Mines again.

[Westfall]

we so had this discussion at least one time before when goodkebap suggested the ability to throw mines, but rather in the anti-aggro context than in the placement-in-vents context, and afaik we agreed that it was a quite bad idea.

We did.

[Blank Man]

Well, if the spy can't reach the mine, the mine can't reach the spy  ;) So the merc just needs to be smart where to place.

Wrong. What if a merc throws a mine into a vent, which spies have to climb into to disable, as soon as they climb up, KABOOMPOWAWUNGA, and you're dead and theres absolutely no way of disabling it via hand, you can only shoot it.

I don't recall anybody saying that chaff will be removed. And besides, maybe there will be a stealth way to enter vents, so that you can actually enter one, instead of jumping in, and not set off any mines. Think about it  ;)

Take your own advice and think about it.  Let's all throw mines up in the spy spawn point.  Or over the barricade wall into the spy spawn.  Or at a spy.  Or on the ceiling etc etc etc.  And don't say "bla bla bla chaff the mine bla bla".  Certain zones are supposed to be safe for a spy.  When you can throw mines they no longer are safe.

Idiot, get off my thread. Spawn points won't necessarily be in the mercs throwing reach. To throw a mine on a spy would take some pretty nice accuracy skills. Throwing a mine on a ceiling won't reach the spy. Don't tell me to think about things when the only thing you consider is "how do I respond with gayness/not making sense?".

zankew!

[Gawain]

ur right that his counter points aren't that strong, but here is a very good one for you: svm is a game that requires/should require planning and carefullness, and placing mines should always take some time and some risk when a spy is around.

[Hyrage]

ur right that his counter points aren't that strong, but here is a very good one for you: svm is a game that requires/should require planning and carefullness, and placing mines should always take some time and some risk when a spy is around.

should we take out the guns shooting too fast?  :-\

The spies should be able to blow up mines. The actual balance element in CT is:

• Aiming accurately a mine takes skills & time.


• The laser dot appears close from the mine so it already requires timing and intelligence to be able to blow up a merc with it.


• The merc can attract spies into the mines they place or cover their mines with their own body.


• I'm definately against what Goodkebab said about "mines have to be placed in <easy to see> spots", because if it was the case it would mean taking out the surpise elements of the mercs & mines would be far too easy to blow up against the mercs or being disabled.

[Farley4Fan]

Well, if the spy can't reach the mine, the mine can't reach the spy  ;) So the merc just needs to be smart where to place.

Wrong. What if a merc throws a mine into a vent, which spies have to climb into to disable, as soon as they climb up, KABOOMPOWAWUNGA, and you're dead and theres absolutely no way of disabling it via hand, you can only shoot it.

I don't recall anybody saying that chaff will be removed. And besides, maybe there will be a stealth way to enter vents, so that you can actually enter one, instead of jumping in, and not set off any mines. Think about it  ;)

Take your own advice and think about it.  Let's all throw mines up in the spy spawn point.  Or over the barricade wall into the spy spawn.  Or at a spy.  Or on the ceiling etc etc etc.  And don't say "bla bla bla chaff the mine bla bla".  Certain zones are supposed to be safe for a spy.  When you can throw mines they no longer are safe.

Idiot, get off my thread. Spawn points won't necessarily be in the mercs throwing reach. To throw a mine on a spy would take some pretty nice accuracy skills. Throwing a mine on a ceiling won't reach the spy. Don't tell me to think about things when the only thing you consider is "how do I respond with gayness/not making sense?".

zankew!

In CT maps, just go with me here, spawn points are usually open enough for a merc to at least get a frag into a spy spawn exit point.  And this isn't even my main concern with your ingenious idea. 

A lot of doorways lead into places with higher ceilings.  If a merc can throw a poison mine 5 ft into the air and stick onto the ceiling, the spy will be absolutely unable to disable that mine in any way.  Unless of course he finds a way to get around that doorway and disable it from the other side.  The spy cannot taze a poison that is blocking the doorway 5 feet up, he cannot chaff it, nothing.  AND, if the merc can't even throw the mine 5 feet then why the hell would you have it in the game?  It's useless that way, or if you can throw it 5 feet it becomes overpowered.  I'm eagerly awaiting your counter.

[InvisibleMan999]

Why would you want to upgrade mines, the gadget every merc takes?

Seriously now... lets upgrade some gadgets that people don't take, instead of making the most popular gadgets even better.

[Blank Man]

Well, if the spy can't reach the mine, the mine can't reach the spy  ;) So the merc just needs to be smart where to place.

Wrong. What if a merc throws a mine into a vent, which spies have to climb into to disable, as soon as they climb up, KABOOMPOWAWUNGA, and you're dead and theres absolutely no way of disabling it via hand, you can only shoot it.

I don't recall anybody saying that chaff will be removed. And besides, maybe there will be a stealth way to enter vents, so that you can actually enter one, instead of jumping in, and not set off any mines. Think about it  ;)

Take your own advice and think about it.  Let's all throw mines up in the spy spawn point.  Or over the barricade wall into the spy spawn.  Or at a spy.  Or on the ceiling etc etc etc.  And don't say "bla bla bla chaff the mine bla bla".  Certain zones are supposed to be safe for a spy.  When you can throw mines they no longer are safe.

Idiot, get off my thread. Spawn points won't necessarily be in the mercs throwing reach. To throw a mine on a spy would take some pretty nice accuracy skills. Throwing a mine on a ceiling won't reach the spy. Don't tell me to think about things when the only thing you consider is "how do I respond with gayness/not making sense?".

zankew!

In CT maps, just go with me here, spawn points are usually open enough for a merc to at least get a frag into a spy spawn exit point.  And this isn't even my main concern with your ingenious idea. 

A lot of doorways lead into places with higher ceilings.  If a merc can throw a poison mine 5 ft into the air and stick onto the ceiling, the spy will be absolutely unable to disable that mine in any way.  Unless of course he finds a way to get around that doorway and disable it from the other side.  The spy cannot taze a poison that is blocking the doorway 5 feet up, he cannot chaff it, nothing.  AND, if the merc can't even throw the mine 5 feet then why the hell would you have it in the game?  It's useless that way, or if you can throw it 5 feet it becomes overpowered.  I'm eagerly awaiting your counter.

Wait no more.
Incase you forgot the poll for chaff not being able to go through walls, it showed that most people don't want it to be able to. I'm saying this because you say that mines will be (in some cases) impossibly avoided. Well, the chaff not passing walls already provokes this, so why haven't you addressed that in the chaff arguement? I will give you an example of a poison that is impossible to remove/avoid in CT. In Factory, I don't recall which vent, but you drop from a height which you can't climb back up, and at the next cross section, if a mine is placed there you can't go back. The only way to survive in this case is really quickly get to a health box, or bring a mate. This idea doesn't create any new problems, you just haven't thought about it long enough.

[AgentX_003]

ur right that his counter points aren't that strong, but here is a very good one for you: svm is a game that requires/should require planning and carefullness, and placing mines should always take some time and some risk when a spy is around.

should we take out the guns shooting too fast?  :-\

The spies should be able to blow up mines. The actual balance element in CT is:

• Aiming accurately a mine takes skills & time.


• The laser dot appears close from the mine so it already requires timing and intelligence to be able to blow up a merc with it.






• The merc can attract spies into the mines they place or cover their mines with their own body.


• I'm definately against what Goodkebab said about "mines have to be placed in <easy to see> spots", because if it was the case it would mean taking out the surpise elements of the mercs & mines would be far too easy to blow up against the mercs or being disabled.

your misunderstanding kebab's point, hes saying that mines need to be visible.. not hidden in a ceiling ..

nor is he saying you can't hide , just saying that mines need to be able to remove by hand when being a spy.  ;)

[Gawain]

ur right that his counter points aren't that strong, but here is a very good one for you: svm is a game that requires/should require planning and carefullness, and placing mines should always take some time and some risk when a spy is around.

should we take out the guns shooting too fast?  :-\

??? oO

The spies should be able to blow up mines. The actual balance element in CT is:

• Aiming accurately a mine takes skills & time.

it's only hard sometimes because of the bad mouse implementation and around-the-corner mine placement. once again, you show us your console background where aiming takes significantly more time

• The laser dot appears close from the mine so it already requires timing and intelligence to be able to blow up a merc with it.

how about disabling the laser dot? anyways, most of the times you shoot at a mine it's because you play aggro and happen to see it, not because you blow the merc up with it...

• The merc can attract spies into the mines they place or cover their mines with their own body.

nobody is talking about removing these possibilities, you could still place mines in hidden spots (oh and the 2nd use is totally noobish)

• I'm definately against what Goodkebab said about "mines have to be placed in <easy to see> spots", because if it was the case it would mean taking out the surpise elements of the mercs & mines would be far too easy to blow up against the mercs or being disabled.

mines should both be placable in obvious and less obvious spots. atm mines do a pretty bad job in stopping aggro because of chaff going through walls and because of the ability to blow them up with the ss. i can't see anything bad about mines that you can easily see but not blow up with a simple ss shot, how about just not running into them? giving people the additional choice of placing mines on the floor and in open areas is a good thing for the gameplay (and throwing mines isn't).

[Cyntrox]

Wait no more.
Incase you forgot the poll for chaff not being able to go through walls, it showed that most people don't want it to be able to. I'm saying this because you say that mines will be (in some cases) impossibly avoided. Well, the chaff not passing walls already provokes this, so why haven't you addressed that in the chaff arguement? I will give you an example of a poison that is impossible to remove/avoid in CT. In Factory, I don't recall which vent, but you drop from a height which you can't climb back up, and at the next cross section, if a mine is placed there you can't go back. The only way to survive in this case is really quickly get to a health box, or bring a mate. This idea doesn't create any new problems, you just haven't thought about it long enough.

It still escalates the problem.

A lot.

[.leelu12.]

i think its really hard to kill a merc with a mine   :-\

[Gawain]

well there are tons of people out there who think the stuff you see in frag vids like snap-headshots and mine kills are common in every game XD

[Farley4Fan]

Well, if the spy can't reach the mine, the mine can't reach the spy  ;) So the merc just needs to be smart where to place.

Wrong. What if a merc throws a mine into a vent, which spies have to climb into to disable, as soon as they climb up, KABOOMPOWAWUNGA, and you're dead and theres absolutely no way of disabling it via hand, you can only shoot it.

I don't recall anybody saying that chaff will be removed. And besides, maybe there will be a stealth way to enter vents, so that you can actually enter one, instead of jumping in, and not set off any mines. Think about it  ;)

Take your own advice and think about it.  Let's all throw mines up in the spy spawn point.  Or over the barricade wall into the spy spawn.  Or at a spy.  Or on the ceiling etc etc etc.  And don't say "bla bla bla chaff the mine bla bla".  Certain zones are supposed to be safe for a spy.  When you can throw mines they no longer are safe.

Idiot, get off my thread. Spawn points won't necessarily be in the mercs throwing reach. To throw a mine on a spy would take some pretty nice accuracy skills. Throwing a mine on a ceiling won't reach the spy. Don't tell me to think about things when the only thing you consider is "how do I respond with gayness/not making sense?".

zankew!

In CT maps, just go with me here, spawn points are usually open enough for a merc to at least get a frag into a spy spawn exit point.  And this isn't even my main concern with your ingenious idea. 

A lot of doorways lead into places with higher ceilings.  If a merc can throw a poison mine 5 ft into the air and stick onto the ceiling, the spy will be absolutely unable to disable that mine in any way.  Unless of course he finds a way to get around that doorway and disable it from the other side.  The spy cannot taze a poison that is blocking the doorway 5 feet up, he cannot chaff it, nothing.  AND, if the merc can't even throw the mine 5 feet then why the hell would you have it in the game?  It's useless that way, or if you can throw it 5 feet it becomes overpowered.  I'm eagerly awaiting your counter.

Wait no more.
Incase you forgot the poll for chaff not being able to go through walls, it showed that most people don't want it to be able to. I'm saying this because you say that mines will be (in some cases) impossibly avoided. Well, the chaff not passing walls already provokes this, so why haven't you addressed that in the chaff arguement? I will give you an example of a poison that is impossible to remove/avoid in CT. In Factory, I don't recall which vent, but you drop from a height which you can't climb back up, and at the next cross section, if a mine is placed there you can't go back. The only way to survive in this case is really quickly get to a health box, or bring a mate. This idea doesn't create any new problems, you just haven't thought about it long enough.

There were very few places where that could happen in CT.  With your little mine throwing idea mercs will be able to completely block off many many doorways in the game.  And if you hadn't noticed, doorways are important chokepoints.  That's a problem.  I don't think you have thought it over long enough.  Believe me I've had my share of pointless arguments and I'd argue just for the sake of arguing.  You seem oddly familiar, like me when I joined the forum.  :D  Rambo and Vega would know.

[InvisibleMan999]

well there are tons of people out there who think the stuff you see in frag vids like snap-headshots and mine kills are common in every game XD

Well snap headshots are actually common to some players, but not really to every game. But if you get someone who uses that tactic, chances are they're going to use it on you alot.

[Farley4Fan]

Please, let's not get into this snap headshot discussion again.  It happens way too often and no one ever wins.