SCCT Versus Maps

[LennardF1989]

Chemical Industries, Eden, Heliport, and Outpost are all shitty maps that nobody has touched.

Fixed.

As for the emotion, sorry...it's just frustrating to see an entire game built upon someone else's pre-existing framework, but then people get their panties in a bunch about copyright over porting user-made maps. Give me a break.

That's not completely true, yes it shows similarities, but it will feel, look and play completely different, I think it will even be pretty unlikely that "vets" remain "vets" in PS right from the start, a lot of new things will have to be learned and then I don't mean only the maps.

Also note that this game is made by people with a passion for stealth games and not some "hey let's try that out"-dudes. We go pretty far to get everything just right.

[Spekkio]

Same could be said for the maps. The game's on a new engine, so you have to build all the elements from scratch anyway. Additionally, all of the user-made maps except those made by people directly involved with the making of PS need alterations to make them playable anyway.

[goodkebab]

First read the terms of agreement for  CT, and then tell me its legal for us to rip any of the assets from Versus and use in our own game.  If they say its OK,  then we can do it,  if its not mentioned at all,  then it is illegal. 

[goodkebab]

He means that if we port maps and the staticmeshes in them and one happens to be made by Ubisoft we are toast.

True, but isn't there a way to know if the staticmesh is made by ubi or not?  All you would really have to do is compare the static meshes in the map to the meshes in the ubi maps and see.  If one or two are the same, then just change one or two.  If none are the same, then you are in luck!

technically, yes....and if someone was anal retentive they could.  You would have to be an industry professional to know how  (comparing point order of geometry,  UV layouts,  and textures)

The trick to using assets from other projects,  like in game studios that have done several games,  is that you have to make sure things look different enough to pass scrutiny.  In regards to CT, its going to be textures that are most recognizable.

As far as actually ripping assets from CT,  it is certainly possible.   I have ripped the assets from DA with 3d ripper just to have a look at the assets for educational purposes.

Ripping assets and code is done all the time in the industry  for educational purposes.  Example is a game studio wants a special FX in their game that is copied from another game.  The FX probably cant be copywritten,  but the code is.

[frvge]

A summary: an idea can be copied, but not the implementation. Ergo: we base ourselves on SAM and Clubhouse, but the implementation is done from scratch and there's plenty of changes to warrant it being 'ours'. What 'enough changes' is depends on the subject and differs on a case-by-case base.

Ripping for personal educational purposes falls under fair-use (the US form doesn't exist in Dutch law, ours mostly covers citation/parody but AFAIK jurisprudence seems to be fairly close to the US 'fair-use' law). However, you can't use the exactly the same implementation in your own project. A derivation is fine of course, as long as it differs enough, or can't be done in another way (mostly math in code).

[Spekkio]

First read the terms of agreement for  CT, and then tell me its legal for us to rip any of the assets from Versus and use in our own game.  If they say its OK,  then we can do it,  if its not mentioned at all,  then it is illegal.  

It is legal, and it has nothing to do with permission. Permission can waive copyright law in some cases, but the converse is not true: lack of permission or even explicit protest does not make certain acts illegal. I will again point you to the case of Weird Al Yankovic copying Coolio's music for a song parody without his permission, when 2-Live Crew made a Parody of "Oh, Pretty Woman", or someone using someone else's .jpeg in one of those "motivational posters" without permission. Did you get permission from the shooter of that kebab pic to use it as an avatar? No, nor are you legally required to do so. I recommend that you and frvge read more on cases surrounding copyright. Copyright usually extends to copying something almost entirely in its existing form, and for good reason. If judges started to rule in favor of not being able to copy anything at all from a product (eg: a color screen on a mobile phone), there would be no room for innovation and the first person to invent something would have an automatic monopoly on the technology. ID software would be the only developer legally allowed to make FPS games with a shotgun, and Nintendo would be the only developer allowed to make sidescroller platform games in which the character can jump.

Although sometimes copyright law is silly -- such as the fact that it's illegal for me to transfer my legally purchased DVD copy of SCCT entirely onto my hard drive or onto another DVD, even if I'm the only person to ever use it. But using aspects from the product -- even directly and unmodified -- to create your own product is not copyright infringement.

Ripping for personal educational purposes falls under fair-use

I agree, but fair use is not limited to educational purposes.

Also, push come to shove, I sincerely doubt that judges will fail to see through the smoke and mirrors show if you get sued for copyright. Even though you're building the graphics from scratch and renaming the gadgets, it will be fairly easy for any reasonable person to see the extreme similarities of PS to Ubisoft's games. Aesthetic updates aren't going to save you from that fact, but it's somewhat humorous that you think that it will.

It still amazes me that you cannot see the inconsistency in your argument that copying an entire game structure is OK, but copying a map layout isn't.

[frvge]

USA law != Dutch law. We don't parody, Weird Al does. Parody falls under US fair-use, so Weird Al doesn't even have to ask. He's just being nice. We're not parodying another SAM game.

And you speak like you only see graphical name changes. The behaviour of our gadgets is completely coded from scratch, just like the character system, the lobby system, the weapon system, the camera system, and everything else. Currently 67 classes from scratch. It's not a simple change of some string-variable.

In the case of photos and pictures and so on, there's the transformative norm. An avatar is so lowered in quality from an original photo that it can be seen as a different subject. Taking a screenshot from a 3D model is also transformative. Making a photo of a painting is less certain. Encoding a high-quality WAV to a high-quality MP3 is AFAIK not transformative enough. Encoding to some low-quality radio quality is.

It depends on a lot of things. We think we're crossing the grey border if we would (exactly) copy a map/models from people without consent. For the gazillionth time: this is our decision. Don't like our stance? Open up UDK and port it yourself. We're not doing it.

Now get on topic on the maps. Which things/themes/gameplay decisions would you like to see in PS maps?

PS: this is the final word on the copyright thing. Don't make me temp-lock this, that makes me sad. Yes, I know it sucks that an admin has the final word. Maybe you'll have it next time, maybe not.

[Spekkio]

USA law != Dutch law. We don't parody, Weird Al does. Parody falls under US fair-use, so Weird Al doesn't even have to ask. He's just being nice. We're not parodying another SAM game.

Yea? What makes this fall under Dutch law? Firstly, the maker of CT is French, so you'd be better off being concerned about international law, since that's what they'd pursue you under. Secondly, the map makers aren't all Dutch, so you'd be better off being concerned about international law there, too. You make a fine legal representative when you can't even figure out which law you fall under.

Parody was just an example, but not the only one in which a person does not have to ask for permission to copy an aspect of someone else's work. Realistically, there is not a single corporate entity that can benefit from someone else copying any aspect of their products, so the notion that they freely give permission for it is absurd. To put it simply, copyright infringement has very little to do with permission.

And you speak like you only see graphical name changes. The behaviour of our gadgets is completely coded from scratch, just like the character system, the lobby system, the weapon system, the camera system, and everything else. Currently 67 classes from scratch. It's not a simple change of some string-variable.

Congratulations. It'd still be easy for anyone to prove that the code, graphics, etc. are all blatantly aimed toward ripping someone else's work. The thing is, my contention is that it's irrelevant, since it's not illegal anyway.  

"Oh, no, this book is my own work...I used my own ink, paper, and writing tools to make it myself. I know that 95% of the words are the same as this other book by a different author, but I changed the names of some of the characters and made the ending a little less sad so it's totally different now!"

In the case of photos and pictures and so on, there's the transformative norm.

There is, but that is one of 4 criteria used to judge if a work is copyright infringement. Additionally, I noted two pages ago that transferring a map from CT to UDK is going to be transformative in nature.

[Spekkio]

To get back on topic:

What I'd like to see in maps: No sabotage objectives, and a return to the neutralization/extraction choice rather than trying to do it all at once.

[Roberto1223]

Yea, I didn't see your second post on the matter. You hit the nail on the head: as long as no money is involved, it really doesn't matter.

It does matter, as long as the creator didn't put a license on it, it doesn't matter wheter the map was on the internet for free or for pay, we simply can't use it in a real game without explicit permission. That is the authorship-law we all fall under. Unless they transfer authorship to us, or give us written conscent, using a map is illegal. Besides that we don't have the manpower to make "inspired by" maps.

Now, the ones made by Element and Zedblade in the UMP package are easy to talk about, but we really need the names of the authors of the other ones before even attempting to port them.

Hey lennard, did u get written consent from ubisoft to start creating a mod for ut3 HEAVILY INSPIRED IN A COPYRIGHTED GAME?
did u guys get written consent to  copy the gadgets and rename them "Sticky cam" is now "adhesible camera"
stop being so fuckin douchy about this man... lol its just a god damn lost map u can fuckin check it out and see if its good or not at least and if it is then it might inspire you and there is nothing wrong with being inspired from others' work just as it happened with this whole fuckin mod in the first place .

[tigaer]

You guys are getting all worked up over remaking OLD maps? Come on. I'd rather see new maps I've never played on, instead of playing the same maps I've been playing for years just remodeled. This argument is pointless and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Cronky]

You guys are getting all worked up over remaking OLD maps? Come on. I'd rather see new maps I've never played on, instead of playing the same maps I've been playing for years just remodeled. This argument is pointless and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I think that's the point. Less so about the Maps, but rather where the line is drawn on this Issue. While similarities are easily spotted, inspiration is heavily coming from another entity, and gameplay is basically the same; where do you stop?

They have put a halt at the OFFICIAL (Meaning the PS Staff making it) release of previous SCCT maps, whether fan made or Ubisoft's.

When it comes to what we will get to play when we do finally get to play though... what maps will be have? A map that is an updated version of Club House from SCCT. Added area's/changed visuals aside you can see what it is.

It's easier to recreate a map somebody has made, rather than make a new map from scratch. Again, example being Club House.

NOW for on Topic.

Unlike Spekkio, I liked Sabotage... BUT PT Sabotage. I know it was buggy as all hell, but it was also fun for the simple fact that it was like playing Hide and Go Seek with a Modem. With PS having Updates (I assume) the "Bugged Spots" could be patched out.

Plus my favorite SCCT map was Deftec. Something about the level being PRETTY Compacted in a sense. Each area was Split, but that didn't mean that the level was Small. The objective Areas being quite open with MANY ways to get to each objective. Don't really know how to explain it, but it was a great map in my mind. To put it differently... It's like the Smart Car of Levels; Compacted and tiny, but when looking inside it is bigger than first expectations.

Also Picking One Objective like Spekkio said. Doing all 3 at once ruins variety... as backwards as that sounds. The options to perhaps have a "Story Mode" AND the ability to pick one of the 3 types would be good.

[Spekkio]

You guys are getting all worked up over remaking OLD maps? Come on. I'd rather see new maps I've never played on, instead of playing the same maps I've been playing for years just remodeled. This argument is pointless and you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Nah, I'm getting worked up over what Roberto said. It's perfectly okay to copy gadgets from Ubisoft, but maps are a big no no somehow.

[frvge]

For the gazillionth time: this is our decision. Don't like our stance? Open up UDK and port it yourself. We're not doing it.

PS: this is the final word on the copyright thing. Don't make me temp-lock this, that makes me sad. Yes, I know it sucks that an admin has the final word. Maybe you'll have it next time, maybe not.

Temp-locked for consistency. Spekkio, feel free to contact me on xfire or PM. I'm available 16 hours per day. I'll tell you in more detail why I think you're wrong.

[frvge]

Unlocked. Silly me. Thought it was in another forum. My bad. I already had my punishment by having a 5-10 sec blackout today. Luckily in the hospital, but still... anyway, I still prefer if we can leave the copyright stuff and stay on the maps-part.