Project Stealth

Question: are you gonna "port" some of the mechanics/bugs/glitches of CT that made it special?

Example: when you jump from a great height as a spy, you can do the vision glitch. This is obvious a glitch, but it does add extra complicity and thus extra gameplay. It takes some time to perfect the timing, but gives you that little extra advantage.

Example: the crouch/roll/crouch. This is 2nd nature for all of us. I'm pretty sure ubi didnt intended it like that. This also takes some practise to perfect it, but then it can give you a distinct advantage over players who dont "master" it.

Example: tripple nading

Example: some of the animations giving one advantages or disadvantages (pretty sure i dont want this one)

I think those little glitches make a part of the charm of scct, and thus you might create them on purpose to give that to PS also. Its some of those little game mechanics that are responsible for a great part of the gameplay.

vision change is a glitch without a doubt.


crouch roll crouch, i dont consider a glitch.  The design is that you have to take 3-4 standing steps before you ping the reticle.  I would like to keep that in the game.

Triple nadding...that was not a glitch...it was fully intended in PT that you could triple nad.

The same with emf ghosting,  its not a glitch...considering you can see still see everything else in emf, why should the spy be magically invisible?

all in all, it is these hidden gems that do make the game fun.

All except triple nading, I consider glitches.

Given I played the xbox version, crouch/roll/crouch isn't even possible there due to the control setup.

EMF ghosting you don't really have to deal with either, because everyone is playing on the same hardware.

Triple nading isn't really clear whether it's truly a glitch or not. It's a bit harder to do on xbox, but you can still can, there's just a little pause, compared to the PC version where the nades are almost instantaneous.

Really, I'd say take out most of the glitches or make them a generic part of mechanics that doesn't require a glitch, and make sure it's actually taught in tutorials.

For instance, if you like the vision glitch, then don't make a stun effect when you fall at all. Just make it automatically work. Then newbies get the benefit of the glitch too.

If crouch/roll/crouch exists, it should be taught in tutorials, or at the very least there should be a spy sound indicator so the spy can see if he's making noise doing that particular move or not. I generally don't like the idea of secret abilities or moves that aren't taught to you and can't even be figured out with experimentation unless you've got a second guy to listen for sound.

EMF ghosting should probably just go away. That doesn't add anything to the game aside from unbalancing one of the best balanced visions there is.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on August 08, 2007, 08:31:47 PM
Then newbies get the benefit of the glitch too.

This game should not be newb friendly.  It should take some skill at least to be able to do the little tricks in it.

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 08, 2007, 09:08:14 PM
This game should not be newb friendly.  It should take some skill at least to be able to do the little tricks in it.

There's a difference between dumbing down the game itself and just removing pointless little hidden tricks. The vision glitch isn't reactive at all, nor is roll/crouch/roll. They're just stuff you do on your own and are static maneuvers. There's just no real reason to make that stuff a pain in the ass for people to do. There's no logical reason why you should have to change your vision as you hit the ground from a long fall. There's no reason why you should have to do a series of keypresses to move silently with no merc around. It's stupid.

If we want people to get stunned, then make it unavoidable stun, if we want people to be able to move, then just let them move. Not a difficult concept.

I hate the idea of secret glitches. It's just pointless vet elitism. If you're so good at the game, then you should be able to defeat newbies who have access to this stuff by default. You aim faster and you have better tactics. If you can't win without secret handshake glitches that you don't want to share with people, then you're not a good player. Period.

All these things have been talked about once by the team and will probably be talked about a few more times.

Quote from: frvge on August 08, 2007, 09:44:22 PM
All these things have been talked about once by the team and will probably be talked about a few more times.

Well, what did you guys think about it?

If you claim to want all of this input, why not release the info to the community?

Well,

I am for removing the vision glitch and make it standard, removing the EMF-ed spy or at least the 'hack' message. Rest can stay as it is IMO.

Quote from: frvge on August 08, 2007, 10:20:03 PM
Well,

I am for removing the vision glitch and make it standard, removing the EMF-ed spy or at least the 'hack' message. Rest can stay as it is IMO.

Sorry if I came off as offensive, but, that's just what I think. There is no reason not to tell everyone what is going to be in a mod. And, the majority of us are all from the same forum for multiple years, so it's not like you can't trust anyone.

Anyways, the emf spy should stay in my opinion. just make it take skill, not a powerful gpu and settings.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on August 08, 2007, 09:19:23 PM
There's a difference between dumbing down the game itself and just removing pointless little hidden tricks. The vision glitch isn't reactive at all, nor is roll/crouch/roll. They're just stuff you do on your own and are static maneuvers. There's just no real reason to make that stuff a pain in the ass for people to do. There's no logical reason why you should have to change your vision as you hit the ground from a long fall. There's no reason why you should have to do a series of keypresses to move silently with no merc around. It's stupid.

If we want people to get stunned, then make it unavoidable stun, if we want people to be able to move, then just let them move. Not a difficult concept.

I hate the idea of secret glitches. It's just pointless vet elitism. If you're so good at the game, then you should be able to defeat newbies who have access to this stuff by default. You aim faster and you have better tactics. If you can't win without secret handshake glitches that you don't want to share with people, then you're not a good player. Period.

The difference between a game can sometimes be a split second, it can be decided by whether you time it correctly or not.  If you don't time it right, you can lose the game.  If you don't time it right, you may not win or get away.  They aren't always pointless glitches.  Say you are hopping over a rail and a merc throws a grenade where you are hopping down.  If you don't perform the trick correctly you would be killed by the grenade, if you do, then you would get away and maybe get a hurt a little.  N00bs should learn how to perfect it, and be able to survive.  Automatically giving noobs this ability to get away easier is stupid, they should have to learn it.  And how exactly is it a "pain in the ass" to do?  It should take a little effort to do because it can decide whether you live or not.

Agree with papa. These are things that need to be mastered, not given away free.

about the vision glitch fall thingy:

imo, take out the glitch/don't put it in (durrrhhh) and increase the distance before the hard-land animation kicks in.

or instead of this stupid animation when doing the vision bug, make the spy do a roll (like the parkour guys do) when the glitch (trick?) is done.

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 08, 2007, 11:10:32 PM
The difference between a game can sometimes be a split second, it can be decided by whether you time it correctly or not.  If you don't time it right, you can lose the game.  If you don't time it right, you may not win or get away.  They aren't always pointless glitches.  Say you are hopping over a rail and a merc throws a grenade where you are hopping down.  If you don't perform the trick correctly you would be killed by the grenade, if you do, then you would get away and maybe get a hurt a little.  N00bs should learn how to perfect it, and be able to survive.  Automatically giving noobs this ability to get away easier is stupid, they should have to learn it.  And how exactly is it a "pain in the ass" to do?  It should take a little effort to do because it can decide whether you live or not.

If people want to make it about skill, then fine, make it about skill, but forget the secret handshake BS. The control needs to be explained from the beginning in the tutorial and should be a button that makes sense (probably jump or crouch for a fast landing). And it should be something everyone knows about, not some weird trick where you activate something nonsensical like switching visions and it makes you recover faster.

I don't think it adds much to the game to require people press a certain button everytime they land. It's needless tedium. CT isn't a game of button mashing anyway.

I mean look at it this way. If we wanted we could implement slow movement to require multiple presses of the forward key in a rhythm that has to be properly maintained, press too fast and you make noise, press too slow and you aren't going at max speed. It would certainly add more "skill" to the game, but it just isn't very fun or engaging.


And if anything I prefer making the controls simpler and more predictable rather than adding random stuff you've got to do to land and walk around correctly. There is enough to learn already in this game without putting in hidden nonsensical mechanics.

I think that EMF ghosting should stay, you can still see the "ghost" of the objects, so why not see the spy ghost too. About the hack thing appearing, it should stay too, even if its by pure luck, you're still aiming at the spy.

I somewhat agree with invisible man.  I think there should be a roll to land faster, and it should be explained in a turorial thingy.  But it should still take some time to master, and timing should be the major roll in this little trick.

What we all should remember (us pc gamers atelast) is what made us come back to the game time after time.

Is it the black leather suits?

No its the complexity of the game, it keeps rewarding you for spending time with it.

When i first started with PT the thing that made it so damn addictive was that its not a game i can look at a turtorial video and learn in a day, i always discovered new stuff that can be used to an advantage. In the beginning the old veterans of PT really whopped my ass time after time, but here i actually had no problem with it. I thought that "hey, they have played more and this game is god damn complex, i have alot to learn" (yes i also had some angry thoughts on how much i wanted chop your hands off so i could have a chance)

Small glitches like these are stuff you will learn if spending time, you just have to spot them then learn how to time them. If this had been a EA game all of these glitches would probably been upgrades you can gather after spending several hours ranking up.

InvisibleMan999:
"For instance, if you like the vision glitch, then don't make a stun effect when you fall at all. Just make it automatically work. Then newbies get the benefit of the glitch too."

That is wrong, newbies are not supposed to have pro playstyle.
Little (bad)comparisson: Should Valve make a turtorial on how to shoot trough walls and where in CS? Or should they show where you can boost others up on "unreachable spots"  Sure its not the same game, its not even half as complex as splintecell but its small things you learn with experience.

You cant try to make splintercell shallow and noobfriendly, that will not bring back the core. It might gather some new players but in the end i am guessing this project is building somewhat on perfecting the old game we all loved AND hated.

Damn to early, I cant even understand what i am writing..

Rolls can set off laser mines or other static/dynamic defenses. I prefer a hard landing over a roll I think.

That would be the price of escaping.

well, those "glitches" add a factor of possible failure. Station: without the glitch it would be even harder for the spies to make it. If you preform it correct, you are awarded with a quick getaway, if you dont perform, possible death. Skill is awarded.

Kebab, one step is enough to set off the sound reticle. The crouch/roll/crouch hinges upon not taking any steps while standing. That said, I don't consider it a glitch. Yes, Invisible, PC has superior controls because we have access to more buttons with more fingers. This is something you have to deal with when switching between platforms. Saying that we should gimp something because it's impossible with an Xbox controller is not a good argument. Can you instantly turn 70 degrees to your left and shoot at a spy? Didn't think so. Does that mean that we need to remove the option to use a mouse? Fuck no. Using your logic, turning instantly to any other angle than 180 degrees is a glitch because it can't be done on the Xbox.

Likewise, triple-nading is not a glitch, and I have no problem with it staying in the game. Keep in mind that people who have triple nades either sacrifice recon or sticky cams. The former doesn't let them know where you are, the latter doesn't allow them to KO in as many ways.

I'd like to see the vision glitch fixed, but it's not really at the top of the "to fix" list for me.

EMF ghosting isn't a glitch, either. It's a mechanic in the game engine. It's no more a glitch than shooting someone in the head and scoring a kill. Furthermore, EMF ghosting is independent of screen resolution and graphics settings, so seeing spies in EMF actually takes a skillful eye. Because of that, I think it should stay in the game.

i dunno, when i played on my fx card with all the settings down to minimum, i couldn't see a spy standing just in front of me on emf...

Quote from: Spekkio on August 09, 2007, 07:50:36 PM
Yes, Invisible, PC has superior controls because we have access to more buttons with more fingers. This is something you have to deal with when switching between platforms. Saying that we should gimp something because it's impossible with an Xbox controller is not a good argument. Can you instantly turn 70 degrees to your left and shoot at a spy? Didn't think so. Does that mean that we need to remove the option to use a mouse? Fuck no. Using your logic, turning instantly to any other angle than 180 degrees is a glitch because it can't be done on the Xbox.

Well, my argument isn't necessarily that it shouldn't exist because it's not on xbox, that's just my reasoning that the designers didn't really intend it to be there and that it's an unexpected glitch, not a feature. As far as whether to leave it in or not, I would only leave it in if there's some kind of indicator saying if the spy makes noise or not and crouch/roll/crouch is mentioned in the tutorial. People need to know they can do it and be able to know if they're doing it right, so they can practice it.  Any glitch that requires two people to practice shouldn't exist.

Triple nading is a possible glitch we can leave in, because while it may or may not be an intention, doing it is obvious to everyone, noob and pro alike, and you can go and practice it on your own. So that's fine.

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EMF ghosting isn't a glitch, either. It's a mechanic in the game engine. It's no more a glitch than shooting someone in the head and scoring a kill. Furthermore, EMF ghosting is independent of screen resolution and graphics settings, so seeing spies in EMF actually takes a skillful eye. Because of that, I think it should stay in the game.

Well if I'm not mistaken, some graphics settings make EMF ghosting easier to discern. I'm not exactly sure what those settings are (I know resolution certainly helps). But if we can't get EMF ghosting equal for everyone, I'd say just take it out.

One of the disadvantages of programming a stealth game for PC is that you've got loads of hardware and graphics configurations all running the same game. For a normal FPS this isn't a big deal, but when being noticed or not being noticed is a balance issue, it's something that needs to be really looked into.

Now, I'm not sure the specifics of programming EMF vision and how that interacts with different hardware setups, but if it can't be made equal or almost equal, I'd say just take out the ghosting. I've been EMF ghosted at absolutely sick distances sometimes, and I'm certain it wasn't just because they had a discerning eye.

Quote from: Nitro on August 09, 2007, 07:14:14 AM
InvisibleMan999:
"For instance, if you like the vision glitch, then don't make a stun effect when you fall at all. Just make it automatically work. Then newbies get the benefit of the glitch too."

That is wrong, newbies are not supposed to have pro playstyle.

So glitching is pro playstyle?

Any newbie can do the vision glitch, it's not about skill. It's just that it's a hidden mechanic that they don't know about. It's much like having a cheat code you can punch in. I mean, when I first learned the vision glitch, it didn't take me any time to master at all. Of course, it took years before I actually started doing it, because I simply didn't know. Is it a pro skill? Certainly not. I could teach my 12 year old cousin to vision glitch in a few minutes even if he's never played anything but Halo. The only real question is if you're lucky enough to learn the secret handshake or not. Beyond that, there's no skill at all.

Real pros don't need secret mechanics to beat newbies.

Not really saying that glitching is a PRO playstyle i just used it to state that experience brings knowledge.

If you know the map, the game the mechanics you also know a few advantages, it does not mean that you are pro but that you have an edge.

Newbies have their name because they are new to the game, the do not know every corner and all the stuff they eventually will learn. If they are good mannerd people will probably show it to them early so they also know about it.

Yeah you can teach your 12 year old cousin in a second, so can everyone else but its still something that sticks "deeper" into the game. (so you have to play or be nice/know people to learn it)

You are referring completely to the game UBI made and the things the did intend or not, as i have understood it this is project is all about taking out the bad things and putting in the things we liked, not making a bluecopy of what UBI once made.

These glitches are not a must for me at all, but i thought tiny stuff like that made the game somewhat deeper.

afaik emf ghosting gets much stronger with higher fps. some people are too good with emf, and i bet that they couldn't do the same with 32Hz and 1280*1024.
emf ghosting should be harder to do in medium distances, so you have to actually suspect the spy to be there and zoom or get closer. but it's no glitch at all, it's more a balance question.

i'm not so sure about the landing glitch, it's only of concern in a few areas. on the one hand, i hate the ridiculous heights one can jump nearly unharmed AND do the vision glitch, on the other hand, the spies need much agility especially vertically.

the silent "speedrolling" is ok for me, as it allows quicker stealth and spies performing it can easily be sniped/naded because the movement is kinda predictable.

triple nading is kinda stupid, and it seems kinda lame the first time one encounters it. but it's really kinda weak so it can stay.

all other glitches should stay out of ps.

You don't need two people to practice crouch/roll/crouch. Furthermore, how do you know that the developers didn't intend for PC players to be able to do that? You're assuming that's the case because you can't do it on Xbox, and I already pointed out the fallacy in that argument. There already IS an indicator if the spy makes noise on the merc's reticle in SCCT, and Kebab is going to add a visual indicator on top of that for PS. What more do you want? A big voice telling you "OMFG YOU MADE NOISE ON THE RETICLE! HIDE!"

Expecting every single tiny game mechanic to be explained in a tutorial is just dumb. There's something called playing the game and finding shit out as you go, like most other games. I equate the vision glitch to the reload glitch that everyone uses while awping in CS. It's a glitch, but it's really minor and has become a staple of SvM gameplay.

EMF ghosting is somewhat dependent on framerate (a higher FPS makes all those hexagons flash quicker which gives the illusion of a more stable image), but it's mostly based on skill of the user to see it. If you can't see EMF ghosts when someone is directly in front of you, you probably have your monitor calibrated incorrectly. You can use http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html (http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html) to calibrate your CRT monitor. Although I will say I find the "correct" settings too dark for games, so I have a profile in my drivers for "games" which brightens the screen a bit. You won't ever be able to get it right if you have an older LCD monitor.

You will never, ever, ever be able to ensure graphical equality in a PC game. If you don't like that graphical inequality exists, then stick to consoles. People with better hardware will always have an advantage, be it through graphics settings or framerate.

Or just make a hard-lock in the core of the game for everyone to play @ 800x600 and 32Hz.

Quote from: Spekkio on August 10, 2007, 07:43:32 PM
You don't need two people to practice crouch/roll/crouch. Furthermore, how do you know that the developers didn't intend for PC players to be able to do that? You're assuming that's the case because you can't do it on Xbox, and I already pointed out the fallacy in that argument. There already IS an indicator if the spy makes noise on the merc's reticle in SCCT, and Kebab is going to add a visual indicator on top of that for PS. What more do you want? A big voice telling you "OMFG YOU MADE NOISE ON THE RETICLE! HIDE!"

A visual indicator would be fine. And really I haven't seen any indicator in SCCT right now that tells you if you're pinging the merc's reticule, unless it's very subtle. And I've been playing since PT came out. 

If such a thing exists, then it's so well hidden as to be exactly the kind of hidden mechanics I'm speaking about avoiding.

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Expecting every single tiny game mechanic to be explained in a tutorial is just dumb. There's something called playing the game and finding shit out as you go, like most other games. I equate the vision glitch to the reload glitch that everyone uses while awping in CS. It's a glitch, but it's really minor and has become a staple of SvM gameplay.

Well no. Things like triple nading are fine to let people just discover, because they actually make sense. They use existing mechanics you know, like switching weapons, and use them in a different way, in a logical manner.

Switching vision when you drop isn't a mechanic that makes any sense. It's not really part of the game in any sense and there's no logical reason why switching vision shouldmake you recover faster. It's a glitch that requires little skill and whose whole difficulty is figuring out using a random unrelated keypress that happens to produce some beneficial effect. This isn't about skill or logical thinking, it's a secret move that you only find out when someone else is nice enough to let you in on the club and teach you the secret handshake.

You can have a complex tactical game without secret handshakes.

All they do is promote less competition and more newbies. I don't even want to point out to you how many people didn't know how to use the sound detector in the game. Some people still don't. And it's sad. But that's what happens when you put in secret unexplained mechanics and say "Bah, just let em figure it out in play."

Not surprisingly, people can go months or years without ever figuring out a hidden mechanic.

While you dont' have to explain every little thing in the tutorial, they need to be things people can find out on their own with some reasoning. For instance, you show them how to jump and how to place mines, you can assume they can figure out how to put mines on higher places by jumping onto objects. There is no logical reason to assume anyone will figure out the vision glitch on their own, ever.

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You will never, ever, ever be able to ensure graphical equality in a PC game. If you don't like that graphical inequality exists, then stick to consoles. People with better hardware will always have an advantage, be it through graphics settings or framerate.

No, you can't get perfect equality, but you do need to try to get things as equal as you can in a game of this type. It's possible to cap resolution, and while you can't do anything to framerate, it's possible to play with the graphics to try to get them looking about the same.

About little things: I never knew that when you point your Merc crosshair at the other Merc and it shows some heart-beat thingy, it meant that he was Spy Bulleted. I usually just ran up to him and checked if the option to remove would pop up.

The indicator for when a spy makes noise has been mentioned many times on this forum: if you make a noise that will ping the merc's reticle, you hear the same soft "beep" that they do. It's not subtle at all since it's clearly audible.

Explaining how the sound reticle works and explaining the finer points of gameplay are two different things. Knowing how the reticle functions is basic knowledge and needs to be explained, especially since such an equipment gadget doesn't appear in any other type of game. Furthermore, the tutorial should include a line that "the mercs can hear any and all sound effects that you hear when you perform actions, such as taking your gun out, grunting, and rolling on surfaces."

Furthermore, some "hidden mechanics" show up post-development. It's impossible to test for everything and include it in the tutorial. It's possible that Ubi testers didn't find or know about the vision glitch until after release when hundreds of users start to put in hundreds of hours playing the game. So again, including the basics is enough. If a "hidden glitch" like vision switching shows up, I would hope it gets patched out rather than explained in a tutorial.

Limiting resolution is a dumb idea, if it's even possible to do in a mod.

why would we limit the resolution? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Cuz invisible doesn't want people gaining an advantage due to hardware, not realizing that the UT3 engine by itself is going to strain anything but the newest hardware. Smooth framerate is a bigger advantage than any subtle graphics difference you can make.

afaik, UT3 will run on my gf 5200, so when i get my gf 6800 back i should be okay.
And one more, how much does the game data take in this moment? like 500 megs or what?

Spekkio is right, Spies hear a very noticeable beep when they make a sound that has appeared on a Merc's reticle.  I believe both Spies hear it if only one of them makes the sound, but I could be wrong on that.

As for special mechanics that need to be learned.  I can see both sides of the argument.  I agree that not everything should be taught in the tutorials.  Many things can be considered advanced techniques that you have to learn by playing, and I think people will understand that and hopefully pay attention enough to learn them as they play.  As for secret things like the vision glitch, I honestly wouldn't mind if it were removed.  As was stated by Invisible, it really makes no sense that changing your vision while landing can help you recovery quicker from a hard landing.  It is definitely a glitch, and should not be included in PS.  But, things like triple nading should stay, as that is what I would consider an "advanced technique."  Look at it this way, in the original Tribes people invented what is known as "skiing."  To skii in Tribes you had to use the jump button as you were going down slopes to skip along the mountains and pick up more speed.  This was not intended as a feature, but it became so popular and so widely used that it is actually one of the things Tribes is known for.  As a result, skiing was actually supported by the developers in Tribes 2, and they even made it a bit more forgiving (though still difficult to master).

I see nothing wrong with advanced techniques that newbies need to spend time to learn and master.

Yes, it is a glitch.  But it is glitches that require timing, time put into the game, noticing little things, and not being told about it in a tutorial that gives people who play the game the most the little advantages they deserve.  I think that the vision glitch should be change into a roll right when you hit.  If you hold down forward and crouch right when you hit the ground then it should be a little rolling animation to recover from big falls.  It shouldn't be taught in the tutorial, but it should be learned by players as they go.

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 11, 2007, 02:32:28 AM
Yes, it is a glitch.  But it is glitches that require timing, time put into the game, noticing little things, and not being told about it in a tutorial that gives people who play the game the most the little advantages they deserve.  I think that the vision glitch should be change into a roll right when you hit.  If you hold down forward and crouch right when you hit the ground then it should be a little rolling animation to recover from big falls.  It shouldn't be taught in the tutorial, but it should be learned by players as they go.

The only advantage people who play the game most deserve is experiance

Quote from: Spekkio on August 10, 2007, 09:55:49 PM
The indicator for when a spy makes noise has been mentioned many times on this forum: if you make a noise that will ping the merc's reticle, you hear the same soft "beep" that they do. It's not subtle at all since it's clearly audible.

Honestly, I've never heard it as spy on xbox or PC. It might be an EAX thing, I don't know. The merc reticule ping is easily audible, but I've never heard it from the spy side. Then again, I don't really run around much.

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Explaining how the sound reticle works and explaining the finer points of gameplay are two different things. Knowing how the reticle functions is basic knowledge and needs to be explained, especially since such an equipment gadget doesn't appear in any other type of game. Furthermore, the tutorial should include a line that "the mercs can hear any and all sound effects that you hear when you perform actions, such as taking your gun out, grunting, and rolling on surfaces."

Well, there's a difference between advanced tactics and glitches. Putting a mine on a high up spot by jumping is an advanced tactic. Shocking someone to take off MT then flash banging is an advanced tactic. In all cases these involve combining two basic mechanics that you already know and using them in a creative way. People can't really cry foul about that sort of stuff. You knew what jump did, and you know how to place mines, so if you didn't put mines up in high spots by jumping on objects, that's your fault for not thinking to do it.

On the other hand, a hidden mechanic is one that can't be logically arrived at. It's a new secondary function that you had no idea existed. And that stuff, if it exists at all, has to be covered in a tutorial.

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Furthermore, some "hidden mechanics" show up post-development. It's impossible to test for everything and include it in the tutorial. It's possible that Ubi testers didn't find or know about the vision glitch until after release when hundreds of users start to put in hundreds of hours playing the game. So again, including the basics is enough. If a "hidden glitch" like vision switching shows up, I would hope it gets patched out rather than explained in a tutorial.

Yeah, I agree. Which is why I'm vehemently opposed to porting the vision glitch simply because it was in CT. It should just be patched out entirely.

And I would hope that any glitches discovered in the testing of PS get patched out or properly assimilated into the tutorial as well.

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Limiting resolution is a dumb idea, if it's even possible to do in a mod.

Well I was thinking we should do that only for the visions where seeing things is supposed to be problematic, namely MT and EMF. Normal vision can have whatever resolution people want within reason I suppose.

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 11, 2007, 02:32:28 AM
I think that the vision glitch should be change into a roll right when you hit.

NO! Autoroll is one of the worst features in this game. I can honestly say that in my 3+ years of playing SvM, I have NEVER once said "well gee, thank god for autoroll or else I might've died there!"

QuoteHonestly, I've never heard it as spy on xbox or PC. It might be an EAX thing, I don't know. The merc reticule ping is easily audible, but I've never heard it from the spy side. Then again, I don't really run around much.

It's not EAX related. Pay closer attention. I can't speak for sure if it's on the XBox version, but it is very clearly noticeable on the PC whether or not you're using EAX.

QuoteOn the other hand, a hidden mechanic is one that can't be logically arrived at. It's a new secondary function that you had no idea existed. And that stuff, if it exists at all, has to be covered in a tutorial.

Like I said, it's likely that said secondary functions don't pop up until post development.

For example, crouch/roll/crouch has a primary use in diving through lasers or making a quick getaway when you were caught while crouching. Its secondary function of being able to move more quickly while not pinging the merc's reticle was discovered later.

Quote from: Spekkio on August 11, 2007, 07:39:59 PM
Like I said, it's likely that said secondary functions don't pop up until post development.

For example, crouch/roll/crouch has a primary use in diving through lasers or making a quick getaway when you were caught while crouching. Its secondary function of being able to move more quickly while not pinging the merc's reticle was discovered later.

Yeah, there's no way we can know about everything. But I'm just saying that the problems need to be patched or assimilated into the game (and thus the tutorial), instead of just remaining secrets like they did in CT.

Quote from: Spekkio on August 10, 2007, 11:45:29 PM
Cuz invisible doesn't want people gaining an advantage due to hardware, not realizing that the UT3 engine by itself is going to strain anything but the newest hardware. Smooth framerate is a bigger advantage than any subtle graphics difference you can make.

This is something thats easy to fix.
There is currently a Thief mod for the first Unreal Tournament named Thievery UT that uses a system that the more the thief players move into darkness, the more transparant (and in total darkness eventualy invisible) they become, ive played the mod several times and i have to say i love it, also you can with this feature easily implent a light meter and the mercs wont be able to see the silhouette's of spies sitting in total darkness wile there is a lamp at the end of the hallway giving away theyre position.
The website can be found here: www.thieveryut.com (http://www.thieveryut.com) and theyre going to try and port it to UT3 when it releases:
http://www.night-blade.com/ (http://www.night-blade.com/)

Though this is a smart fix, it might look a bit ugly for the spy player to suddenly see his spy disapear, though maybe it is possible for the spy player not to let his spy turn transparant wile the mercs do see it that way.

making the spy truly invisible is a lame hack.  It just destroys the credibility of hiding in the shadows.

If you are in a shadow,  but the wall behind you is completely lit...you SHOULD be visible in profile as completely black.

Quote from: HawK
This is something thats easy impossible to fix...

Your suggestion doesn't even touch the subject on how to ensure everyone has the same framerate.

Quote from: goodkebab on August 15, 2007, 04:53:33 PM
making the spy truly invisible is a lame hack.  It just destroys the credibility of hiding in the shadows.

If you are in a shadow,  but the wall behind you is completely lit...you SHOULD be visible in profile as completely black.

Yeah, I don't like the invisibility either.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on August 15, 2007, 08:34:39 PM

Quote from: goodkebab on August 15, 2007, 04:53:33 PM
making the spy truly invisible is a lame hack.  It just destroys the credibility of hiding in the shadows.

If you are in a shadow,  but the wall behind you is completely lit...you SHOULD be visible in profile as completely black.

Yeah, I don't like the invisibility either.

lol but your name is invisible man haha  :D

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 16, 2007, 12:09:12 AM

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on August 15, 2007, 08:34:39 PM

Quote from: goodkebab on August 15, 2007, 04:53:33 PM
making the spy truly invisible is a lame hack.  It just destroys the credibility of hiding in the shadows.

If you are in a shadow,  but the wall behind you is completely lit...you SHOULD be visible in profile as completely black.

Yeah, I don't like the invisibility either.

lol but your name is invisible man haha  :D

FFS

What about insta-nades? Surely you have noticed how some people have started shooting instas like 50% of the time (they fire them in a certain arc, try shooting frags about 7 meters in front of you) and this can seriously cripple aggro. Either way, it takes some skill to do (though i'm not saying all instas occur like that).

No doubt we won't be seeing instas in PS, but I wanted to know what people think about this "skill".

it's no skill it's totally random.

It is random, one time I ended up getting 3 insta nades in a row.  The little faggot host went back to the lobby and booted me for cheating, of course it was totally lucky, but the little baby couldn't take it.  ::)  Sometimes I won't get an insta-nade in a couple games, then I will get a couple all of a sudden.  AFAIK there is no way to force an insta-nade on console, but I know they are more common when you shoot them at corners of walls or objects.

plz stfu with console stuff, get the game for pc and play several hundred hours with some vets to get some experience.

FUCK YOU, I just reinforced what you said and you told me to shut the fuck up?  Insta nades DO happen on console, and insta nades DO happen on PC.  How about you get the game for console, play several hundred hours with some vets to get some experience.  That is total bullshit that you have to play on PC to be a veteran.  I am sure you are a total noob at console version, I am a total noob at PC version, that is obvious.  It is the same game with different controls, chat abilities, and a map editor.  Just because PS is coming out for PC doesn't mean you are veteran because you play PC and I don't.  Can someone tell me why the PC version is the better of the two versions other than the community console has?  Please, tell me why it soo much more 1337 to play PC instead of console.  An explanation would be nice.  Why is pointing and clicking take soo much more skill than an analog stick?  I would like to see a PC player weild an analog stick who has never used one before. Fuck off Gawain.

I understand this is a PC veteran community, but please, stop treating me like dogshit because I am a veteran of a different version, but the SAME GAME.  The game has the same problems, same glitches, same bugs.  Maybe each version has its own glitches, but a lot of the glitches are on both versions: Vision change, insta-nades, etc...

Well on PC the controls are more 'controlable', so you can do HUGE combos of moves. So unlike the console version, you can switch visions, while doing the stand-crouch move, changing movement speed and moving around. Also at the same time you can drop the nades you have at the primary slots.
I really don't think it is possible to do all this stuff at once on a console.

i don't think that competitive online gaming on a console can get anywhere close the pc skill level. the stuff you wrote about aqua says everything on you skill level anyways...

You can drop grenades at your feet when they are at your primary slots while rolling, changing visions, crouching.  You can do everything you just listed on console.  Do you PC players know anything about console?  You shouldn't be saying that it is more advanced if you don't know what you can do on console.  I am not saying console is better by any means, I am asking why console vets get kicked to the curb because  they aren't playing the pc version.  I am almost at the pinnacle of how good console players can even be on CT, I will admit PC players can be more skilled than console players at CT.  But the reason because of that is that console players aren't able to use the same little tricks as you PC players.  It is impossible to do the crouch roll crouch on a console, it is totally impossible.  But because we can't do the little tricks it is harder for us to do good anyways, so yes, it is more of a challenge on console ( when you aren't playing with noobs ).

I always hear talk of PC players with easier controls, or abilities to do big combos, shouldn't that mean that it is easier to play CT on PC?  With console controls being harder or less capable, shouldn't that mean that they have to have more skill to even maneouver or even do little tricks to succeed?  I would absolutely love to see a PC player have a go at the xbox controls and be able to succeed, because I would suck at the PC controls and I wouldn't be able to succeed.  And yes, I do need to work on my PC control skill because of PS only coming to PC.  You would all need to work on your xbox controller skills if it were only coming to xbox.  And yes, I agree with you about online gaming being not as good on PC, but that is only because we have a lot of noobs on console because a lot of children get consoles and not big expensive PC's for christmas/birthdays/etc...

Quote from: Gawain on August 27, 2007, 12:36:46 AM
i don't think that competitive online gaming on a console can get anywhere close the pc skill level. the stuff you wrote about aqua says everything on you skill level anyways...

I don't think a PC player could get anywhere close to console skill level, and quite possibly a console player not getting as good on PC as well.

Quote from: Gawain on August 27, 2007, 12:36:46 AM
i don't think that competitive online gaming on a console can get anywhere close the pc skill level.

Wrong.

Yes, PC controls are more fluid and easier, this much is true. But it doesn't mean that you're a better player because you use a mouse instead of an xbox controller. I've seen my share of newbies on xbox and PC, so it's not like people are worse because of the medium you choose to play on. There are some quality xbox players. Their videos won't look as impressive as a PC video because the controllers are less precise, but this doesn't mean that they're any less skilled. It just means that they're playing a different style of game. It's much like bringing a rifle to an archery contest and saying that you're more skilled because of it.

Believe me, there are people out there who do nothing but play console FPS games and they get damn good. Until you can pick up an xbox controller and own some of the better players, you really have no right saying that PC players are "more skilled".

((Disclaimer: while I am defending console players in general, I don't defend anything Papa Skull said specifically. His tactics on aqua were very newb IMO))

that's the point rofl. the controls are the very basics to every game; they should be intuitive and stay in the background. it's like making moving the pieces in chess very hard, just toal bs. you can't focus on advanced tactics if you have to be bothered by bad controls all the time. sure, it takes some micro to hit anything with a controller. but playing the game in handstand won't make it any better...

just a note that on a console you can't bind a series of functions to one key. (the way i do triple nades)
Also even without this, you have like 20-25 keys to control your character on a pc, while you have about 15 on a pad. also you have the mouse on pc.
That means that the console players will be able to pull off the advanced tricks, but it will be harder for them, while the PC players will do them easier.

So, having a game that is easier makes it better?  I am not saying that either version is better, I am saying that each version is the same game.  Just the way that people play them is different.  Being different doesn't make you better.  Try playing CT on the console, if you haven't ever used an analog stick before then you will fail big time, BIG TIME.  Same as me trying to use all of those keys and the mouse to play, I would fail big time.  Once you are used to the controls, they are relatively easy.  You don't have to think about pushing a button to do it or even worry about what buttons to push in a certain order to pull them off.  You just think they are bad controls because  you aren't used to them, plain and fucking simple.  To me, having over 20 keys sounds too advanced and don't really stay in the background, but that is just because I am not used to them.

You probably have never seen something like this before but one time I let my dad play my xbox.  He used to be a big Doom fan and he played FPS games on PC.  He knew how to use PC controls to control games like that ( somewhat like merc controls basically )  I gave him the controller with analog sticks, go figure, and you should have seen him.  He could barely do anything, at all.  Analog sticks are a pain in the ass if you have never used them, something about him moving his thumbs all the time was his problem.  It is just whatever you are used to.  Anywho, I don't believe any version is better because they are almost the same game with little different features for each version.

But somehow I keep getting pushed aside, although I play the same game, for having " harder " controls.  If this was mostly a console community you would not see me telling some guy who played PC to shut the fuck up for saying something.

BTW wouldn't it mean you are a noob and it is more of a challenge for console players?  The fact that you can string together controls is ridiculous.  It is wayy harder for console players to pull off triple nades, PC players have it at the press of a button.  So, if I had all of these glorious controls wouldn't it make me a lot more deadly on PC?  Don't call me a noob when you are stringing together chaff smoke and flash by pushing the "G" button.  Go buy a xbox and CT, then call me a noob.

Quote from: Gawain on August 27, 2007, 02:28:17 AM
that's the point rofl. the controls are the very basics to every game; they should be intuitive and stay in the background. it's like making moving the pieces in chess very hard, just toal bs. you can't focus on advanced tactics if you have to be bothered by bad controls all the time. sure, it takes some micro to hit anything with a controller. but playing the game in handstand won't make it any better...

While the controls have an impact on the game, a big one in fact, they have nothing to do with player skill.

You can be a good player with an xbox controller or a good player with a mouse and keyboard.

However, control style doesn't make a game less tactical regardless, it just means you have to adapt. Some tactics that would work fine on PC don't work on xbox, other tactics that don't work on PC work well on xbox. Believe me, there's just as much teamwork on xbox as there is in the PC version. You've got headsets, you can plan and strategize every bit as much. In fact, I tend to feel like the game has a bit more strategic value on xbox, mostly because EAX and graphics settings aren't out of control, so there's less of a need to go into aggro mode when you can sneak past people.

I'm not really sure how you equate control style with making a statement of overall player skill. That line of thinking doesn't even make any sense.

papa skull, you are indeed a n00b. i don't give a shit about different controls, and sure there are some good scct console players out there (i guess invisible is one of them). sorry, but everything you say smells like n00b. you didn't even understand my last post and just spam another long post with no new statement (besides that your father rulez).
kokafan: you are a big n00b, too. i know this for sure, because i played you some games. additionally, you lagg like shit. but at least, you don't post shit all the time. oh and regarding triple nading: it's totally overrated, you have to give up sticky cams or a surveilance gadget for it, and playing with scripts comes close to cheating fucktard.

invisible: is the balance better on xbox? the xbox version already has some of the fixes i wanna see for ps like normal post render, better camosuit (because of lower res; i heard about the green thing on xbox360 though), no eax superhearing, etc

2 notes @ Gawain.
1: Yea maybe i lag, but you played only once with me.
2: Maybe using scripts is cheating but at least i don't insult anyone here.

And on the other hand, the spies on PC have a much harder time, mainly because the controls favor the mercs more.

Quote from: Kok4f4n on August 27, 2007, 01:43:32 PM
2 notes @ Gawain.
1: Yea maybe i lag, but you played only once with me.
2: Maybe using scripts is cheating but at least i don't insult anyone here.

And on the other hand, the spies on PC have a much harder time, mainly because the controls favor the mercs more.

not maybe. and not only once (i play with smurf most of the time). and insulting cheaters and n00bs is not a bad thing.

So you say that the fact that they suck in the game means that they are worst than you are?
Also the one thing is that YOU was lagging then not me. It wasn't lagging, for me at least. Afaik you're not helping the community grow by insulting newbies, while you should be explaining them what they did wrong (well that's what i understand by 'helping the community').
btw - please come to scl if you want to turn it into a flamewar, since this forum should be used for development purposes.

i guess you always play with big lagg then ::)
the probem is that i don't care about the opinion of noobs and hopefully so do the developers, as this project is clearly addressed to the vets of scct pc versus mode.

Quote from: Gawain on August 27, 2007, 12:13:00 PM
invisible: is the balance better on xbox? the xbox version already has some of the fixes i wanna see for ps like normal post render, better camosuit (because of lower res; i heard about the green thing on xbox360 though), no eax superhearing, etc

I certainly think so.

PT was horrible balance wise for xbox (you literally could not stop an aggro spy at all), but CT is pretty nice.

Yeah, it's true camo got screwed up by the green outline on the 360, which sorta ruined that gadget to the point of being useless. Before then though, the camosuit was a great gadget.

Even ignoring that, stealth is a lot better for a few reasons.

First, the lower resolution generally makes MT a bit weaker. EMF ghosting is still barely possible but very hard to do, so it's not a balance issue. MT is still awesome, it's just not three shades of awesome like it is on PC.

The second thing is that mercs turn and move slower. This means that it takes a while for a merc to sweep a room, giving you more ample time to hide. Youre looking at a difference in only a second or so, but those seconds add up and mercs can't afford to check the corners all the time.

EAX is gone, which is good. Everyone is hearing stuff the same.

Also mercs tend to aim slower, so you've got a bit more time to react as a spy. This especially tends to weaken sniping. You generally will not see people using snipers in normal combat like some experts do in PC. Sniping is generally good for shooting long range or getting a stationary spy, like one hacking, but altogether it's a bit weaker. Merc accuracy is down in general, which tends to mean that the uzi and rifle lose a little, while the shotgun is more or less the same. The uzi doesn't really seem to cause all that much lag on xbox, at least not to the degree that PC players seemed so vehemently opposed to it, but then, I never really thought it was a problem on PC either.


As far as aggro goes, it's actually slightly better on xbox, becuase the mercs have a bit less control, and are somewhat slower with their gas masks. Still though, you can generally beat an aggro spy even on the box if you get your controls down, but it certainly takes a bit more practice than it does on PC.

Also, gas mask is essential on xbox. THe only real feature that I hate on xbox is the fact that you can't quick-turn while smoked. For those of you who don't know, a quick-turn is a special xbox move where you turn 180 degrees fast as a merc. This is generally essential in stopping aggro. In fact, one thing that made pandora almost impossible on the box was that without a gas mask, getting smoked generally meant you were dead. You had one option when you were smoked: charge + jump + quick turn. If you couldn't pull that off for whatever reason (like an obstacle in your way), then you got grabbed. CT was much better in that regard, but it still made gas mask absolutely essential against an aggro spy. 

Side grabs also still exist in xbox, as do some of the other basic glitches (instanades, funny punching, host uzi, host grab, etc.)

Overall it feels like you've got a better shot as spy, especially while trying to be stealthy. 

quite interesting post.
gas mask is crucial in the pc version, too. not so much because of smoke nades, but because of sticky cams.

Quote from: Gawain on August 27, 2007, 11:20:39 PM
quite interesting post.
gas mask is crucial in the pc version, too. not so much because of smoke nades, but because of sticky cams.

Yeah, gas mask is very important on PC too, but basically on xbox you multiply that importance x2 when facing a good aggro spy. I mean pandora on xbox didn't even allow SS+DJ, and it was still a pro-spy game, just because smokes were unbeatable.

Gawain, fuck off.  You have never seen me play.  Get an xbox, get CT.  Call me a noob then.  I am a noob to PC version you fucking idiot, you know why?  I have never played it!

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 29, 2007, 01:08:21 AM
Gawain, fuck off.  You have never seen me play.  Get an xbox, get CT.  Call me a noob then.  I am a noob to PC version you fucking idiot, you know why?  I have never played it!

rofllol...getting a xbox XD
the point is, you are probably a n00b not because of different controls, but because of a general lack of understanding the gameplay at competitive level.
still waiting for your aqua stealth vid... ;D

My xbox is currently at M$ getting repairs, it wouldn't read any discs including CT.  It will be another week or so until it comes back fixed or a new one comes.  Yes, the vid will come.

The gameplay level isn't as high on console because it doesn't have all of those extra little perks and easier controls.  It is MUCH more of a challenge according to a bunch of you PC players.  I would love to see you try to pull off a triple nade with one button on a console. ROFL  :D

The reason I can't get as good as PC players is because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so on a console, no fuckind duH!  I can't pull off a triple nade with one button, I have to push a series of buttons to pull it off and I have to push them FAST.  You just push one key such as the "G" key or the "S" key.

Do you fucking get me now!?  I understand that PC players are smoother players, it does not mean they are smoother players on a console douche bag.  I understand that you guys can roll through lasers without making a noise, I completely understand that.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO THAT ON XBOX?!  Therefore we have to change our style of gameplay A LOT to succeed.

it makes going stealth on aqua even harder. relly looking forward to seeing you twitting some console kids in greek ^^

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 29, 2007, 02:36:16 AM

Do you fucking get me now!?  I understand that PC players are smoother players, it does not mean they are smoother players on a console douche bag.  I understand that you guys can roll through lasers without making a noise, I completely understand that.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO THAT ON XBOX?!  Therefore we have to change our style of gameplay A LOT to succeed.

Realyl though, the gameplay isn't all that different, and if anything, spies have it tougher on PC.

Believe me, the ability to roll silently with a trick is nothing compared to the extra benefits mercs are getting with EAX and Super resolution MT. If you are for instance in the vent going to greek in aqua and pull out your gun (w/o laser), a merc with EAX can actually hear you in there pull out your gun. He can also hear you roll in the vent as well. Turn on camo, he hears that too. Pretty much if it makes an audible sound for the spy, the PC merc with EAX will hear it. He may not know the direction as precisely as with the sound detector, but if he's good enough he can make a good guess.

The merc/spy balance is much farther slanted in favor of the merc when you play the PC version.

Exactly, PC players have a lot of advantages on BOTH spy and merc.  Xbox players have a LOT less advantages/tricks/easy controls/one button triple nades (  ::) )  So what Gawain?  What exactly is your point?  It is impossible to do all the things that PC players can do, so how exactly could I not be a n00b by PC standards?  Everyone who plays console is a noob by PC standards.  But, by console standards, I am NOT a noob.

Hey Gawain, you're a noob.  A noob to console, just like I am a noob TO PC.  But by no means are we noobs to Chaos Theory, we are just noobs to the other version.

I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.

I am not saying either version is better, I am saying that they are different.  People shouldn't call people noobs or say they suck based on their version's criterias or abilities.

Quote from: Spekkio on August 29, 2007, 05:06:54 AM
I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.

Seriously, MT is the magic ability. Go back to the MT thread when I asked "how do you sneak by a merc using MT?" and the response I got was basically: "shock the merc and run" or "large open rooms are unbalanced."

In other words, you can't stealth past him, the magic grey box will catch you every time. Your only shot is to stun him for awhile and run like hell. It's not like I'm the only one saying that MT is all-powerful, it's just that I'm one of the few who actually seems to care. A lot of people seem to have the view that God-vision is just part of the game and you have to suck it up by aggroing the merc instead of sneaking past undetected, because there is no way not to get detected. The best you can hope for is to shock him and make a break for it. Maybe you get to a hiding spot without triggering a proxy and blowing yourself to hell or maybe not, either way, the merc will have a nice idea of where to look once he gets unstunned.

Maybe it isn't large rooms that are unbalanced but rather just MT?

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on August 29, 2007, 05:54:44 AM

Quote from: Spekkio on August 29, 2007, 05:06:54 AM
I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.

Seriously, MT is the magic ability. Go back to the MT thread when I asked "how do you sneak by a merc using MT?" and the response I got was basically: "shock the merc and run" or "large open rooms are unbalanced."

In other words, you can't stealth past him, the magic grey box will catch you every time. Your only shot is to stun him for awhile and run like hell. It's not like I'm the only one saying that MT is all-powerful, it's just that I'm one of the few who actually seems to care. A lot of people seem to have the view that God-vision is just part of the game and you have to suck it up by aggroing the merc instead of sneaking past undetected, because there is no way not to get detected. The best you can hope for is to shock him and make a break for it. Maybe you get to a hiding spot without triggering a proxy and blowing yourself to hell or maybe not, either way, the merc will have a nice idea of where to look once he gets unstunned.

Maybe it isn't large rooms that are unbalanced but rather just MT?



You can sneak around a room if the merc has MT on....adapt

MT is powerful, maybe a bit too over powered.  Even so, it is still possible to sneak around a room without triggering it.  Like westfall said: "adapt".  I do think it should be dummed down a little bit however, it is just pretty much God Vision.

I usually don't even move a single muscle when I see a red visor, and when I do it is either because he has his head turned or I am behind cover.

Quote from: Westfall-US on August 29, 2007, 07:38:14 AM
You can sneak around a room if the merc has MT on....adapt

This is what I keep hearing, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean by adapting. Believe me, I've been trying, for years.

There are a few strategies:

Camo up and try to slow crawl: Merc hears camo on EAX, switches to EMF and blows the hell out of your slow crawling ass.

Sneak by slow crawling (no camo): merc sees you in MT night vision and blows the hell out of your slow crawling ass.

Try to cross on a normal crouch: MT lights up and you're boxed a second or two after breaking cover. Merc proceeds to blow the hell out of you.

Try to cross on full run: MT lights up and you're boxed a second or two after breaking cover. You may survive, but your stealth element is now gone.

Seriously... I mean what kinds of things do you even do against MT? I'd like to see a video that involves someone actually stealthing past MT (and not by some aggro or passive-agressive style, I'm talking full stealth, one spy sneaking past one merc).

The things I do for sneaking past MT whoring mercs:

1.  Use cover. If you are fully covered by an object like say a box, then it will have no use and it won't detect you.  This is the main strategy.

2.  Break the line of sight between you and the merc.  Get high or get low, meaning a good 25 ft above or below the mercs line of sight. 

3.  Only move when the merc turns his head completely.  Meaning wait until he looks away then move from cover to cover ( box to box for example )

4.  Always slow crouch.  True it detects you when you slow crouch, but at times when you are far enough away or not quite in his FOV you should slow crouch.

5.  Have a partner at a different position fire some kind of grenade towards your position.  Chances are that the merc will look toward the direction the grenade came from and turn away from you.

6.  Wait for the merc to leave and don't move at all.   :-\

Those solutions don't always work but they are really the only solutions imo.

papa skull, i'm pretty sure invisibleman999 would kick your but on console. being n00b/pro has nothing to do with the platform one is playing on. my intention is not to insult you, but you really need way more ingame experience with good players to have an opinion on the current gameplay/balancing.
ps: if you want to play ps, you need to get used to pc controls anyway, so why don't you start right now?

QuoteSeriously, MT is the magic ability. Go back to the MT thread when I asked "how do you sneak by a merc using MT?" and the response I got was basically: "shock the merc and run" or "large open rooms are unbalanced."

-Creep by when he's looking in another direction
-"Leap frog:" One guy shocks, the other guy moves forward. Repeat as necessary.
-Headshot with SS
-Shock + chaff + flash
-Stick to cover. There's plenty of it.
-Wait for the merc to leave. If he's not going to leave, go to the open objective instead (every map has more objectives to complete than mercs guarding them).
-Do nothing to the merc and dive to the next section of the map. Most maps are designed in a way that when you pass a particular bottleneck, you have access to multiple places. Sure, the merc will see you enter the vent, but he won't know where you're going from there (for example, even if a merc sees you go under the floor in Club House, he won't know where you plan on hitting next since you could go into Steam, Jacuzzi, Garden 1, or Lunch).
-Bait him into chasing you and have your partner grab him
-Bait him into a pre-placed cam

Now if those solutions are all unsatisfactory to you because it doesn't conform to your idea of how you ought to be able to bypass MT, then I don't know what else to tell you.

MT is a little too strong because of its NV capability and infinite range (both of which can be taken care of with normal post render and some modification to the range of the box), but it's nowhere near as bad as you guys are making it out to be. Please resume discussion on how MT nukes spies anytime they step into the map.

ADDED: I was gonna link you to seefoo's dl page since he has a bunch of videos that showcase how to stealth past mercs, but he took almost all of them down. Didn't scorpion or someone make a video site?

Quote from: Spekkio on August 29, 2007, 07:05:43 PM
MT is a little too strong because of its NV capability and infinite range (both of which can be taken care of with normal post render and some modification to the range of the box), but it's nowhere near as bad as you guys are making it out to be.

Maybe this was what he was talking about and the combination of all these things (not just the 360 detection) are what he hates.

Quote from: Gawain on August 29, 2007, 01:14:51 PM
papa skull, i'm pretty sure invisibleman999 would kick your but on console. being n00b/pro has nothing to do with the platform one is playing on. my intention is not to insult you, but you really need way more ingame experience with good players to have an opinion on the current gameplay/balancing.
ps: if you want to play ps, you need to get used to pc controls anyway, so why don't you start right now?

Good luck with that, he doesn't even know how to counter MT. 

And since you say that PC controls are easier, it shouldn't be that hard for me to learn them.  Being noob/pro has A LOT to do with what platform someone is playing on.  Being that I am pro on console, you are pro at PC, you are noob at console, I am noob to PC.  So I really don't understand what you are saying by console doesn't matter, because if it didn't I would be pro at console and PC, and you would be as well.

I haven't played with some  pro players in a long time tbh.  But when I did they were in basically every match I played, now there are few pro players who still play CT every once in a while.  However this does not mean I am noob, and it doesn't mean I don't have experience with good console players.

get scct for pc (i can even give u a friend's key), grab a mate and play me.

1. I am a noob to PC version ( I have never played it before go figure )
2. I am not sure if my PC can handle CT at this point.
3. When I do get CT for PC and I master the controls, I will play ya.
4. I don't have any "mates" that play PC CT, not even that much that play console CT.

Quote from: Spekkio on August 29, 2007, 07:05:43 PM
-Creep by when he's looking in another direction
-"Leap frog:" One guy shocks, the other guy moves forward. Repeat as necessary.
-Headshot with SS
-Shock + chaff + flash
-Stick to cover. There's plenty of it.
-Wait for the merc to leave. If he's not going to leave, go to the open objective instead (every map has more objectives to complete than mercs guarding them).
-Do nothing to the merc and dive to the next section of the map. Most maps are designed in a way that when you pass a particular bottleneck, you have access to multiple places. Sure, the merc will see you enter the vent, but he won't know where you're going from there (for example, even if a merc sees you go under the floor in Club House, he won't know where you plan on hitting next since you could go into Steam, Jacuzzi, Garden 1, or Lunch).
-Bait him into chasing you and have your partner grab him
-Bait him into a pre-placed cam

The problem I have is that none of these are MT specific. That is, you can use all of these against normal vision too, and they work just as well. In fact, many of these tactics are worse against MT than they are against normal vision. Waiting for a merc to turn his back or trying to have your partner ambush someone is much better against someone not in MT, just because the MT whore can detect things behind him, and there's no real drawback.

While MT may well be beatable if you're good enough, it has no exploitable weaknesses in the way EMF does, and in fact, it's flat out superior to normal vision. I mean, if you do any of the above suggested tactics, are there any of them which the normal vision merc can handle or detect better than the MT merc? Really, I can't see the advantage to using normal vision instead of MT except in a very rare circumstance. Gawain's example of Steel Squat is perhaps one of the few times i can agree normal vision + flashlight may be more effective, but in 95% of cases, you're better off running around in MT.

I call MT godvision because it's fundamentally not a different type of vision. Unlike EMF it doesn't let you see in a different way. All it is is slightly blurry normal sight with additional features.

And seriously as far as post render goes, I don't feel it makes as big a difference as people think it does. I've played on xbox for awhile, low resolution, no post render, and night vision is there. It's not as obvious, but you can still make out spies in the dark. You have to get used to it, but when you're used to how a level looks in MT redscale, spotting a distortion or dark spot where it shouldn't be isn't even that hard.

ct runs on pretty old computers, the only problem for you will be mastering the totally different controls.
btw, do we wanna implement controllers?

Controllers are totally possible anyways.  If I use Vista, ( which I have ), then I can get a reciever for my wireless 360 controller and use it to play PC.  I won't exactly have to master the PC controls but my controller controls will get that much easier if I can do what PC controls can. <--- wow that was a confusing sentence lol

you will always have bad aiming and/or slow turning with a controller, why don't you try getting used to a mouse?

invisible hit the nail on the hat. the probem with mt is NOT the 360 motion detection, it is the lack of real weak points. imo, forcing normal post render, slow climbing and addint a static noise should work out fine. i must admit though that i didn't play with normal post render very long, maybe invisible is right and one get's used to spotting slight brightness changes just like there are people who are godlike detecting emf ghosts. but it would make mt quite weak at detecting stationary spies in medium-large distances while doing well furthermore in the main purpose: detecting quick movement 360Ã,° in close-medium distance, especially against aggro.

Quote from: Gawain on August 29, 2007, 09:55:49 PM
you will always have bad aiming and/or slow turning with a controller, why don't you try getting used to a mouse?

Yeah, playing with controllers is fine if the other guy is also using a controller, but controller versus mouse isn't even a contest. You could maybe play spy marginally well on a controller, but merc would be at such a disadvantage.

QuoteInvisible hit the nail on the hat. the probem with mt is NOT the 360 motion detection, it is the lack of real weak points.

My point is people are discussing it as, and I quote, "magic vision" and "god vision." I'm sorry, but it's nowhere near that overpowered.

First of all, I think you need to copy every single game mechanic from ct even mt nightvision and only after major testing decide how and what to change. Because fixing obvious bugs like funny punching, instant nading, getting stuck in cam along with improved netcode which should fix issues such as warping, lag charges, inability to shock will shift balance significantly and no one can predict how. Only after that you can decide what really needs nerfing/boosting and what not. Also you shouldn't forget that maps' design is also important. I don't think anyone had so much of a problem with mt whoring on maps like club house or orphanage.

One thing that needs to be gone for sure is host advantage. Developers should try to make conditions equal as much as possible for all 4 players.

QuoteFirst of all, I think you need to copy every single game mechanic from ct even mt nightvision and only after major testing decide how and what to change. Because fixing obvious bugs like funny punching, instant nading, getting stuck in cam along with improved netcode which should fix issues such as warping, lag charges, inability to shock will shift balance significantly and no one can predict how.

I agree for the most part. But have you played PT? Most of the obvious bugs in CT didn't appear in PT.

Lag charges were in PT, those are the thing that really alter the gameplay/balance imo.  Someone can charge when charging the complete other way.  Really MT needs to be altered in some way.  Maybe you could take away its ability to detect slow crouching or decrease its range a bit?  Maybe both?

This got me thinking about how completely unbalanced DA was, it had MT permanently on and it had a HUGE range.  The one thing though is that it couldn't detect you when you were moving slow.

papa skull, you completely mix up crouching and moving slow.

I did play PT.
I was just trying to emphasize that absence of those bugs in PS will affect everything and that people should take that into consideration before making small changes with visions and etc.

No, I didn't.  I meant slow crouching like the act of moving slow when you are crouching.  Since DA didn't have a slow crouch movement, I meant moving slow.

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 30, 2007, 01:01:01 AM

This got me thinking about how completely unbalanced DA was, it had MT permanently on and it had a HUGE range.  The one thing though is that it couldn't detect you when you were moving slow.

Are you kidding? DA MT was much weaker than CT. I mean way weaker.. DA MT only detected you when you were running, that's it. It also only worked in your field of vision, not all around you.

If PS changed to DA style MT, stealth would get a big power boost. DA MT was very nerfed.

MT on DA could detect you from across the map.  It was also on all of the time.  If it DA MT had a limited range and you had to switch it on like CT then it would work great.

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 30, 2007, 05:17:31 AM
MT on DA could detect you from across the map.  It was also on all of the time.  If it DA MT had a limited range and you had to switch it on like CT then it would work great.

Yeah, it could detect you across the map if you were running... and only running. Big deal.

Also the white outline wasn't even obvious and lasted only until the spy stopped running. Then it was gone. you couldn't see where the spy was if he got to cover before you turned toward him, and sometimes you'd even miss the brief white outline (though you'd hear the sound).

Exactly.  I want PS to be like this, but make it a vision mode that you have to turn on and make it with a smaller range.

MT on DA is pointless. I'd rather have it off. It doesn't take a genious to notice a spy running around in your FOV.

not to mention when they are outlined in white... haha

DA is pointless.

^Agreed^ But there a few aspects that might prove useful in PS.  Not too much though.  WTF was ubi thinking even releasing DA?!

The thing is that DA MT wasn't a replacement for CT MT, it was a replacement for the sound detector. It was a way to punsih spies for running and that's it. Otherwise you'd never even have to worry about DA MT. 

The presence detector was much closer to a replacement for CT MT.

Mmmhmmm.  Well what if, DA MT with limited range was a replacement to CT MT in Project Stealth?  Wouldn't that give MT a little less godness and a little more weak points?

Quote from: Papa Skull on August 31, 2007, 06:34:41 AM
Mmmhmmm.  Well what if, DA MT with limited range was a replacement to CT MT in Project Stealth?  Wouldn't that give MT a little less godness and a little more weak points?

DA MT didn't have weak points, it was your standard vision that you had on all the time. As a non-toggleable option, it was like asking what the weak points of the sound detector are in CT.

DA MT is also virtually useless in CT. Spies already don't run because of the sound detector and you don't run into those absolute darkness areas in CT maps like you do in DA, so the white outline wouldn't even help much. Since it doesn't work in 360 degrees, you can't know if someone is coming up behind you either, so basically all it does is let you see someone slightly more clearly than you normally would be able to. But big deal because you could probably see them already.

So really, what does it do? Outline running spies you can already see and hear? It's basically the equivalent of taking MT out of the game and replacing it with something that nobody even cares about.

affirmative

DA MT DID have weak points.  Correct it wasn't toggle able but it couldn't detect spies who were crouched and moving.  If we kind of morph CT's MT and DA's MT together, then we might have a more balanced vision than we currently do.

If we put them together it would work something like this:

Doesn't detect spies who are slowly moving in light.
Has a range of 75-100 ft.
Detects movement of mercs, grenades, running/jumping/falling/rolling spies, opening and closing doors.
It has the box outline and not the white outline.
Detects movement through smoke or gas.
Doesn't work in Chaff.
Is a vision that you turn on, is toggle able as well.
Doesn't work as a night vision like CT had.
Merc's faceplate turns red, so does the merc's HUD.
Detects movement like running or rolling in dark areas, but not slow movement or someone moving while crouched.  Doesn't have its night vision effects, but can detect fast movement in the dark.

Since it is a possibility that there may be destructible lighting, it means that there will be darker parts on maps.  If a spy is running around in a dark room because he knows mercs can't easily find him he would be detected on MT.  If a spy is slowly moving around a merc who has MT on, the merc wouldn't detect him.

This way, MT has its weaknesses, isn't a godly vision, but still has good use.  I think it would be much more balanced this way.  Thoughts? 

The other day I was playing MGS, strange game  :D, and I remembered that it has this slow walk kind of feature.  You are standing up, but you are sort of creeping quietly and slowly.  It doesn't create noise but you are pretty visible because you are standing up.  I thought that it would be interesting to implement that into the spies abilities.  It would be useful if you are creeping behind a merc, but if you are detected then you are able to quickly run away because you are already in a standing position.  But it would be balanced by the fact that you are more visible while standing up and using this feature.  Thoughts?

thoughts? u suck, and so does your spam. ditch this bullshit.

Gawain, stop being a retard already.

Yeah, Papa Skull suggest something and you flame him for his good will...

And yeah, i'd like to MT made as Skull said, just give it less range - say 18-20 meters?

Quote from: Gui Brazil on September 01, 2007, 04:04:43 PM
Gawain, stop being a retard already.

i was just posting the obvious.
papa skull postet much spam with no new useful suggestions at all. there's nothing to discuss about it. maybe you guys should learn to read the stuff that has been posted before and in other threads.

Quote from: Gawain on September 01, 2007, 06:13:11 PM

Quote from: Gui Brazil on September 01, 2007, 04:04:43 PM
Gawain, stop being a retard already.

i was just posting the obvious.
papa skull postet much spam with no new useful suggestions at all. there's nothing to discuss about it. maybe you guys should learn to read the stuff that has been posted before and in other threads.

Maybe you should learn to live with other people's opinion.

Quit being a prick, really.

I haven't played DA but it sounds like DA MT is a replacement for the lack of "long distance" spy detection. In CT, you always assume the merc can hear you (until proved otherwise). In DA, you always assume the merc can't detect you (until proven otherwise by spotting him).

I would like to correct something, DA MT did work in 360 degrees.  I've played games against friends of mine and I've used that to my advantage.  You can run aorund behind a merc and their MT does go off.

Quote from: Gui Brazil on September 01, 2007, 07:29:15 PM
Maybe you should learn to live with other people's opinion.
Quit being a prick, really.

papa skull and you are the pricks here. learn to live with my opinion.

Gawain.  Please.  gtfo.  You are saying I spam?

You didn't respond to my post or anything I said in it.  You just went: " OMGF PApA SkuLL PoStEd IT So IMMA BE aN A$$holE!!! "  That is spam you fucking idiot.

Give me one good reason why my suggestion is bad, other than me posting it.

And Kok4F4n, 20 meters is about 60 feet.  And I agree lol

dude, i don't feel like slashing every stupid post of yours, i got better things to do.

What better things?  Go slash other people's posts?  I think that the only reason you didn't slash my MT post was because you couldn't.  You couldn't find a statement to counter what I said and so you just said I am a spamming idiot.

Please, tell me why my MT idea or suggestion isn't a good idea or what is wrong with it.

The thing with MT is that it can't be both a spy detector and an ultimate aggro-killer. That's just too good.

There has to be some drawback or method of getting past it.

I would think we should do MT gradually based on how fast the spy moves:

-Stationary spy (completely invisible to MT, you don't show up at all)
-Slow crouch (you appear as a red blur, normal post render, low res image).
-normal crouch (as slow crouch, but you get put in a white outline while in merc FoV, no penalty for being outside FoV).
-Running (put in a grey box regardless of if in merc FoV or not.

That way you can sneak past a merc in MT by just waiting for him to turn his back and then moving on crouch or slow crouch. When he turns toward you, you can always just freeze, and you'll be completely invisible.

That might work, I"m not sure. Though it'd still be a bitch to evade someone who cycles their visions regularly, but it's better than the current version we have now.

I Aggree.

Good ideas, I didn't even think about having different detection images for different speeds.  If the spy was falling or rolling it should be the box detection style.  If the spy was climbing a pole/ladder, shimmying across ledges, or pulling himself onto a ledge then it should be the red blur style.  I don't know if when you are crouching and moving it should be the white outline, maybe just a brighter color of red and less blurry.

Quote from: Gui Brazil on September 01, 2007, 07:29:15 PM

Quote from: Gawain on September 01, 2007, 06:13:11 PM

Quote from: Gui Brazil on September 01, 2007, 04:04:43 PM
Gawain, stop being a retard already.

i was just posting the obvious.
papa skull postet much spam with no new useful suggestions at all. there's nothing to discuss about it. maybe you guys should learn to read the stuff that has been posted before and in other threads.

Maybe you should learn to live with other people's opinion.

Quit being a prick, really.

I second that and Invisible's suggestion.

Hey I didn't want to start a new topic and I didn't know where else to ask this.  But is it going to be possible to do split screen/system link?  Is that even possible on PC anyways?  If it was then I would really love this.  Of course the split screeners would be forced on to the same team at all times and they would move as if they were one person in the lobby but take up two slots.  Does that make sense?