MT replacement - CombatVision

[Spekkio]

DA MT is stupid for a few reasons:

1. You don't sacrifice anything for the ability to detect motion since it's in the normal vision
2. It's only in the FOV, rendering the vision pointless to begin with. I can see spies moving in front of my face just fine, thankyouverymuch.
3. You need to have special visions as a safeguard to flashbangs.

Anyway, I updated my post on the last page to include images of how forcing normal post render could fix the problem without any of these radical ideas being thrown around.

[goodkebab]

I also want to stick with the traditional MT in low Res without inverting lightmaps  (giving nightvision)

[InvisibleMan999]

Dude, your idea is fucking MT vision with a different color scheme that you can't circumvent except by shocking the merc. For the love of god, give this obsession with MT a rest.

What crack are you smoking, because I want some? Actually shocking the merc doesn't work against this idea, and yet you can sneak past the merc. As far as different color scheme, the concept is entirely different. One scheme inverts shadows, this one deepens them. The main balance concern with this vision is that it may nerf aggro too much (which may very well be a valid concern), but it's certainly not the vision that forces you to shock the merc to bypass.

Your comment seems to suggest that you haven't been reading anything that I've written here. so I don't know what to say beyond telling you to re-read the initial idea before you start typing. While it might or might not be overpowered, I'm not sure how anyone can take your opinion seriously when you have failed to demonstrate even 3rd grade reading skills. 

As far as High Quality post render versus normal post render, it's really not as big a deal as a lot of people think it is. While it makes it easier to use MT as night vision, it isn't exactly essential. Having played on xbox as well as PC, I've had some time to play around with normal post render, and while it's not as clear at long ranges, at medium to close range it functions almost as good. Spies aren't as clear, but they're still quite visible, meaning it's not much of a nerf as far as night vision goes. You can't do true MT cheese like you can on PC, like sniping across the level while in MT, but spies won't be sneaking past you at all. Believe me, you get used to normal post render, and it's still a very effective form of night vision. I've played 500+ hours using normal post render. It's not all that difficult to use it as MT.

Goodkebab's idea of getting rid of the nightvision entirely could fix the problem, at least on some levels. At the very least that may make you care when someone flicks off the lights on bank. It's still rather difficult to sneak past MT though, given you've got to go at a crawl. So even slightly going into a partially lit area probably gives you away, but at the very least more deep shadows mean that MT whores may have to switch off MT for a few seconds to check them with their flashlights. 

Adding a max distance to the grey box similar in range to EMF and removing its NV capability might also help. However, those might not be necessary once the major bugs are fixed and the above changes are implemented. I mean, the point is that in order to get to an objective, you're going to have to move. Ultimately that will make any motion-detecting device paired with a diligent patrol route a generally superior means of detection.

This is exactly the problem with MT. It beats aggro, it's a superior means of spy detection... It's the best at everything. MT really does need a conceptual redesign. It shouldn't exist both to detect spies better than normal vision and to counter aggro.

No one vision should do everything.

[Spekkio]

What crack are you smoking,

Detection Capabilities: CV also has a detection box feature, similar to MT, that works in a 360 radius. The following things set it off. The box can detect beyond the maximum visual range of CV, though it wont' detect a spy behind total cover.

    * Any action that makes sound on the Sound Detector, such as running, drawing a gun, etc.
    * Shooting the sticky shocker or firing one of its gadgets.
    * Rolling spies

This is MT, moron.

Actually shocking the merc doesn't work against this idea,

Oh, even better.

and yet you can sneak past the merc.

Really? Oh because the box doesn't detect the spy when he's going slow? That's what a patrolling is for.

Your idea is MT with sunglasses that the spies can't forcefully remove, and it's stupid. Give it a rest.

I've had some time to play around with normal post render, and while it's not as clear at long ranges, at medium to close range it functions almost as good. Spies aren't as clear, but they're still quite visible, meaning it's not much of a nerf as far as night vision goes. You can't do true MT cheese like you can on PC, like sniping across the level while in MT, but spies won't be sneaking past you at all. Believe me, you get used to normal post render, and it's still a very effective form of night vision.

That's the whole point. Normal post-render is the slight nerf that MT needs. You have three equipment items that can be used to know where the merc is -- when he comes near you, it's time to find a better hiding spot. The fact that a merc can discover you when he's "at close or medium range" isn't MT's fault, it's your fault for being out in the open when the merc is near you.

[InvisibleMan999]

Detection Capabilities: CV also has a detection box feature, similar to MT, that works in a 360 radius. The following things set it off. The box can detect beyond the maximum visual range of CV, though it wont' detect a spy behind total cover.

    * Any action that makes sound on the Sound Detector, such as running, drawing a gun, etc.
    * Shooting the sticky shocker or firing one of its gadgets.
    * Rolling spies

This is MT, moron.

Apparently you missed the part about how you can do a normal crouch walk past it. That's a huge change.

In addition, it has no night vision, it deepens the shadows, making it harder to see a spy, not easier.

Still sound like the MT you know?

That's the whole point. Normal post-render is the slight nerf that MT needs. You have three equipment items that can be used to know where the merc is -- when he comes near you, it's time to find a better hiding spot. The fact that a merc can discover you when he's "at close or medium range" isn't MT's fault, it's your fault for being out in the open when the merc is near you.

This isn't double agent, nor do I want it to be. You don't have the luxury of having 15+ secret spy routes that have total cover to the merc's vision. This is CT, the game where sometimes you've got to slip past a merc, and that generally means he has a chance of seeing you. The problem with MT is that it takes forever to slow crouch past it, and he can also see you if he happens to turn in your direction.

Part of this game is sometimes you're going to have to sneak past the merc. I want spies to have a chance to be spotted. If they're just crawling around vents, what's the fun of that? What I don't want is some ubervision giving the merc the ability to see in darkness and automatically pointing them out if they move faster than a snail's pace.

I've played CT on xbox with normal post render. Trust me, MT is almost as hard to beat there.

[Daybreak]

While the detection system for MT or whatever we'll call it, is still under discussion. Perhapse a different visual view is needed. I think it should be rather simple and eliminate the ability to see but not the ability to navigate a level.

After I finish work i'll show you what I mean. The suckyness of MT is the ability of Nightvision and it's sensitivity. We can play with the sensitivity, but we should make the vision our own.

[Spekkio]

If the goal is to copy SvM gameplay, then I think that only minimal changes to vision modes should be made. Besides, small changes often have large impacts on balance. Taking away high-quality graphics + taking away NV + nerfing sensitivity to not pick up fast crouch movement might = spies go rampant.

Invisible, you need to stop being hung up about modifying the game so that you can bypass the mercs in a specific way that you desire. I'm sorry, but crouch walking past a merc in open view when you don't have anyone distracting the merc is a pipedream unless you're playing morons.  It's not MT that's the culprit because I find spies just fine without whoring MT 90% of the time; it's the fact that human players are intelligent and are actually actively looking for you. If I'm playing Museum, I know that there are generally 3 places the spies have to cross to infiltrate the map: on the ceiling, going to outer monolith vent, or going to exhibition vent.  Between two mercs, multiple mines, spytraps/camnet, it's not that hard to find spies crawling around, even without MT.

Normal post render + slow crouch walking on a slant doesn't detect + camo that doesn't alert mercs to your presence from nearly infinite distance will probably balance MT enough. Camo will be the natural stealth hard counter to an MT whore, and shock + chaff will be the natural aggro hard counter. You won't even need to change the night vision part of it. IF that doesn't balance MT enough, then you can start with the NV and max sight radius and all this other crap. But I really think that will do the trick.

[InvisibleMan999]

Taking away high-quality graphics + taking away NV + nerfing sensitivity to not pick up fast crouch movement might = spies go rampant.

Why do you think that? I mean, how much damage can a fast crouching spy really do?

Invisible, you need to stop being hung up about modifying the game so that you can bypass the mercs in a specific way that you desire. I'm sorry, but crouch walking past a merc in open view when you don't have anyone distracting the merc is a pipedream unless you're playing morons.

Nah, you just wait for them to look away, then you cross from cover to cover. It's not exactly crossing a wide open space, but just moving from one point of cover to the next, and that's very possible. It's hard but at least it's possible.

It also means that the merc has to actually see you with his own eyes. He doesn't have the benefit of just automatically being told you're there.

It's not MT that's the culprit because I find spies just fine without whoring MT 90% of the time; it's the fact that human players are intelligent and are actually actively looking for you. If I'm playing Museum, I know that there are generally 3 places the spies have to cross to infiltrate the map: on the ceiling, going to outer monolith vent, or going to exhibition vent.  Between two mercs, multiple mines, spytraps/camnet, it's not that hard to find spies crawling around, even without MT.

Yeah, museum is a rather easy map to lock down. But that's not true of every map.

Normal post render + slow crouch walking on a slant doesn't detect + camo that doesn't alert mercs to your presence from nearly infinite distance will probably balance MT enough. Camo will be the natural stealth hard counter to an MT whore, and shock + chaff will be the natural aggro hard counter. You won't even need to change the night vision part of it. IF that doesn't balance MT enough, then you can start with the NV and max sight radius and all this other crap. But I really think that will do the trick.

Possibly fixing camo may be the answer. If camo is better, then it could fix the problem. But even still, slow crouching takes forever. One of the really powerful things about MT is that even if they sneak past you, which is difficult at best, to do so, they've needed to burn up a lot of time slow crouching, so they've used up more precious seconds than they normally would even if they succeed in evading you. It tends to amount to a lose-lose situation.

[Spekkio]

Possibly fixing camo may be the answer. If camo is better, then it could fix the problem. But even still, slow crouching takes forever. One of the really powerful things about MT is that even if they sneak past you, which is difficult at best, to do so, they've needed to burn up a lot of time slow crouching, so they've used up more precious seconds than they normally would even if they succeed in evading you. It tends to amount to a lose-lose situation.

Yes, stealth is slow.

Yeah, museum is a rather easy map to lock down. But that's not true of every map.

Yes, it is. There are always a select few places where the spies are going to be on any map, because these places are strategically more important. For example, if you're in club house and haven't heard any action for 20 seconds or so and don't see anything on camnet, the spies cooped. Theres almost a 0 chance that they're hanging out somwhere near the garden glass hack, since that serves no purpose.

[kronf]

This thread = this thread http://projectstealth.splintercellnetwork.com/index.php/topic,333.0.html

[Spekkio]

LOL.

[B1nArY_001]

If you two are done comparing dicks, I'd like to point out that normal post render alone is not going to fix MT. Deepening the shadows to avoid the NV effect (not inverting the light map) would be an improvement. MT has not broken the game yet and is not God mode if you play smart. It does not require a complete redesign, only some tweaks to pull it back into balance.

[goodkebab]

most people agree with you Binary, its just that a selective population are more vocal of their opinions then they are representative of the common opinion.

[Daybreak]

Whatever. Think TRON for my version of MT.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7776/mtpa3.jpg

[InvisibleMan999]

Whatever. Think TRON for my version of MT.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7776/mtpa3.jpg

Heh, I actually thought of something similar to that. A wireframe display. I just never mentioned it because I wasn't sure how difficult that would be to code. It seems like it'd require a lot of programming to make it go. But that'd be nice for navigation view.

If that's codeable, it'd be really cool.