Possible Sound Reticule for Spies? New heartbeat suggestions?

[Farley4Fan]

Then why do you guys need a fifth slot?  That seems like a pretty desperate attempt at a comeback imo.

I don't need any slots. Give me a rocket launcher instead of that castrated P90, and I'll omgwtfpwnz mercs all day long.

I made a pretty extensive post on why a fifth slot would be good 2 pages ago. I suggest you go re-read it and come up with a better counter than "but omfg why do you need it?"

Dude, you are arguing a dead case.  I've been down that road.  Don't do it.  Maybe it's not a dead case but that was a pretty weak explanation for why it should be in. Rocket launcher is the same thing.  It's freaking unnecessary.  You may have made a post but that's all it was.  A post.  It didn't convince me and others that it is needed.  All of the post was totally obvious and it hardly states why a fifth slot is needed.  That's like me saying grenades are useful, so we need to give mercs 10 nades.  Well, maybe not exactly like that but you get my point.  They aren't needed, sorry, i mean there is no point to giving them to mercs.

[Gawain]

if you consider spekkio's arguments that weak, why don't you even bother to counter them??

[Spekkio]

Rocket launcher is the same thing.  It's freaking unnecessary. 

A rocket launcher for spies isn't a bad idea because it's unnecessary; it's bad because it would completely ruin the gameplay dynamic of stealthy and agile spies vs. slow and deadly mercs. There are a lot of situations in SvM where I think a rocket launcher would be a necessary item. Ever play missile strike?

Five gadgets vs. four doesn't change that dynamic.

Any other bad comparisons you want to make?

When you find a good and practical use for a 5th slot, then start to jabber about it.

Now your posts are getting fucking annoying, and this line shows that you didn't read my post, either.

A practical use for a 5th slot? Try taking camo + snares, two equipment items that tend to compliment each other, and see where it gets you in CT.

Mask and Camo don't need to be in inherent gadgets. If you don't pick something you need, that's your own damn fault.

Well, this is the problem: the mask has become pretty much a "must-have" gadget due to the way cams work. I personally think that when gadgets specifically hard counter each other, it's bad, because you can't swap equipment during the match (and even if you could it'd turn into a clusterfuck of guessing). Therefore, I would say to give hard-counter gadgets unconditionally, so that you know and expect the other team to have it.

If camo were always integrated into the spy equipment, it could be worked to be a hard counter to MT. Then you have EMF> camo > MT > moving without camo > EMF.

An example of good dynamic is that flashbangs are better vs. snipers because they take them out of scope, but they are still useful against people taking the uzi and shotgun. Smoke is better vs. uzi and shotgun because it stops people from chasing you, but it still does conceal you from snipers somewhat.

The mask has no other use except to specifically counter smoke and cams. It's not like it offers some sort of benefit to flashbangs, chaff, or any other equipment the spy is using. But since 99.99999repeated% of people take cams, the mask becomes a must-have.

In essence, taking the mask isn't a "choice." It's a given. If you don't take it, you're going to just get owned by cam spam.
----------------------------

Another thing that could be tried is not necessarily having both sides take the same amount of equipment. You could, for example, have spies select 5 optional gadgets, while the mercs get free mask + 4 selectable. Since mercs tend to win more than spies anyway, doing this could help balance out the game a little more. Both sides get 5 gadgets, but the spies have more combinations available to them.

[Westfall]

When you find a good and practical use for a 5th slot, then start to jabber about it.

Now your posts are getting fucking annoying, and this line shows that you didn't read my post, either.

A practical use for a 5th slot? Try taking camo + snares, two equipment items that tend to compliment each other, and see where it gets you in CT.

My posts get annoying because they make you think a little more, but then you go right back to believing that 5 slots is the brilliant idea of the year. Maybe YOU sir deserve the gold star. I read your post....have yet to see a practical use and/or necessary reason to have 5 gadgets. I need to see why 5 gadgets is a good thing....all of your arguments have yet to show me 1 GOOD/LEGITIMATE reason why 5 slots is actually balanced and good for PS.

I've been saying its overpowering, which it is and will be. Camo and sound devices do compliment each other well. Thats 2 gadgets. You want the option of having 3 more with you? Have cams and hb sensor or spy bullet. Thats 4 gadgets. Then you can pick one nade. The idea CT had was that you couldn't take everything you wanted and needed to choose wisely. With 5 gadgets, you get a little bit of everything and the merc gets EVERYTHING.

The last part of your post got me thinking. If you really want a side to get 5 gadgets, only the spy side should get it. Merc side is already powerful enough. Maybe this is the balance we are looking for.

if you consider spekkio's arguments that weak, why don't you even bother to counter them??

Good thing you're here and giving valuable input. n00b or vet?  ;)

Theres nothing to counter. I've told Spekkio his post was a fine argument, but everything we all pretty much know. Its funny, because someone drops some ratios everyone feels that the topic is over.

[Spekkio]

My posts get annoying because they make you think a little more,

Excuse me? Your posts are fucking annoying because they're asinine 1-liners sprinkled with insults. Stuff like:

"5 gadgets would be overpowered. YOU FUCKING KNOW IT!"

Only makes me think that you're a fucking retard, and nothing more. Why the fuck would I make a case for 5 gadgets if I knew it would be imbalanced???

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Well, i think Gawain is looking on PS through a CT prisma, from what i noticed...

[neth]

This gets personal.


I agree that adding 5th gadget would make the game even more unbalanced than it is now. You can still write blocks of letters but it wont change the FACT that, as Westfall said, mercs would have everything they need and the dillema of choosing would be gone.

Why the fuck would I make a case for 5 gadgets if I knew it would be imbalanced???

People make mistakes, you know.

[Farley4Fan]

Spekkio.  Why don't you tell us a reason why it would be good for the gameplay.  AND DO NOT refer us back to your post a few pages back.  Because it doesn't explain a thing.  Just tell us, one reason. 

I honestly don't know why you are making a case for this then because it WOULD be unbalanced ffs!  Merc basically gets everything he wants!  That is unbalanced!  Just the fact that it would reduce teamplay A LOT and it would also reduce smart decisions you have to make while choosing gadgets should be enough for you to drop this idiotic suggestion. kthxbai

Excuse me? Your posts are fucking annoying because they're asinine 1-liners sprinkled with insults. Stuff like:

"5 gadgets would be overpowered. YOU FUCKING KNOW IT!"

Only makes me think that you're a fucking retard, and nothing more. Why the fuck would I make a case for 5 gadgets if I knew it would be imbalanced???

LOL wtf?  And what was that Spekkio?  An asinine post sprinkled with insults.  Fuckin hippocrite.

Nice post neth.

[Spekkio]

You can still write blocks of letters but it wont change the FACT that,

I think that you need to learn the definition of a fact.

fact      /fækt/
ââ,¬â€œnoun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact. 
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact. 
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth. 
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable. 
5. Law. Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law. 

The problem is that PS doesn't exist yet. It is not a fact that the game will be horribly imbalanced because of 5 gadgets; it's your reactionary assumption.

Spekkio.  Why don't you tell us a reason why it would be good for the gameplay.  AND DO NOT refer us back to your post a few pages back.  Because it doesn't explain a thing.  Just tell us, one reason. 

I don't like to take the time to repeat myself, so I'm going to now quote the parts where I specifically outlined gameplay improvements that could result from 5 gadgets:

In summary: increasing the loadout capacity would increase the variety in the game. You can easily balance stuff out via tweaking the gadgets themselves and the maps after the fact.

So we have reason 1: variety.

As I said before: try taking camo + snares and winning with them. "Oh but just take camz + HB LOL!" No, it doesn't work like that because now you're stuck in a one-dimensional role. Which means anytime your partner is in position to hack and you have to guard him, you're both fucked. So now the loadout is grenade/grenade/cams/hb 95% of the time because of that.

Okay, that's CT. Now let's move onto PS where the tazer is actually viable and flares are made useful or replaced by something that is. What do you give up for it?

Reason 2: the current system only works because two gadgets per team are essentially useless. With a choice of 5 among 8 fully useful gadgets, you would still have to carefully choose your equipment to suit your playstyle.

First, some math:
In PT, you could take 4/6 gadgets = 2/3
In CT, you can take 4/8 gadgets = 1/2.
If you expand gadgets to 5/8, 1/2 < 5/8 < 2/3. So you still get to select a lower % of equipment items than in PT even with being able to pick 5 gadgets.

We have reason 3: PT was just as balanced as CT, yet we could take a higher percentage of available equipment. Therefore, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that the developers of PS could up the percentage of gadgets one could take and still produce a balanced game.

As far as spies, taking a loadout that requires your teammate to be complete pretty much mandates that you A) have a set teammate and B) stick together with him. There are some people who don't have that. Making the game more friendly to people who just want to "pick up and play" so that we have more than 10 players online at 8pm EST is as close to a "necessary" reason for expanding the slots as you're going to get.

Reason 4: more attractive to casual gamers. You can go on and on about how teamwork should be necessary blah blah. Fact is, if someone can't just login and hop into a game and still enjoy yourself, then he's going to go play another game. It's even frustrating for me, as a vet/pro/noob/whatever, to try and play solo in CT right now. I'm not saying that teamwork ought to be removed, but I am saying that requiring too much teamwork is a bad thing.

Tell me: why is it a good thing that it's impossible to even get into Station when your teammate is dead? Why is it a good thing that it's impossible to do anything on Aqua by yourself if Greek isn't complete because 3/6 objectives are locked off?

So there you go: I've provided 4 reasons (and probably some more in the past 3 pages) why this idea at least merits testing. All you and Westfall have done is ignore them and spit nonsense.

Finally, some dictionary lessons for you:

asÃ,·iÃ,·nine      /ˈæsÉâ,,¢Ã‹Å'naɪn/
ââ,¬â€œadjective
1. foolish, unintelligent, or silly; stupid: It is surprising that supposedly intelligent people can make such asinine statements. 
2. of or like an ass: asinine obstinacy; asinine features. 

My post wasn't stupid. It was expressing my frustration with Westfall's stupidity.

You should also learn to spell hypocrite, in addition to learning what it means:

hypÃ,·oÃ,·crite      /ˈhɪpÉâ,,¢krɪt/
ââ,¬â€œnoun
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. 

Exactly what moral beliefs am I contradicting with the post you quoted?

[Farley4Fan]

1.  The current game of CT would be horribly unbalanced by giving each team 5 gadgets.  And since it will be a CLONE OF CT with some minor changes and additions, the same principle applies.  ESPECIALLY if the gadgets are all useful in their own right in PS.

2.  I spelled hypocrite wrong because there is a box of hungry hungry hippos right next to my desk.  My cousin left it here, he's 4, and it caught my eye and I spelled it that way. lol  Funny mistake on my part.  Maybe hippocrite is more of an insult anyways lol. :D

3.  I know what hypocrite means.  You criticized westfall for giving asinine one liners sprinkled with insults when you basically did the SAME EXACT THING spekkio.  Therefore, making YOU a hypocrite.

4.  You bring the comparison of balance between CT and PT into the conversation when it has nothing to do with my argument.  My argument was the difficulty to choose gadgets.  It was essentially much easier to choose a loadout in PT than in CT because of the fact that you could take the majority of the gadgets.  How you bring balance into the conversation is moronic and you miss my point.

5.  Variety.  You add variety by adding gadgets.  Not by letting you take more of the existing ones. 

6. 

Reason 4: more attractive to casual gamers. You can go on and on about how teamwork should be necessary blah blah. Fact is, if someone can't just login and hop into a game and still enjoy yourself, then he's going to go play another game.

are you serious?  You think that it's better to remove elements of teamplay so you can get more players in the community.  Sacrificing key elements of the game to make it more attractive to more players IS one thing that made DA suck so horribly!  That's unbelievable.  And do you really think that people are going to go "oh, you can carry 5 gadgets at once and not just 4?!  Awesome!  I want this game!"  Truth is, they probably won't.

7. 

My post wasn't stupid

Nope, not really.  But it was hypocritical.

[Spekkio]

are you serious?  You think that it's better to remove elements of teamplay so you can get more players in the community.  Sacrificing key elements of the game to make it more attractive to more players IS one thing that made DA suck so horribly!  That's unbelievable.  And do you really think that people are going to go "oh, you can carry 5 gadgets at once and not just 4?!  Awesome!  I want this game!"  Truth is, they probably won't.

Five gadgets alone probably won't change anyone's mind. However, more gadgets in conjunction with other changes might. Teamwork is good, but having any chance of winning at spy in CT relies far too much on having a set teammate and a microphone to attract a wide player base. Like I mentioned before, there are quite a few maps and situations where you simply have absolutely no chance of victory once your partner dies off. Aside from that, requiring people to spend hundreds of hours in a game with the same teammate in order to be competitive is just stupid.

The key is to have teamplay enhance effectiveness, and not to be a requirement for effectiveness.

Also, you may know the definition of hypocrite, but it's obvious that you don't understand it (big surprise there). Even if my post were asinine and insulting (which it wasn't), I still wouldn't be a hypocrite and the post would not be "hypocritical." For me to be a hypocrite, I must first say something like "I believe that making asinine and insulting posts is morally detestable" (definition 1) or "I never make asinine and insulting posts" (definition 2). I said, or implied, no such thing.

[Farley4Fan]

Five gadgets alone probably won't change anyone's mind.
Right.
However, more gadgets in conjunction with other changes might.
Yeah, new  gadgets, not more of the ones we already have.  The thing that attracted me to the series was mainly the fact that you could be stealthy and use shadows to sneak around your opponent.  The other thing was how deep the MP seemed to be.  It looked like a nice break from all the arcadish shooters which aren't so bad, but they lack something.  TEAMWORK.
Teamwork is good, but having any chance of winning at spy in CT relies far too much on having a set teammate and a microphone to attract a wide player base.
When a merc has 5 gadgets, what good is 5 gadgets going to do for you?  You'll hardly ever win as spy going against a merc with frags, gasmask, mines, backpack, and a tazer/camnet.  That is an amazing combination that was restricted in CT thanks to the balanced amount of gadgets you could carry.
Like I mentioned before, there are quite a few maps and situations where you simply have absolutely no chance of victory once your partner dies off. Aside from that, requiring people to spend hundreds of hours in a game with the same teammate in order to be competitive is just stupid.
Yeah.  Again.  This game needs to require teamwork.  If a 2 mercs or even just 1 merc has 5 gadgets he'll easily be able to detect you and kill you.  Even with a teammate you'll probably be screwed most of the time.
The key is to have teamplay enhance effectiveness, and not to be a requirement for effectiveness.
Again, you'll have little effectiveness with mercs using 10 gadgets that will all be useful in their own rights.
Also, you may know the definition of hypocrite, but it's obvious that you don't understand it (big surprise there). Even if my post were asinine and insulting (which it wasn't), I still wouldn't be a hypocrite and the post would not be "hypocritical." For me to be a hypocrite, I must first say something like "I believe that making asinine and insulting posts is morally detestable" (definition 1) or "I never make asinine and insulting posts" (definition 2). I said, or implied, no such thing.
You said plenty of things that attempted to insult Westfall.  Then you lashed at him for attempting to insult you.  That seems hypocritical to me.

[Westfall]

reason 1: variety.

As I said before: try taking camo + snares and winning with them. "Oh but just take camz + HB LOL!" No, it doesn't work like that because now you're stuck in a one-dimensional role. Which means anytime your partner is in position to hack and you have to guard him, you're both fucked. So now the loadout is grenade/grenade/cams/hb 95% of the time because of that.

Variety? What variety is there in choosing 5/8 gadgets. Its more like, take whatever the hell you want. There would be a variety to choose from if you only had to select 3 gadgets. That would make the option of selection more critical compared to 5 gadgets. So, reason no. 1 makes sense....more gadgets/better gadgets....and you get to choose 5? That doesn't sound balanced at all. Moving on....

Okay, that's CT. Now let's move onto PS where the tazer is actually viable and flares are made useful or replaced by something that is. What do you give up for it?

Reason 2: the current system only works because two gadgets per team are essentially useless. With a choice of 5 among 8 fully useful gadgets, you would still have to carefully choose your equipment to suit your playstyle.

So, 10 gadgets/team sounds balanced. Granted you both couldn't even select 5 different gadgets if there are only 8. You would both have to take something similar and then figure out which of you can have certain eq. Whereas 4 gadgets allows no mixing (optional of course) and both sides could actually take 1 of each gadget (bad idea though). 3 gadgets makes things a little more interesting because now you have to give up some things and choose wisely.  If I get to pick 5 gadgets, I won't choose wisely. No one will. You get 5 gadgets....thats a SHITLOAD of gadgets. Again proving an imbalance. 

First, some math:
In PT, you could take 4/6 gadgets = 2/3
In CT, you can take 4/8 gadgets = 1/2.
If you expand gadgets to 5/8, 1/2 < 5/8 < 2/3. So you still get to select a lower % of equipment items than in PT even with being able to pick 5 gadgets.

We have reason 3: PT was just as balanced as CT, yet we could take a higher percentage of available equipment. Therefore, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that the developers of PS could up the percentage of gadgets one could take and still produce a balanced game.

But like its been said, 2 of the gadgets for merc side were practically not used (flares + tazer) and you spared some nades as a spy(either hb or bullets taken, and you don't use 1/3 nades). Really it only acted like 4/6 gadgets were selectable in CT. 5/8 gadgets with modified uses for certain gadgets doesn't make a balance. It makes them overpowered in a sense, or rather the idea of 5 gadgets over-powering.

As far as spies, taking a loadout that requires your teammate to be complete pretty much mandates that you A) have a set teammate and B) stick together with him. There are some people who don't have that. Making the game more friendly to people who just want to "pick up and play" so that we have more than 10 players online at 8pm EST is as close to a "necessary" reason for expanding the slots as you're going to get.

Reason 4: more attractive to casual gamers. You can go on and on about how teamwork should be necessary blah blah. Fact is, if someone can't just login and hop into a game and still enjoy yourself, then he's going to go play another game. It's even frustrating for me, as a vet/pro/noob/whatever, to try and play solo in CT right now. I'm not saying that teamwork ought to be removed, but I am saying that requiring too much teamwork is a bad thing.

It is frustrating to play solo on maps, but it was your choice to hop on alone and not have someone with you yea? Your call in the end. No on said, "You have to play us alone Spekkio because you're teh l33t." This game isn't really the solo type multiplayer. It never has been. You can't just hop into a game and expect to be happy playing with a n00b. You chose it though. This is where different game modes would be interesting. It doesn't justify upping the gadgets you should take. Because you have a 5th slot will make you win solo? Not if the other team has a 5th slot...each. You know you can still practically handle some teams by yourself. You work solo when you're working with your team sometimes too, because splitting up is not always a bad thing...only in scary movies.

Tell me: why is it a good thing that it's impossible to even get into Station when your teammate is dead? Why is it a good thing that it's impossible to do anything on Aqua by yourself if Greek isn't complete because 3/6 objectives are locked off?

Well, if you're mate died 5 times on station and you are left without him....thats the end of your round really. If you can't finish aqua because Greek isn't finished....thats the end of your round also. Doesn't justify an additional gadget. Thats just poor map design.

So there you go: I've provided 4 reasons (and probably some more in the past 3 pages) why this idea at least merits testing. All you and Westfall have done is ignore them and spit nonsense.

Only one of your reasons was remotely good on the topic of 5 gadgets: variety. Even then its still an imbalance. Why don't you reassess and try again. The last thing I would ever need from you are dictionary lessons. I know those were pointed towards papa, but just saying. Also, there isn't a real need to insult someone because they misspelled a word. Anyone can do that. Doesn't make you a big deal or anything.

You were being hypocritical (as says your brilliantly found definition) and your voicing about an additional 5th gadget has been just as equal, if not more, asinine. Because you posted something long does not make you god. People here respect what you have to say because you've played for quite some time. Shit, you were playing long before Noise and I were. While you have experience, everyone else here who played/plays CT has just as much experience (if not more). Its hard to justify something when we are talking about balance. I haven't really been spitting nonsense. I've been waiting for you to give your reasons, which clearly aren't as "awesome" as they were supposed to be. If you had actually justified yourself and made a point, you could sway the opinion of many. Unfortunately, there are no rational/balanced reasons you've given.

Five gadgets alone probably won't change anyone's mind. However, more gadgets in conjunction with other changes might. Teamwork is good, but having any chance of winning at spy in CT relies far too much on having a set teammate and a microphone to attract a wide player base. Like I mentioned before, there are quite a few maps and situations where you simply have absolutely no chance of victory once your partner dies off. Aside from that, requiring people to spend hundreds of hours in a game with the same teammate in order to be competitive is just stupid.

I've played with you and many others as my teammate. Granted things didn't always go according to plan, but the games were fun nonetheless. This type of game has the learning curve where you have to play for a while to understand the mechanics behind your moves/gadgets/map design/teammate. So really, you can play with who you like, but you should choose someone who has played longer and knows the game. This, as goes for all the other SvM games, has a learning curve. You have to be dedicated to the game if you are going to learn anything. Hopping on and hoping to find a good server isn't as reliable as x-firing a buddy and hopping on. This then leads to teamwork with someone who knows the game.

The key is to have teamplay enhance effectiveness, and not to be a requirement for effectiveness.

With this type of game, teamplay is the only thing that will really enhance effectiveness. Unless you were to play a "mini game" and act solo. Some people made 1v1 maps for CT (waste imo), but an interesting concept nonetheless. We will see what PS has to offer in those respects. Otherwise, if you choose to play by yourself, the game will treat you as necessary. Likewise if you hop on with a friend.

[Gawain]

why would 5 gadgets allow now balance? it's certainly possible to balance it out, you guys have to stop thinking in ct balance.
if 5 gadgets result in spam, it would be an easy solution to simply decrease the amount of each gadget. heck, i even would like to see the number of sticky cams reduced to 3 in ct.

it takes not that much brain to choose between gadgets before the game even starts, it's rather the skill it takes to adapt to various ingame situations with the restricted gadget loadout you have. with 5 slots there will be less variety in gadget loadouts but more variety in gameplay.

teamplay will always be crucial in svm and not having 3 instead of 4 gadgets doesn't make significant difference.

i also can't see why the merc side would gain more advantage from 5 gadgets than the spy side. with fixed sound and mt it'll get way harder for the mercs to compete against stealth. with the jump-against-grab glitch and the push-instead-of-grab bug removed and reliable flashbangs it will also be quite necessary to take the tazer against aggro players. good spies are also way less likely to die without lag charges and insta frags.

[Farley4Fan]

Gawain.  Just giving one slot for one more gadget is very significant to the gameplay.  Especially if there are no new gadgets added to the game.  It doesn't take "much brain" to choose the gadgets now.  But there still is that element of sacrificing one gadget to get another.   With 5 gadgets, that's gone, out the window.

i also can't see why the merc side would gain more advantage from 5 gadgets than the spy side. with fixed sound and mt it'll get way harder for the mercs to compete against stealth. with the jump-against-grab glitch and the push-instead-of-grab bug removed and reliable flashbangs it will also be quite necessary to take the tazer against aggro players. good spies are also way less likely to die without lag charges and insta frags

That's the thing.  Mercs won't have to sacrifice ANYTHING to take the tazer with them.  A merc with a fixed tazer is going to be pretty good against aggro spies.  If that same merc also has frags he is going to be great against aggro spies.  If that same merc also has gasmask he's going to be even better against aggro spies.  Now here is the catch.  Should the merc take mines or camnet?  Camnet for searching for spies, or mines for a possible kill or two?  The merc doesn't have to decide, he can take all of them.  This makes him good at recon and GREAT against aggro.  He has VERY little weaknesses, if any, making him overpowered.