new anti aggro move for mercs

[Gawain]

i'm pretty sure that either with 4 or 5 slots much more people would take camo with no eax bs activation noise + weaker mt/some influence of camo on detection speed or simply more invisibility. we also have to consider that with less lagg and client side mask, quick cams get way harder to master thus resulting in loosing attractivity. same goes for chaff, if it looses the stupid ability to work through walls etc. it's really impossible to foresee the balance issues considering the time people needed to find out that hbs rocks. i'm biased towars 5 slots, because i think that what makes a good player is adaption to the current situation, and there are simply more possibilities this way.

[InvisibleMan999]

Now, would triple nade/cams/snares be too strong? I don't know, but it would be countered by the fact that the mercs have frags/mines/tazer/gasmask/spy traps. That's something that you would have to test to find out.

If you're talking about something close to the PT taser and a removal of side grabs, along with client side gas mask, then I don't really think it'll be overpowered for spies. In fact, it'll end up being better than it is now. Right now you can get your partner have him throw down snares while you triple nade the merc. Then both of you go and try to grab/cam him.

[MR.Mic]

I'll use my 11th finger =/

How are you going to get the f5 key in your pants?

[B1nArY_001]

Sometimes ideas are just bad. Quick throwing proxies is not a good idea. How about you give spies rocket launchers and then remove it later when you find out what we already know?

There are a lot of things that can be done with this. For example, it takes about 1.5-2 seconds to place a proxy. Make the proxy have a slight delay before activation and it's the same thing except you didn't need a wall next to you. There is also the animation time as well.

You're not even an aggro player so you don't have much to worry about as a spy and as a merc if you don't want to drop a mine, get shocked and then have the mine blown up in your face - don't drop a mine.

Think it through thoroughly; and for God's sake man get a new analogy! spy and rocket launcher...  ::)

What about this idea is bad? I would honestly like to know what exactly makes this so horrible.

[Gawain]

it allows placing mines without any danger for the merc. besides, mines in the open don't serve much purpose anyways, and so do mines in vents. the idea sounds cool at first look, but i can't imagine any gameplay improvement brought by it.

[SITHDUKE]

I'm not that fond of this idea. Binary adding a longer delay to the mine doesn't solve anything. The merc is still mobile and being mobile is alot better than being stuck crouched humping your mine when a spy walks in. It would basically mean mercs could spam mines into a room the spies are aggroing. Typically they'd never EVER have that chance because if he tried he he knows for a fact he'd either get necked while tryng or blown up after its placed. This would basically allow a merc to run at whatever bottleneck / objective and mine it 'on the fly' with no risk at all.

What's wrong with this? Well look at it from the spies side. You cleared Garden 1st of mines and a merc comes in. You either run away while he's chasing you he can drop mines passing the Garden terminal so you can't double back without having to deal with the mines again. The merc is free to chase you, has lost no time stopping to plant a mine and has still left a mine at the terminal. The alternative is you can fight the merc, tazing and grenading him whiel he drops mines, even if you neck him he's left proxies that one of the spies is likely to have been killed on just attempting to neck the guy and even if you do neck him you've got to waste more time dealing with his mines so his partner can come along.

[B1nArY_001]

Saying that the merc can place this mine poses no risk to the merc is completely untrue. All that needs to happen is make the merc immobile while he is dropping the mine. He wouldn't be immune to be shocked or necked while doing so. It would pose the same amount of risk as placing a mine on a wall.

I never made the assumption that the merc would remain mobile while placing the mine. Perhaps I missed something in a previous post but yes, having the merc remain 100% mobile while placing could cause a problem.

[SITHDUKE]

Ah alright then I guess if you're not mobile and it still pauses you, having mines on the floor seems kind of redundant then doesn't it? Or will it be about having vertical laser and poison mines?

[Spekkio]

Saying that the merc can place this mine poses no risk to the merc is completely untrue. All that needs to happen is make the merc immobile while he is dropping the mine. He wouldn't be immune to be shocked or necked while doing so. It would pose the same amount of risk as placing a mine on a wall.

I never made the assumption that the merc would remain mobile while placing the mine. Perhaps I missed something in a previous post but yes, having the merc remain 100% mobile while placing could cause a problem.

That's not what kebab was talking about.

For the third time: stop, crouch, place mine = good. Fart out proxy instantly as an anti-aggro measure = bad.

And hell no to the delay. Part of what makes placing proxies dangerous is the fact that a spy can run by and blow you up.

[Spekkio]

Now, would triple nade/cams/snares be too strong? I don't know, but it would be countered by the fact that the mercs have frags/mines/tazer/gasmask/spy traps. That's something that you would have to test to find out.

If you're talking about something close to the PT taser and a removal of side grabs, along with client side gas mask, then I don't really think it'll be overpowered for spies. In fact, it'll end up being better than it is now. Right now you can get your partner have him throw down snares while you triple nade the merc. Then both of you go and try to grab/cam him.

Perhaps...

I think a lot of people inherintly oppose the 5/8 idea and think that 4/8 is "fine" is because they are automatically discounting two pieces of equipment on both sides -- Camo/snares for spies and flares/tazer for mercs. This reduces the amount of effective equipment choices to 4/6. Hell, PT had the same problem -- the merc's equipment was really a choice of 4/4 gadgets, while the spies chose 4/6. I never feel constrained about taking 4 gadgets as merc because it's really a choice between backpack/traps/camnet, which can easily be coordinated with my partner. However, as someone who likes to fool around with snares and camo very often, I find myself giving up 'too much' to take these gadgets, particularly on maps where chaff is necessary because triple lasers guard doorways. It's not that camo and snares are useless; in fact, they are far from it. It's just that they often don't fit in a loadout where space is extremely limited and the "must haves" just trump them. In turn, I can only really take snares when I have the ability to coordinate my equipment with my partner, thus allowing me to give up HBS/bullets or chaff without completely crippling my ability to win.

I think that if PS can balance out the equipment where the 'useless' stuff is actually tempting to take, you guys might start to feel the same constraint I do. Only being able to take 4 out of 8 truly useful equipment items is extremely limiting, especially to people who don't have steady partners and cannot coordinate equipment so easily.

[InvisibleMan999]

I think a lot of people inherintly oppose the 5/8 idea and think that 4/8 is "fine" is because they are automatically discounting two pieces of equipment on both sides -- Camo/snares for spies and flares/tazer for mercs.

Yeah, if we want to make the 5 slot idea work we're going to have to make the other gadgets better. Because as it is now, you coudl give me 8 slots as a merc, and I still wouldn't use flares or the tazer, they're not even worth the button to select right now.

[psyichic]

I would say that the flare just needs to be replaced entirely. But yes I could understand how a 5/8 system would work well if all the gadgets were actually usefull but the problem is I think actually replacing dud equipment pieces with working ones that balance in with all the other equipment.

[InvisibleMan999]

I would say that the flare just needs to be replaced entirely. But yes I could understand how a 5/8 system would work well if all the gadgets were actually usefull but the problem is I think actually replacing dud equipment pieces with working ones that balance in with all the other equipment.

Yeah flares suck. I can't see any way of making them remotely useful. I prefer actually making some of the merc weapon stuff or visions into gadgets. Like MT or sniping scope would make a perfect gadget.

[Spekkio]

Incendiary grenades ftw :).

[B1nArY_001]

If phosphorus grenades with incendiary properties were introduced it would have to be a chemical burn. Any flame would destroy the phosphor (this is what was discussed in another thread yes?).

To achieve the visibility and the burn along with the spy being lit up by running through it we could do the following -

Incendiary Grenade - 4-6 second burn, damage over time similar to poison but slower after having left flames, creates light, casts shadows creating new areas to hide for a few seconds (if it would work out performance wise), sets spy on fire in small patches at random places on the body making him temporarily more visible (could even make the spy a light source while he's on fire - once again if performance allows).