So Begins the Castration of the great US of A

[Farley4Fan]

The problem is sadam killed thousand on the other hand your invasion killed one and a half million and ruined the country. I don't find it better than sadamS rule. Your 'coming to iraq' made a lot more problems that Saddams whole reign did.

You aren't quite understanding.  I do not argue that there were some harsh means, but what I want to see happen is the ends to exceed that.  I want the ends to justify the means.  The people against the war won't even let it get its ending, possibly a better ending than we could hope for, and then would bash the president for a disaster when the real disaster would be invading a country for nothing.  What I'm saying is that this has to be for something.  We can't allow the thousands of lives on our side and the countless innocent lives lost be for absolutely nothing, and that's what people amazingly want.  They are under the impression that it's all for nothing, so they won't give it a chance.  Even when that flag is waving "HEY!  Hello?  We are winning now!  Iraq is basically free, we can leave quite soon, and it's almost a democracy!  Hello?"  But our ignorant castrated side goes Peewww!!  and turns their backs.

We got our military in this mess, and we must let them do their job.  Let them do their job so we can withdraw them with some decency.  In my book you can only get decency for having the courage to see the damn job through.  For having the brass to make sure that your buddy didn't die for nothing.  We must leave Iraq better than how it was.  It's now our responsibility and people would rather cut and run than face what we are already in.

About torture. I never said its bad . I said that the court must allow it . Make a procedure which you need to pass before you can torture someone. But torturing someone out of the blue is bull.

Respectable position.  The torture I was talking about was the torture that Saddam inflicted.  To everyday civilians, to his own troops, he tortured them if they looked at him with a cockeye, so yes as you put it "out of the blue".  That's not allowed by the court.  This was a complete and total dictatorship.  Can you at least admit that the world's better off without him?  Do we at least agree on that?

If you take your analogy about popping shoulders for iraq . Who was that popped their shoulder incorrectly in the first time ? Saddam was your friend and was put in power by Usa during the cold war.... Now you are causing even more pain to the country by just popping it out and in again by removing Saddam ? Do you really think that people are that helpless ? Saddam would die eventually and i doubt another Saddam would come.

Of course I know that.  We didn't quite know at the time he was so bad or that he would turn into what he did - so don't completely fault the U.S. for that.  But let's continue that shoulder analogy.  We attempted to pop the shoulder back in with Saddam, but didn't quite pop it in right, still a little loose - then eventually fell out of socket.  We must try and pop it in once and for all.  We can't just leave the shoulder out of socket.  YES, the people are that helpless.  The people are helpless under a dictator, you should know this.  You doubt another Saddam would come?  Really?  So, let's wait 25 years until the sucker dies (all the while torturing/killing/smushing his people under his authority), then cross our fingers that another one doesn't show up?  There are times when you can't afford to be patient and must act. 

Could we have waited?  Maybe.  Should we have planned better?  Absolutely.  But this is all moot right now.  We cannot learn from our mistakes yet.  We cannot apply what we've learned to the current situation.  What have learned?  Plan better, get better intelligence, do not underestimate, etc.  Now then, can we apply any of those things to the current situation that we are in?  The cold hard answer to that, snakebit, is NO.

We are in a different situation.  We are attempting to install a democracy in the middle east, something that has not been done before, but is looking very possible at the moment.  As I put it before, that light at the end of the tunnel back in late 2003, is now a big shining beacon.  It's so obvious we're just about done.  We're keeping the peace (which is something you were all mad about), we are taking out terrorists (what's wrong with this?), we're making giant strides towards making a democracy in Iraq (not quite yet, but we're getting there), AND we are aware that it's almost time for us to leave.

I am saying that 1.5 million people wouldn't have died if you haven't invaded in the first place. Yes sadam killed a hundred thousand people once but its not like he does it every week or so . He did it once.....
You killed a lot more than him and i fail to see how is that making the country better ?
During saddam there  were stable institutions of power and government . Out of fear perhaps. But it worked .
Now , can you say there are stable intitutions ? No , you can't.

Um, duh?  And oh, he just did it once, therefore it's somewhat justified.  Come on.  THE GUY WAS EVIL.  The guy is gone be happy.  And do not just say "You killed a lot more than him".  That's ridiculous.  Most of it was done by terrorists.  We're taking them out so this can't happen.  And guess what?  It's really not happening anymore.  The military exceeded all expectations at lowering terrorist activity, did they not? 

And you are still not understanding something.  We didn't kill people so that it would be better.  We unfortunately did kill people in the process of making it better.  It was an unwanted side effect that happens in EVERY SINGLE WAR.  What we are doing now is making sure that those 1.4 million civilians or whatever were not killed in vain or for no reason at all.  A better living standard and a better country w/ more liberties and freedom NEEDS to come out of this.  People are standing in our military's way of making this happen.

I say that war isn't decided by industrial capacity alone. If it is decided by only industrial capacity . Do you think that if China invaded America right now , China would win ? It has more people and more 'production' Capacity . The industrial sector of china is larger and stronger than the american one right now.

1st time i hear the Syria thing. Come on , do you think your 'great cia , nsa or whatever' wouldn't notice Saddam moving 1000 tons of weapons of mass destruction to Syria . It takes a lot of time to do so and all eyes were on Iraq so i doubt he could have pulled it off.

You aren't entirely understanding what I'm writing to you sometimes.  This WW2 thing got us way off of what we are talking about.  For what it's worth though, I do not think China could successfully invade the U.S. 

About Syria, it's possible.  There is evidence pointing towards it.  And who said Saddam had 1000 tons of WMD's?  Just said he had them.  It's not like the truck wheeling them into Syria has a big red "WMD'S" sign on top of it.  Maybe they slipped by.  Maybe they didn't exist.  Who knows?  But who cares?  We have a new mission.  We'll learn from mistakes when we can apply them.

[frvge]

I want the ends to justify the means.

That's the opposite of the fundamental basis of the Western legal system.

With your reasoning, let's kill all newborn babies of groups that have percentually the most criminals.
The end (probably less criminals) justify the means, so it's ok.

Of course I'm exaggerating, but I want to show that it's really dangerous to switch between the two trains-of-thought.

Compare:
Anything I do to get to my goal is acceptable, as long as my goal is acceptable. (reasoning from the goal)
Anything is acceptable, as long as the means of getting there are acceptable. (reasoning from the actions).

For instance, Hitler's rise to power was acceptable. It was democratic.

[Snakebit.]

I want the ends to justify the means.

That's the opposite of the fundamental basis of the Western legal system.

With your reasoning, let's kill all newborn babies of groups that have percentually the most criminals.
The end (probably less criminals) justify the means, so it's ok.

Of course I'm exaggerating, but I want to show that it's really dangerous to switch between the two trains-of-thought.

Compare:
Anything I do to get to my goal is acceptable, as long as my goal is acceptable. (reasoning from the goal)
Anything is acceptable, as long as the means of getting there are acceptable. (reasoning from the actions).

For instance, Hitler's rise to power was acceptable. It was democratic.

Good post. Thats what i was trying to show papa but he seemed to ignore it all the time.


Simple. You put a democracy but you sacrifice the lives of 1 500 000 people in the process. Not even mentioning that saddam didn't do anything BAD . Yes he didn't . You had him pay for his murders by Desert Storm 1 . Desert storm 2 or whatever was it called was just what ? A war without a reason ?

Little example. If you capture a criminal , it doesn't matter for what crime , do you always kill the criminal ? It is more effective at decreasing crime levels than just tell him to sit in a jail + let him out in 1-30 years not to mention the money you spend on keeping him in there and things like that. But do we kill all criminals , heck we don't even kill 2% of them because death penalty is against our moral standarts in most countries ........

[Farley4Fan]

I want the ends to justify the means.

That's the opposite of the fundamental basis of the Western legal system.

With your reasoning, let's kill all newborn babies of groups that have percentually the most criminals.
The end (probably less criminals) justify the means, so it's ok.

Of course I'm exaggerating, but I want to show that it's really dangerous to switch between the two trains-of-thought.

Compare:
Anything I do to get to my goal is acceptable, as long as my goal is acceptable. (reasoning from the goal)
Anything is acceptable, as long as the means of getting there are acceptable. (reasoning from the actions).

For instance, Hitler's rise to power was acceptable. It was democratic.

I'm not switching trains of thought for anything.  Don't you get it?  Those people DID get killed, we weren't sure that there would be that many, and so now we HAVE to do something to try and make it better for future Iraqi's.  We didn't sit there and know that over a million innocents would die throughout the course of the war, so we obviously weren't weighing the lives lost to a democracy.  How is it possible that before we started the war, we said "1.4 million will die, is a democracy worth it?"  Wtf our advisors didn't even think we'd be there for a year.  DUH.

  We knew there would be some casualties, there are in every war, but to be perfectly honest with you democracy is a democracy.  Freedom is freedom.  Hundreds of millions died throughout the course of history so that we could have our freedoms.  Do you think the ones who came up with the idea of civil liberties and democracy sat at a round table and went "Okay, there will be millions, maybe even close to a billion people that will die so that democracy can be a possible form of government.  Is it worth it?  ZOMG I DON'T KNOW!!!1"  It's so obvious, and so true, that freedom isn't free. 

This is what I'm saying.  We went in, kicked ass, we took out a P.O.S. dictator, and unfortunately a lot of people died and the country turned into chaos.  We said, "well shit, we have to do something for these people now."  So here we are.  Trying to attempt to right some of our wrongs and just trying to give better lives to people who have been living under the thumb of an a-hole.  NOPE!  NO!  You say!  We went into Iraq with selfish intentions LOLOMGZ! WE CAN'T STAY AND MAKE IT A DEMOCRACY OR EVEN TRY BECAUSE WE HAVE SUCH LOW EXPECTATIONS OF OURSELVES! WE SUCK!  WE'RE SORRY WORLD!  EUROPE ESPECIALLY!  Why can't you just love us again France!?  WHY?  PLEASE!! We'll make you another Eiffel tower!  Just please!  Say you support America's intentions one more time, my love! 

See, if you are ridiculous, then I can equal that ridiculousness or, on a rare occasion, surpass it.  Frvge, you cannot realize how ridiculous America has been towards the war.  Yes, we made mistakes, people died (like we're all surprised), and more.  We cannot say that we support the spread of democracy and freedom, then when we try to do just that we go strictly against it because of a few frayed edges!  We've gotten so high on ourselves, that we start to just sink everytime something goes a little bit wrong.  It's like if you had a straight A student, then the student got one or two C's, and you kick em out the door.  Then the student comes back and says that he turned those C's into A+'s and you say that you frankly don't give a shit because of those "Horrible C's that will haunt us forever!"  Get real man.  Frvge, Snakebit, all who heavily oppose the Iraq war, you are being overexpecting parents that are stubborn and unopen to anything that would heal the wounds and promise future prosperity, all because of a few frayed edges and bumps along the road.

Good post. Thats what i was trying to show papa but he seemed to ignore it all the time.

You're freaking kidding me.  Ignore?  If anything you ignored my responses towards it.

Simple. You put a democracy but you sacrifice the lives of 1 500 000 people in the process. Not even mentioning that saddam didn't do anything BAD . Yes he didn't . You had him pay for his murders by Desert Storm 1 . Desert storm 2 or whatever was it called was just what ? A war without a reason ?

No no no.  You are not looking at the situation correctly.  We went in with a democracy in mind, greatly underestimated it, people died, and now we still are trying to see it through.  SET BACKS!  Duh.  It's a freaking war don't act like an idiot and go "well well umm people are dying waaahhh!!!"  PEOPLE DIE IN WAR.  People in today's world are so god damned spoiled that when they see hardship they go into the fetal position and suck thumbs.  It's like the 60's.  For God's sake dude if this is really all about the loss of lives then look at the facts.  In the last few months, more people have died in just the 3 cities of Miami, Detroit, and Philadelphia than in the ENTIRE COUNTRY OF IRAQ.  I thought there was a war going on in Iraq, right?!  3 supposedly civilized cities, or a "war tarnished" country?  Any average Joe would pick the warzone of a country, right?  You should be supporting the war because of the wonders we are working by preventing innocent deaths!  Maybe we should apply these tactics all 'round the globe, right?  Where's your support man?

And Snakebit you must realize you are heavily contradicting yourself buddy.  You think we can make Saddam pay for killing people by having a war, yet you think we can't justify the killings of people with the installation of a friggin democracy.  That's just damned stupid to be frank.  We can make up for Saddam's killings by war, yet we can't make up for our own killings by going through a hellish war and giving them freedom?  What the hell does it take?  A sorry note to the PM?  Jesus. 

I don't want to do it, but, *facepalm.

Little example. If you capture a criminal , it doesn't matter for what crime , do you always kill the criminal ? It is more effective at decreasing crime levels than just tell him to sit in a jail + let him out in 1-30 years not to mention the money you spend on keeping him in there and things like that. But do we kill all criminals , heck we don't even kill 2% of them because death penalty is against our moral standarts in most countries ........

Really does not pertain to what we are talking about. 

[Snakebit.]

I want the ends to justify the means.

That's the opposite of the fundamental basis of the Western legal system.

With your reasoning, let's kill all newborn babies of groups that have percentually the most criminals.
The end (probably less criminals) justify the means, so it's ok.

Of course I'm exaggerating, but I want to show that it's really dangerous to switch between the two trains-of-thought.

Compare:
Anything I do to get to my goal is acceptable, as long as my goal is acceptable. (reasoning from the goal)
Anything is acceptable, as long as the means of getting there are acceptable. (reasoning from the actions).

For instance, Hitler's rise to power was acceptable. It was democratic.

I'm not switching trains of thought for anything.  Don't you get it?  Those people DID get killed, we weren't sure that there would be that many, and so now we HAVE to do something to try and make it better for future Iraqi's.  We didn't sit there and know that over a million innocents would die throughout the course of the war, so we obviously weren't weighing the lives lost to a democracy.  How is it possible that before we started the war, we said "1.4 million will die, is a democracy worth it?"  Wtf our advisors didn't even think we'd be there for a year.  DUH.

  We knew there would be some casualties, there are in every war, but to be perfectly honest with you democracy is a democracy.  Freedom is freedom.  Hundreds of millions died throughout the course of history so that we could have our freedoms.  Do you think the ones who came up with the idea of civil liberties and democracy sat at a round table and went "Okay, there will be millions, maybe even close to a billion people that will die so that democracy can be a possible form of government.  Is it worth it?  ZOMG I DON'T KNOW!!!1"  It's so obvious, and so true, that freedom isn't free. 

This is what I'm saying.  We went in, kicked ass, we took out a P.O.S. dictator, and unfortunately a lot of people died and the country turned into chaos.  We said, "well shit, we have to do something for these people now."  So here we are.  Trying to attempt to right some of our wrongs and just trying to give better lives to people who have been living under the thumb of an a-hole.  NOPE!  NO!  You say!  We went into Iraq with selfish intentions LOLOMGZ! WE CAN'T STAY AND MAKE IT A DEMOCRACY OR EVEN TRY BECAUSE WE HAVE SUCH LOW EXPECTATIONS OF OURSELVES! WE SUCK!  WE'RE SORRY WORLD!  EUROPE ESPECIALLY!  Why can't you just love us again France!?  WHY?  PLEASE!! We'll make you another Eiffel tower!  Just please!  Say you support America's intentions one more time, my love! 

See, if you are ridiculous, then I can equal that ridiculousness or, on a rare occasion, surpass it.  Frvge, you cannot realize how ridiculous America has been towards the war.  Yes, we made mistakes, people died (like we're all surprised), and more.  We cannot say that we support the spread of democracy and freedom, then when we try to do just that we go strictly against it because of a few frayed edges!  We've gotten so high on ourselves, that we start to just sink everytime something goes a little bit wrong.  It's like if you had a straight A student, then the student got one or two C's, and you kick em out the door.  Then the student comes back and says that he turned those C's into A+'s and you say that you frankly don't give a shit because of those "Horrible C's that will haunt us forever!"  Get real man.  Frvge, Snakebit, all who heavily oppose the Iraq war, you are being overexpecting parents that are stubborn and unopen to anything that would heal the wounds and promise future prosperity, all because of a few frayed edges and bumps along the road.

Good post. Thats what i was trying to show papa but he seemed to ignore it all the time.

You're freaking kidding me.  Ignore?  If anything you ignored my responses towards it.

Simple. You put a democracy but you sacrifice the lives of 1 500 000 people in the process. Not even mentioning that saddam didn't do anything BAD . Yes he didn't . You had him pay for his murders by Desert Storm 1 . Desert storm 2 or whatever was it called was just what ? A war without a reason ?

No no no.  You are not looking at the situation correctly.  We went in with a democracy in mind, greatly underestimated it, people died, and now we still are trying to see it through.  SET BACKS!  Duh.  It's a freaking war don't act like an idiot and go "well well umm people are dying waaahhh!!!"  PEOPLE DIE IN WAR.  People in today's world are so god damned spoiled that when they see hardship they go into the fetal position and suck thumbs.  It's like the 60's.  For God's sake dude if this is really all about the loss of lives then look at the facts.  In the last few months, more people have died in just the 3 cities of Miami, Detroit, and Philadelphia than in the ENTIRE COUNTRY OF IRAQ.  I thought there was a war going on in Iraq, right?!  3 supposedly civilized cities, or a "war tarnished" country?  Any average Joe would pick the warzone of a country, right?  You should be supporting the war because of the wonders we are working by preventing innocent deaths!  Maybe we should apply these tactics all 'round the globe, right?  Where's your support man?

And Snakebit you must realize you are heavily contradicting yourself buddy.  You think we can make Saddam pay for killing people by having a war, yet you think we can't justify the killings of people with the installation of a friggin democracy.  That's just damned stupid to be frank.  We can make up for Saddam's killings by war, yet we can't make up for our own killings by going through a hellish war and giving them freedom?  What the hell does it take?  A sorry note to the PM?  Jesus. 

I don't want to do it, but, *facepalm.

Little example. If you capture a criminal , it doesn't matter for what crime , do you always kill the criminal ? It is more effective at decreasing crime levels than just tell him to sit in a jail + let him out in 1-30 years not to mention the money you spend on keeping him in there and things like that. But do we kill all criminals , heck we don't even kill 2% of them because death penalty is against our moral standarts in most countries ........

Really does not pertain to what we are talking about. 

Did you smoke something while you were writing this ?

Papa said. 'Those people DID get killed, we weren't sure that there would be that many' Thats the whole point. Think about what could happen , its your god damn job if you are gonna do something do it right , don't do it completely wrong. You are payed to do your job and if you fail at doing it than you should get fired. But i didn't see anyone paying for miss managment of iraq and things like that.   But i guess iraqies are happy with that , NOT.


Also said by PaPa. 'This is what I'm saying.  We went in, kicked ass, we took out a P.O.S. dictator, and unfortunately a lot of people died and the country turned into chaos' Really unfortunate. Or not ? You also said : 'PEOPLE DIE IN WAR.' so i doubt you didn't think people will die so how can it be unfortunate ?


Papa said :Do you think the ones who came up with the idea of civil liberties and democracy sat at a round table and went "Okay, there will be millions, maybe even close to a billion people that will die so that democracy can be a possible form of government.  Is it worth it? 

Those people who made those ideas , thought that their ideas would be reached via a peaceful way or the development of civil society NOT BY SWITCHING A GOVERNMENT.


Again quoting papa : 'It's like if you had a straight A student, then the student got one or two C's, and you kick em out the door.  Then the student comes back and says that he turned those C's into A+'s and you say that you frankly don't give a shit because of those "Horrible C's that will haunt us forever!"  Get real man.  Frvge, Snakebit, all who heavily oppose the Iraq war, you are being overexpecting parents that are stubborn and unopen to anything that would heal the wounds and promise future prosperity, all because of a few frayed edges and bumps along the road.'

Get of your high horse . America wasn't an A student not even close ?. I'd give america a big fat F or E for what they did in the last 12 years . Economy problems right now are your doing , iraq ruined is your doing , super duper budget deficit your doing ? And its not just the presidents fault but Americas as a whole.


Again said by papa : 'It's a freaking war don't act like an idiot and go "well well umm people are dying waaahhh!!!"  PEOPLE DIE IN WAR.'

Yes they do but 1.5 million is overboard ?It was your job to keep the country peaceful after the war ended but you failed to do so. Your saying that in each war that many people die . Lets count a bit . Population of iraq 30 million , 1.5 million died . Hense 1.5/30 * 100% = 5% of population died.

How would you feel if someone invaded america and ( americas population is around 300 000 000 million people and someone would kill 5% percent of them ? ) 15 000 000 million would die ? Do you even understand how big of a number is 5% percent of population ?

[Westfall]

last statement is blasphemous. You've clearly only been to Didnty, and not the surrounding parks.

[Snakebit.]

last statement is blasphemous. You've clearly only been to Didnty, and not the surrounding parks.

Sorry , but what does Didnty mean ?

[Farley4Fan]

Did you smoke something while you were writing this ?

Oh the irony.

Papa said. 'Those people DID get killed, we weren't sure that there would be that many' Thats the whole point. Think about what could happen , its your god damn job if you are gonna do something do it right , don't do it completely wrong. You are payed to do your job and if you fail at doing it than you should get fired. But i didn't see anyone paying for miss managment of iraq and things like that.   But i guess iraqies are happy with that , NOT.

Stfu, now.  You look like an IDIOT.  You're still pathetically trying to make it seem like the U.S. military killed most of those people.  PATHETIC.  Snakebit, is democracy not worth a shit to you?  Apparently there's some counter out there that gauges when freedom isn't worth it.

Also said by PaPa. 'This is what I'm saying.  We went in, kicked ass, we took out a P.O.S. dictator, and unfortunately a lot of people died and the country turned into chaos' Really unfortunate. Or not ? You also said : 'PEOPLE DIE IN WAR.' so i doubt you didn't think people will die so how can it be unfortunate ?

Wtf?  One of the dumbest statements I've ever heard.   :D  Even if you expect some casualties it's still a sad thing.  Ummm, not quite sure what to say to this other than remark about how stupid it is.  All you can do is keep chugging on and finish the mission.  A better life for future Iraqi's should be worth more to you than it seems like. 

Papa said :Do you think the ones who came up with the idea of civil liberties and democracy sat at a round table and went "Okay, there will be millions, maybe even close to a billion people that will die so that democracy can be a possible form of government.  Is it worth it? 

Those people who made those ideas , thought that their ideas would be reached via a peaceful way or the development of civil society NOT BY SWITCHING A GOVERNMENT.

Lol, so they underestimated the deaths as well then?  They underestimated the things they'd have to endure to succeed their mission?  MY POINT EXACTLY!  But, they kept going, because they knew freedom is important.  Let's follow their lead.  Good try, come again soon.

Again quoting papa : 'It's like if you had a straight A student, then the student got one or two C's, and you kick em out the door.  Then the student comes back and says that he turned those C's into A+'s and you say that you frankly don't give a shit because of those "Horrible C's that will haunt us forever!"  Get real man.  Frvge, Snakebit, all who heavily oppose the Iraq war, you are being overexpecting parents that are stubborn and unopen to anything that would heal the wounds and promise future prosperity, all because of a few frayed edges and bumps along the road.'

Get of your high horse . America wasn't an A student not even close ?. I'd give america a big fat F or E for what they did in the last 12 years . Economy problems right now are your doing , iraq ruined is your doing , super duper budget deficit your doing ? And its not just the presidents fault but Americas as a whole.

There's your couple C's.  MY POINT EXACTLY!  Good try, come again.  "Economy problems right now are your doing" - what the fuck is your point?  "iraq ruined is your doing" - wtf is your point?  That's why WE HAVE TO REBUILD IT!  DERR ANYONE THERE!?!?  Let's just go with your side and say that WE ruined Iraq.  Okay.  Now who's going to fix it?  Iraqi's?  No no no, we need to fix it at the very minimum, and install a democracy at best.  Everyone's got problems.  You'd rather play the friggin damn blame game then try to fix the EFFIN PROBLEM.  You're like a child, snakebit!  HE STARTED IT!  IT WAS HIS FAULT!  BLA BLA BLA!  I'm the guy telling you to calm down and focus on the problem at hand, you'd rather blame and blame and blame.

Again said by papa : 'It's a freaking war don't act like an idiot and go "well well umm people are dying waaahhh!!!"  PEOPLE DIE IN WAR.'

Yes they do but 1.5 million is overboard ?It was your job to keep the country peaceful after the war ended but you failed to do so. Your saying that in each war that many people die . Lets count a bit . Population of iraq 30 million , 1.5 million died . Hense 1.5/30 * 100% = 5% of population died.

"Yes they do but" - lol "1.5 million is overboard" - I agree.  How will we make up for it?  By doing what you suggest and just up and leave?  Hmm, oh yeah, that will solve that problem!  It was our job to keep the country peaceful?  WTF DID I JUST SAY TO YOU SNAKEBIT!  The country is safer than just a handful of some of our more violent cities - is that peaceful enough for you?  Terrorists are leaving, terrorists are dying, Iraq's army is becoming more successful at anti-terrorist operations, there is less violence in the country EVERY SINGLE FREAKING DAY, yet you say we "failed" to keep the peace or are "failing" to keep the peace?  You, snakebit, are as blind as a damned bat.

How would you feel if someone invaded america and ( americas population is around 300 000 000 million people and someone would kill 5% percent of them ? ) 15 000 000 million would die ? Do you even understand how big of a number is 5% percent of population ?

I would feel even worse if they effed my country and just left it for dead - on top of the deaths.  You would as well.  Don't deny that.  I'm sure you'd want them to stick around and maybe fix some of their F ups.  Oh, but the Iraqi's?  No, they'd rather just have us turn things into chaos (as if that was our mission), and leave -according to you.

[Snakebit.]

Papa my last post to you. I was stupid to even start arguing with you.

Said by papa. Stfu, now.  You look like an IDIOT.  You're still pathetically trying to make it seem like the U.S. military killed most of those people.  PATHETIC.  Snakebit, is democracy not worth a shit to you?  Apparently there's some counter out there that gauges when freedom isn't worth it.

And who killed those people ? 'The terrorists' ? Oh come on , they weren't there before the invasion , they are the result of the invasion , you can't just say ' WE DIDN'T KILL THEM BECAUSE THE TERRORISTS DID'.
Come on its the same as saying ' I didn't kill him , i only hired the killer ' . And yes democracy is worth shit , if it isn't functioning properly and a lot of lives are sacrificed for it.

Said by papaskull . Wtf?  One of the dumbest statements I've ever heard.   Cheesy  Even if you expect some casualties it's still a  sad thing.  Ummm, not quite sure what to say to this other than remark about how stupid it is.  All you can do is keep chugging on and finish the mission.  A better life for future Iraqi's should be worth more to you than it seems like.

I don't like to go into lingvistics because its a stupid argument but this time ill make an exeption.
Un + fortunate . Fortune = luck    UN = negative meaning . Unlucky , how could you say they are unlucky deaths if you said that there are going to be deaths in the first place . Its wasn't by chance , that is why it can't be unlucky .


Said by papa skull . Lol, so they underestimated the deaths as well then?  They underestimated the things they'd have to endure to succeed their mission?  MY POINT EXACTLY!  But, they kept going, because they knew freedom is important.  Let's follow their lead.  Good try, come again soon.

AT doing things there are usually moderate people and radicals . Well with democracy radicals seems to have triumphed .


Said by papa . There's your couple C's.  MY POINT EXACTLY!  Good try, come again.  "Economy problems right now are your doing" - what the fuck is your point?  "iraq ruined is your doing" - wtf is your point?  That's why WE HAVE TO REBUILD IT!  DERR ANYONE THERE!?!?  Let's just go with your side and say that WE ruined Iraq.  Okay.  Now who's going to fix it?  Iraqi's?  No no no, we need to fix it at the very minimum, and install a democracy at best.  Everyone's got problems.  You'd rather play the friggin damn blame game then try to fix the EFFIN PROBLEM.  You're like a child, snakebit!  HE STARTED IT!  IT WAS HIS FAULT!  BLA BLA BLA!  I'm the guy telling you to calm down and focus on the problem at hand, you'd rather blame and blame and blame.


So basicly when the nazis killed a lot of the jews , you would let them go if they payed some money in return and helped rebuild poland and other countries they ruined ? I guess the nazis would have been glad to hear that 60 years ago but they are dead for some reason and a lot of them got hanged ....... I wonder why. No i am not calling Americans nazis , but i am giving an analogy why should things like this be punished . DO you see someone exterminating people massively ( means several millions ) in consentration camps nowadays ? NO YOU DON'T. But i do see some countries invading others and ruining them.


Said by papa skull . "Yes they do but" - lol "1.5 million is overboard" - I agree.  How will we make up for it?  By doing what you suggest and just up and leave?  Hmm, oh yeah, that will solve that problem!  It was our job to keep the country peaceful?  WTF DID I JUST SAY TO YOU SNAKEBIT!  The country is safer than just a handful of some of our more violent cities - is that peaceful enough for you?  Terrorists are leaving, terrorists are dying, Iraq's army is becoming more successful at anti-terrorist operations, there is less violence in the country EVERY SINGLE FREAKING DAY, yet you say we "failed" to keep the peace or are "failing" to keep the peace?  You, snakebit, are as blind as a damned bat.


Yes you failed to keep peace and you are failing to do so . THere are still terrorists out there or anti-governmental forces ? If there are then you are still failing to keep the peace.


Said by papa: I would feel even worse if they effed my country and just left it for dead - on top of the deaths.  You would as well.  Don't deny that.  I'm sure you'd want them to stick around and maybe fix some of their F ups.  Oh, but the Iraqi's?  No, they'd rather just have us turn things into chaos (as if that was our mission), and leave -according to you.

I agree that fixing is a good but do agree that ruining something that fixing it is not a proper way to do thing ?


P.s. Arguing with you is useless . Oh and please stop using insulting words and trying to make your argument sound ' strong ' . Also please don't use 'BLA BLA BLA' all the time , its annoying .


Little copy paste . A report by a political think tank based in Mumbai, India has calculated the peace dividend for the Middle East and consequently the economic cost of conflict in the region by country. According to the report, the opportunity cost of conflict for the region from 1991-2010 has been a whopping $12 trillion (12,000,000,000).Iraq has suffered the largest loss. Its GDP could have been more than 30 times its present size. If we measure Iraq's oopportunity loss since 1980, before the Iran Iraq war and the Persian Gulf War with Kuwait, the losses are even greater - Iraq's GDP could have been more than 50 times its projected GDP in 2010. In other words, had there been peace in Iraq, every Iraqi citizen would be earning over $9,600 instead of the $2,300 in 2010 .

A little graph .

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44549000/gif/_44549620_us_troop_death466x277.gif


Insurgency is like economy in a way . It has its peak points then it goes down then goes up again. DO you really think with oil prices at 45$ and not 150 like they were a year ago , the reconstruction will contrinue that well and insurgency will go down ? Iraq gets 66.8/114 (around 59%) of its GDP from oil export. So do some math. Perhaps its the reason you are pulling out ? Cause you know the situation will go to shit rather soon ? How can the insurgency rate go down during the times of economical crysis tell me ? It can only get worse...... Specially for iraq which was dependent on the oil prices which hit 10 year low ....... No money = no reconstructiong = less money in circulation = more unrest = more insurgency . Unemployment rate in iraq is around 20-30% with the crysis it will increase to 30-35 % if not 40 % and what do you think those unemployed and angry people will do ?

Iraqi Gdp growth.

Year   GDP - real growth rate (%)
2000   13
2001   15
2002   -5.7
2003   -3
2004   -21.8 <---- (Remember the sabotage of production of oil in iraq ? well this is the year when it happened and look how it affected the gdp growth ? )
2005   52.3
2006   -3
2007   2.4
2008   5

Before 2002 the growth was 13-15 percent every year. After 9/11 new sanctions and look at the growth.
AFter invasion gdp -22% . Then +52.3 , the open reserves helped with that but does the oil money go to people ? NO IT DOESN'T it goes to the companies who own the fields. Only a part of it goes to the government. During saddam economy wasn't so dependant on oil because he couldn't sell it , the damn sanctions didn't allow him so he had to increase production capacities.... But after the invasion all production almost was destroyed so now the country is VERY DEPENDENT on oil.

This doesn't help too . Another copy paste : Exports have also fallen to about 1.7 million barrels per day from a peak of 2 million in mid 2008 as a result of run-down infrastructure.


Year 2009 expects a 35-38% drop in gdp .


Iraq's gdp in billions of dollars. (this is not nominal gdp, i didn't find nominal gdp graph.)


2002   59
2003   58
2004   37.92
2005   54.4
2006   94.1
2007   87.9
2008   100

35-38% drop means that there was almost 0%(perhaps 1% or 2% which is very low for a underdeveloped country like iraq) growth rate between 2002-2009.

That shows that the government of iraq IS NOT FUNCTIONING  EFFECTIVELY.

As of today the iraqi budget has already been cut 2 times from i think 80 billion to around 60 or something around it...


And last do you know that iraq is in HUGE and i mean LITERALY HUGE DEBT. Info from 2004 study , it should be larger in 2008.

Iraq's public debt was estimated to be US$120.2 billion in nominal value as of the
end of 2004. The debt owed to Paris Club creditors as of December 31, 2004, was
estimated to be US$38.9 billion. The U.S. share of this amount is around $4 billion.
Non-Paris Club countries, mostly Persian Gulf countries, are owed around $60-$65
billion. The remaining debts are to private commercial creditors. Iraqi debt relief (both
Paris Club and non-Paris Club) is a high priority for both the President and Congress.
This report will discuss efforts to implement Iraqi debt relief, as well as efforts to
persuade non-Paris Club countries to forgive their Iraqi debts. It will also highlight
several policy concerns. This report will be updated as events warrant.

Comes from this : http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS21765.pdf
120 billion of debt . America forgave like 4.1 billion which iraq owned america in Paris club so it was like 116 billion in 2004. Now count a bit. Iraqi budget is 60 billion right now so what they gonna with that colossal debt ? And that is just PUBLIC SECTOR DEBT , who knows how much is private sector debt.

[Westfall]

At Snakebit... Was trying to write Disney for GUI.LOL

At papa: quit preaching and go over to Iraq or Afghanistan and fight. Watch how fast you fuckin buckle.

[Farley4Fan]

Snakebit, I will respond to your nonsense later.  I'll give a little piece of advice now though.  This is what you DO NOT seem to understand.  A democracy cannot be installed overnight and this was the greatest underestimation of the entire Bush admin, don't make the same idiotic mistake.  It takes time, lives are lost along the way, and it ain't easy.  So, my advice to you?  Stfu, be patient, and watch the now PEACEFUL Iraq turn into a full fledged democracy in 10 years with us gone in just a few. 

Westfall, I'll be in company of respectable men in the military as you'll strangely never find any atheists in the foxholes.  Just a funny observation.  You have to have some serious brass to look death and the face and say there is no God. 

[Snakebit.]

Snakebit, I will respond to your nonsense later.  I'll give a little piece of advice now though.  This is what you DO NOT seem to understand.  A democracy cannot be installed overnight and this was the greatest underestimation of the entire Bush admin, don't make the same idiotic mistake.  It takes time, lives are lost along the way, and it ain't easy.  So, my advice to you?  Stfu, be patient, and watch the now PEACEFUL Iraq turn into a full fledged democracy in 10 years with us gone in just a few. 

Westfall, I'll be in company of respectable men in the military as you'll strangely never find any atheists in the foxholes.  Just a funny observation.  You have to have some serious brass to look death and the face and say there is no God. 

I like the time and lives are lost thing . Who the hell even asked you to do so ???? Did the iraqies ask you guys ? Or did you guys decided on your own that iraqies wanna die for democracy ???


In 10 years iraq gonna be back to the good old islamic days of head choping and ethnic cleansing....

P.s. I think papa needs to die like a martier for the Church ? Can i just decide that on my own and hang you or give you some biblical death ? Will you like that ?

Oh yeah almost forgot. When the argument goes the wrong way for you papa , you start switching the topic a bit . Please don't do that.

[Farley4Fan]

You know what I'll just respond to it now since I won't have time later.

And who killed those people ? 'The terrorists' ? Oh come on , they weren't there before the invasion , they are the result of the invasion , you can't just say ' WE DIDN'T KILL THEM BECAUSE THE TERRORISTS DID'.
Come on its the same as saying ' I didn't kill him , i only hired the killer ' . And yes democracy is worth shit , if it isn't functioning properly and a lot of lives are sacrificed for it.

Maybe with the color red you will understand simple statements.  One can only hope.  This is what your thought process is like right now.  Say you go into a bar.  Someone hates you in the bar.  That someone grabs a knife and stabs some innocent guy chugging a beer.  Then, everyone blames YOU for walking into the bar.  It's idiotic.  And yeah, it's sad that those people have died.  It truly is.  Now what?  What will we do?  Leave?  Let them rebuild their country?  Even though we are now keeping the peace and there's an all time low of killings?  We should just leave and let them rebuild it themselves?  Let the now frail government to fall most likely into another dictatorship?  Do you even know the repercussions of just LEAVING?  We are now very important to the rebuilding of Iraq, I won't argue that we were important to a lot of its problems, but the thing is that we need to be there to help them rebuild.  Fair enough?  Can we at least both see that?

Democracy isn't worth it if it's not functioning properly and a lot of lives are sacrificed for it?  Well, then wtf you just lost a whole entire heap of credibility with this statement, as if it wasn't shattered enough already lately.  If its' not functioning properly, like at this very moment in Iraq, then let us FIX IT AND HELP IT ALONG THE WAY.  If a lot of lives are sacrificed for it, then why when lives are not being lost anymore would we stop and let them have died for nothing?  MAKES NO SENSE SNAKEBIT.  Millions maybe a billion people have died for democracy - it was worth it.  Your biggest flaw is your magnificent impatience and your inability to accept that good things come from struggle.  To put it short and simple for you, NO PAIN NO GAIN.  That's it.  Time to put on the big boy pants and realize that people have to work and sacrifice for good things to come, the world doesn't just 'happen'! like magic.  

I don't like to go into lingvistics because its a stupid argument but this time ill make an exeption.
Un + fortunate . Fortune = luck    UN = negative meaning . Unlucky , how could you say they are unlucky deaths if you said that there are going to be deaths in the first place . Its wasn't by chance , that is why it can't be unlucky .

And here we go into the damned Webster definition AS ALWAYS with you people.  You know what I mean by unfortunate.  It's sad.  It's unfortunate that some people have died in the process of cleaning up their country.  Here's you worrying about definitions and skimming like a mad man through your dictionary but you're too blind to see a lot of things.  There's an old saying.  Something like the black and white of pages in the books may burn into your eyes, burn so that you're blind to the important things.  I forgot how it went.  But anyways, don't be stupid.  I knew some people would die going into the war, DUH, it's unfortunate that more people than expected died.  Is that good enough for you?  Does that fit into the dictionary definitions well enough for you?



Said by papa skull . Lol, so they underestimated the deaths as well then?  They underestimated the things they'd have to endure to succeed their mission?  MY POINT EXACTLY!  But, they kept going, because they knew freedom is important.  Let's follow their lead.  Good try, come again soon.

AT doing things there are usually moderate people and radicals . Well with democracy radicals seems to have triumphed .

Umm, k.  First of all, does not address my comment at all.  Like, at all.  Second, 'radicals seems to have triumphed' in democracy?  Then tell me, why around election time to people always lean towards the center on most issues?  That's not radical at all.  That's being the exact opposite of radical.  You see, in working democracies, such as the one in the U.S., for the most part people do not like radicals.

Democracy is undoubtedly the best form of government.  Not because it gives power to those in command, but because it takes it away.  This is the perfect remedy for those in Iraq that have been suppressed for so long by an all powerful jerk-off.  We can look back and hang our heads in sorrow for those lost.  We can even look back and say, oh shit 1.4 million people died for this, but that's exactly why we cannot stop and say "WHOOPS!  Ah shucks we hit the 1.5 mil number, looks like they all died for nothing!  Oh well..."  No.  We have to keep going and finish the mission - helping Iraq (now really peaceful, you'd be surprised), and giving them a better form of government.  Those are really just the same though.    

You know snakebit it's really not hard to look at you and your words and think about what an impatient heartless asshole you sound like.  I hope it's not you, I don't think it's you, but from your arguments it seems that you don't give a rat's ass about the quality of life that people have in the country of Iraq.  Yeah, it got effed up, yeah people died, but that's why we can't do nothing.  Duh.  Isn't this obvious?  And I'd be willing to bet that if I hadn't said what I'm about to say, you'd be saying I'm heartless because 'i dont care about the 1.4 mil people that died bla bla bla'.  I'm sure you would.  Let's turn that around and say that YOU don't care about the remaining millions that CURRENTLY live in Iraq.  Of course I care about the lives lost, of course it's sad, now tell me your reasons for turning a blind eye to the living, and would be suffering, people of Iraq should we have just left halfway through our mission.

Should we have just showed up, killed Saddam, turned it into chaos and just left?  Or should we finish our mission?  Like it or not, our current mission is just and noble.  This is what you don't get.  WE ARE IN IRAQ!  We can't take it back, we're already there, we must make the best of it.  We have only 2 choices.  Leave, or stay.  Turn it into chaos, or help ensure future prosperity.  You know, sometimes life is black and white.  Sometimes the choices have obvious consequences.  This is one of those times.  If we leave now, we risk losing Iraq and sending them into a greater hole than they've been in for the last 20 years.  If we leave now, we lose all the efforts and sacrifice made to help better a struggling country.  If we stay now, we may lose some more lives, sure, but that's what it takes to help.  It takes sacrifice, effort, time, money, but the result is much better than doing nothing.  You see, I'm not the heartless one.  One of us lacks the you know whats to get stuff done, don't be that guy.  Nobody likes that guy.  The guy who'd rather suck his thumb, sit in the corner, criticize people who take action, criticize any action taken, and hope that the world works itself out.

[Farley4Fan]

Snakebit, I will respond to your nonsense later.  I'll give a little piece of advice now though.  This is what you DO NOT seem to understand.  A democracy cannot be installed overnight and this was the greatest underestimation of the entire Bush admin, don't make the same idiotic mistake.  It takes time, lives are lost along the way, and it ain't easy.  So, my advice to you?  Stfu, be patient, and watch the now PEACEFUL Iraq turn into a full fledged democracy in 10 years with us gone in just a few. 

Westfall, I'll be in company of respectable men in the military as you'll strangely never find any atheists in the foxholes.  Just a funny observation.  You have to have some serious brass to look death and the face and say there is no God. 

I like the time and lives are lost thing . Who the hell even asked you to do so ???? Did the iraqies ask you guys ? Or did you guys decided on your own that iraqies wanna die for democracy ???


In 10 years iraq gonna be back to the good old islamic days of head choping and ethnic cleansing....

P.s. I think papa needs to die like a martier for the Church ? Can i just decide that on my own and hang you or give you some biblical death ? Will you like that ?

Oh yeah almost forgot. When the argument goes the wrong way for you papa , you start switching the topic a bit . Please don't do that.

You effing hypocrite.  Instead of responding to my paragraph, point for point like any decent person would, YOU CHANGE THE FREAKING SUBJECT!  You don't respond, maybe cuz you didn't want to, then you change the topic.  Then later in your post, you have the damned gall to say that I change the subject?  Hypocrite.  Hypocrite.  Hypocrite.

I'm just about done talking to you.  You are really, really, really not worth it.

[frvge]

Lockage?