new anti aggro move for mercs

[Gawain]

insta p.nades makes sense to me.
they are kinda handy as a tracking device like spy traps (+fake nade). i don't think they should block objectives totally, but make a poison effect eg blurry vision and loosing a little health while standing in the dust would work out fine. it's also easy to balance by adjusting damage/time.
it would be really awesome if the phosphour could be lit in some way  ;D

[Farley4Fan]

How about making phospho/incendiary/frags take up one slot?  I mean like a mine, you choose which you want to use.  You change the grenade type when you pop your little menu up.  Of course you only get 4 grenades + Backpack Refills.  You can't use all your frags then switch to incendiary and fire those, vice versa.  You get 4 grenades to fire whether they be Frags, phosphorus, or incendiary you only get 4 of them. 

What do you think?  This might be a bit unbalanced though because of the variety of uses the merc has for grenades.

[Gawain]

i'd almost never waste one frag as phosphorous nade, they're way too important (just like mask).
oh and like stated several times before: crossing gadgets sucks.
the 5 slot idea is clearly superior (with or without scope as an gadget).

[InvisibleMan999]

i'd almost never waste one frag as phosphorous nade, they're way too important (just like mask).

Yeah, I don't think anyone would use anything but frags. Frags are pretty much better than flares, phosphor and incendiary grenades.

It's one reason I feel that incendiary grenades would need a boost. They're still not as great as frags, if you can't compete with frags... then eh... they're a piece of junk as a gadget.

Merc gadgets really have a very high standard as far as what's valuable, because there are so many great merc gadgets already.

[Gawain]

frags > spytraps as frags are versatile and a killing device, but people still use traps quite regularly. atm ph nades wouldn't be used as there is no 5th slot and frags/mask/mines are pretty obligatory.
the pt ph. nades would be sufficienet with a little higher timers, teammate not able to remove dust and dust doing damage per time so that you can't hack an objective in ph dust for more than ~1-2s with full health.

[InvisibleMan999]

frags > spytraps as frags are versatile and a killing device, but people still use traps quite regularly. atm ph nades wouldn't be used as there is no 5th slot and frags/mask/mines are pretty obligatory.
the pt ph. nades would be sufficienet with a little higher timers, teammate not able to remove dust and dust doing damage per time so that you can't hack an objective in ph dust for more than ~1-2s with full health.

I suppose it would work if you made it so the DoT effect was sufficient to kil a spy in a few seconds, Though the problem there may be that phosphor nades just wouldn't be very fun to fight against, since the last minute of the match may well be a merc spamming phosphors at the remaining objective. And the spy pretty much can't do anything to hack that objective. I don't really think that'd be a great idea. It'd eliminate a lot of those last second hacks that make the game fun.

[ShadowX]

... since the last minute of the match may well be a merc spamming phosphors at the remaining objective. And the spy pretty much can't do anything to hack that objective. I don't really think that'd be a great idea. It'd eliminate a lot of those last second hacks that make the game fun.

This would be pretty much avoidable with the design of the map. Of course, not completely, but having just 2 objectives left close each other isn't a good idea anyway.

What i like is that you don't have a chokepoint in the map. The maps with like 3 objectives out of 6 objectives is enough for the win are what i find the best ones to play, you won't have to worry about there always being a merc, as you can throw a distraction with your mate and get the 3rd objective, the mercs can't just camp each one on 1 objective so they have to be carefull and not let you over come the situation.

I just mostly get mad at the times in club where you can't do anything alone, if you have taken the both garden hacks without a hack from the back, the mercs can easily defend it, just camp in the corridor / near the window. It needs teamwork, which everyone doesn't have (I'm doomed with the fact that i end up playing with new people / people who die instantly withing the 2 first minutes on the game :D) so you need to be able to make it also alone. There are other maps, but this was just a bit over reacting example  :)

[Spekkio]

frags > spytraps as frags are versatile and a killing device, but people still use traps quite regularly. atm ph nades wouldn't be used as there is no 5th slot and frags/mask/mines are pretty obligatory.
the pt ph. nades would be sufficienet with a little higher timers, teammate not able to remove dust and dust doing damage per time so that you can't hack an objective in ph dust for more than ~1-2s with full health.

I suppose it would work if you made it so the DoT effect was sufficient to kil a spy in a few seconds, Though the problem there may be that phosphor nades just wouldn't be very fun to fight against, since the last minute of the match may well be a merc spamming phosphors at the remaining objective. And the spy pretty much can't do anything to hack that objective. I don't really think that'd be a great idea. It'd eliminate a lot of those last second hacks that make the game fun.

Make it like a poison -- spy can still hack, he just takes damage. So long as you're not at like 1/4 health, you should be able to get that last second or two.

[Gawain]

frags > spytraps as frags are versatile and a killing device, but people still use traps quite regularly. atm ph nades wouldn't be used as there is no 5th slot and frags/mask/mines are pretty obligatory.
the pt ph. nades would be sufficienet with a little higher timers, teammate not able to remove dust and dust doing damage per time so that you can't hack an objective in ph dust for more than ~1-2s with full health.

I suppose it would work if you made it so the DoT effect was sufficient to kil a spy in a few seconds, Though the problem there may be that phosphor nades just wouldn't be very fun to fight against, since the last minute of the match may well be a merc spamming phosphors at the remaining objective. And the spy pretty much can't do anything to hack that objective. I don't really think that'd be a great idea. It'd eliminate a lot of those last second hacks that make the game fun.

Make it like a poison -- spy can still hack, he just takes damage. So long as you're not at like 1/4 health, you should be able to get that last second or two.

exactly what i was trying to say.

[InvisibleMan999]

Make it like a poison -- spy can still hack, he just takes damage. So long as you're not at like 1/4 health, you should be able to get that last second or two.

Well the problem is that if you do that, it tends to go into the "useless" category. The only real benefit of a Damage over time ability from a merc standpoint is that you prevent the spy from standing still in one spot for a while. This means that it's only real effective use is protecting an objective. That's it. If it doesn't actually protect the objective, then it's relatively useless.

If incendiaries are powerful enough to prevent hacking, or do enough damage ot just allow 1-2 seconds then I could see them being useful late game against a dangerous spy, who you fear may KO you with a lucky quick cam. So you spam the objective with constant incendiaries, buying you about a minute or so where he can't hack.

But if that doesn't work, and it's similar to a poison mine, where the spy juist ignories it but can hack a good 5-8 seconds before dying, then I really can't think of when you'd ever use incendiaries. A straight up damage over time that only affects people while they're in the cloud just isn't that great. Spies move. It's what they do. The only time they stand still is when they're hacking. So it either beats hacking or it doesn't. If it doesn't then it's useless. If it does, then it could be a balance problem, at least late game.

I mean, honestly can you think of a situation in the game where you'd rather have an incendiary than a frag? If you can't then the incendiary is too weak.

What about this:

An incendiary creates a cloud for 30 seconds. If a spy enters that cloud he starts to burn, and the burning continues even after he leaves the cloud, simply entering it for half a second is enough to start you on fire. A spy remains on fire for 20 seconds after he leaves the cloud. A spy who is on fire gives off some minor light (making it difficult to hide in shadows), gives off screams of pain every so often (which ping the reticule) and has difficulty aiming the sticky shocker (his red dot moves around unsteadily in random directions). A burning spy is also unable to roll, making him somewhat slower. The incendiary does very minor damage (probably about 1/8th of the spy's life at the end of the 20 seconds).

So incendiaries are sort of an instant spytrap that you may set up to try to block the spy's escape route.

In almost any circular level that may be kind of useful, when you face spies who like to try to circle around or speed hack things.

I can think of a few instances where something like that would be nice. Clubhouse, river mall... Really any kind of instance where you've got spies who like to rush. objectives through the main route. An incendiary in their path hangs for a decent amount of time, slows them down, and makes it difficult for them to shoot out mines along the way (by making their aim unsteady). It also makes them easy to track (reticule pings).

That I could actually see being useful.

[seefoo.]

mines will prolly be too much of imba.  maybe with nades, you also get phos ( you can load the different nades just like planting diff mines)  if u getting attacked you can lay down phos, tag the spies and when help comes from teammate they will be marked for death. 

[Gawain]

I mean, honestly can you think of a situation in the game where you'd rather have an incendiary than a frag? If you can't then the incendiary is too weak.

wrong. you can't take frags twice, and you don't think "i'd rather use frags now" when placing traps, do you?
actually, with 5 slots unchanged pt ph. nades would be taken quite often just for tracking, fake nades and fun.

[InvisibleMan999]

wrong. you can't take frags twice, and you don't think "i'd rather use frags now" when placing traps, do you?
actually, with 5 slots unchanged pt ph. nades would be taken quite often just for tracking, fake nades and fun.

While true, this shouldn't be the premise behind gadget balance. You should balance gadgets given the assumption that all gadgets are equally powerful. The reason you choose one gadget over another should not hinge on the gadget itself, but rather on a combination of:

-Your playstyle
-Your opponent's playstyle
-The map

The moment you start saying "This gadget is like frags, but worse" you run into trouble.

Then again, I'm all for gadget balance that lets people take as many of a gadget as they want. If people want 4 packs of 4 frags each for 20 total, I say, let them. It'd be a pretty uncreative loadout, but it wouldn't unbalance the game. Hell, on xbox there was a glitch that let people do that, and I didn't even care about playing them. No gas mask, no mines... those guys are easy.

But the point is, you should be taking gadgets because you want them, not just because there's nothing else to take.

[Spekkio]

The moment you start saying "This gadget is like frags, but worse" you run into trouble.

But it's not like frags. The main point of incendiary nades are to mark your opponent for EMF. The damage is a secondary bonus to make spies move instead of saying "ok, I'm marked, I'll just sit in this cloud until it wears off."

Their function isn't to hit a spy off an objective. That's why you have frags and bullets.

The way to make all gadgets useful is to first keep their functions and roles as unique as possible. Then, make sure that each of those roles are actually useful in the context of a game. I can think of multiple places where an incendiary grenade could be useful. Yes, hitting a spy off the last objective isn't one of them, but we don't need them for that.

[Gawain]

invisible, do you really think that making ph nades that awesome that a significant number of people would trade off frags for them would be good for the balance? no1 would trade off frags for spy traps with a gadget balancing anywhere near the current one. it would be very hard to preserve the core gameplay and balance with totally free choice of gadget loadouts, but it would also be absolutely amazing if done well (smoke nades/sticky cams <=> gas mask would be a hard nut to crack)...

it's really hard to compare gadgets good in totally different tasks...