn't mean anything. However, I also can't see a good reason for not including poisons. TBH for me they worked pretty well, you had a chance to survive, they were chaffable, your mate could heal you. Everything is about proper map balance.
If we really want to make spy traps useful again we should think about boosting them.
robert, you clearly didn't understand one single argument. tbh, i can't stany any more of this pure stupidity and ignorance.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on June 06, 2009, 09:00:58 AM
omfg rambo, just because two gadgets use a laser dosent mean one of them should be removed.
"lasers are used to see what path spies take"
what u say here is only a secondary use or a rational deduction of when a merc finds out his laser is gone, but its not really their actual use. (so yeh dont even use that as an argument).
*the poison mines porpuse is to KILL (yes it is for killing, if it dosent work on smart people then dont use em when playing against experienced players).
i don't care about their intended use but about their actual use ingame. so far we don't have much practical experience because in ct good players used them 90% either as a spytrap replacement or only in combination with proxy mines at the medkit
*the spy traps' porpuse is to make spies appear on the mercs radar.which is less good than killing a spy which justifies their longer range compared to proxy/laser mines
THAT IS THEIR USE, AND IT IS DIFFERENT. THEY ONLY ARE SIMILAR BECAUSE THEY USE A LASER!
"have a general balance problem because of it, a) with them being deadly in most cases WHY WOULD THAT BE A BALANCE ISSUE; THEIR GOAL IS TO KILL, ITS LIKE SAYING FRAGS SHOULD GO OUT THE WINDOW BECAUSE THEY KILL. WTF. i said there are two options mainly depending on the kill timer: if they kill 90% of the spies running into them there is no more point for laser mines and spytraps; if they kill only 10% you better use laser/proxy mines because using your very limited number of mines eg 3 on something not deadly is plain stupid, they are far better than spytraps which don't kill THEY ARENT MADE FOR THAT, WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU EXPECT MAN SERIOISLY...and laser mines which have less rangeTHATS WHY POISON MINES ARE GOOD, THEY ARE THE MERCS' LONG RANGE ALTERNATIVE OR SOLUTION; b) with them being not really deadly you better use your mine number for deadly ones eg laser and proxy WELL IF YOU DONT THINK THEY WORK THEN DONT USE THEM LIKE YOU SAID, BUT WHY SHOULD EVERYBODY ELSE NOT HAVE THE LIBERTY TO PICK THEM JUST BECAUSE OF YOUR WHINING?i was only thinking through the results of 2 different balancing options
-pt worked just fine without them THIS AINT PT NYGGUH, WANNA PLAY PT?, GO PLAY IT ALONE, GOOD LUCK FINDING PLAYERS.i didn't say i wanted to play pt, i said the mine and spytrap system worked fine in pt and that not everything they changed from pt to ct was a good idea to change. i could just as easily say go play ct
-spytraps need a boost anyways, so how about not just increasing their number but also removing the competition? MAYBE WE SHOULD MAKE THE COUNT OF SPY TRAPS VS THE COUNT OF POISON MINES OPTIONAL, BUT NOT REMOVE THEM. NOBODY EVEN WANTS IT WITH EXCEPTION OF YOU ROFL!
-having 2 mines that look similar and explode that magically turn into a totally different looking mine that shoots a dart is incoherent"
I THINK THE DEVS WILL MAKE AN ANIMATION THAT TURNS THE MULTI FUNCTION MINE INTO ALL OF THE 3 KINDS OF MINE TYPES, ITS GONNA BE COOL. ITS NOT REALLY MAGICAL, THINK OF IT AS A SETTING OR OPTION THE MINE HAS.the models look way too different to do that, and it still wouldn't make much sense
I am going to completely destroy your points on why a poison mine should be removed.......as soon as I get time to sit at my computer. Until then, you should come up with a few better points and add them to your post so they too can be analyzed.
Quote from: Westfall on June 06, 2009, 07:38:27 PM
I am going to completely destroy your points on why a poison mine should be removed.......as soon as I get time to sit at my computer. Until then, you should come up with a few better points and add them to your post so they too can be analyzed.
GO GO GADGET WESTFALL PWNAGE, hi5 stealth partner :D !
Quote from: AgentX_003 on June 06, 2009, 10:46:17 PM
Quote from: Westfall on June 06, 2009, 07:38:27 PM
I am going to completely destroy your points on why a poison mine should be removed.......as soon as I get time to sit at my computer. Until then, you should come up with a few better points and add them to your post so they too can be analyzed.
GO GO GADGET WESTFALL PWNAGE, hi5 stealth partner :D !
@ Roberto: wow you actually do have a brain , this has been the most intelligent thing uve said thus far, i hope this keeps up, and I agree totally with ur points, rambo needs to stop having the mentality that hes superior to everyone, because he sucks at the game and theres screen shots from other seeing him bitch in the game, I hate to say it but its the german in him that just wont give up.
sorry for the dbl post i dont have that option to delete it :( .
Its nice to know that agent agrees with me for the first time in life.
lol.
Just to play Devil's Advocate:
When PT had two different types of grenades, they were separate gadgets. Additionally, phosphorous grenades were a lot weaker than poison mines or laser mines. So why keep multiple types of mines as the same gadget?
You mean phosphorous grenades? And AFAIK, the laser and normal mine were in 1-gadget slot as 'Mines'.
Quote from: frvge on June 07, 2009, 05:14:53 PM
You mean phosphorous grenades? And AFAIK, the laser and normal mine were in 1-gadget slot as 'Mines'.
that is correct , I revisited Pandora tomorrow online not to long ago thanks to the brilliant technology we call :
hamachi :D !
I think that if you use a cam you should be sure you are safe before you fire it (as long as it's not a quick cam attempt ofc)
i guess what spekkio is saying is that mines are way too flexible compared to other gadgets: you get 3 gadgets in one. the best thing to do both for balance and for coherency would be:
-remove poison mines
-make presence detectors look more like spytraps (eg spytraps with laser turned off and beeping)
-reintroduce phosphorous nades as a seperate gadget
-boost flares or get rid of them
I wasn't saying anything, I was just posing a question about an inconsistency regarding multiple functions vs. separate gadgets.
I still like combining flares with phosphorous grenades. Instead of the bright white light it would be a neon(ish) green glow - and it would burn spies like phosphorous + make them leave footsteps.
Quote from: Papa Skull on June 08, 2009, 04:36:17 PM
I still like combining flares with phosphorous grenades. Instead of the bright white light it would be a neon(ish) green glow - and it would burn spies like phosphorous + make them leave footsteps.
on the contrary it didn't , it just left them highlighted in green and trackable in motion.
I worded that badly. I mean burn spies like the new flare thing we had in mind. That + Phosphourous effects, yeah. I would like that but that's just me.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 08, 2009, 02:41:48 PM
I wasn't saying anything, I was just posing a question about an inconsistency regarding multiple functions vs. separate gadgets.
well, you're stating that there's an inconsistency. but sorry for misinterpreting the whole question as rhetorical.
The animosity on this forum has decreased a lot, myself included. haha
Quote from: Rambo on June 06, 2009, 01:29:41 AM
stfu westfall. i don't wanna get rid of them because i sucked with or against them, my reasons are well-rounded and beyond that.
Let's hope so....let's take a look, shall we.
Quote-poison mines gadget overlap with laser mines and spytraps (especially when used to see if a path they block has been taken; if you don't chase a good player into them he will rarely trigger it anyways so there's not much difference what kind it is)
I don't understand why you think they overlap. Is this because they are "beamed" objects? If so, I don't see how that warrants much of change. If you're going to get that technical, all beam overlapping has to be abolished...not just because poison mines do it...I could say to get rid of spy traps because they overlap beams too. Just for the record: using poison mines takes away from the TOTAL mine count placement. Remember...3 mines....3 traps. Your choice of trap (detector) and your choice of mines, 2 of which have beams. Are these beams pissing you off? I don't get what you're angry about here.
Quote-have a general balance problem because of it, a) with them being deadly in most cases, they are far better than spytraps which don't kill and laser mines which have less range; b) with them being not really deadly you better use your mine number for deadly ones eg laser and proxy
Okay...solutiuon to A and B is making laser mine timer quicker, which was going to happen anyways. I find it interesting that both beamed mines give you the chance of surviving: one with not getting hurt enough by the explosion and the other by getting healed by your partner or first aid. They are supposed to be more deadly than spy traps because they are poison...and a mine, not a good combination for living. They were meant to be stronger than spy traps. Spy traps can get you killed in a number of different ways too. Your argument here, well there isn't one. Poison mines are plenty deadly (touching on option B here). If you're planning right you can use a poison and a proxy to take a notch off of the spy's life-span...then use your backpack to refill, so amount of mines never really becomes that much of an issues. So...k.
Quote-pt worked just fine without them
I don't doubt that, but CT worked better with them AND added a little variety.
Quote-spytraps need a boost anyways, so how about not just increasing their number but also removing the competition?
This isn't justification for getting rid of poison mines. If another gadget needs a boost, and you are taking away from another gadget, then it seems like there was already a balance there. You just want something to be stronger. I will agree that spy traps need either a longer timer, or an increased number ( i agree with increased number), but if poison mines were so "not deadly" in your other argument, why would you eliminate them? IF ANYTHING, you've made an argument as to why spy traps shouldn't have an increase in number...they will be more deadly than laser, proxy, AND poison mines. Thats more of making mines obsolete isn't it? It would be nice to still have a few laser beams in a hallway to throw a spy off.
Quote-having 2 mines that look similar and explode that magically turn into a totally different looking mine that shoots a dart is incoherent
So is having 4 lives....So is magically getting healed by your teammate and being fine. The realism argument is understandable, but redundant now. Some things fit, others don't. To me, a trigger that shoots a poison dart into a moving figure giving it a certain amount of time to live doesn't seem as far fetched as healing a teammate. Don't drop the "realism" bomb if you aren't going to nerf everything else about this oh so realistic game.
Quote-...(see other posts)
No...you're repetitive and boring now.
Quoteall points against it so far were
-they fill the gap between mines and spytraps (=bad!) and
-have a use which most players like (use doesn't justify anything)
-they are in ct (right next to tons of other bullshit, don't make me do a list; not everything in ct is golden)
I don't think they fill a void b/w mines and spy traps, since both have a limited number anyways. Again, the variety of having more than one option for a mine is in many games with different weapons. This is limited to very few gadgets that can actually exist in this type of game. I agree, not everything in CT is golden...neither are the ideas to cut certain things that aren't broken.Poison mines have proved very useful and work with the current system. This is rare since most things need to balanced hardcore.
Quotebut hey, i'm willing to compromise: if they stay in the game the killing timer may not get decreased and the spytrap amount needs to get higher just as the spytrap laser needs to get more invisible so that actually someone runs into it. ranges of both gadgets need to get a little bit shorter.
I thought ranges were just fine. I also thought timers were just fine. The poison mine timer wasn't meant to kill you instantly. It was meant to get the adrenaline going and make the player panic, which results in clutch performance or death. Hence why you think it is weak, when it really isn't...at all.
Quotewestfall, if you really read and understood those points you wouldn't call me a whiny idiot. but tbh, i don't care what you think about me, just what productive input i can give the ps team.
I understand what you're trying to do and I also understand why your points don't make sense. What I don't understand is why you try to justify getting rid of poison mines without a good point. I don't care what I think about you either, b/c it would waste brain space. Your aren't producing productive input. You're posting personal preference, which the devs aren't looking for.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 07, 2009, 04:30:26 PM
Just to play Devil's Advocate:
When PT had two different types of grenades, they were separate gadgets. Additionally, phosphorous grenades were a lot weaker than poison mines or laser mines. So why keep multiple types of mines as the same gadget?
This is why it doesn't matter and adds variety. You're going to bring back the weak phosphorus grenade and eliminate the supposed weak poison mine? Done here.
QuoteI don't understand why you think they overlap. Is this because they are "beamed" objects?
if you avoid running into any beams (which is what good players do unless there's really no other option), there is no difference.
QuoteOkay...solutiuon to A and B is making laser mine timer quicker, which was going to happen anyways.
which kinda proves my point that laser mines are weaker than poison mines in ct.
QuoteThis isn't justification for getting rid of poison mines. If another gadget needs a boost, and you are taking away from another gadget, then it seems like there was already a balance there.
what you call "balance" is exactly the gadget overlapping you deny: because they do similar jobs, you can't boost both.
QuoteIF ANYTHING, you've made an argument as to why spy traps shouldn't have an increase in number...they will be more deadly than laser, proxy, AND poison mines. Thats more of making mines obsolete isn't it?
i think we both agree that one mine is stronger than one spytrap for obvious reasons. so if you want to make equipment choice a real choice, all gadgets need to be about the same strenght which clearly isn't the case now. the easiest way to accomplish that i by changing the number of deployable gadgets.
QuoteThe realism argument is understandable, but redundant now.
there's a difference between coherency and realism. we both are used to the non-obvious mechanics in svm after playing houndreds of hours, but new players aren't. i thought ps wanted to be more newcomer-friendly?
QuoteI don't doubt that, but CT worked better with them AND added a little variety.
it's better to let variety arise out of different play styles, not complex basic rules.
QuoteI thought ranges were just fine. I also thought timers were just fine. The poison mine timer wasn't meant to kill you instantly. It was meant to get the adrenaline going and make the player panic, which results in clutch performance or death. Hence why you think it is weak, when it really isn't...at all.
i never said they are weak or have no use. the other changes like shortening the maximum range to stop total blocking and increasing the spytrap count to make them a real alternative to camnet/backpack have also been suggested by other folks like spekkio.
QuoteThis is why it doesn't matter and adds variety. You're going to bring back the weak phosphorus grenade and eliminate the supposed weak poison mine? Done here.
we all agree that flares are useless and that ph. nades were fun in pt. now combine ph. nades with flares, increase the green stuff timer on the ground to infinity or make it inflammable and you got yourself one hell of a useful gadget.
besides, what's your point? i don't care if i remove a strong rocket launcher or a weak graffiti can from the game as long as it makes the game better.
Poison mines should be more deadly (kill in 10 sec vs. 15) and have a much shorter range than spy traps...figure slightly longer than laser mines. If the laser will extend further than its effective range, you shouldn't be able to place it.
Would solve the problem of certain areas being "locked off" by poison mines (Deftech building C, Orphanage storage, etc).
Quote from: Spekkio on June 10, 2009, 02:55:18 PM
Poison mines should be more deadly (kill in 10 sec vs. 15) and have a much shorter range than spy traps...figure slightly longer than laser mines. If the laser will extend further than its effective range, you shouldn't be able to place it.
Would solve the problem of certain areas being "locked off" by poison mines (Deftech building C, Orphanage storage, etc).
I can agree with this. Although I don't think they need a boost, changing beam length and timer is a nice solution.
I recognize your points Rambo, but they seem to contradict themselves. You do say that poison mines are not too deadly, which makes Them weak, but no where do you say anything about laser mines being weak. Also, poison mines are user friendly or noob-friendly. They serve that same function as laser mines do. Another addition, just because there are more than one beamed gadget does not mean they both need a boost, you are correct. However, it does not justify cutting a completely useful and diverse gadgy from the list.
well, if you don't cut them from the list they need serious tweaking. i'd say half the range and 10-12s kill timer. it would also make sense to change the look to something like a proxy/laser mine frame with some other module in it. laser mines should also blow up rather instantly.
on spytraps: i think they should keep their long range and get boosts like
-laser only visible from very up close in thermal vision so that spies actually run into it by accident
-increase amount of simultaniously placable traps and start loadout both to 5 (backpack 3/3)
-allow more creative placement eg on the floor, with a different angle than 90 degree etc
-make presence detectors more silent or remove noise at all and replace it with some thermal blinking
this way spytraps get a sneaky very versatile tool for tracking down spies instead of something to block off certain pathways on maps with bad camnet coverage.
Also, while we are talking about poison mines, I say that poison mines be the one type of mine/trap for mercs that can be placed basically anywhere. It can be placed on one end of a large room but the range is only as big as the devs want it to be. I say about a 60 feet range where the poison dart cannot reach. It will lead to more strategic placement and variety.
Maybe the laser goes across the room but the dart only goes a set distance. That way spies can disable poison mines by activating the dart by crossing the very end of the laser (if it's a long laser beam). Maybe it should make a slight noise? Maybe the effective range of the poison dart shouldn't be visible and just something for the players to judge? Instead of an indicator, like the laser stopping 60 ft. from the mine, I say leave it up to the player's judgment abilities. Does this look like 60 feet? Should I chance it?
I think it's more immersive and smart to do it that way. my deux scents
Then it makes it a game of guesswork instead of strategic outmaneuvering.
QuoteAlso, while we are talking about poison mines, I say that poison mines be the one type of mine/trap for mercs that can be placed basically anywhere. It can be placed on one end of a large room but the range is only as big as the devs want it to be. I say about a 60 feet range where the poison dart cannot reach. It will lead to more strategic placement and variety.
That's the complete opposite of what I suggested.
yea it is
So what? Compare them then.
My points:
-it makes the poison placeable anywhere, but keeps its range the same
-makes the mine a unique choice and could lead to strategic placements
-gives spies a chance to silently disable the mine if they know how far the mine is away
-the mine could actually be made to hurt the spy more depending on how close the spy was to the mine, and not at all when at a certain range. (like it has been talked about) So that eliminates the guessing game.
-maybe the laser shouldn't go all the way but instead fizzle out when at the designated range so as to eliminate the guessing game.
Your guessing game point was valid but there are ways to work around that, correct? I'm just trying to brainstorm. It can work.
give it a rest and stop bitching about the mines their fine the way they r. :P
you bumped a thread to say "give it a rest"?
hehe, nice.
i wasnt talking about u lol. mainly the other ppl
His point was that the thread is already arest :P.