Possible Sound Reticule for Spies? New heartbeat suggestions?

[B1nArY_001]

If it gets in, it would probably become a gadget anyway. Else it will outbalance the advantage of the merc IMHO.

If? If a gadget with these features made it into Project Stealth I would lose all faith in the rest of the Development Team and consider my time with this project at its end. No joke. It isn't needed and in trying to balance this it would either wind up too powerful or absolutely useless with the kind of features being suggested.

To quote Spekkio "Let's just give the Spies a rocket launcher."

Edit: Where's Daybreak to give us a little image of Spies fragging mercs, bloody limbs flying through the air...?!

[Farley4Fan]

Okay that's where I draw the line.  Honestly.  Come on now.  You guys are making it seem like a gadget that can either be completely op (like a rocket launcher ffs seriously now) or that it would be useless.  A rocket launcher?  Get real.  It's just something to help people interperet where a sound came from.  Especially if someone has a shitty sound card/a shitty speaker set up.  I know you were being sarcastic but rocket launcher will never equal something like this.  Going by that logic hbs = rocket launcher or flamethrower

no.

[Spekkio]

I agree with b1nary. This idea is retarded.

Binary never said the idea was retarded. To be a tad more useful, why not elaborate as to why this idea is retarded? We live in a world of justification...so get to it.

B1nary already did a fine job of it. Go read his post on page 3 or 4.

[Farley4Fan]

And yes it is a fine rant.  But he is missing the functionalities and uses of the gadget.  He has ignored what it could actually do.

[Westfall]

sound interpretation and experience where and when the mercs will appear is part of the game and seperates players of different skill. with a good sound implementation (eg hearing nades shot from mid distance etc), the hbs and spy bullets are way enough (if not too much) for recon.

If it gets in, it would probably become a gadget anyway. Else it will outbalance the advantage of the merc IMHO.

If? If a gadget with these features made it into Project Stealth I would lose all faith in the rest of the Development Team and consider my time with this project at its end. No joke. It isn't needed and in trying to balance this it would either wind up too powerful or absolutely useless with the kind of features being suggested.

To quote Spekkio "Let's just give the Spies a rocket launcher."

Edit: Where's Daybreak to give us a little image of Spies fragging mercs, bloody limbs flying through the air...?!

Why don't we just call this game "Chaos Theory + Tweaks: Next Generation"

Seems fitting since keeping an open mind is practically impossible here. All that is happening so far are new model designs and tweaks to certain gadgets. If you can't keep an open-mind when doing any project....why bother?

Just forget that any new gadget was ever thought of....because it automatically doesn't fit Project Stealth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this gadget. It is neither unbalanced nor overpowering for the spy AND IT TAKES UP A SLOT. Try it before you hate on it. Or is it "too time consuming"?

And Binary's rant is just that...a rant. All of his points can be disproven or adjusted to show how incorrect he just might be. Maybe you should read it again...with less of a rant mentality, and more of a "what would you answer and how can each one of those options either be changed or tossed completely."

Also, trying to say that you will quit the project because you don't like AH gadget shows awesome character. Your dedication has been awesome thus far, but why say such a thing? To sway the views of everyone else? "OH NOES...BIN4RY LEAVES IF WE HAVE SPY RETICULE..../WORLD" Don't manipulate.

[Farley4Fan]

What I don't get is that he will leave if this gadget is even considered.  ALL gadgets should be considered because they could work out great for gameplay.  The popular ideas should be tested and see how they actually perform and not what we speculate about their peformance/balance. 

Here is a little scenario of what new gadgets could do for gameplay.  Note that some of the gadgets were already discussed and not wanted...

A spy is sneaking around in a large area like the main room in factory.  A merc is patrolling the walkways overlooking the large area the spy is in.  The spy wants to keep moving quickly but still be able to detect mercs.  So, he activates his spy reticule. 

The merc sees the spy and so he uses a grappling hook to swing down over the railings onto the floor where the spy is.  The spy detects the sound of the grappling hook and turns to see the merc landing on the ground right behind him.  At this point he only has one shot left on his ss because of the energy the reticule used.  He gets off one shot and tazes the merc just in time.  He hallucinates/flashes the merc.  The hallucination nade makes images of spys appear in the corner of his screen.  He realizes they are hallucinations and he sees what he thinks is the actual spy and chases it.
He chases the spy for a good 10 seconds and sees that he goes through a wall.  It was a holopod. 

Meanwhile the spy is escaping and heading for an objective.  At the objective he sees that a merc is planting mines.  The spy sees that his teammate is trying to sneak around the mines and get to a passageway that leads to the objective.  The spy then uses his hack glove to slowly get a few seconds shaved off of the objective.  The merc storms in and uses his adjustable flashlight and finds the spy.  He puts a few bullets the spy's chest and shoulder.  The spy dives over a ledge using an escape move and throws a smoke down on the merc.  Stupidly, the spy has NV turned on just because of the sheer darkness of the map and how hard it is to navigate without it.  The merc flips on EMF and puts a bullet right in the spy's gut killiing him instantly.  The spy hears the gunshot and sees a splat of blood on the wall behind his partner's dead body.

It's all up to him.  He decides to take an aggro approach.  He puts a hologram of a crouched spy in the objective room.  He runs up, hacks the objective for 2 seconds and hides behind the door.  He waits for the merc to come in.  He does.  The merc foolishly  charges the hologram and hits the wall, the spy then runs up quickly and grabs him.  The spy throws a bunch of chaff down in the room around him and begins to hack the objective manually.  The other merc throws a grenade into the room but the chaff disables the frag for just the right amount of time to finish the objective.

HOLY SHIZA!  Did I write all of that?  :o I think that would be some good gameplay though...

Damn, I'm bored.  But yeah, that's a scenario that I could come up with that would only come from new features/gadgets...

[B1nArY_001]

Also, trying to say that you will quit the project because you don't like AH gadget shows awesome character. Your dedication has been awesome thus far, but why say such a thing? To sway the views of everyone else? "OH NOES...BIN4RY LEAVES IF WE HAVE SPY RETICULE..../WORLD" Don't manipulate.

It's not about manipulation but rather to illustrate how strongly I feel about this. You will also note I specifically stated that I feel that way about the gadget with its current suggested features. I wouldn't play the game if it had a gadget like this. Why then would I want to spend my time helping to create it!?

EDIT: It should also be noted that I am in no way disillusioned, this is team is not lucky to have me. Quite the opposite, I consider myself fortunate to be a member of this team. If I left they could easily replace me thus trying to manipulate anyone with a threat to leave would be completely retarded and accomplish nothing.

I really hate saying an idea is terrible because I'm a firm believer that a horrible idea can evolve into something quite useful. In this case I just can't see how that can happen. I've given it quite a bit of consideration and there is nothing that has been posted and nothing I can come up with that validates the need for a gadget like this. There are however quite a few good arguments against it; very solid arguments. Don't ask me what they are because they have pretty much all been posted already and you can read through this thread for yourself.

It's not about not having an open mind either, it's about knowing where to draw the line and differentiate good and useful from bad and pointless. Sure some people have crappy speakers etc etc but this mod is being made for UT3. If your system can run UT3 then you can afford at least stereo speakers and stereo speakers are enough to hear a sound and your brain is perfectly capable of ascertaining the source and location based on experience. If you make a game where nothing is based on experience then you've created a game that is less challenging than it could be.

[Gawain]

papa, if you have problems with sound awareness and locating, you should get some good headphones and a decent sound card (both not that expensive compared to a gfx card) and not urge for some crappy gadget that would only help noobs with less experience and add nothing to the gameplay. your example with the merc grappling down behind the spy is just ridiculous, this would never ever happen to a good spy and the spy should be punished for his bad recon/awareness.

there's so much to fix regarding the ct sound, and a gadget like this would even complicate the sound system for no reason at all.

i'm really happy that a member of the dev team finally draws a line against your stupid gadget suggestions. the problem is not that you do some brainstorming and present your ideas, the problem is that you lack ct pc experience and that you spam threads and posts for topics not worth further discussion.

[frvge]

A gadget idea is never stupid when backed up with arguments. If you think the arguments are void, that's your opinion. At least he took the time to list reasons.

[B1nArY_001]

i'm really happy that a member of the dev team finally draws a line against your stupid gadget suggestions.

Please don't put words in my mouth or attempt to interpret my intentions beyond what I have said. I very specifically stated THIS gadget THESE features and I don't particularly appreciate the spin you put on what I've had to say.

I also appreciate and respect Papa's efforts to contribute ideas for Project Stealth. The fact that I don't think this one is a good gadget for Project Stealth means nothing except that very thing - I don't think this is a good idea for Project Stealth. Nothing less, nothing more.

[Farley4Fan]

papa, if you have problems with sound awareness and locating, you should get some good headphones and a decent sound card (both not that expensive compared to a gfx card) and not urge for some crappy gadget that would only help noobs with less experience and add nothing to the gameplay.
I have no problems with sound awareness.  It's hard for everyone to pinpoint a location that a sound comes from.  Regardless of how efficient your ears/sound card are.  I can hear things, sure (except maybe nades fired at long distances due to the lack of EAX or just a difference of PC-console), but it is hard to tell which direction it comes from - not to mention the exact point.  This is why I also suggested putting a blip on the radar where the sound came from.


your example with the merc grappling down behind the spy is just ridiculous, this would never ever happen to a good spy and the spy should be punished for his bad recon/awareness.
If he hadn't used the reticule for RECON then he would have been punished, by death.  Understand?

there's so much to fix regarding the ct sound, and a gadget like this would even complicate the sound system for no reason at all.
complicate it?  How exactly?  IF anything, it would help it.

i'm really happy that a member of the dev team finally draws a line against your stupid gadget suggestions. the problem is not that you do some brainstorming and present your ideas, the problem is that you lack ct pc experience and that you spam threads and posts for topics not worth further discussion.
What the hell?  Where did you get that idea?  If that was so all of my topics would have been deleted.  PLEASE, don't twist words.

I also appreciate and respect Papa's efforts to contribute ideas for Project Stealth. The fact that I don't think this one is a good gadget for Project Stealth means nothing except that very thing - I don't think this is a good idea for Project Stealth. Nothing less, nothing more.

Thanks.  And I admit that some of my ideas weren't that great, the score system for example.

Also, trying to say that you will quit the project because you don't like AH gadget shows awesome character. Your dedication has been awesome thus far, but why say such a thing? To sway the views of everyone else? "OH NOES...BIN4RY LEAVES IF WE HAVE SPY RETICULE..../WORLD" Don't manipulate.

It's not about manipulation but rather to illustrate how strongly I feel about this. You will also note I specifically stated that I feel that way about the gadget with its current suggested features. I wouldn't play the game if it had a gadget like this. Why then would I want to spend my time helping to create it!?
Just don't use the gadget if you think it is so useless.  And if it so useless I am sure you would have no problem whatsoever playing against someone who IS using it.

EDIT: It should also be noted that I am in no way disillusioned, this is team is not lucky to have me. Quite the opposite, I consider myself fortunate to be a member of this team. If I left they could easily replace me thus trying to manipulate anyone with a threat to leave would be completely retarded and accomplish nothing.
I understand that completely.  Your first post on that topic just made it sound a little like a threat though  :P

I really hate saying an idea is terrible because I'm a firm believer that a horrible idea can evolve into something quite useful. In this case I just can't see how that can happen. I've given it quite a bit of consideration and there is nothing that has been posted and nothing I can come up with that validates the need for a gadget like this. There are however quite a few good arguments against it; very solid arguments. Don't ask me what they are because they have pretty much all been posted already and you can read through this thread for yourself.
No solid arguments for it?  How?  It seems there are a few people that would find a use in this gadget.  Mainly, this is a gadget so you can do recon, but still be able to move full speed.  Of course it isn't the best method for recon, but you won't lose time using it or make yourself a sitting duck like heartbeat makes you.  It's just an alternative method for locating on the fly.  Heartbeat doesn't allow you to do that.

It's not about not having an open mind either, it's about knowing where to draw the line and differentiate good and useful from bad and pointless. Sure some people have crappy speakers etc etc but this mod is being made for UT3. If your system can run UT3 then you can afford at least stereo speakers and stereo speakers are enough to hear a sound and your brain is perfectly capable of ascertaining the source and location based on experience. If you make a game where nothing is based on experience then you've created a game that is less challenging than it could be.
It's not about speakers.  Speakers don't help you pinpoint locations on your radar or point you to them.  You just hear them.  Unless you have surround sound.  Even then, it doesn't help you know exactly where a sound came from.  Another thing I suggested is letting this device give players the ability to automatically hack into merc communications when they are in a range of 2-3 meters.  It wouldn't tell you that you can hack of course.  But if you hold down the hack button you'll hack into their conversation and maybe download the text chat?  New idea.  Now that would be a use we would all like right?

Don't get me wrong.  I can understand everyone's opinion here.  I just have a different one, and so do others, it's all cool.

WOW!  Another monster post by Papa Skull.  :D   Most of it was quotes though...

[Xris]

i agree with binary once again, papa i love your input, but I think that this one idea is not need just because of the way that they are going to implement sound etc vs SC

[Farley4Fan]

Well that's cool man.  Anyone else got anymore opinions on this?  Or suggestions/modifications?  I still believe that making hbs have the alternate option to detect electronics rather than heartbeats would be terrific.  That's an optional feature, not a additional feature.  Meaning you choose whether you want your hbs to detect hearbeats or electronics before the game starts.

[Westfall]

I understand your reasoning Binary, but it doesn't fully cut it for me. Maybe if we could talk about it some more. This gadget would not at all be pointless. The additions Papa throws out there are kind of funky, but a simple sound reticule for spies is purely ingenious.

I like how Gaiwan attacked Papa, though I was the one that made such a ruthless post.

[Farley4Fan]

Seriously.  Come on Gawain.  As if the ban gawain thread wasn't enough.