This is something that I think will improve the game even if it changes abit gameplay. I think the spies as for the merc should reload their nades... I would some realism to the game and part of the greatness of the SplinterCell series is the some-how realism...
No. I'll tell you why.
In Splinter Cell, you need to be smart and conservative. If you just spam nades all day what would be the drawback? You could just refill. Strategy is a key aspect to SvM. You need to be smart when and where to use your gadgets. This would also render the backpack useless. There's a reason why you have a limit to gadgets, by giving infinite nades it takes it away. By being able to go back and back for infinite nades you actually take away some realism. I understand you didn't say infinite, but having more than 4 nades and a backpack is a little much don't you think?
He did not say infinite nades, hes said SPYS should have to reload like MERCS after they FIRE a nade. I captilized the words you got confused on. ;)
PS this could work it would totaly get rid of double or triple nading also.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 05, 2008, 02:22:22 AM
No. I'll tell you why.
In Splinter Cell, you need to be smart and conservative. If you just spam nades all day what would be the drawback? You could just refill. Strategy is a key aspect to SvM. You need to be smart when and where to use your gadgets. This would also render the backpack useless. There's a reason why you have a limit to gadgets, by giving infinite nades it takes it away. By being able to go back and back for infinite nades you actually take away some realism. I understand you didn't say infinite, but having more than 4 nades and a backpack is a little much don't you think?
first of all, he means reloading the nade after it is fired... not reloading the supply of nades
which is actually a good idea imo
Ah, I see. But it was a really really unclear message.
QuoteI think the spies as for the merc should reload their nades
Makes very little sense.
As for the idea, meh, not totally needed. Why not just have a delay between shots for a cooldown period?
a delay between shots could be a reload... it could be implemented depending on how realistic it will be, like of course its impossible to fit so many nades inside that gun, so realistically he should reload, even if its a fast reload, just to prevent triple nading
although that reload if its too fast would be quicker than the delay on CT when you are throwing the same type of nade... now i dont know if its a good idea, we already have a good delay for nades of the same type...
the delay/reload could also be skipped by throwing a nade with the gun and the other at your feet...
well... i think we should leave it the way it is...
Test-Subject, you're basically saying there should be a delay between firing nades, which is what I think the team was already planning on doing. I believe their reasonings for delaying the nades were to balance aggro spies. However, I see no reason to add a delay when it comes to grenades for spies.
Tripple nading is a great tool and not imbalanced, why are we changing that? For some petty realism and an attempt to further degrade aggressive spies? The reason behind the mercenaries delay is because their nades cause damage, unlike the spies. If a mercenary could spam nades like a spy, then it would change the gameplay quite a bit; for the worst.
Quote from: Vega on March 05, 2008, 06:54:40 AM
Test-Subject, you're basically saying there should be a delay between firing nades, which is what I think the team was already planning on doing. I believe their reasonings for delaying the nades were to balance aggro spies. However, I see no reason to add a delay when it comes to grenades for spies.
Tripple nading is a great tool and not imbalanced, why are we changing that? For some petty realism and an attempt to further degrade aggressive spies? The reason behind the mercenaries delay is because their nades cause damage, unlike the spies. If a mercenary could spam nades like a spy, then it would change the gameplay quite a bit; for the worst.
Vega for president.
Meh, tripple nades already have enough drawback - it uses up your nades.
Quote from: Vega on March 05, 2008, 06:54:40 AM
Test-Subject, you're basically saying there should be a delay between firing nades, which is what I think the team was already planning on doing. I believe their reasonings for delaying the nades were to balance aggro spies. However, I see no reason to add a delay when it comes to grenades for spies.
Tripple nading is a great tool and not imbalanced, why are we changing that? For some petty realism and an attempt to further degrade aggressive spies? The reason behind the mercenaries delay is because their nades cause damage, unlike the spies. If a mercenary could spam nades like a spy, then it would change the gameplay quite a bit; for the worst.
Quote from: Cyntrox on March 05, 2008, 12:55:06 PM
Meh, tripple nades already have enough drawback - it uses up your nades.
QFT/QFE
if the flash effect works in its full strength triple nades are really op in ct. but with nerfed smoke nades and no hostgrab bs triple nading won't be that op any more.
i really can't see the point of adding a delay, in fact i think one should be able to even spam nades more quickly as spamming nades is only op with smoke and that's because smoke is op on its own.
another balance problem regarding nade spam is that you get too many of them when you die constantly, but too less when you stay alive for a longer time which enforces aggro which is bullshit.
Triple nading may or may not be imbalanced in PS, we just don't know. A lot of times in CT the merc gets out of aggro by using some stupid bug, namely the funny punch.
yeah we really can't know, but i suggest implementing the delay only after triple nading turns out op.
I really can't see how triple nades are imbalanced...They're fine the way they are. oO
So long as you let people activate the gas mask while they're shocked, I don't see a problem with triple nading.
Agreed. Triple nades weren't that op in CT anyways, if the triple nading in PS works like CT I don't think we'll have a problem.
no thanks
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 05, 2008, 05:18:30 PM
So long as you let people activate the gas mask while they're shocked, I don't see a problem with triple nading.
this would make mask even more a hard counter to smoke which is a bad thing. just make the slow-down effect of smoke a little weaker, remove the ko ability and make flash more reliable.
How about smoke grenades (no KO), and nerve gas grenades (KO), only thing different with a smoke grenade is is that it's more or less translucent, which means the player can look through it, while a smoke grenade will make a thick curtain of smoke.
Removing the KO possibility from smoke is interesting, but smoke also causes you to move very slowly and be unable to jump. You're basically grab bait without a mask.
I wouldn't be a fan of splitting the grenade into two, since I don't think that smoke is overpowered with the mask. I think the better solution is to either weaken the effects of smoke without mask or give the mercs a gasmask as an inherent equipment item.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 06, 2008, 04:05:05 PM
How about smoke grenades (no KO), and nerve gas grenades (KO), only thing different with a nerve gas grenade is is that it's more or less translucent, which means the player can look through it, while a smoke grenade will make a thick curtain of smoke.
my change is in bold and i tihnk thats what u mean
NO to a new type of nade, especially to this one.
the only thing we gotta do is find the right balance for smoke (and stickies) and mask (which is kinda hard for hard-counters). my suggestions are:
-reduce amount of stickies to 3
-remove ko ability from smoke nades
-reduce the slow down effect of smoke nades by 20-40%
It's best to be as different from the real Versus as possible, so I don't see anything wrong in a new type of grenade. It seems most of you guys want to get rid of the KO effec anyway, but in some situations it can come in handy, so thats where Nervegas will come in play.
@FusionSlayer, yea, that's what I meant.
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 02:33:52 PM
-remove ko ability from smoke nades
-reduce the slow down effect of smoke nades by 20-40%
That would make smokes way too weak, imo. You can charge through it quite fast right now, making that faster and remove the KO-effect .. mhh .. nah.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 07, 2008, 03:36:50 PM
It's best to be as different from the real Versus as possible, so I don't see anything wrong in a new type of grenade. It seems most of you guys want to get rid of the KO effec anyway, but in some situations it can come in handy, so thats where Nervegas will come in play.
@FusionSlayer, yea, that's what I meant.
I don't know where you're getting this from. I wouldn't care either way because I can count on one hand the amount of times a competent merc has been KO'ed from a smoke cloud. If the spy notices that you don't have mask, he's just going to grab you while you can't jump, move, or charge in the cloud.
I am not a fan of "splitting" any of the current equipment items. It's just useless addition of gadgets at that point, and I can't think of any way it would add to the game.
The mask is pretty much an essential equipment item because it hard counters two spy gadgets that are extremely strong in the absence of the mask -- smoke slows you to a crawl, and cams disable you for 15 seconds. So either give the mercs the mask as an inherent item (makes the most sense), or do something about the fact that these two gadgets need a hard counter to begin with, which ultimately would eliminate the need for mask entirely, and thus take out features of the game that could otherwise be useful.
I agree with spekkio.
lennard, no offence, but learn the game before making stupid suggestions.
Quote from: BurningDeath on March 07, 2008, 03:51:20 PM
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 02:33:52 PM
-remove ko ability from smoke nades
-reduce the slow down effect of smoke nades by 20-40%
That would make smokes way too weak, imo. You can charge through it quite fast right now, making that faster and remove the KO-effect .. mhh .. nah.
removing the ko ability isn't a real nerf to smoke if the merc has mask, but essential so that the merc can rather play without mask or with his mask empty.
i'm still for making mask a permanent gadget as it's a hard counter. for instance, give merc 4 (or 3) slots + permanent mask and the spy 4 slots + permanent stickies and voila, finding the right balance becomes way easier.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 07, 2008, 03:36:50 PM
It's best to be as different from the real Versus as possible, so I don't see anything wrong in a new type of grenade. It seems most of you guys want to get rid of the KO effec anyway, but in some situations it can come in handy, so thats where Nervegas will come in play.
Wait, when was this game trying to be as different as possible from Versus? I thought that the goal of the team was to make it as close as possible? Adding non-essential variations in the game (smoke and nervegas) seems pointless just for the sake of being different from the real Versus. Spekkio summed it up nicely, I don't feel like reiterating his points.
Leaving Versus =/= Leaving S.A.M. gameplay.
Quote from: Vega on March 07, 2008, 06:46:23 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 07, 2008, 03:36:50 PM
It's best to be as different from the real Versus as possible, so I don't see anything wrong in a new type of grenade. It seems most of you guys want to get rid of the KO effec anyway, but in some situations it can come in handy, so thats where Nervegas will come in play.
Wait, when was this game trying to be as different as possible from Versus? I thought that the goal of the team was to make it as close as possible? Adding non-essential variations in the game (smoke and nervegas) seems pointless just for the sake of being different from the real Versus. Spekkio summed it up nicely, I don't feel like reiterating his points.
It can't be as close as possible Vega or it will end up breaking copyright. This is a new game with the idea of SvM. I don't care if you add new nades to it. Variation is nice.
Variation is nice, that's where new gadgets/features comes in. The thing is that we don't really want to nerf smoke nades because if someone has gasmask they already lose a lot of their use. Unless you catch a merc off guard with one, or you catch him with no gasmask left, or you catch a merc w/o a gasmask, all smoke is is a good aggro tool for blocking view and wasting gasmask so you can get him with a stick cam later.
cut the variations/new gadgets/other new fancy stuff/whatever would be sooooo great and original crap. adding new stuff isn't good for the gameplay in most cases, but you speak as if it was the other way round. just stfu ffs, noone needs nerve gas nades, backpack hiding games, pistols, etc ::)
vega is right, the goal should be to come as close to the ct vs mode gameplay as possible; i thought it wouldn't break any copyright no matter how similar it is anyways since it's all own code, graphics etc? my guess is that the guys use this only as a excuse to promote their fancy ideas of svm -.-
Wtf Gawain. Did I not just say that I didn't want nerve gas? I said variation is nice. Is it not? Would you just like to play a shiny old version of the same game you've been playing for years? IT DOES NOT matter what the hell you think should be the goal, because well, it's NOT YOUR GOAL. "It should be like this and it SHOULD be this and that way neh neh neh neh", come on now. Open your mind to new ideas ffs.
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 11:33:18 PM
cut the variations/new gadgets/other new fancy stuff/whatever would be sooooo great and original crap. adding new stuff isn't good for the gameplay in most cases, but you speak as if it was the other way round. just stfu ffs, noone needs nerve gas nades, backpack hiding games, pistols, etc ::)
vega is right, the goal should be to come as close to the ct vs mode gameplay as possible; i thought it wouldn't break any copyright no matter how similar it is anyways since it's all own code, graphics etc? my guess is that the guys use this only as a excuse to promote their fancy ideas of svm -.-
I'm sorry, but if this game comes out replicating CT, I wouldn't play it. CT got boring fast. Coming as close to CT vs mode would be disasterous to the project imo. Gaiwan, you can copy ideas of SvM, but if you copy too much...then its copyright. Thats a hefty lawsuit that the PS team wouldn't be able to win. The new coding/graphics doesn't always ensure that something is free from copyright. Adding new things, making variation, and creating more diversity would be a healthy outlook for the game. Making it close to CT would put it in the shitter as fast as CT went into the shitter. THIS IS NOT CT....THIS IS A NEW GAME BASED UPON SPIES VS MERCENARY.
Am I wrong? Can a dev get in here and set the record straight since everyone has a different opinion of whats happening here.
From my understanding of what has been said about copyright, it seems we can get very, very close to what CT SvM was about without copyright infringement. Changing some names, adding maybe something minor to it and we have a game to call our own. Besides that, it's all based on a completely different engine with custom maps, animations, and models.
I too would like to have a dev come in here and set the record straight. I want to know what the hell is actually going on. But please make sure whoever speaks on the dev team knows what they're talking about. This is getting tiring to hear how the "mission statement" varies from "cloning SvM" to "based on SvM."
westfall, you will get tons of variation just by "fixing" ct. these are the main points:
-gadget balance: 90% of the "pro" players use smoke chaff stickies hbs or nades mask mines backpack with some minor changes depending on map and mate
-map loadout: basically there are only 3 well-balanced maps in ct: club, factory and orphanage
the gameplay will also drastically change as stealth will become easier (no uba eax and mt), but mistakes on the spy side will be punished way harder (better net code, better mouse implementation).
i don't give a crap about the views of noobs like papaskull, but westfall's statement (that he doesn't want to come as close to ct as possible) makes me quite curious what other other good players think about the optimal mission of this project. maybe it's time for a sclamers poll?
like vega said, the devs need to clarify if they changed the original mission or not.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 08, 2008, 06:55:45 AM
I'm sorry, but if this game comes out replicating CT, I wouldn't play it. CT got boring fast. Coming as close to CT vs mode would be disasterous to the project imo. Gaiwan, you can copy ideas of SvM, but if you copy too much...then its copyright. Thats a hefty lawsuit that the PS team wouldn't be able to win. The new coding/graphics doesn't always ensure that something is free from copyright. Adding new things, making variation, and creating more diversity would be a healthy outlook for the game. Making it close to CT would put it in the shitter as fast as CT went into the shitter. THIS IS NOT CT....THIS IS A NEW GAME BASED UPON SPIES VS MERCENARY.
Yeah, I agree. We need to add some new stuff.
Westfall +1
Quote from: Gawain on March 08, 2008, 03:43:01 PM
i don't give a crap about the views of noobs like papaskull, but westfall's statement (that he doesn't want to come as close to ct as possible) makes me quite curious what other other good players think about the optimal mission of this project. maybe it's time for a sclamers poll?
like vega said, the devs need to clarify if they changed the original mission or not.
As far as I'm concerned, I never thought the goal of Project Stealth was to copy the CT gameplay. In my opinion, the perfect formula would be somewhat like this: Two thirds of the best of PT and CT gameplay plus one third of new things that the devs come up with.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 08, 2008, 06:01:04 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 08, 2008, 06:55:45 AM
I'm sorry, but if this game comes out replicating CT, I wouldn't play it. CT got boring fast. Coming as close to CT vs mode would be disasterous to the project imo. Gaiwan, you can copy ideas of SvM, but if you copy too much...then its copyright. Thats a hefty lawsuit that the PS team wouldn't be able to win. The new coding/graphics doesn't always ensure that something is free from copyright. Adding new things, making variation, and creating more diversity would be a healthy outlook for the game. Making it close to CT would put it in the shitter as fast as CT went into the shitter. THIS IS NOT CT....THIS IS A NEW GAME BASED UPON SPIES VS MERCENARY.
Yeah, I agree. We need to add some new stuff.
Such as the sound/movement/ambient noise system I came up with a while ago? I think that would add more to stealthy gameplay than a dumb hologram. But everyone's like "noes, keep the movement set to two speeds!"
How about the CT coop version of the OCP that the spies would always have? Can silently disable any defenses if you have a LOS to it. The spy using it will be immobile during activation. Would be a happy medium between instituting this "glove" that can't shoot mercs, but would require both spies to be around to use it.
New stuff is good, but it needs to be taken as evolutionary steps (PT --> CT) rather than revolutionary steps (CT ---> DA).
But I disagree with westfall in that I don't think it's a bad thing if the game comes close to CT but with new maps + fixed mechanics. CT is a great game, and the only thing that makes it stale for me is that I've played all the maps 10,000 times.
QuoteAs far as I'm concerned, I never thought the goal of Project Stealth was to copy the CT gameplay. In my opinion, the perfect formula would be somewhat like this: Two thirds of the best of PT and CT gameplay plus one third of new things that the devs come up with.
If you take the best of PT/CT/DA, you will already have a "new" game without having to come up with outlandish gadgets or silly changes for the sake of "variety."
Quote from: Spekkio on March 08, 2008, 08:05:35 PM
But I disagree with westfall in that I don't think it's a bad thing if the game comes close to CT but with new maps + fixed mechanics. CT is a great game, and the only thing that makes it stale for me is that I've played all the maps 10,000 times.
QuoteAs far as I'm concerned, I never thought the goal of Project Stealth was to copy the CT gameplay. In my opinion, the perfect formula would be somewhat like this: Two thirds of the best of PT and CT gameplay plus one third of new things that the devs come up with.
If you take the best of PT/CT/DA, you will already have a "new" game without having to come up with outlandish gadgets or silly changes for the sake of "variety."
I'm not talking about outlandish gadgets or silly changes, and believe me, I'm the last person to support such things. I'm talking about things like the ambient sounds or the OCP you mentioned, or the new MT-system, ...
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 08, 2008, 06:55:45 AM
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 11:33:18 PM
cut the variations/new gadgets/other new fancy stuff/whatever would be sooooo great and original crap. adding new stuff isn't good for the gameplay in most cases, but you speak as if it was the other way round. just stfu ffs, noone needs nerve gas nades, backpack hiding games, pistols, etc ::)
vega is right, the goal should be to come as close to the ct vs mode gameplay as possible; i thought it wouldn't break any copyright no matter how similar it is anyways since it's all own code, graphics etc? my guess is that the guys use this only as a excuse to promote their fancy ideas of svm -.-
I'm sorry, but if this game comes out replicating CT, I wouldn't play it. CT got boring fast. Coming as close to CT vs mode would be disasterous to the project imo. Gaiwan, you can copy ideas of SvM, but if you copy too much...then its copyright. Thats a hefty lawsuit that the PS team wouldn't be able to win. The new coding/graphics doesn't always ensure that something is free from copyright. Adding new things, making variation, and creating more diversity would be a healthy outlook for the game. Making it close to CT would put it in the shitter as fast as CT went into the shitter. THIS IS NOT CT....THIS IS A NEW GAME BASED UPON SPIES VS MERCENARY.
Am I wrong? Can a dev get in here and set the record straight since everyone has a different opinion of whats happening here.
I agree with bost westfall and gawain on this, i'd like a game that play a lot like ct but sometimes gawain, changes are for the better :) Im all for new gadgets, just so long as there balanced. Which brings me onto my new topic, something which just spurred in my head whilst i was writing this.
What about a spy rapel gadget (like the batman gadget) where the rapel hook thingy can be shot out of the gun, and spies could climb the rope perhaps?
What do you guys think?
"Such as the sound/movement/ambient noise system I came up with a while ago? I think that would add more to stealthy gameplay than a dumb hologram. But everyone's like "noes, keep the movement set to two speeds!"
How about the CT coop version of the OCP that the spies would always have? Can silently disable any defenses if you have a LOS to it. The spy using it will be immobile during activation. Would be a happy medium between instituting this "glove" that can't shoot mercs, but would require both spies to be around to use it."
These are the two best ideas yet IMO. I think the OCP is an excellent idea, it would encourage teamwork alot, and it pisses me off that sometimes u have to give ur posish away before hacking an obj, so all your stealth goes to waste because (e.g. u have to shoot the camera in steam to be able to hack it) and the merc hears. Im all for a new speed system to, just so long as its not ridiculously complicated.
People... PT was perfect, if you look at the concepts. Turned out great (excluding bugs).
Ct was more than perfect (concepts), then it was also good, but less than PT.
DA was first "Cool, new game", and then it turned out to be a bullshitty game.
So, what i want to say, is: Keep your ideas raw, then when they work either leave them as they are, or improve them.
Gadgets that overlap in functions is a difficult subject, but look at this the very obvious way:
Smoke grenades are not going to put you to sleep, if you stand in them. They will obscure your vision, they will make your eyes tear, but you will not fall.
Camgas, instead, would make cough very hard, and then go unconscious. It isn't a "Hey im feeling sleepy" thing. The merc should at least make a try to keep on going (i'd say 2-4 seconds, but im no expert).
Now, about the hack glove... I think it should keep a constant hacking time from any distance, since It wouldn't even be a guess game if the percentage went at different speeds. Instead, it should hack VERY slowly, like 1/3-1/4 of what's the hack-time now. Other than that, for security, it should have an OCP-like device (CTSP), and the mercs should not know about the security failure.
Next of that come the 3xNades - an easy solution would be to make the spy to actually stand still/move slow and reload.
That's all i have to say for now.
<Please note that everything i wrote here is MY opinion on the subject, nobody is meant to be offended and I'm a leaver (according to twoface)>
Quote from: FR33M4N on March 08, 2008, 09:16:24 PM
What about a spy rapel gadget (like the batman gadget) where the rapel hook thingy can be shot out of the gun, and spies could climb the rope perhaps?
That could be cool, but not in a way of batman gadget but single player thing. Spies could attach the string to some place and slowly move hanging upside down - like in sector 2 on station from the ceiling to the ground. They could wait to perform reverse neck break.
Think more open, people.
Say they have to do something, they don't get insterted INSIDE the building. They have to get inside alone. This gives: rope that you can freely shoot = more climbpoints = more interesting maps.
Quote from: neth on March 08, 2008, 09:48:28 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on March 08, 2008, 09:16:24 PM
What about a spy rapel gadget (like the batman gadget) where the rapel hook thingy can be shot out of the gun, and spies could climb the rope perhaps?
That could be cool, but not in a way of batman gadget but single player thing. Spies could attach the string to some place and slowly move hanging upside down - like in sector 2 on station from the ceiling to the ground. They could wait to perform reverse neck break.
Gadgets that change access to the map cannot be selectable because you run into a pain in the ass balance problem for when they do/don't have it. So the gadget either becomes a "must have" or ignored completely.
That's not to say I'd be necessarily opposed to giving spies a grappling hook. Just saying that it'd have to be an inherent ability.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 08, 2008, 11:22:50 PM
Quote from: neth on March 08, 2008, 09:48:28 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on March 08, 2008, 09:16:24 PM
What about a spy rapel gadget (like the batman gadget) where the rapel hook thingy can be shot out of the gun, and spies could climb the rope perhaps?
That could be cool, but not in a way of batman gadget but single player thing. Spies could attach the string to some place and slowly move hanging upside down - like in sector 2 on station from the ceiling to the ground. They could wait to perform reverse neck break.
Gadgets that change access to the map cannot be selectable because you run into a pain in the ass balance problem for when they do/don't have it. So the gadget either becomes a "must have" or ignored completely.
That's not to say I'd be necessarily opposed to giving spies a grappling hook. Just saying that it'd have to be an inherent ability.
Ah yeh, that'd be better, I think a grapling hook would be quite cool, it might make the level designers job a fair bit harder though. But yeh a shootable grapling hook would be sweet.
I don't think it should be a gadget but an item every spy would have. It also shouldn't be hard to do, devs opinion ?
Quote from: Spekkio on March 08, 2008, 08:05:35 PM
sound/movement/ambient noise system
>im absolutely for a more sophisticated noise system. think about more different surfaces, speeds, acoustics, environmental noises (interactive map stuff like toggable generator that creates noise etc), merc sound reticule range variables,... .
however, the "rules" when something triggers the sound indicator should be quite clear, and there should probably also be an indicator for the spy when he did such a noise.
---------------------
How about the CT coop version of the OCP that the spies would always have? Can silently disable any defenses if you have a LOS to it. The spy using it will be immobile during activation.
>sounds great to me. immobility isn't even needed, as you cannot bypass lasers with your gun out (and cams way slower than by just avoiding their fov)
---------------------
CT is a great game, and the only thing that makes it stale for me is that I've played all the maps 10,000 times.
>yap. it's the small amount of good maps, good active players and the small amount of strong gadget choices that makes ct repetitive, but certainly not the game mechanics.
----------------------
If you take the best of PT/CT/DA, you will already have a "new" game without having to come up with outlandish gadgets or silly changes for the sake of "variety."
>hell yes. if there is one thing that's for sure, it's that you won't have to worry about "variety" (at least not if ps gets long-term patch support and finds a big enough competitive player base).
Quote from: Gawain on March 08, 2008, 03:43:01 PM
westfall, you will get tons of variation just by "fixing" ct. these are the main points:
-gadget balance: 90% of the "pro" players use smoke chaff stickies hbs or nades mask mines backpack with some minor changes depending on map and mate
-map loadout: basically there are only 3 well-balanced maps in ct: club, factory and orphanage
As far as gadget balance, with only what we have you can't expect much. Adding may be helpful for variation purposes Gaiwan.
Balanced maps? Please. Club: both mercs stay downstairs...game over. Factory: Camnet is powerful, but this is the most balanced map imo. Orphanage: If Spies don't rush 2nd sector or 3rd sector, goodluck. Thats not balance. Thats getting lucky.
@Spekkio: multiple speeds plus the scrambler = FTW. I don't think we need a glove, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.
As far as "new" spy gadgets: scrambler (maybe as gadget?), holopod (let there be more debate if necessary), heal needle in replacement of health boxes.
@ Gaiwan again: Constant fixes would be great, as well as listening to the community during the times when fixes are necessary. An overabundant amount of maps will save PS over time. We just need to make sure that these things continually happen.
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 11:33:18 PM
cut the variations/new gadgets/other new fancy stuff/whatever would be sooooo great and original crap. adding new stuff isn't good for the gameplay in most cases, but you speak as if it was the other way round. just stfu ffs, noone needs nerve gas nades, backpack hiding games, pistols, etc ::)
vega is right, the goal should be to come as close to the ct vs mode gameplay as possible; i thought it wouldn't break any copyright no matter how similar it is anyways since it's all own code, graphics etc? my guess is that the guys use this only as a excuse to promote their fancy ideas of svm -.-
Gawain, please stop spouting what you want Project Stealth to be an realize that there is more than one opinion in the world. If someone else has an idea, please don't be an ass and shout "lololololol you idea r dumb, i r pro so i r write". Accept that there are other people with different ways of thinking.
Splitting the smoke into two is a retarded idea since it isn't overpowered anyway.
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 06:12:46 PM
lennard, no offence, but learn the game before making stupid suggestions.
gawain, no offense, but learn that this isn't versus, but PS, we are not limited to what versus could, we can add a flamethrower if we want if it is fun.
@MR.MIC
I'm already lone gong from that idea, since it was just a suggestion to get the discussion going on.
@All
I'm just making a point that we are not trying to make a copy/clone of CT, but to make a different game inspired by versus. Westfall-US is right about not copying/cloning and the copyright infridgements.
If you (Gawain) don't like this, go play your buggy CT.
Men... I thought we already stressed enough we are neather copying OR cloning PT/CT Versus...
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 09, 2008, 11:12:10 AM
@All
I'm just making a point that we are not trying to make a copy/clone of CT, but to make a different game inspired by versus. Westfall-US is right about not copying/cloning and the copyright infridgements.
If you (Gawain) don't like this, go play your buggy CT.
Men... I thought we already stressed enough we are neather copying OR cloning PT/CT Versus...
BAM. Thank you!
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 09, 2008, 11:12:10 AM
@All
I'm just making a point that we are not trying to make a copy/clone of CT, but to make a different game inspired by versus. Westfall-US is right about not copying/cloning and the copyright infridgements.
If you (Gawain) don't like this, go play your buggy CT.
Men... I thought we already stressed enough we are neather copying OR cloning PT/CT Versus...
No, because from the beginning, it's been a "clone" instead of what you're saying. Multiple developers have said, from the beginning, that this is going to be a clone. Type in "clone" in the search function, and you've got 3 pages that are mostly dedicated to the discussion of this game being "cloned." You've stressed jack shit. Even goodkebab said, in reference to the game being cloned;
Quotethe rule is, it needs to be 10% different.
Also, all Westfall said was "if you copy too much then it's copyright infringement." Uhh, Lennard,
duh? Of course he's right about that
statement, but that's not the point and nor does it pertain to this. The point is that we're adding our own visuals, animations, names, and maps which
more than accounts for 10% of the game. We've brought up multiple threads and documents (the documents may be at SC Lamers) saying that what we're doing is in no way copyright infringement.
Vega, stop living in 2006. Those threads were made before Ubisoft got all aggrevated. Hint: do you still see the 'mission statement' saying that? No, because that was moved to dev-only to prevent people from thinking the wrong thing.
The official way you should see Project Stealth is:
We expand on the (currently known) SAM-based gameplay.
That's it.
frvge, Vega has a point here. The developers and anyone involved in the project is just trying to tip-toe around the issue because of Ubi's baseless accusations, so no one knows exactly what the goal of the project is anymore. I've been told things in private conversations that are different from what lennard is saying in this thread.
And if you're so worried about copyright, why in the goddamn world are you using the main character's name in the SC series to abbreviate your "original" game?
Seriously, all this out of the way synonymous wording is getting on my nerves. It's like when I worked at Nikon and they just came out with the D3/D300. We couldn't tell customers that the cameras were "shipped," we had to say "released" in a half-assed attempt to be intentionally vague.
Stealth Action Multiplayer has nothing to do with the single-player protagonist of another series.
Goddamnit, there you go again.
QuoteSeriously, all this out of the way synonymous wording is getting on my nerves. It's like when I worked at Nikon and they just came out with the D3/D300. We couldn't tell customers that the cameras were "shipped," we had to say "released" in a half-assed attempt to be intentionally vague.
Quote from: frvge on March 09, 2008, 06:15:51 PM
Vega, stop living in 2006. Those threads were made before Ubisoft got all aggrevated. Hint: do you still see the 'mission statement' saying that? No, because that was moved to dev-only to prevent people from thinking the wrong thing.
The official way you should see Project Stealth is:
We expand on the (currently known) SAM-based gameplay.
That's it.
It's 2008 and you still see people thinking this is going to be a clone. This would be a lot easier if you actually had a mission statement thread in the "Information" forum. It's by luck that a newcomer will find the mission statement in the "Assembling a development team" thread under the "Information" forum. I'm not the only one who is confused about this project's goal.
Do you guys seriously think that people get interested in PS if it is a clone of CT ? I mean, the community of CT is very small, do you think that all of these people will buy UT3 to play exact same thing with ZOMG new graphics and maps while everything stays the same ? I can see that you dont realise that thousands of new players will NOT play this mod and the only way to make this game at least a bit popular is to add many new cool things even if its done by the cost of balance, yes BALANCE. People dont play games so they can tell their friends: "Hey man, check this out, Ive got a game with best balance in the universe". People play games cause they have COOL things in it. Each time new idea comes I hear: "No, it would kill the balance", "No, it doesnt fit the genre", "No, blabla". This is shitty...
Quote from: neth on March 09, 2008, 07:48:27 PM
Do you guys seriously think that people get interested in PS if it is a clone of CT ? I mean, the community of CT is very small, do you think that all of these people will buy UT3 to play exact same thing with ZOMG new graphics and maps while everything stays the same ? I can see that you dont realise that thousands of new players will NOT play this mod and the only way to make this game at least a bit popular is to add many new cool things even if its done by the cost of balance, yes BALANCE. People dont play games so they can tell their friends: "Hey man, check this out, Ive got a game with best balance in the universe". People play games cause they have COOL things in it. Each time new idea comes I hear: "No, it would kill the balance", "No, it doesnt fit the genre", "No, blabla". This is shitty...
Agreed.
QuoteDo you guys seriously think that people get interested in PS if it is a clone of CT ?
Yes. CT had very outdated graphics, poor netcode, a lackluster interface, a long learning curve with no explanation of core mechanisms, and no support for bug and balance fixes. I suppose that, by definition, fixing these things makes PS not a "clone" of CT, but I don't think that's what people are referring to when they use that term. It seems to me that "clone" refers to gameplay style and features, and I don't think that part needs to change all that much.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 09, 2008, 08:49:22 PM
QuoteDo you guys seriously think that people get interested in PS if it is a clone of CT ?
Yes. CT had very outdated graphics, poor netcode, a lackluster interface, a long learning curve with no explanation of core mechanisms, and no support for bug and balance fixes. I suppose that, by definition, fixing these things makes PS not a "clone" of CT, but I don't think that's what people are referring to when they use that term. It seems to me that "clone" refers to gameplay style and features, and I don't think that part needs to change all that much.
exactly. ct is already the most amazing game concept there is, the reasons why its community isn't bigger are all in spekkio's post.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 09, 2008, 11:12:10 AM
If you (Gawain) don't like this, go play your buggy CT.
this statement shows clearly that you are the wrong guy to be a dev of ps. just because you are no ct player doesn't mean that anything besides the "buggy" part needs to be changed. dammit you make me angry...
Quote from: Gawain on March 09, 2008, 09:00:44 PM
just because you are no ct player doesn't mean that anything besides the "buggy" part needs to be changed.
Sry if i understood you wrong, but from what i read, it comes out that you want PS to just have the CT bugs removed, without touching anything other, and therefore to be an exact clone of the CT gameplay, without the bugs.
<sry for noob grammar>
My personal idea for PS would be to take the SAM-gameplay one step further. Just like CT did with PT. Come on, you wouldn't want to play the exact same thing for another four years.
Correct. Bigger and better on all parts (graphics, sound, music, gameplay, bugfixes).
Quote from: neth on March 09, 2008, 07:48:27 PM
Do you guys seriously think that people get interested in PS if it is a clone of CT ?
Yes, that's how this project started. It was the main focus of the project because people loved CT but hated the poor netcode and anything that fell into the "bullshit" category. After the clone was done, we were going to discuss improvements in the game such as new gadgets and game modes. It wasn't until some of the
Ubi forum moderators (emphasis on their lack of power) got their panties in a bunch and attempted to scare off Project Stealth with "potential lawsuits" which had no basis and consisted mainly of complete, fabricated bullshit.
QuoteI mean, the community of CT is very small, do you think that all of these people will buy UT3 to play exact same thing with ZOMG new graphics and maps while everything stays the same ? I can see that you dont realise that thousands of new players will NOT play this mod and the only way to make this game at least a bit popular is to add many new cool things even if its done by the cost of balance, yes BALANCE. People dont play games so they can tell their friends: "Hey man, check this out, Ive got a game with best balance in the universe". People play games cause they have COOL things in it. Each time new idea comes I hear: "No, it would kill the balance", "No, it doesnt fit the genre", "No, blabla". This is shitty...
While it's true unbalance creates controversy and interest in a game, that approach is not the way to go with our type of game. I'm not going to go into detail (since I'm pushing my absurd amount of homework aside as we speak), but that strategy works much better in a game such as an RTS rather than an FPS/stealth action multiplayer. With our gadget selection being very small, the player allowed 4-5 gadgets, the possibilities are usually pretty obvious. CT was, for the most part, pretty balanced. It was an elite type of game that catered to a small group of people because it had a steep learning curve and was generally unfriendly towards noobs. Don't kill SvM's greatest attribute so it can cater to the masses. Double Agent, anyone?
EDIT: I'm fine with doing what PT to CT did. That's great. But SvM remained true to its core, unlike a lot of the ideas people propose on this forum for PS.
QuoteEDIT: I'm fine with doing what PT to CT did. That's great. But SvM remained true to its core, unlike a lot of the ideas people propose on this forum for PS.
Exactly...the game doesn't have to be a clone in the strict sense of the word -- new models, sound, maps, etc. are certainly welcome. But the core gameplay does not need to be overhauled.
Change: everything techy, like models etc
Change (gameplay): better motion tracking, better balance.
Addition: probably new cool stuff, made up by the community. But we're not that far yet.
Removal (aim... cant test yet): lag, funny punches, insta-nades, crap like that.
It'll be evolution. Not revolution.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 09, 2008, 10:02:43 PM
QuoteEDIT: I'm fine with doing what PT to CT did. That's great. But SvM remained true to its core, unlike a lot of the ideas people propose on this forum for PS.
Exactly...the game doesn't have to be a clone in the strict sense of the word -- new models, sound, maps, etc. are certainly welcome. But the core gameplay does not need to be overhauled.
The suggestions that people make does not take away from the SvM feel at all. If anything it influences, enhances, and variates....as it should with a NEW game. I think this needs to be implanted into the heads of several people because a clone of CT would be a waste of all this work these devs are putting into this. I like CT...I made a bold first post because CT got boring. Don't clone what CT was....clone the SvM with new additions and enhancements. With all of us from the PT/CT/DA community, it will be helpful because of the intelligence we can combine to accomplish a better game than anything UBI ever had to offer.
Quote from: Gawain on March 09, 2008, 09:00:44 PM
dammit you make me angry...
Like I care... You never seem to understand the whole idea of PS and you're almost always the one complaining about balancing and new stuff. And I already explained you once WHY I'm in the team, so I'm not going to do that again. You should be glad I'm in, because coders aren't served on a plate!
@Vega: Start living in 2008 already! WE ARE NOT CLONING CT GOD DAMN IT! WE WILL NEVER DO AND NEVER WILL! (NOW GTFO IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS)!
Arg... You guys make ME angry really...
@FRVGE: Make the new mission statement already!
Edit: I'm done talking about this now.
This is what I'm talking about. Lennard is probably the worst spokesperson for your development team yet he usually represents you guys. Not only is he missing the mark
completely but he's a naive, little child who acts high and mighty because he's a coder. Lennard, kid, shut the fuck up and stop acting like a fool.
QuoteYou should be glad I'm in, because coders aren't served on a plate!
You sound a lot like dimmy, there's a good reason he isn't on the team. I don't give fuck if you can code, if you're attitude sucks then you're worthless. I'm a contributing member on this small forum, OMG BOW DOWN TO ME. Can we get someone else to speak for you guys in the future? Someone that is actually competent?
I am the only one representing the whole team, since I am PR (and therefor need to mind each of my words).
Lennard just cares for the game and sometimes posts without thinking it through ;) .
Lennard's attitude in the team is good. The only ones who will be the judge for that are the Dev-members.
On-topic now on the grenades-subject. Anyone who wishes to discuss this further can PM me and only me.
Personally I like lennard and I agree with him. If you want PT/CT/DA then go see ubi, if you want PS stay here. As for grenades I think smoke/flash/chaff would be fine, and I'm intrested in splitting the smoke, into smoke and nerve, but I think it will need testing.
EDIT: on-topic!
I hae yet to see how Lennard has gotten out of line...anywhere. You're just acting foolish now.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 10, 2008, 06:54:07 AM
I hae yet to see how Lennard has gotten out of line...anywhere. You're just acting foolish now.
Westfall, drop the condescending shit if you're not going to read Lennard's last post;
Quote@Vega: Start living in 2008 already! WE ARE NOT CLONING CT GOD DAMN IT! WE WILL NEVER DO AND NEVER WILL! (NOW GTFO IF YOU DON'T LIKE THIS)!
Arg... You guys make ME angry really...
I said he acts high and mighty because he's a coder, which I've noticed with several of his posts. I asked for a dev to come in and give us a response, not for him to act like a 12 year old that forgot to take his ritalin. I got the question answered from frvge, I don't need Lennard to come in here telling me to "gtfo" because people are confused about the original mission statement.
I put it between ( ) on purpose you know.... perhaps the bit of sarcasm in the sentence you didn't get.
Could be me, I don't know. Here I'm just part of the community helping with discussions, I just hate to see people start making wrong statements and keep defending them when they are told otherwise (in case by me AND frvge). If you think I crossed a line with that post, sorry for that, that's never been an intention (since there was also a bit of sarcasm in it). :-*
Edit: Oh, and the "you guys make ME angry" was to tease gawain :P
For the last time:
ON TOPIC
Else lockage!