Project Stealth

To kinda help the dev's a bit , i decided to make this poll, but personally I think it shouldn't but Discuss.

Where is the choice for:  "I don't think it will have that big of an impact on gameplay" ???

Or the, "don't care" choice.

It's not going to have a huge impact on the way the game is played if maps are designed well.

It has a big impact.  CT maps for the most part were designed well.  You can't just make 10-ft thick walls around every area that has lasers, just to prevent chaff.  I don't know what should happen.

Not that big.  Most of the places you use chaff through walls you could also easily bank a chaff nade on the other side of the wall.  You could bank a chaff nade so that it is on the side of the wall that the device is, the majority of the time you could do this.

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 02:11:52 AM
Where is the choice for:  "I don't think it will have that big of an impact on gameplay" ???

Or the, "don't care" choice.

It's not going to have a huge impact on the way the game is played if maps are designed well.

These option would be great if they didn't want any answer...
Yes, no easy simple

I don't know if this is easy in UE but couldn't you just do a vector between the player and the chaff and see if there are any obstacles between them?

I say yes.  If I have to choose.  But ONLY to a certain extent.  It would work through thin walls.  If this is possible with UE3.  That way the map creator could choose which walls he/she wants spies to be able to chaff through.  These walls would be the same thickness as walls that you can see through with thermal vision.

No. If you want to chaff security on the other side off the wall, you should have to wait a second till the chaff explodes there.

No, a smoke/flash grenade doesn't go through walls eather (in real-life), why would a chaff grenade do it then?

Rethoric question, don't answer.

Eww, a realism argument.

it's really a very difficult balance and gameplay question. imo in ct chaff allows too much free movement.
i have another not so dramatic suggestion:
- proxy mines explodes almost instanly and the deadly radius is the trigger radius
- laser mines explode instantly
- slightely bigger chaff radius, especially vertically; effect on merc only in chaff cloud
- quick-dropped chaff only works through walls in a very short radius around it
- chaff shot with ss works through walls in the full radius
- particles don't go through walls
- the emp effect without particles only works for 3s, the emp effect where particles are for the time it does in ct

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 02:24:22 AM
Not that big.  Most of the places you use chaff through walls you could also easily bank a chaff nade on the other side of the wall.  You could bank a chaff nade so that it is on the side of the wall that the device is, the majority of the time you could do this.

But you can't do that while running around with a merc on your tail. That's the whole point of the change: a careful spy will have the time to bank a chaff off the wall and get by the trap; an uncareful spy will not. This also affects proxies, so the whole chaff-through-wall thing negates the tactic of chasing spies into your mines.

I don't think that chaff should work through walls at all.

Not even walls that the map makers would like to let you be able to?  That would solve a lot of the balance issues with chaff because the map makers themselves could decide where and where not to let this happen.  And guys, don't bring up the "it doesn't work in real life so it shouldn't work in PS" argument.  It's a game, not a sim.

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 05:04:00 PM
Not even walls that the map makers would like to let you be able to?  That would solve a lot of the balance issues with chaff because the map makers themselves could decide where and where not to let this happen.  And guys, don't bring up the "it doesn't work in real life so it shouldn't work in PS" argument.  It's a game, not a sim.

Okay, if there are specific walls that you could, then I'd be okay with that. However, it might needlessly make the game more complex.

Chaff should not work through walls at all. You can easily get through clubhouse without much trouble as it is right now.

Spekkio is right. Adding special walls that chaff can go through would just make it harder for newer players, and easier for vets. There is no reason it should go through any wall at all.

If there is a general rule that you can follow for walls that can be chaffed through, then it won't be hard to learn at all.

I would probably go for objects that you can see through in thermal, because they aren't very dense, and it would be easy to know at a glance.

Quote from: MR.Mic on February 15, 2008, 05:49:16 PM
I would probably go for objects that you can see through in thermal, because they aren't very dense, and it would be easy to know at a glance.

How many of those objects are going to be included in the game though? There were a few in pt, but very little in CT. The only one I can think of is those board looking walls in hospital. They fit the construction theme, but really, nothing else.

If a few of these walls are in the game, fine. I just don't think it is necessary for chaff to be able to go threw them. Especially since you can see where the mine is coming from if you look on thermal.

another idea would be to boost mines, make the proxy trigger radius all deadly and allow laser mines to be placed in all angles. this way you can place them a little more away from corners, entrances etc so that they can't be quick-chaffed.

Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 07:08:52 PM
another idea would be to boost mines, make the proxy trigger radius all deadly and allow laser mines to be placed in all angles. this way you can place them a little more away from corners, entrances etc so that they can't be quick-chaffed.

Mines are already really strong as it is. It is better to tackle a problem head on, than to make other things adapt to the problem.

Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 07:08:52 PM
another idea would be to boost mines, make the proxy trigger radius all deadly and allow laser mines to be placed in all angles. this way you can place them a little more away from corners, entrances etc so that they can't be quick-chaffed.

Uh huh. So instead of fixing overpowered chaff, you buff everything else to the point that you have no choice but to take chaff. That's a great solution!

well i don't know about you, but at least 50% of the times i die from mines it's because of soundloss or bugmines in textures (or some other bullshit like mines going off despite slow-mode). i'm also pretty sure placing mines to look halfway around the corner won't work in ps which is already a huge mine nerf.

Quote from: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 05:45:23 PM
Chaff should not work through walls at all. You can easily get through clubhouse without much trouble as it is right now.

Spekkio is right. Adding special walls that chaff can go through would just make it harder for newer players, and easier for vets. There is no reason it should go through any wall at all.

Harder for new players?  You actually are proving ME right lol.  Making ALL walls so that chaff doesn't go through will make it harder for EVERYONE, and MUCH harder for new players.  Don't make it sound like some thin walls will make it bazillion times harder either.

Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 08:17:27 PM

Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 07:08:52 PM
another idea would be to boost mines, make the proxy trigger radius all deadly and allow laser mines to be placed in all angles. this way you can place them a little more away from corners, entrances etc so that they can't be quick-chaffed.

Uh huh. So instead of fixing overpowered chaff, you buff everything else to the point that you have no choice but to take chaff. That's a great solution!

:-\ great job Nox-Rambo   ???

Yeah, and lets make smoke grenades toxic and deadly to mercs so they have to take gas mask.  Why buff mines, everyone takes them most of the time (hence my gasmask example) .  Especially with a nerf to chaff, mines will be all but useless depending on the place the user plants them of course.

Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 02:13:44 PM
it's really a very difficult balance and gameplay question. imo in ct chaff allows too much free movement.
i have another not so dramatic suggestion:
- proxy mines explodes almost instanly and the deadly radius is the trigger radius
- laser mines explode instantly
- slightely bigger chaff radius, especially vertically; effect on merc only in chaff cloud
- quick-dropped chaff only works through walls in a very short radius around it
- chaff shot with ss works through walls in the full radius
- particles don't go through walls
- the emp effect without particles only works for 3s, the emp effect where particles are for the time it does in ct

That sound's fair... I like the idea execpt for "chaff shot with ss works through walls in the full radius" I understand why but it can't be logic

Why not just keep it the same? It isn't realistic and is the only thing that works through walls. It would probably be a lot more difficult to get things done on a map if chaff wasn't so strong. Taking away the aspect that it goes through walls will actually be a big boost for mercs imo.

Absolutely.  But if it were up to the map makers then it could be balanced and still have its uses.

Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 08:17:27 PM
Uh huh. So instead of fixing overpowered chaff, you buff everything else to the point that you have no choice but to take chaff. That's a great solution!

Quote from: AgentX_003 on February 15, 2008, 11:54:30 PM
:-\ great job Nox-Rambo   ???

you guys should reread my posts. it's not that mines will be that strong in ps:
-no soundloss
-no corner overlapping placement (or will it stay? if not it's a huge nerf)
-no bug mines in textures (small nerf for advanced players if there's no sound loss on the server)
-no bugs like mines blowing up in slow mode, when chaffed etc
-other stuff like better camo allowing safer mine removal

spekkio wanted to reduce the trigger radius of proxies and remove the delay of laser mines anyways. i also suggested changes for chaff (test-subject quoted them).

Gawain, your solution is overly complex.

Quote from: Spekkio on February 16, 2008, 05:53:53 PM
Gawain, your solution is overly complex.

not really because changing  the mines is necessary anyways. the only thing you need to change about chaff then is lowering the radious of the emp effect that goes trough walls so that it still allows disabling every mine/trap combination but not for aggro players, eg you place a mine not directly next to a door, but 0.3-0.5m away from the corner.

Quote from: Gawain on February 16, 2008, 12:55:57 PM
-no bug mines in textures (small nerf for advanced players if there's no sound loss on the server)

Gawain thet's friggin outraging how you call these cheater basterts "advanced players".
I mean, you treat people that don't aggree with you the way you do, and now you say that bug-users are advanced players?? WTF?!
And then again comes the question: why call a cheater an advanced player, if you're an adv.?
That doesn't make any sense except if you use bug-mines, in which case you would be just a cheater. ARE YOU, GAWAIN?? ARE YOU?!

EDIT: shit i just realised that i started a flamewar -.-

Oh, come on, show me the "advanced player" that doesn't use bugs - that never uses crouch-roll-crouch, never EMF-whore of use EAX, etc etc.

- I can't do crc
- I don't know HOW to put bug mines
- I don't have a EAX 3 supporting soundcard.
Me and all my noobness.

If you don't crc...that's your own damn fault.

Quote from: Gawain on February 16, 2008, 06:26:52 PM

Quote from: Spekkio on February 16, 2008, 05:53:53 PM
Gawain, your solution is overly complex.

not really because changing  the mines is necessary anyways. the only thing you need to change about chaff then is lowering the radious of the emp effect that goes trough walls so that it still allows disabling every mine/trap combination but not for aggro players, eg you place a mine not directly next to a door, but 0.3-0.5m away from the corner.

No, your solution is overly complex because you suggest that if you employ chaff by doing A, then it acts like B, and if you employ it by using C, then it acts like D.

I can say I've used bugs to my advantage.  But not all the time like some people.  I've used maybe some spots where the mine doesn't show itself all the way but that's not cheating, that's knowledge of how to place a mine really.  I really don't think mines need a boost.  They are meant to kill uncareful players and they already do, sometimes.

Your solution is pretty complex Gawain, why not just let the map makers design it how they want to?  I think the map makers should be able to choose where they want chaff to be able to go through walls on their own map.  Don't you?

Yeah, and show in the map screen if if lets chaff work through walls.

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:19:17 PM
They are meant to kill uncareful players and they already do, sometimes.

nope, they are meant to slow down spies and to block passages when the merc is chasing a spy.

Quote from: Gawain on February 16, 2008, 11:29:51 PM

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:19:17 PM
They are meant to kill uncareful players and they already do, sometimes.

nope, they are meant to slow down spies and to block passages when the merc is chasing a spy.

They are meant for both, okay?? The point is that it WORKS and it's USEFUL.
Now the 'how do I use it??" thing is up to the players.

Quote from: Gawain on February 16, 2008, 11:29:51 PM

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:19:17 PM
They are meant to kill uncareful players and they already do, sometimes.

nope, they are meant to slow down spies and to block passages when the merc is chasing a spy.

All I can say to you is prove it. Why do mines kill players if they are only meant to slow them down and block passages? Why don't mines just shoot some huge ass forcefield out of them? Because they are meant to kill.

you won't kill any good players with "hidden" mines unless there's sound loss, mines in textures, etc. you gotta chase them into the mines.

Quote from: Gawain on February 16, 2008, 11:55:00 PM
you won't kill any good players with "hidden" mines unless there's sound loss, mines in textures, etc. you gotta chase them into the mines.

That's funny. I seem to get mine kills all the time. I must be a noob.

I agree with Ion. All we know is that mines are meant to kill, no one knows what the developers intentions for them were. There's a lot of things in CT that probably didn't work out as they expected.

Quote from: Cyntrox on February 16, 2008, 06:52:54 PM
Oh, come on, show me the "advanced player" that doesn't use bugs - that never uses crouch-roll-crouch, never EMF-whore of use EAX, etc etc.

For whatever reason, some bugs get accepted by the community and some don't. If someone uses the anti-ledge grab glitch to cheat you out of your ledge grab, people call you a cheater. If someone else does crc, vision glitch or the tech jump, they call you an advanced player.

EAX actually don't really factor in as a cheat bug because it's just a setting in the game. It's a broken peice of code for sure and as powerful as wall hacking, but I wouldn't really put it in the same area conceptually as something like crouch/roll/crouch.

There are two issues I have with advanced techniques. The first is what I call the "Secret handshake" factor. That's the idea that there's no way you'd know about something unless you learned it from someone else, or just spent a long time screwing around. Crouch/roll/crouch for instance was like that. You never knew if you were making sound unless you had a buddy be merc and stand there and test stuff. So that sucked. Vision glitch and tech jump fall under the same things.

The second thing is just bad controls. If you want people to do X and you're not in combat, chances are you should let them. This isn't a game about walking from point A to point B, and that shouldn't even be that hard. Making people do weird keypress rituals like crc while walking is just a pain. Games don't benefit from having bad controls, ever. Despite how awesome people may think it is that you have to master all these weird timing rituals that have nothing to do with your opponents. Esoteric controls just frustrate newbies and get them to quit the game. Project Stealth should be about tactics, not fighting bad control schemes. If you think spies should be able to move faster and be stealthy, then let them do that. It's really that simple.

I agree, my point was simply that flaming someone for doing it in CT is stupid - it shouldn't even be in PS.

QuoteYou never knew if you were making sound unless you had a buddy be merc and stand there and test stuff. So that sucked. Vision glitch and tech jump fall under the same things.

Your singling out of CRC is a bit unfair here because there is no documentation about how the sound reticle works at all.

Quote from: Spekkio on February 17, 2008, 12:48:40 AM
Your singling out of CRC is a bit unfair here because there is no documentation about how the sound reticle works at all.

Well, I single it out because I figured out the sound reticule after a bit from playing, but I never learned CRC till it was mentioned on these forums, and I played CT on PC for like 2 years as well as PT since it was released. Never knew about CRC.

I knew about it since ... mid 2007?? And i still can't do it -.-

Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 17, 2008, 01:32:48 AM
I knew about it since ... mid 2007?? And i still can't do it -.-

How hard is it to hit C-Q-C while crouch walking?

It's not, yet every time i try it, the merc just knows im there and i get served my brain in a bowl.

Quote from: Gawain on February 16, 2008, 11:29:51 PM

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:19:17 PM
They are meant to kill uncareful players and they already do, sometimes.

nope, they are meant to slow down spies and to block passages when the merc is chasing a spy.

Lol they aren't meant to do anything, but it is more often useful for killing uncareful people who just want to run around the map without a care in the world.  As for slowing spies down, it doesn't really do that.  Just chaff it and the fast spy can keep on truckin.  I used the wrong words in my post btw.  I didn't mean that they are MEANT to do something.

I say NO despite the fact that I use chaff through walls and realise that it will be a huge nerf for spies (especially aggro )

Chaffs WILL go through walls as long as we keep an effect similar to the one in CT. Making it so all those little particles collide with meshes/bsp around them is a stupid idea in regards to performance. You get two or three chaff nades on top of each other, all colliding with walls and you get 5 Frames Per Second for every in the game... despit their computer's power.

if we make the paritcle go through walls but not the effect, then people will complain about BUT MY CHAFF was there it should have effected it. So yeah, as far as I can see, there is no way of getting around it unless we change the whole concept of a chaff nade to something else.

Quote from: Zedblade on February 17, 2008, 11:25:52 PM
Making it so all those little particles collide with meshes/bsp around them is a stupid idea in regards to performance

Yes it is. That's why we clip the whole bounding box, not cull individual particles.

Quote from: Zedblade on February 17, 2008, 11:25:52 PM
Chaffs WILL go through walls as long as we keep an effect similar to the one in CT. Making it so all those little particles collide with meshes/bsp around them is a stupid idea in regards to performance. You get two or three chaff nades on top of each other, all colliding with walls and you get 5 Frames Per Second for every in the game... despit their computer's power.

if we make the paritcle go through walls but not the effect, then people will complain about BUT MY CHAFF was there it should have effected it. So yeah, as far as I can see, there is no way of getting around it unless we change the whole concept of a chaff nade to something else.

I would much rather have that instead of the state now. The mechanism now is retarded and broken.

Quote from: Zedblade on February 17, 2008, 11:25:52 PM
Making it so all those little particles collide with meshes/bsp around them is a stupid idea in regards to performance

Can't you cut the animation/mesh whatever of the chaff on the part of it that touches the wall??

EMP nade for the win. ;)

But I still think it should go through walls, some walls atleast. 

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 18, 2008, 02:51:32 AM
EMP nade for the win. ;)

But I still think it should go through walls, some walls atleast. 

simple solution : have it so you cant chaff outside of the wall but while ur walking in the door..shoot it inside =) .

What? English please.

It can't be that hard to make a particle that disappears when it collides with a surface. I swear that was an option in the tutorial videos.

Zedblade does that mean that cams will also go through walls and doors ?

Quote from: neth on February 18, 2008, 07:45:50 AM
Zedblade does that mean that cams will also go through walls and doors ?

They haven't in the past. Why fix something thats not broken?

The reason why it would take so much resources to do it that way is because there are so many individual particles in a chaff that each has to be calculated - one, or ten, cam(s) is not a problem

Quote from: neth on February 18, 2008, 07:45:50 AM
Zedblade does that mean that cams will also go through walls and doors ?

This is a good point: the cam gas clips through geometry, but you cannot be cammed through walls and floors. On the other hand, smoke clips through geometry and does affect mercs.

No item should affect people through walls, unless it is a specific type of wall where it should work (ie fencing).

Quote from: Cyntrox on February 18, 2008, 04:21:01 PM
The reason why it would take so much resources to do it that way is because there are so many individual particles in a chaff that each has to be calculated - one, or ten, cam(s) is not a problem

One can make chaff to be a whole.

chaff is the only thing in which the effect goes through a wall.  Again, only walls the map makers want them to.

Quote from: Overstatement on February 17, 2008, 11:42:54 PM

Quote from: Zedblade on February 17, 2008, 11:25:52 PM
Making it so all those little particles collide with meshes/bsp around them is a stupid idea in regards to performance

Yes it is. That's why we clip the whole bounding box, not cull individual particles.

I assume you mean have them dissappear when they hit the bounding box. However, since we have NO idea where a chaff nade will be thrown the bounding box will have to dynamically match the environment around the spot perfectly, or else there still will be tons of chaff particle going through props and walls...

Quote from: neth on February 18, 2008, 07:45:50 AM
Zedblade does that mean that cams will also go through walls and doors ?

They already do in Ct, it just doesn't effect anything. Like spekkio said, but smoke does. We need to make in consistant. So if Smoke effects things through walls, then everything should, and vise versa.

Hmz, you can probably do a few quick traces to see if you hit a wall and else there's a max.

Quote from: Zedblade on February 19, 2008, 07:45:19 AM

Quote from: Overstatement on February 17, 2008, 11:42:54 PM

Quote from: Zedblade on February 17, 2008, 11:25:52 PM
Making it so all those little particles collide with meshes/bsp around them is a stupid idea in regards to performance

Yes it is. That's why we clip the whole bounding box, not cull individual particles.

I assume you mean have them dissappear when they hit the bounding box. However, since we have NO idea where a chaff nade will be thrown the bounding box will have to dynamically match the environment around the spot perfectly, or else there still will be tons of chaff particle going through props and walls...

Good point. We can clip it but since the bounding box is a BOX, it'd look pretty funny when it's suppose to go around the corner and doesn't. If you know what I mean...

Correct, that's the main problem...
Although you can probably spawn another box with it where it should be, I dont think that advanced stuff is worth our free time.

Can't the Visual chaff (all the particles as a whole) be just an animated mesh or something??
Then you can spawn it say, next to a corner, and delete the part of the mesh that's on the other side of the wall.

I dunno if it's gonna work, just throwing ideas.