Here's a controversial one for you:
HBS should drain energy from the gun similar to camo, perhaps even at a faster rate.
Why?
This device is silent (for the most part), works through any obstacle, and can be used infinitely. The only "drawback," if you could call it one, is that you have to have your gun out. However, that's usually an advantage because it allows people to more easily quick-cam the mercs. The only real way for a merc to neutralize or counter it is...well, there isn't one, hence the suggestion.
Discuss.
I never thought about this. I think it should drain slower than camo, for the sole purpose that this gadget is useful for following the merc out of its radius, and then hacking.
The camo timer, as it stands now, is plenty of time for you to observe a merc. There should probably be some restriction that you can't use it unless your energy is full, to avoid taking out/putting away constantly to get around the timer.
OR taking it out drains X ammount of energy to "start it up" and less well its actually out
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 05:51:12 PM
The camo timer, as it stands now, is plenty of time for you to observe a merc. There should probably be some restriction that you can't use it unless your energy is full, to avoid taking out/putting away constantly to get around the timer.
But then you are stuck with a very low energy level, can't use camo, and will have very limited shots at the merc. I don't think it should be drastically slower, maybe 1.5 times?
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 05:55:01 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 05:51:12 PM
The camo timer, as it stands now, is plenty of time for you to observe a merc. There should probably be some restriction that you can't use it unless your energy is full, to avoid taking out/putting away constantly to get around the timer.
But then you are stuck with a very low energy level, can't use camo, and will have very limited shots at the merc.
Yea, that's the point. What's the consequence of using it now?
i don't think hbs should drain energy/time, but energy/use.
how about not having hbs scanning all the time when out and the player can press the use button to make a scan in a certain direction which drains some energy or the scan happens, say, every 5s?
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 06:41:50 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 05:55:01 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 05:51:12 PM
The camo timer, as it stands now, is plenty of time for you to observe a merc. There should probably be some restriction that you can't use it unless your energy is full, to avoid taking out/putting away constantly to get around the timer.
But then you are stuck with a very low energy level, can't use camo, and will have very limited shots at the merc.
Yea, that's the point. What's the consequence of using it now?
There isn't one. My idea would be to make the consequence less severe than your consequence. I think it should have less of a drain because of the time it takes to hack, so you can cover your partner effectively with it.
I don't really think it should drain anything. Maybe the switch to cam shouldn't be as fast? Maybe there should be some restriction there, but it shouldn't drain anything. That would essentially kill the gadget.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 05:45:14 PM
The only "drawback," if you could call it one, is that you have to have your gun out. However, that's usually an advantage because it allows people to more easily quick-cam the mercs. The only real way for a merc to neutralize or counter it is...well, there isn't one, hence the suggestion.
you forget the very limited range which makes it pretty weak against sniping positions, especially without eax superhearing. so the counter for mercs is to just stay out of the radious which works quite fine on maps like factory.
also having to draw your gun and look around with it is a pretty good nerf as you either move quite slowly scanning every 2s or don't know shit about the merc's position while moving.
it also gives away your position if a merc is within a certain radius and you're using no snares.
quickcams won't be any real problem without host advantage and that much lag (and hopefully a cut of the amount of stickies).
i'm not that sure if hbs really needs a nerf as bullets are quite strong and hard to counter, too. it's just that most players (especially the ones that started with ct and not pt) prefer hbs without ever having mastered bullets (for instance, sithduke is quite a good bullet player).
I say no. It has drawbacks. The fact that you light up on emf and that you have to completely slow down to use it make it harder to use in some situations. You can't just sit around all day with it out because it has no drawbacks. In fact, you have to put it away when you see a merc just for the fact that if he switches to EMF you are going to be found. Plus you have to slow down. If you are trying to get from point A to point B, and you want to search for mercs, you have to stop, do a 360 turn, and keep moving.
And don't forget that the reason it makes it different than spy bullets is that it has unlimited use. Why make them more similar than they already are? There needs to be differences in gadgets so they have the ups and downs to using one instead of the other.
Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 11:31:54 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 05:45:14 PM
The only "drawback," if you could call it one, is that you have to have your gun out. However, that's usually an advantage because it allows people to more easily quick-cam the mercs. The only real way for a merc to neutralize or counter it is...well, there isn't one, hence the suggestion.
you forget the very limited range which makes it pretty weak against sniping positions, especially without eax superhearing. so the counter for mercs is to just stay out of the radious which works quite fine on maps like factory.
The range is pretty far (you can detect a merc from across the room in digger), and this "counter" is highly map and weapon dependent.
Quotealso having to draw your gun and look around with it is a pretty good nerf as you either move quite slowly scanning every 2s or don't know shit about the merc's position while moving.
This drawback is also shared by other gadgets which fire from the gun, yet they are also limited in number. So what makes the HBS so special that you should be able to use it infinitely?
Quoteit also gives away your position if a merc is within a certain radius and you're using no snares.
Again, other gadgets make noise, and louder ones at that, yet they are limited in number. What makes the HBS so special that it should be infinite?
Quotequickcams won't be any real problem without host advantage and that much lag (and hopefully a cut of the amount of stickies).
Quick cams still work without lag.
Quotei'm not that sure if hbs really needs a nerf as bullets are quite strong and hard to counter, too. it's just that most players (especially the ones that started with ct and not pt) prefer hbs without ever having mastered bullets (for instance, sithduke is quite a good bullet player).
Bullets give away your position, can be removed by the merc, and are limited to 5 per life. The HB sensor is mostly silent, cannot be removed or dodged, and has unlimited use. Hence the thread aimed at taking away the unlimited use.
QuoteThe fact that you light up on emf and that you have to completely slow down to use it make it harder to use in some situations.
EVERY gadget lights you up on emf, not just HBS. But other gadgets also have other limits to their use, such as limited number and a way for the merc to bypass its effects. Only the HBS can be used infinitely and without any way for the merc to counter it.
How about having hbs use 'charges'??
Say the Personal Energy Unit provides a pretty stable current of electricity, but it can also give a powerful jolt to the HBS gun addon, so it can detect any life within 15-20 meters on a 30-35 degree angle. Every time the Jolt function is used, the PEU burns out the cables a little.
After about 10-15 uses it stops to provide Jolts, because it could burn/ explode the cables/ PEU and just force all electronic systems to shut down, and since we don't want that, we lock the ability to use the last Jolt.
LoL, I made up a story to just say that it should have 10-15 uses.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 16, 2008, 02:21:07 AM
Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 11:31:54 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 05:45:14 PM
The only "drawback," if you could call it one, is that you have to have your gun out. However, that's usually an advantage because it allows people to more easily quick-cam the mercs. The only real way for a merc to neutralize or counter it is...well, there isn't one, hence the suggestion.
you forget the very limited range which makes it pretty weak against sniping positions, especially without eax superhearing. so the counter for mercs is to just stay out of the radious which works quite fine on maps like factory.
The range is pretty far (you can detect a merc from across the room in digger), and this "counter" is highly map and weapon dependent.
Maps will be bigger...a lot bigger. So the radar just doesn't need to adjust at all.
Quote
Quotealso having to draw your gun and look around with it is a pretty good nerf as you either move quite slowly scanning every 2s or don't know shit about the merc's position while moving.
This drawback is also shared by other gadgets which fire from the gun, yet they are also limited in number. So what makes the HBS so special that you should be able to use it infinitely?
Why can we use radar infinitely? Its just an electronic device built into the SS whereas camo, gasmask, and substance gadgets have the limits.
QuoteQuoteit also gives away your position if a merc is within a certain radius and you're using no snares.
Again, other gadgets make noise, and louder ones at that, yet they are limited in number. What makes the HBS so special that it should be infinite?
^
QuoteQuotequickcams won't be any real problem without host advantage and that much lag (and hopefully a cut of the amount of stickies).
Quick cams still work without lag.
There should be some nerf to switching so fast to do quick cams. I don't exactly know how, but its both cheap and unrealistic.
QuoteQuotei'm not that sure if hbs really needs a nerf as bullets are quite strong and hard to counter, too. it's just that most players (especially the ones that started with ct and not pt) prefer hbs without ever having mastered bullets (for instance, sithduke is quite a good bullet player).
Bullets give away your position, can be removed by the merc, and are limited to 5 per life. The HB sensor is mostly silent, cannot be removed or dodged, and has unlimited use. Hence the thread aimed at taking away the unlimited use.
Bullets have some over powering abilities. There are places in maps where you can just land bullets to show where mercs are in several different rooms. Great placement. Granted they run out of time.
QuoteQuoteThe fact that you light up on emf and that you have to completely slow down to use it make it harder to use in some situations.
EVERY gadget lights you up on emf, not just HBS. But other gadgets also have other limits to their use, such as limited number and a way for the merc to bypass its effects. Only the HBS can be used infinitely and without any way for the merc to counter it.
The thing is, HBS already has its flaw: time. It takes a sec to pull out and put away. If you're not careful you can easily get charged with you holding it. You also can't see behind you anymore, which means you have to do a 360 in order to get a full pan view (not hard on PC, I know). It still leaves your back exposed. Mercs already get so much with having a double backpack, why should there be a limit to the HBS? If you really want something to change, it should have a battery life that doesn't effect your shots from the SS. Refilled when you die of course, drains slower or equal to gasmask.
I doubt anyone can stand here and tell me that they've never been charged while scanning the area with hbs. It happens to the best of us. And while it may not happen very often, it definitely can get you killed if you are not careful. Other gadgets can't really do that. They can unveil your position but they don't necessarily get you killed. Even if you don't ever get killed while using hbs, it still slows you down. There is a reason why gadgets have a big contrast in their features. It's to make the gameplay and gadget choosing more interesting.
Each gadget has their ups and downs, you have to sacrifice something to get something else, it's the way it goes. If hbs receives a limited amount of use it becomes more similar to the spy bullet. One of the downs to using spy bullets is that they are limited, the up to using hbs is that there is no limit. One of the downs to using hbs is that it slows you down to use it and you light up on EMF while you make your pretty ballerina 360, and one of the ups to spy bullet is that it takes minimal time to use and deploy and it hardly slows you down.
You could kind of call it a system of checks and balances.
spekkio, you can't compare hbs to other gadgets, you can only compare it to bullets.
if you don't play too passive like toal newbs you will have to taze the merc every once in a while anyways so it's not really a problem to track the mercs without giving away your position where you wouldn't with hbs, even for stealth players.
bullets also work through walls. you can easily shoot a bullet 1 or 2s before you start hacking in the most situations so it doesn't give away your position if the mercs have no bullet on them.
btw, it would be fun if you could shoot a bullet at your spy mate so that he works as a running radar.
the only real counter to bullets is having them removed by your mate which is also quite map-dependant (just like hbs's range). on maps with no central point bullets are quite strong.
the good bullet spots are also quite map-dependant just like the possibility to easily deploy them easily from the very beginning (like on steel or polar).
i also think that map layout should be more like factory where a certain amount of stealth is required.
it's also total bullshit to make hbs drain energy/time as it's quite fast to scan 360Ã,° and with less lag you won't need more than 2 ss shots to taze a merc anyways. the only thing it does is prohibiting the use of camo right afterwars.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 11:40:32 PM
I say no. It has drawbacks. The fact that you light up on emf and that you have to completely slow down to use it make it harder to use in some situations. You can't just sit around all day with it out because it has no drawbacks. In fact, you have to put it away when you see a merc just for the fact that if he switches to EMF you are going to be found. Plus you have to slow down. If you are trying to get from point A to point B, and you want to search for mercs, you have to stop, do a 360 turn, and keep moving.
And don't forget that the reason it makes it different than spy bullets is that it has unlimited use. Why make them more similar than they already are? There needs to be differences in gadgets so they have the ups and downs to using one instead of the other.
Right on, I totally agree.
Quotespekkio, you can't compare hbs to other gadgets, you can only compare it to bullets.
I did compare it to bullets:
Bullets:
-Require you to draw your gun to use it
-Make you show up on EMF
-Require you to slow down to draw your gun
-Make an extremely loud noise-Has limited range
-Doesn't even work when the mercs stand still (although let's hope this gets fixed in PS)
-Can be actively shot out or removed by mercs
-Have a limited duration
-Are limited to 5 per live
-Allows you to hack the merc's comms (this is a questionable advantage at best, since the spy's comms are the ones you'd really want to hear)HBS:
-Requires you to draw your gun to use it
-Makes you show up on EMF
-Require you to slow down to draw your gun
-Makes a very quiet noise that can only be heard with EAX + close range-Has limited range
-Works whether the mercs move or not
-Cannot be actively disabled by mercs
-Has unlimited duration
-Has unlimited amount of use
-Doesn't allow you to hack the merc's comms(highlighted differences)
Yes, there are drawbacks to the HBS, but my point is that the drawbacks that it has are shared by pretty much every other gadget, including bullets, and then some. Since there really wouldn't be any viable way to give the mercs a way to stop the HBS from working, the only thing I'm asking to be fixed is the unlimited use. Nothing more.
Quoteit's also total bullshit to make hbs drain energy/time as it's quite fast to scan 360Ã,° and with less lag you won't need more than 2 ss shots to taze a merc anyways.
First, that's why I said that it maybe should drain energy faster than camo. Second, requiring the energy to be full for it to work would prevent you from using the HBS in succession too quickly.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 16, 2008, 06:01:30 PM
requiring the energy to be full for it to work would prevent you from using the HBS in succession too quickly.
now THIS change makes perfect sense, especially with a boosted camo. aggro tactics would require bullets again, too.
maybe the range of hbs should depend on the battery status, so the longer you scan / the more you are out of energy because of playing aggro or using camo the less scanning range you get.
bullets work for me when a merc is standing still....weird.
Sometimes they do for me, sometimes they don't.
That always works for me.
Spekkio you left out some of the key details. Why? I don't know, maybe to help out your side of the argument or something. You forgot to mention that you can quickly deploy spy bullets and they give you radar whether you have your gun drawn or not. Heartbeat on the other hand, you HAVE to have your gun pulled out to use it. When you put away your gun it goes away as well. PLUS, the whole time you are using hbs, you light up on EMF. You expose yourself to expose the enemy position. With spy bullets it's like a split second thing and they only know that you are in the area, and not your exact location.
Like I said before, they have their ups and downs. It works that way.
the balance of hbs and bullets depends quite much on the map design so it's really hard to find the right balance for more then one basic map layout.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 16, 2008, 06:01:30 PM
-Require you to draw your gun to use it
This is misleading. Spybullets actually don't require your gun to "use it", only to place it, and that's a big difference. You can't scan HBS while you're hacking for instance, so if you want advance warning while hacking you either need a partner with HBS or a spybullet.
That's the main advantage to bullets is that you can hack while using them, or fast crouch while using them.
If anything, for balance, I always felt like bullets should just be silent when you place them.
I'm not really sure why gadgets need huge drawbacks. Gadgets are boosts that you take. There's no drawback to taking cams or smoke grenades, I'm not sure why HBS or spybullets should have drawbacks either. The only drawback to taking most gadgets is that you've used up a gadget slot.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on February 17, 2008, 12:37:25 AM
I'm not really sure why gadgets need huge drawbacks. Gadgets are boosts that you take. There's no drawback to taking cams or smoke grenades, I'm not sure why HBS or spybullets should have drawbacks either. The only drawback to taking most gadgets is that you've used up a gadget slot.
Cams and smoke nades makes noise, and they give away your position.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on February 17, 2008, 12:37:25 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 16, 2008, 06:01:30 PM
-Require you to draw your gun to use it
This is misleading. Spybullets actually don't require your gun to "use it", only to place it, and that's a big difference. You can't scan HBS while you're hacking for instance, so if you want advance warning while hacking you either need a partner with HBS or a spybullet.
That's the main advantage to bullets is that you can hack while using them, or fast crouch while using them.
If anything, for balance, I always felt like bullets should just be silent when you place them.
I'm not really sure why gadgets need huge drawbacks. Gadgets are boosts that you take. There's no drawback to taking cams or smoke grenades, I'm not sure why HBS or spybullets should have drawbacks either. The only drawback to taking most gadgets is that you've used up a gadget slot.
Well, yes, the two gadgets have fundamentally different functions, and that ought to stay. What I have issue with is any gadget that can be used infinitely, both in duration and amount, without any way to counter it.
QuoteCams and smoke nades makes noise, and they give away your position.
On top of the drawbacks that all other gadgets have (make noise,
are limited in number, must be fired from the gun, have limited range and area of effect), cams and smoke can be directly countered by the merc's gasmask.
I say again: The ONLY issue I have is when a gadget can be used infinitely. On the merc's side, the tazer should get some limitation to use, either through number of charges or an increased cooldown time. Camnet should be able to be shot out by spies and bypassable using camo, thus allowing spies to directly counter it. Everything else has a limit to how much you can use the gadget.
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 16, 2008, 07:35:41 PM
bullets work for me when a merc is standing still....weird.
If you tag the merc with the bullet, it works no matter what. If you use it as a radar, it stops working if the merc doesn't move.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 17, 2008, 12:46:47 AM
Well, yes, the two gadgets have fundamentally different functions, and that ought to stay. What I have issue with is any gadget that can be used infinitely, both in duration and amount, without any way to counter it.
What if we reversed the current detection scheme. Such that spybullets detect a stationary merc, but HBS doesn't.
That way if you want to set a trap for HBS people, you just stand still.
But I really don't feel like HBS needs many counters, because it's a passive gadget. It's not like cams or smoke where it's going to cripple you as a merc if you don't counter it. What stuff with HBS is so powerful that you have to counter it? There's the one "wait till the mercs leave" strategy which is fairly useful, the drawback is that it can eat up a lot of time.
I guess I've never really seen HBS dominate the game at all. It's certainly good, but it's not going to hack any objectives for you.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 17, 2008, 12:52:06 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 16, 2008, 07:35:41 PM
bullets work for me when a merc is standing still....weird.
If you tag the merc with the bullet, it works no matter what. If you use it as a radar, it stops working if the merc doesn't move.
I've experienced bullets going right through the merc and becoming a radar - and no, I didn't miss, it has happened when the merc was sleeping too.
Cyntrox, I think that's just lag in general. Even if a spy is knocked out, on the ground, I can't count many times I've "shot" at his body and see him take no damage (no red reticle).
Yeah, but the affect on gameplay is much bigger with a spy bullet than with a shot.
Spekkio you aren't giving any good reason why someone shouldn't be able to use certain gadgets infinitely. You are missing some key points and you are giving misleading counter statements. If a certain gadget is supposed to be used infinitely it makes it unique from the other ones. It is a reason to take it. If hbs gets a limit to its usage it's not going to be all that useful. Give us a concrete reason why it should be limited.
Vega is right, it's just the skewed positions of the hit boxes and the image of the spy. Hopefully in PS the hit box and the body images are sealed together and can never separate.
Wow. He has given reasons the last 3 pages. He has compared them to bullets, which was his reason.
No he hasn't. He's compared them, yes. His only "reason was": "Why should hbs be so special?" And I've answered that many times. His other "reasons" were skewed and not the whole truth. He's missed some key details that would override his points anyways. He has exaggerated minor things and left out big things.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 17, 2008, 07:11:22 AM
No he hasn't. He's compared them, yes. His only "reason was": "Why should hbs be so special?" And I've answered that many times. His other "reasons" were skewed and not the whole truth. He's missed some key details that would override his points anyways. He has exaggerated minor things and left out big things.
perhaps you can generate a list of the points he's missing?
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 17, 2008, 07:23:47 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 17, 2008, 07:11:22 AM
No he hasn't. He's compared them, yes. His only "reason was": "Why should hbs be so special?" And I've answered that many times. His other "reasons" were skewed and not the whole truth. He's missed some key details that would override his points anyways. He has exaggerated minor things and left out big things.
perhaps you can generate a list of the points he's missing?
Yep.
I argue from a balance standpoint that nothing should be able to be used infinitely with no way to directly counter it. MT, tazer, camnet, and HB sensor all qualify as these.
Since you brought up the MT thing, I think it should be a little easier to get head shots as a spy.
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 18, 2008, 07:31:43 PM
Since you brought up the MT thing, I think it should be a little easier to get head shots as a spy.
It should be as easy as spy as it is as Merc.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 18, 2008, 07:36:39 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 18, 2008, 07:31:43 PM
Since you brought up the MT thing, I think it should be a little easier to get head shots as a spy.
It should be as easy as spy as it is as Merc.
Why is that? The spy looks like it has a smaller head, and the headshot as a merc has a much deadlier consequence.
the ss headshot is pretty much op in ct.
back in spekkio and my day , we didn't have no such thing as heartbeat sensor , if we wanted to know where the merc is we used a spy bullet by the door or wall , or even on the merc which is alot more effective then Hb imo. plus its overrated ever Since one person ( seefoo) made a video using it every one used it.
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 18, 2008, 08:45:43 PM
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 18, 2008, 07:36:39 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 18, 2008, 07:31:43 PM
Since you brought up the MT thing, I think it should be a little easier to get head shots as a spy.
It should be as easy as spy as it is as Merc.
Quote from: Gawain on February 18, 2008, 10:55:26 PM
the ss headshot is pretty much op in ct.
Why is that? The spy looks like it has a smaller head, and the headshot as a merc has a much deadlier consequence.
Consider:Merc:
- Has bigger hitbox because of the helmet.
+ Doesn't get killed, only loses HUD (reticule included)
Spy:
- Gets killed.
+ Smaller (normal) hitbox.
EDIT: I Fucked up the quotes -.-
Quote from: AgentX_003 on February 18, 2008, 11:07:33 PM
back in spekkio and my day , we didn't have no such thing as heartbeat sensor , if we wanted to know where the merc is we used a spy bullet by the door or wall , or even on the merc which is alot more effective then Hb imo. plus its overrated ever Since one person ( seefoo) made a video using it every one used it.
overpowering how? How does the HBS overpower right now and completely influence the spy, when the merc was sent from the pits of hell. IMO HBS is not overpowered at all. Its only infinite. I see why Spekkio would want to put some restrictions on battery life, but its not an overpowered gadget.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 18, 2008, 06:10:09 PM
I argue from a balance standpoint that nothing should be able to be used infinitely with no way to directly counter it. MT, tazer, camnet, and HB sensor all qualify as these.
the counters against hbs are:
a) staying out of range
b) staying at positions the spy is more likely to be so that using hbs gives away his position
c) covering that aggressively with teamplay that the spy can't use hb that much
if you really think hbs is overpowered on most maps, simply adjust the range (or wait to see what ps maps look like). what you're suggesting is like giving mt a limited battery time because the render resolution is too high...
Quote from: Gawain on February 19, 2008, 03:13:33 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 18, 2008, 06:10:09 PM
I argue from a balance standpoint that nothing should be able to be used infinitely with no way to directly counter it. MT, tazer, camnet, and HB sensor all qualify as these.
the counters against hbs are:
a) staying out of range
b) staying at positions the spy is more likely to be so that using hbs gives away his position
c) covering that aggressively with teamplay that the spy can't use hb that much
if you really think hbs is overpowered on most maps, simply adjust the range (or wait to see what ps maps look like). what you're suggesting is like giving mt a limited battery time because the render resolution is too high...
These counters are not specific to HBS; they are counters to all spy gadgets, which, with the exception of HBS, have a limitation to their use.