I guess anyone that played DA knows what I mean...
I think it would be a good add-on to the game if we added the move and maybe create some new
Aside from diving out windows, I really can't think of a good reason to add any of the other escape moves. The rest of them just seemed pretty unrealistic overall. Though it annyos the hell out of me that on clubhouse or hospital I've got to carefully approach the window and jump over it, instead of just doing a running dive.
WTF? It comes naturally to me, i just run up and jump and that's all... no failure margin for me.
we don't need insanely fast escape moves in ct with ss etc
if you don't want to fight, leave earlier.
Well yeah there is the window/railing that is realy usefull as is the "ceilling roll" and for the merc the hook would be usefull too
hey, a jet pack would be usefull, too. ::)
Shutup Gawain. Escape moves like swinging yourself up in ceilings would make the game smoother and save spies some time. I'd also like to be able to dive through a window or over a rail. The rest I could live without. I'm not even sure what I think about the sliding underneath a hanging door or garage door or whatever the hell it was.
If there are cool little escape moves to do then make them a lot slower than DA's moves. Problem solved.
Quote from: Gawain on December 21, 2007, 01:08:34 AM
hey, a jet pack would be usefull, too. ::)
Ur just being ridiculus... It's not so much for the gameplay that would change at all but for the detail which turn a "cool" to "omg that's freaking awsome"
Its not needed. Maybe the window and ceiling one but at the moment CT is a much slower paced game and escaping isn't really a large element in the game whereas in DA they were needed more.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 21, 2007, 02:08:56 AM
Shutup Gawain. Escape moves like swinging yourself up in ceilings would make the game smoother and save spies some time. I'd also like to be able to dive through a window or over a rail. The rest I could live without. I'm not even sure what I think about the sliding underneath a hanging door or garage door or whatever the hell it was.
If there are cool little escape moves to do then make them a lot slower than DA's moves. Problem solved.
I think the escape moves were pretty sweet from DA.
the escape moves could be balanced if they are a lot slower than in da, but they would only make sense when escaping gets way more difficult like it is in scda with no ss.
You just suggested exactly what I said. That's funny. we don't need any sarcastic bullshit from anyone. We just want to have a discussion.
your or your noobfriends stupid point is always: "it's useful for ..." which is absolutely not valid alone.
you are also too stupid/arrogant to read my posts properly:
Quote from: Gawain on December 21, 2007, 11:07:11 AM
the escape moves could be balanced if they are a lot slower than in da, but they would only make sense when escaping gets way more difficult like it is in scda with no ss.
i don't think it's the same what you said.
escape moves are awesome, dont forget it overcame the problem of grabbing ledges, and you could slide into vents.
Quote from: goodkebab on December 22, 2007, 03:19:13 PM
escape moves are awesome, dont forget it overcame the problem of grabbing ledges, and you could slide into vents.
Yeah. They make some things simplier and if implemented properly they would be nice.
I only dont like the one with jumping through window. Imagine such thing on museum when spy is harrasing both cafes. It would be too difficult to balance in some situations. Still, sliding into vents ceiling grab are very nice.
Here is you.
Quote from: Gawain on December 21, 2007, 11:07:11 AM
a lot slower than in da
Here is me.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 21, 2007, 02:08:56 AM
a lot slower than DA's moves.
They would be useful AND balanced. Somehow you'd like to argue with me even though we have the same point.
Escape moves from Da wouldnt be such a bad thing. I dont think it should be slowed. I actually liked how the spy was fast.
Maybe some type of stream lined system for grabbing ledges would be helpful but adding the "escape moves" from DA seems unnecessary. I mean I would love for there to be some sort of auto aim system to help with those moments where you just missed grabbing a ledge by a few inches and subsequently you are shot to death. But adding anything that is significantly faster than the way it currently is would make spies far to hard to catch.
And I Really don't like the idea of adding things that are "cool" just for visual flare. It sounds like we are trying to attract 12 year olds to this game. Good animations are one thing but lets not go over the top and turn Project Stealth into a Olympic free mat competition.
They would be helpful for spies, but since they would be slowed down it would just make spies move smoother, not faster. Instead of the clunky system for jumping up into a ceiling it would be the smooth flip up from DA, except slower. This would just make it a little easier for spies to escape in certain places and make it smoother for them. It really wouldn't make it harder on the merc because it's not like once they do the escape move they are gone. Like if a spy jumped through the window in the cafe on Museum it would still be easy to shoot them while they are doing it or catch up to them.
Quote from: psyichic on December 22, 2007, 08:27:37 PM
I mean I would love for there to be some sort of auto aim system to help with those moments where you just missed grabbing a ledge by a few inches and subsequently you are shot to death.
Yeah I can agree to that. It sounds reasonable.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 23, 2007, 04:03:22 PM
Quote from: psyichic on December 22, 2007, 08:27:37 PM
I mean I would love for there to be some sort of auto aim system to help with those moments where you just missed grabbing a ledge by a few inches and subsequently you are shot to death.
Yeah I can agree to that. It sounds reasonable.
Yeah it's nice if you want to grab the lefge but if you don't want to grab it and you grab it that sucks... like for the auto-aim for jumping merc in CT... you try to graba ledge a merc passe under it auto-aim moves you you miss the ledge and don't realy get the merc and usualy die
papa, read the other part of my post beginning with "but" ...
i hate people quoting out of context
Quote from: psyichic on December 22, 2007, 08:27:37 PM
I mean I would love for there to be some sort of auto aim system to help with those moments where you just missed grabbing a ledge by a few inches and subsequently you are shot to death.
the only places this would have helped me sometimes is steel staircase to spawn and orph upper disc.
Yeah, even with that "but" it is still the same kind of suggestion.
Quote from: Gawain on December 21, 2007, 11:07:11 AM
the escape moves could be balanced if they are a lot slower than in da, but they would only make sense when escaping gets way more difficult like it is in scda with no ss.
you want slower escape moves, and i consider them bs if ps comes close to the gameplay we're used to from ct.
vega is right, it's really a waste of time trying to argue with you.
Well, imo escape moves could be used for getting up ceiling quickly (e.g. hold space), because grabbing the ceiling first and then climbing, while being shot at, is lame.
Only noobs climb stuff while being shot at.
I think escape moves were meant to replace sticky shockers (I've never played DA).
In CT, shock + run.
In DA, shock + escape moves.
And therefore, do we really need escape moves in PS? We have the sticky shocker.
Good point.
Slower escape moves would just be like moves that are used to get to places faster and smoother. CT has a clunky system for climbing into ceilings and what not, with escape moves it would be much easier. With slower escape moves it really doesn't matter if a spy has ss or not. When they are animations that take longer to complete they aren't really going to help you escape that much. It's just going to help you move more smoothly.
There's a reason the spy was super fuckin fast in DA, to make up for ss. So he could gain some ground and escape much easier. With a slower spy, slower escape moves, it shouldn't be bs if you have ss.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 23, 2007, 10:35:39 PM
There's a reason the spy was super fuckin fast in DA, to make up for ss. So he could gain some ground and escape much easier. With a slower spy, slower escape moves, it shouldn't be bs if you have ss.
Nah the spy was faster just to make a faster paced game. If you remember right, the merc was super fast too.
Well yes, that is true. But the faster the merc is made, the faster the spy must be made. My point is that if escape moves are coupled with ss it wouldn't be unbalanced if the moves are slower than in DA. It would just make it easier for spies to get places without doing a bunch of button presses.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 23, 2007, 04:03:22 PM
Quote from: psyichic on December 22, 2007, 08:27:37 PM
I mean I would love for there to be some sort of auto aim system to help with those moments where you just missed grabbing a ledge by a few inches and subsequently you are shot to death.
Yeah I can agree to that. It sounds reasonable.
NO!
NO! NO! NO!
Auto-aim is the worst possible thing to ever be in a game. That ledge thing is a problem with collision detection, and it didn't even exist in PT.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 24, 2007, 04:02:29 AM
NO! NO! NO!
Auto-aim is the worst possible thing to ever be in a game. That ledge thing is a problem with collision detection, and it didn't even exist in PT.
Why? We're not talking about auto-aim for the guns, just help getting up on ledges.
I've always found fluid, easy-to-use controls make a game more fun.
I agree with Spekkio, no thanks. You shouldn't need help if collision detection is fixed and working.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 24, 2007, 04:02:29 AM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 23, 2007, 04:03:22 PM
Quote from: psyichic on December 22, 2007, 08:27:37 PM
I mean I would love for there to be some sort of auto aim system to help with those moments where you just missed grabbing a ledge by a few inches and subsequently you are shot to death.
Yeah I can agree to that. It sounds reasonable.
NO!
NO! NO! NO!
Auto-aim is the worst possible thing to ever be in a game. That ledge thing is a problem with collision detection, and it didn't even exist in PT.
+1
the spies already have way more vertical agility than the mercs, i don't think they need a boost.
climbing in the ceiling with a merc nearby is stupid suicide.
i must admit tough that the escape moves looked kinda cool, but i'm confident that the animator of ps is capable of creating smooth and balanced ones, too.
i really dont get why the grabbing ledges was nerfed in Ct...in pt you never missed a grab.
Quote from: goodkebab on December 24, 2007, 04:02:29 PM
i really dont get why the grabbing ledges was nerfed in Ct...in pt you never missed a grab.
or a split jump for that matter.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 24, 2007, 04:37:22 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on December 24, 2007, 04:02:29 PM
i really dont get why the grabbing ledges was nerfed in Ct...in pt you never missed a grab.
or a split jump for that matter.
I don't think they nerfed split jump in Ct... I think the switch the way of doing it without warning anyone... in PT if I remenber well u had to "double" or "triple" jump to do the split jump... in Ct you need to double jump then "look" where ur foot should go for the split jump then it's going to do it... since I've been doing that I never missed split jump like in PT
Quote from: goodkebab on December 24, 2007, 04:02:29 PM
i really dont get why the grabbing ledges was nerfed in Ct...in pt you never missed a grab.
Exactly. This has nothing to do with auto-aim. Suggesting that you put auto-aim in the game to fix a problem that has nothing to do with it is not fixing the problem.
The width of ledge that your spy can effectively grab just has to widen back to where it was in PT, and that's all. If you're too retarded to correctly jump up to a ledge, then you die.
And yes, split jumps have the same problem. However, seeing as this is a new engine and a new game, I don't think either will be an issue.
Quote from: Overstatement on December 23, 2007, 09:27:33 PM
Only noobs climb stuff while being shot at.
I think escape moves were meant to replace sticky shockers (I've never played DA).
In CT, shock + run.
In DA, shock + escape moves.
And therefore, do we really need escape moves in PS? We have the sticky shocker.
Hmm, good point. However, I wouldn't mind the escape move for jumping through windows or rails. The reason for that is because in PT and CT is was hard to jump smoothly out of a window or there was that akward jump over the rail animation. The other escape moves are not necessary, imo. Escape moves should really only be used when a merc has spotted you and is giving chase. Jumping into a vent or ceiling area is something you should do when you have not been spotted yet and you know you have time to do the action.
I'm hoping the animation for climbing over a metal fence in PS is better than what was in PT or CT. I got stuck on those things quite a bit on the Station map.
Quote from: Wandering_Youth on December 28, 2007, 10:24:40 AM
Quote from: Overstatement on December 23, 2007, 09:27:33 PM
Only noobs climb stuff while being shot at.
I think escape moves were meant to replace sticky shockers (I've never played DA).
In CT, shock + run.
In DA, shock + escape moves.
And therefore, do we really need escape moves in PS? We have the sticky shocker.
Hmm, good point. However, I wouldn't mind the escape move for jumping through windows or rails. The reason for that is because in PT and CT is was hard to jump smoothly out of a window or there was that akward jump over the rail animation. The other escape moves are not necessary, imo. Escape moves should really only be used when a merc has spotted you and is giving chase. Jumping into a vent or ceiling area is something you should do when you have not been spotted yet and you know you have time to do the action.
I'm hoping the animation for climbing over a metal fence in PS is better than what was in PT or CT. I got stuck on those things quite a bit on the Station map.
So, if a merc comes in a room and spots you, what do you do? Options vary. I wish I could dive through that glass window and create a diversion.Granted its simple, but useful and stealthy related. I want to get in this ceiling really quick while there is a merc nearby (dark room). Might get spotted on MT. Or you can get caught and take the rape. If he doesn't see you, then you already have an advantage, given it doesn't ping in the mercs visor. The escape moves would be effective if they were silent. It really just acts as a macro or combination to do a different move.
I wouldn't be mad if it wasn't in PS, but I wouldn't be mad if it was. I thought they were useful in DA, granted the facts.
Fences do suck. Thats suicide. I'm sure they will be adjusted.
I say we should make decisions like these after the maps have been finished, beta tested, and feedback has been received. Our maps will help to mold what kind of gameplay elements that PS deserves.
I for one Appreciated the quick getaways in DA mainly because there was no stealth aspect to the game compared to CT. So take for example, your in BLACKWING (my favorite map) You hack the green terminal a bit, the merc comes running in and his 'Proximity Detector' starts going crazy, so it's not like you have a decent place to hide because a good merc is gonna know your close and check the usual spots. So it was always best to quickly manuever through the ceiling.
So I think the Proximity Detector helped to birth the quick escapes as well.
THe main reason proximity sensor was introduced is so you could find a hacking spy, because really he could be anywhere really.
Escape moves could be really awesome if put in the right places. For example, putting holes in the ceilings near objectives so you could quickly go from hacking to hidden, but still vulnerable. Of if you put an objective in a high tower with windows all around it, you could just dive through a window. And possibly get hut badly from the fall, but you escaped. If the merc was shooting you before you did the escape move then you would probably die from the fall.
You could do things like that to balance them. I would really like to see them in the game, it just makes manouvering as spies a lot easier.
vents etc right next to objectives is poor map design.
the thing that scda did better was rewarding patroulling. if you found a spy, he couldn't simply SS and run away. in ct there are a lot of situations where you don't exactly know where the spies are so you camp in a central spot because patroulling is not worth the risk.
Well, it depends where that vent leads to, or ceiling. Like I said, if you put escape moves to where they are risky sometimes to pull off - like putting a window that leads to a long fall. If you had full health and you did the escape move you would survive, but if you were wounded, you'd die.
Quote from: Gawain on December 28, 2007, 10:07:13 PM
vents etc right next to objectives is poor map design.
the thing that scda did better was rewarding patroulling. if you found a spy, he couldn't simply SS and run away. in ct there are a lot of situations where you don't exactly know where the spies are so you camp in a central spot because patroulling is not worth the risk.
Yeah. Well the DA proxy sensor kind of forced you to patrol, because it gave you more information as to where the spy might be. Most of the time you didn't really see the spy except when he was stopped to hack anyway, so you had to rely on your proxy detector as pretty much your only means of finding him.
If you want to encourage patrolling, the easiest way to do that is not to have objectives close together and make it so there's always an objective that's open. If the mercs can't be at all the objectives at once, then they must patrol. It's really that simple.
That's true. Also, there should be multiple ways to get into the room with the objective. There needs to be a bunch of ways so a merc doesn't just have to camp there and defend just one hallways or vent. He'd have to patrol the room. Of course the objectives should be spread apart, atleast further than Aquarius ffs. ::)
the proximity sensor was kinda necessary because of the insane amount of vents and no other tools like traps,camnet, mines, sound indicator, etc, yet large maps in a certain svm game.
I don't just mean an insane amount of vents, I just mean there should be atleast 3 ways to get into a room with an objective. Of course that depends on how close the objectives are to eachother, and how the map is designed. But I'd rather not have maps like Aqua where you can just camp in one spot and see most or all of the entrances into the room. Maybe you could make some more concealed entrances, like in more shadows or behind cover.
Quote from: Gawain on January 04, 2008, 02:19:16 PM
the proximity sensor was kinda necessary because of the insane amount of vents and no other tools like traps,camnet, mines, sound indicator, etc, yet large maps in a certain svm game.
Well honestly in DA, even if you did make sound and had mines and stuff, it wouldn't even matter. Most of the spy routes were on a totally different level that you couldn't even reach. you'd need a drone that could plant mines/traps to even start to defend some of those spyroutes.
Unlike in CT, in DA, the spies didn't even go remotely the same way as a merc, so you wouldn't be able to catch anyone except a total newb using CT style merc tactics.
On a side topic, what if we replaced the disk radar with a DA style prox sensor instead (working only on the guy who was holding the disk). That might add a bit more stealth to disk runs, instead of them just being a run and shock affair.
That's actually a great idea Invisible. It would involve more finding the spy than it does now. Right now it's just figure out where he's going using your radar and cut him off, or just defend the drop off.
See? There are quite some original ideas coming :)
IMO very good idea. Im all for it.
you don't appear on the radar in slow mode in ct. this is actually a better solution since stealth should be slower and the range is already limited by the radar hud size.
Yet you still know where the spy is going if he's outside of your radars range and running. Imo the arrow on the radar could be removed.
sounds ok to me.
another idea would be to make the spy appear on radar every 7s.
though i really think besides the need to add a slow climb move nothing is broken with disk hunt.
God, I hate disc hunt... Anywho, I think that your radar could bleep every 4 or 5 seconds. The arrow should be gone. Anything that it picks up on the radar only stays on the radar for a split second. Meaning that the bleep goes away very quickly. With more open maps and more passages it would be easier to sneak around a merc. If you get close to a merc, he'll know you are around because he basically has a Presence detector on his radar.
this doesn't work for diskhunt. if you get close to the spy, he tazes and flash/smoke/chaff you and is gone. once again, you lack experience. the only change that might be good is removing the arrows.
I wasn't talking about disc hunt, I was talking about extracting the disc on story mode. I should have made that a little more clear.
Proximity detector for disk extraction is a great idea. Only flaw: merc will know when you are near the drop off points. They are usually close to each other, so the merc can scan a patch in b/w to hear the pings. Drop offs would have to have separate routes that came from opposite angles of the main routes.
The routes can be on opposite sides of the map, but ultimately they lead to close extraction points. So, merc would still be able to camp the spots and be able to detect spies. Maybe you could put drop off points further away from eachother.
i was also referring to story mode disk obj.
map design is probably the most important factor.
Quote from: Gawain on January 06, 2008, 02:15:45 AM
map design is probably the most important factor.
Bingo.
Well the main flaw with disc extraction is that the merc not only knows where you're going, but also knows where you are, unless you move at a slow crawl. Which really sucks for spies, because that gives the merc ample time to patrol and find you. There's just no easy way to get to the disc drop off in slow crawl, and the moment you move anything faster than slow crawl, the merc knows where you are. And while you're slow crawling he's patroling and the chances he finds you is very high, unless the merc is a total fool, because you can't really sneak past anyone in slow crawl.
So what do you end up doing? Run around, using SS on the merc and trying to run past him, usually with your partner as cover. Either that or your partner hits a second objective as a distraction. Disk extraction right now is the least stealthy objective in CT. It's just a mad dash for the drop site with your partner providing cover with the SS and grenades.
I can't really choose whether bombing or extracting has the least amount of stealth involved. Because usually it's just a clusterfuck around the bomb with nades going off everywhere with a side helping of an aggro fest. But bomb's can be stealth also, meaning you sneak to the bomb area. I'd really wish that you can remote trigger the bomb so the tiimer starts when you want it to. The only way I can think of getting discs more stealth involved is by removing the arrow and adding the proxy sensor only when the spy has the disc.
Both planting bomb and extracting disk are stealthy tasks. Well, if you plot them well.
The only thing that stealth has to do with bombing is the way there, and when you plant it. If there is a merc a room away then it will have no stealth, and rather a double or triple nade + sticky cams + a shitload of elbows to the face. The only thing that stealth will have to do with them is timing and distraction (sometimes). Only thing that extracting has to do with stealth are the moments where you must avoid the mercs and go around them, or moving super duper slowly. I'd say the vast majority of the times you'll encounter those objectives, you aren't going to NEED stealth.
the main problem with the slow walk is that there is no slow climb move. with two disk drop-offs not exactly next to each other, you can go for a stealthy approach quite well.
Yeah, there needs to be a slow climb move for sure.
it's one of the very little changes that make a really huge difference for the better.
Maybe a slow drop move also. Not an actual drop but you climb down slowly. If not, you'd have to find a way down that doesn't force you to drop, like stairs.
you shouldn't be able to make fast moves like dropping in slow-mode. that's one of the game mechanics that would help newer players a lot since it's more coherent.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 06, 2008, 10:22:51 AM
The only thing that stealth has to do with bombing is the way there, and when you plant it. If there is a merc a room away then it will have no stealth, and rather a double or triple nade + sticky cams + a shitload of elbows to the face. The only thing that stealth will have to do with them is timing and distraction (sometimes). Only thing that extracting has to do with stealth are the moments where you must avoid the mercs and go around them, or moving super duper slowly. I'd say the vast majority of the times you'll encounter those objectives, you aren't going to NEED stealth.
Actually, getting into position near the bomb...and having your mate in position to hack something else is the stealthy approach. He starts hacking and you plant. Shoot some nades in doorways....drop cams...use camo or HB sensor. If the merc gets close you can grab or elbow/tazz. Its stealthy until it requires a little something extra. Even if a merc is in the area or close to the room....plant, then move to the closest objective while he's finding the bomb and start hacking. You don't need to get the bomb. Use it as a diversion. No moron would plant the bomb if the merc was in the room unless he had no time/choice.
That's why I said that the way there could involve stealth, and when you plant it could involve stealth. Defending it involves no stealth. And most of the time, to capture that objective, you NEED to defend it. The other times the mercs don't care or they are preoccupied with other hacks and objectives.
A way to balance out the disc, it to allow it to crouch run without detection, but not do a standing run. That way you can actually make it there in 10 minutes, but need to be stealthy.
That'd be too easy. If we go that way the dropoffs would have to be pretty close to eachother.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 07, 2008, 01:10:54 AM
That's why I said that the way there could involve stealth, and when you plant it could involve stealth. Defending it involves no stealth. And most of the time, to capture that objective, you NEED to defend it. The other times the mercs don't care or they are preoccupied with other hacks and objectives.
Well at the very least, defending it may require some kind of ambush, which cna be a surprise attack if you happen to come from a direction the merc doesn't expect. Granted, it's pretty limited, but it's better than the disk extraction, where the merc knows exactly where you are and where you're going. Unless of course you decide to go slow crouch and take like 5 minutes to get across the map.
Well, ambushing doesn't always equal stealth. So it is pretty limited, like you said. I'd like to be able to plant the bomb, leave the room, and trigger when the bomb starts. It would let you use much more stealth.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 07, 2008, 09:36:27 AM
I'd like to be able to plant the bomb, leave the room, and trigger when the bomb starts.
I brought this idea up in an earlier thread, but don't know how far it got. Devs?
Yeah, that's why I'm bringing it up now. Is because it's an awesome idea and should get some thought atleast.
I like my option that it's timed better, for balancing purposes. Like you plant it and then you have a window of 5 seconds to move somewhere else before it automatically starts. You can also order it to start earlier.
That way, Mercs will know that the Spy at max at 5 seconds distance of the bomb, when he triggered it.
Not really, cause merc doesnt usually come instantly but after some time, so in fact spy would get more time to get to another objective if he didnt intend to defend it.
there's nothing wrong with bomb objectives besides bad map design and eax superhearing.
you can use the bomb objectives as a pretty good distraction. if you wanna get it against good mercs, you have to defend it most times, but this is a stealth-action-mp...
it's similar with the disk objectives: no1 hinders you to not go right to the drop-off. how about hacking a laptop/placing bomb first? there are tons of ways to bring mercs out of position and to surprise them...
Quote from: Gawain on January 06, 2008, 11:29:41 PM
you shouldn't be able to make fast moves like dropping in slow-mode. that's one of the game mechanics that would help newer players a lot since it's more coherent.
Dropping doesn't have to be a fast move. I think the slow dropping, where you first hang onto the ledge and slide down slowly should not be shown on the radar when carrying the disc (same goes for MT), whereas rolling down or directly jumping down should, of course.
when you're in slow mode, no fast move should be possible at all.
nothing is wrong with a slow drop move for low heights.
Quote from: Gawain on January 07, 2008, 02:36:42 PM
when you're in slow mode, no fast move should be possible at all.
nothing is wrong with a slow drop move for low heights.
That's what I'm trying to say. ;)
Quote from: Gawain on January 07, 2008, 02:30:20 PM
there's nothing wrong with bomb objectives besides bad map design and eax superhearing.
Yeah .. but it would still be nice to be able to decide for yourself when you want to launch the bomb. Maybe in a restricted time limit, let's say you got 1min. to launch the timer, but it's up to you when you want to do it. To balance it out, I think it'd be good to say the spies can only carry one bomb at a time, and have to refill at ammo-boxes, like in PTs sabo. Could work quite well, I think, well .. it's just an idea.
this would severely hurt gameplay and balance.
Not really.
I don't know, could come out balanced, could not. Devs?
It would boost patrolling, since the mercs could/should/may disable a bomb before the coundown is started...
Delayed bomb countdowns sound pretty cool to me. It'll help out stealthy spies, which is a good thing, since normally bombs are an aggro spy or run-around hack tactic.
i can't see the point. the merc already has to leave his position to defuse the bomb (unprepared if the spy sneaked to the bomb place, he may already be too far away) not knowing what the spy is up to after placing the bomb. he just gives away his position for a moment placing the bomb, but that's it. he can have placed a sticky cam at the way to the bomb, hide with camo above/behind a corner, cover aggressively alone or with his partner (which is quite impossible to defend as a merc if you are unprepared), intercept the merc at his way to the bomb, head to another objective (to the one that the merc going to defuse the bomb comes from or to the other one, alone or with his mate), stay hidden close to the bomb, etc.
as you can easily see, bomb objectives already offer quite good stealth opportunities. if you play stealth, the merc has no idea where you placed the bomb and what you are up to in the next second.
i think the whole reason you think someone should change bomb objectives is the poor implementation on museum, but that's just one map...
Quote from: Gawain on January 07, 2008, 10:33:01 PM
i can't see the point. the merc already has to leave his position to defuse the bomb (unprepared if the spy sneaked to the bomb place, he may already be too far away) not knowing what the spy is up to after placing the bomb. he just gives away his position for a moment placing the bomb, but that's it. he can have placed a sticky cam at the way to the bomb, hide with camo above/behind a corner, cover aggressively alone or with his partner (which is quite impossible to defend as a merc if you are unprepared), intercept the merc at his way to the bomb, head to another objective (to the one that the merc going to defuse the bomb comes from or to the other one, alone or with his mate), stay hidden close to the bomb, etc.
as you can easily see, bomb objectives already offer quite good stealth opportunities. if you play stealth, the merc has no idea where you placed the bomb and what you are up to in the next second.
i think the whole reason you think someone should change bomb objectives is the poor implementation on museum, but that's just one map...
Mhh .. you are thinking too much in CT-map patterns, especially museum. The bomb objective doesn't have to be miles away like in museum. It could be just some rooms further. Think of rivermall with one bomb objective at the High-Fi room. If the spies were to decide when to launch the bomb objectives, there would be plenty of new tactics. (supported by a solid map design, as always)
Well .. it's just an idea anyways, what do you think, devs? Gui? Blob? Zed?
Yeah it'd be pretty cool. Give the mercs something else to patrol, which is good, and gives the spy new tactical options.
the mercs already have a big disadvantage when they didn't patrol and the spy sneaked to the bomb objective. a way better way to improve the stealth aspect is to make finding the bomb harder, eg more bomb spots and especially spots that can't all be seen from a central (sniping) point.
It would be better if you give the spy a little detonation time starter.
Quote from: Gawain on January 07, 2008, 11:37:01 PM
the mercs already have a big disadvantage when they didn't patrol and the spy sneaked to the bomb objective. a way better way to improve the stealth aspect is to make finding the bomb harder, eg more bomb spots and especially spots that can't all be seen from a central (sniping) point.
Well I can agree with getting rid of the central sniping point. I wouldn't want there to be too many spots, otherwise the game turns into PT sabotage, where you didn't have a damn clue where those modems were most of the time.
Yes, an escape move should be added into any kind of situation, as long as it is not made like in DA where you just disappear. Make it a little more realistic, like... no diving through windows, instead, maybe jumping forward and kicking the window out then sliding back on your feet. And another thing, none of that grabbing a vent on the ceiling and flipping into it. Just make a quick jump and turn in the air, grabbing the vent, then pulling yourself up. All that DA crap overpowers the spies way too much. New spies would beat new mercs. Find a way to even it up :).
Diving through windows is realistic. It's not too hard to do. Especially for a highly trained spy.
I've jumped through a window before. I won't get into details but it IS possible.
I dive through windows everyday....when I'm runnin away from your Dad....tell your Mom ill call her later.....sorry for the off topic...tired
NO to a fucking remote bomb/timer bomb. it's really sad that you don't get why this is bad, but probably you didn't even bother to read my post. what you want is being able to place a bomb, but not give away your position/the bomb in that moment, and start the bomb timer alone when you're at another place. this is just ridiculous. did you actually think about the merc side, the balance, the gameplay, etc?
on the escape moves: i don't think they are good for the gameplay in a game with ss. if you probably have to dive through a window later, you better destroy it with your ss before. that's called planning and makes this game tactical.
i also can't se the point in increasing the vertical agility as the spies are already way more agile then the mercs; if you want to get in a vent etc when the merc is chasing you, you better have a good ss timing. it's already quite easy to get away, no need to change anything. you shouldn't be in this kind of situation anyways...
Quote from: Gawain on January 08, 2008, 01:55:15 PM
but probably you didn't even bother to read my post.
I did. I even responded to it. huh
Quote from: Gawain on January 08, 2008, 01:55:15 PM
what you want is being able to place a bomb, but not give away your position/the bomb in that moment, and start the bomb timer alone when you're at another place.
Erm .. I've had that idea, yes. I didn't say that I want that in the game. Just an idea for the devs, maybe.
Quote from: Gawain on January 08, 2008, 01:55:15 PM
this is just ridiculous. did you actually think about the merc side, the balance, the gameplay, etc?
Yes I did, and now I'm telling you to re-read my post:
The bomb objective doesn't have to be miles away like in museum. It could be just some rooms further. Think of rivermall with one bomb objective at the High-Fi room. If the spies were to decide when to launch the bomb objectives, there would be plenty of new tactics. (supported by a solid map design, as always)I'm asking you to stop thinking of Project Stealth as CT1.5 all the time, because there's going to be completely new maps, new techniques, new gadgeds and a whole new feeling to the game - think of the jump PT -> CT if you were there back then.
btw. It's still just an idea, just like the escape moves are. No one says they're going to be implemented and they'll sure as hell NOT be neglected just because you say so. No need to spam every thread with your "no need for change" stuff.
there is tons of stuff that need to be changed, but not where things are perfectly fine.
if the bomb objective is in a room close to a central spot/another objective, how about setting a lower timer?? way easier and better solution...
most of the problems guys like you see (and the changes you want) are based on bad map design or on a lack of skill/experience/teamplay.
Quote from: Gawain on January 08, 2008, 04:33:48 PM
Most of the problems guys like you see (and the changes you want) are based on bad map design or on a lack of skill/experience/teamplay.
haha - that doesn't apply to me, since I've been playing since day one of the SCPT demo - so I can ensure you that I understand that game at least as well as you do. ;)
Give the remote a certain range to work.
Quote from: Gawain on January 08, 2008, 04:33:48 PM
there is tons of stuff that need to be changed, but not where things are perfectly fine.
if the bomb objective is in a room close to a central spot/another objective, how about setting a lower timer?? way easier and better solution...
most of the problems guys like you see (and the changes you want) are based on bad map design or on a lack of skill/experience/teamplay.
Did you not notice how frgve said that the remote bomb would have a timer on it that could be activated earlier if necessary?
I think that it should only be able to be activated within a certain distance from the bomb drop. I do think it is a good idea to implement and test in the beta.
If you can't find a bomb in 20 sec (in a room like tech room with no one guarding it because the spy left somewhere else) then you have no idea what you are doing. Hell, even 5-10 seconds would be enough.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 08, 2008, 08:24:58 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 08, 2008, 04:33:48 PM
there is tons of stuff that need to be changed, but not where things are perfectly fine.
if the bomb objective is in a room close to a central spot/another objective, how about setting a lower timer?? way easier and better solution...
most of the problems guys like you see (and the changes you want) are based on bad map design or on a lack of skill/experience/teamplay.
Did you not notice how frgve said that the remote bomb would have a timer on it that could be activated earlier if necessary?
I think that it should only be able to be activated within a certain distance from the bomb drop. I do think it is a good idea to implement and test in the beta.
Perhaps when you decide to activate it from distance, the spy should become visible on radar in the moment of activation ? This would help mercs a little so they are not so defenceless when spy is intending to use the bomb as a complete deception.
How about: The further the bomb is activated by remote, the longer the timer gets.
I mean, there has to be some minimum limit, like 25s, but if you plan using bombs as a distraction, mercs should be able to defend themselves.
I like it. If possible, the map designers should be able to set the minimum/maximum time as well as the time/distance radius, since the balance will depend heavily on the map.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 08, 2008, 09:13:28 PM
How about: The further the bomb is activated by remote, the longer the timer gets.
I mean, there has to be some minimum limit, like 25s, but if you plan using bombs as a distraction, mercs should be able to defend themselves.
Well I would actually prefer something where you can either activate it manually, for a short timer or activate it remotely for a longer timer. I don't like the idea of the time varying by distance, because that means that the merc might guess where you are just by the seconds on the clock, which is probably bad for steatlh.
I didn't think of that, thanks for reminding us. Kok4f4n, you had a good suggestion, but it just had one problem.
The bombs give away the spies exact position as it is now. And the merc would only get an approximate search radius. In a map like Aquarius for example, it wouldn't tell you much.
you got me wrong, i meant lower bomb timers, not a lower remote timer.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 08, 2008, 09:13:28 PM
How about: The further the bomb is activated by remote, the longer the timer gets.
I mean, there has to be some minimum limit, like 25s, but if you plan using bombs as a distraction, mercs should be able to defend themselves.
this sounds at least kinda balanced to me, but still the whole idea of a remote bomb activation is pointless. btw, with kokafan's suggestion the mercs would know the approximate range of the spy with the bomb timer and some math.
another idea would be adding a bomb detection delay instead of a remote control.
Bomb detection delay = Mercs can see the bomb is planted after some time passes (the bomb would tick from the moment it's planted, if i get it right?).
yap.
this way, the map designer can adjust it better, the mercs have a time bonus against aggro players that plant the bomb when it's obvious, but a harder time if the bomb was planted unsuspectedly.
Quote from: Gawain on January 09, 2008, 05:13:03 PM
yap.
this way, the map designer can adjust it better, the mercs have a time bonus against aggro players that plant the bomb when it's obvious, but a harder time if the bomb was planted unsuspectedly.
yeah .. that's actually an idea that I like very much. It rewards stealth and beats aggro. Screw remote bomb, put that in!
For some reason I'm not getting it...I'll give it an hour.
What Gawain means is that the mercs will have the pop up that the bomb is there after a certain time.
Say you plant the bomb when you have 9:00 minutes left, but the merc get the alert message on 8:45, which means they get 15 seconds extra (but without the alert message) to remove the bomb.
Quote from: Gawain on January 09, 2008, 05:13:03 PM
yap.
this way, the map designer can adjust it better, the mercs have a time bonus against aggro players that plant the bomb when it's obvious, but a harder time if the bomb was planted unsuspectedly.
Wait, what? How will the game know if the bomb was planted unsuspectedly or obviously? You mean if it was planted directly that is aggro? And if it was remotely triggered it is stealth? Not totally getting it either. Explain please.
Oh, kok4fan just answered it. It sounds good I guess. Both Gawain's and Westfall's ideas sound pretty good to me. I could do with either. Although, I'd still like to remotely trigger the bomb timer.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 09, 2008, 07:45:23 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 09, 2008, 05:13:03 PM
yap.
this way, the map designer can adjust it better, the mercs have a time bonus against aggro players that plant the bomb when it's obvious, but a harder time if the bomb was planted unsuspectedly.
Wait, what? How will the game know if the bomb was planted unsuspectedly or obviously? You mean if it was planted directly that is aggro? And if it was remotely triggered it is stealth? Not totally getting it either. Explain please.
Oh, kok4fan just answered it. It sounds good I guess. Both Gawain's and Westfall's ideas sound pretty good to me. I could do with either. Although, I'd still like to remotely trigger the bomb timer.
I think what he means is that if the spy planted the bomb in a manner that alerts the merc, the merc would have the full bomb countdown to act on - while if the spy plants silently, the merc will not know of the bomb until, say, 10 seconds have passed.
No, the game doesn't have to "know" anything. He's just suggesting that the mercs should only get the "BOMB PLACED" after a certain timespan.
Like, the bomb timer is 30sek., but the mercs not alerted until it reaches 20. That way, if a spy gets to the bomb silently, without the merc knowing, he will get those extra seconds as a reward. If the spy was aggro, however, the merc would be there right away, knowing that he probably placed the bomb.
Quote from: BurningDeath on January 09, 2008, 08:04:35 PM
No, the game doesn't have to "know" anything. He's just suggesting that the mercs should only get the "BOMB PLACED" after a certain timespan.
Like, the bomb timer is 30sek., but the mercs not alerted until it reaches 20. That way, if a spy gets to the bomb silently, without the merc knowing, he will get those extra seconds as a reward.
This makes perfect sense
If the spy was aggro, however, the merc would be there right away, knowing that he probably placed the bomb.
This does not. The game still has to decide if the merc knew you were there to give you the proper countdown timer. How does it know that you were aggro?
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 09, 2008, 08:21:22 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on January 09, 2008, 08:04:35 PM
No, the game doesn't have to "know" anything. He's just suggesting that the mercs should only get the "BOMB PLACED" after a certain timespan.
Like, the bomb timer is 30sek., but the mercs not alerted until it reaches 20. That way, if a spy gets to the bomb silently, without the merc knowing, he will get those extra seconds as a reward.
This makes perfect sense
If the spy was aggro, however, the merc would be there right away, knowing that he probably placed the bomb.
This does not. The game still has to decide if the merc knew you were there to give you the proper countdown timer. How does it know that you were aggro?
Ehh dude ... why does the game have know anything?
It's simple .. if the spy was running in smashing flash and smokenades, the merc will be right after him. If the spy places the bomb now, the merc knows it and can defuse it quickly, without needing to rely on the alert-message.
If the spy was stealthy and sneaked in, leaving the mercs clueless, he gets those extra seconds, unless the merc happens to come by when he's patrolling. You get the point?
It'd be reward patrolling aswell as stealthy spies, but sure as hell be hard to balance out.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 09, 2008, 08:21:22 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on January 09, 2008, 08:04:35 PM
No, the game doesn't have to "know" anything. He's just suggesting that the mercs should only get the "BOMB PLACED" after a certain timespan.
Like, the bomb timer is 30sek., but the mercs not alerted until it reaches 20. That way, if a spy gets to the bomb silently, without the merc knowing, he will get those extra seconds as a reward.
This makes perfect sense
If the spy was aggro, however, the merc would be there right away, knowing that he probably placed the bomb.
This does not. The game still has to decide if the merc knew you were there to give you the proper countdown timer. How does it know that you were aggro?
The merc will suspect the spy planted the bomb, if he's agro, so he would find it even before the timer is shown. However if the spy planted the bomb stealthily, the merc wouldn't suspect it and would be surprised by the timer. The countdown is the same in both cases.
AH, that's what I thought. I thought it would be something else, never mind. Yes, that would be great.
I think it will give more semi-aggro spies, since they can relocate to another obj while the stealth-bomb is ticking away. Unless they can carry only 1 bomb at the time, like PT.
Quote from: frvge on January 09, 2008, 09:55:02 PM
I think it will give more semi-aggro spies, since they can relocate to another obj while the stealth-bomb is ticking away. Unless they can carry only 1 bomb at the time, like PT.
Well I'd say you can only have one active bomb at a time, but I wouldn't have them have to run back to the ammo box to get bombs.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 24, 2007, 02:21:18 AM
Well yes, that is true. But the faster the merc is made, the faster the spy must be made. My point is that if escape moves are coupled with ss it wouldn't be unbalanced if the moves are slower than in DA. It would just make it easier for spies to get places without doing a bunch of button presses.
I disagree, this may sound noob like, but its harder to shoot a spy who's flipping up a ceiling than a spy who has to hang on ledge to get to ceiling. (im not sure if ive put it well enough so an example will do:P)
On club, in lunch spys has to jump from floor to grab onto ceiling ledge, and his WHOLE body is hanging there, so its piss easy, whereas if he flipped, u have a smaller surface area to hit, as hes all curled up, (during escape move) thus making it harder to hit him.
Well, it's the same speed as someone who jumped on the ledge and went up. All that the escape move would do is make it easier to pull off and there aren't any ways you can mess up.
just fix the ledge-grab-hitbox and we're set.
Well, the ledge grab hitbox is ok atm, but the grab-ledge-first-and-then-slowly-pull-up is a bit annoying.
The hitbox is totally flawed right now. You can fall right in front of a ledge and you'll just keep falling.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 15, 2008, 04:29:41 PM
The hitbox is totally flawed right now. You can fall right in front of a ledge and you'll just keep falling.
mmmmm...not really. If you are in slow walk it will catch. If you miss while you are falling, its because you weren't close enough to the ledge.
SOMETIMES the spy will bounce off the ledge instead of grab it. Sometimes the spy will grab it when you don't want him to..and then climb up the ledge. Its very touchy I've noticed.
Maybe I exaggerated how flawed it is. But like you said, you'll bounce off of it and what not. So, yeah, it is flawed but maybe not "totally flawed"
Only time I have ever missed a ledge was either lag or my own fault.....
fixing of the jumping over a rail into rail grab would be nice, it almost never works for me
I think that if you hold the button down you should swing over the ledge and grab the rail. I am positive someone has mentioned this before and it would be AWESOME. A totally useful move that would be easy to do. But don't make it automatically grab on after you swing over because sometimes you want to jump over a rail and escape.
And you are right binary, a lot of the times I missed a ledge were probably due to lag.
right, so if u tap it u should jump/swing, and if u hold u should grab