small window showing your mate's view

[Westfall]

The only reasoning I've seen as to why this is a good idea is because if you have a mate who doesn't know what hes doing then you can go assist. Still wouldn't matter if the spies were split up messing around with you one on one.

The reasons I've seen for bad, which outweigh the good significantly, are the taking up of screen room, the unnecessary distraction, the drop in use of mics. Other reasons include it being cheap, which it is, programming issues (can I get a dev on this one), the lag that would go along with this, and just the reason that it doesn't even make sense why it would work in the game.

This died with the other thread it was with. Let it stay there please.

[Tinweasele]

these forums are hilarious,

person 1-new idea-
person 2-hate it-
person 3- not like orignal ct-
person 1- explains
person 2-hate it-
person 3- ignores explination, i dont like it-

EVERYTHING CAN BE BALANCED EVERYTHING.

and since spekk is gone i guess i have to play the role of devils advocate.

this is a good idea because it encourages a more casual playerbase to join.  Set the view as a toggle in replacement of the minimap( no ui issues),  if you have ever played HL2 you realize that we have officially progressed to the point where remote cameras do NOT cause a performance hit.  OP??? how is that op? it puts the people without mics up to a closer standing with those without and helps encourage pug groups instead the elitistism we have now.  if you are REALLY concerned with OMG YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR PARTNER IS DOING!?!?!?! give it to both teams and enforce a first person view on the cameras.  how much time do you spend with your spy staring at a wall, while using the camera to look around a corner.  as for a distraction... please, please if you are having issues with distractions in games such as shiney lights, go back to pong, that should be simple enough for you.

pros:

casual friendly
enhanced teamwork ( perfect timing of assaults)

cons:

...  i guess that we have to actually make some changes to CT?  NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo our most favoritist game might actually evolve into something new.

[Hyrage]

Well, if you can see what your partner is doing, make it a logical reason, visor or something for the spy or the merc, whatever. It's interesting to see what everybody thinks about this feature.

Casual doesn't mean noob. A casual gamer is simply a gamer playing less than a hardcore. We already have a mic for Team Work, we already have to look at our partner or to listen to what he has to say to enhance Teamwork and you also have to get the right timing as you said to achieve it.

The player has to do this by himself with the tool we give to him [aim, movement, camera, etc]. If PS has a Small Window showing what your partner is doing it will act exactly like a "radar". It's the same Game mechanic, it's a system doing the job for the player.

Classic Radar:
This system is usually based on the sounds generated by the other players and there location.

Consequences
The player do not need to hear what is going on. He doesn't need to guess anymore from where the shots were coming from. He doesn't need to aniticipate his enemy's movement because he see him on the radar and he can't over-think him.

Conclusion
This system is removing many gameplays, strategies and suprise elements. Everything that has been done [sounds, visual effects, leve ldesign, etc] becomes useless. No need to hear anything, no need to anticpate and create reactions, no need to use a greande as a 1 second smoke grenade to trick, etc.

Small window showing what your partner is doing:
This system is usually based on the vision generated by the other player.

Consequences
The player do not need to watch what his partner is doing. He doesn't need to guess anymore where is the enemy in the other room with his partner to help him. He doesn't need to aniticipate his enemy's movement because he see him on screen and he can't develop or create any strategies by himself to find this out. The mic becomes useless to describe what you or your partner just saw.

Conclusion
This system is removing many gameplays, strategies and suprise elements. Everything that has been done [sounds, visual effects, leve ldesign, etc] becomes useless. No need to hear anything, no need to anticpate and create reactions, no need to use a greande as a 1 second smoke grenade to trick, etc. You can already see what is happening on the other siade by looking at your partner screen. The chances for suprise elements and smart gameplays are removed and you already see what is going on in your back.

=========================================

I think there is too many negative sides to this feature. I great game isn't making his gameplays easier for the casual gamers because the attractive points of the game are exactly the fact that these things are difficult to achieve by yourself and by a good communication.

Halo 2 and 3 are bad because they tried to attract casual gamers by scrapping the core gameplay [auto-aim, lunging strikes + general damage, linear and repetitive health system, etc]. Call of Duty 4 is bad for his martyr dome, auto-aim, auto-kill claymore, 3 quick body shots to kill, etc... All these casual gaming elements aren't improving the quality of a game. Do not misunderstand the point, I'm not saying "CoD4 and Halo are bad games".

Guitar Hero 2-3 are awesome because the core gameplay isn't changed and nothing is there to help [oky, what I said isn't totally correct because GH3 is using a little "auto-aim" system that makes the notes easier to hit], but it stays that a great game design stays a great game design. Trying to make some gameplays easier is never a good thing because by doing this you destroy everything linked to it. Everything that is done during the production takes time and efforts... sometimes money so makeing a system that makes many stuff useless isn't great at all.

Feel free to argue, debate and express yourself... The idea of the small window is interesting, but maybe not great enough to fit in PS.
I could be all wrong   8)

[BurningDeath]

I overthought the idea and read Tin's post and I have to say .. good idea .. should definitely go in! I think it's one of those changes that really add to the gameplay!

Reasons:

- Makes the game wayyy more appealing to new players. They can learn from better ones, copy their actions and learn what to do.

- Makes cooperating without mics easier and still doesn't hurt the importance of mics, because you've still got a considerable advantage when using mics.

- Makes timing a lot easier, you don't have to ask your partner if he's ready to cover you, just a quick look at the top left corner of your screen and you know it.

=> Good thing, go BuddyCam!

[Hyrage]

I overthought the idea and read Tin's post and I have to say .. good idea .. should definitely go in! I think it's one of those changes that really add to the gameplay!

Reasons:

- Makes the game wayyy more appealing to new players. They can learn from better ones, copy their actions and learn what to do.

- Makes cooperating without mics easier and still doesn't hurt the importance of mics, because you've still got a considerable advantage when using mics.

- Makes timing a lot easier, you don't have to ask your partner if he's ready to cover you, just a quick look at the top left corner of your screen and you know it.

=> Good thing, go BuddyCam!

But you also stop the casual players to become better and smarter at playing the game.

It obligates the good and great players to use this feature and makes the team skills they developed useless.

You promote individual gameplay when the game should be based on Teamwork, searching, observing, tracking and make suprises.

What is the point in making a cover [a map] if anyway you can see your enemy in your mate's view and you can exactly see where he is going behind it?

So by making it a real feature you would just breaking down the design of this game, wouldn't it?

[AgentX_003]

I overthought the idea and read Tin's post!

YES PT VETS FOR THE WIN AND THANK GOD FOR THE VETERNS

cause without this insight then all would be lost =) !

                               ^
                                I
IMPLANT THAT ABOVE STATEMENT INTO YOUR HEADS


but to stay on topic here, I also think its a good idea even tho that system already exists in UT3 it self as it stands inside the game, wow some of you haven't bought UT3 yet, lazy hos

anyway 

Conz :  if not locked the player can see both sides of whats going on .

Pros : like people said before it gives New comers an insight . but then again  I thought a tutorial mode is being made scince thats why you have a writer ? .

[Tinweasele]

I overthought the idea and read Tin's post and I have to say .. good idea .. should definitely go in! I think it's one of those changes that really add to the gameplay!

Reasons:

- Makes the game wayyy more appealing to new players. They can learn from better ones, copy their actions and learn what to do.

- Makes cooperating without mics easier and still doesn't hurt the importance of mics, because you've still got a considerable advantage when using mics.

- Makes timing a lot easier, you don't have to ask your partner if he's ready to cover you, just a quick look at the top left corner of your screen and you know it.

=> Good thing, go BuddyCam!

But you also stop the casual players to become better and smarter at playing the game.

It obligates the good and great players to use this feature and makes the team skills they developed useless.

You promote individual gameplay when the game should be based on Teamwork, searching, observing, tracking and make suprises.

What is the point in making a cover [a map] if anyway you can see your enemy in your mate's view and you can exactly see where he is going behind it?

So by making it a real feature you would just breaking down the design of this game, wouldn't it?

helping new players learn the game does not mean that they wont learn the deeper strategies over time, it just evens out the learning curve.

yes it means older players will learn new tricks, this is a good thing, once again putting older players more on par at release.  These players of course will pick up on new tricks for it very quick but its a temporary thing anyway,  new is goooood.

it doesnt promote individual play anymore than giving each spy a tazer or gas,  if only 1 could do those things then you would say, well thats just making teamwork nescessary and harsh.  having your teammate at an advantageous spot to see an incoming merc is just a different style of play.  and finally if you can see him through first person, as i suggested, then the old saying comes to mind, if i can see him he can see me, and subsequently put a bullet through my face.

[Gawain]

i wouldn't rush it, it's a complicated matter. i just think that we don't have to copy the hud functions of a certain game 1:1.

[Hyrage]

I overthought the idea and read Tin's post and I have to say .. good idea .. should definitely go in! I think
it's one of those changes that really add to the gameplay!

Reasons:

- Makes the game wayyy more appealing to new players. They can learn from better ones, copy their actions and learn what to do.

- Makes cooperating without mics easier and still doesn't hurt the importance of mics, because you've still got a considerable advantage when using mics.

- Makes timing a lot easier, you don't have to ask your partner if he's ready to cover you, just a quick look at the top left corner of your screen and you know it.

=> Good thing, go BuddyCam!

But you also stop the casual players to become better and smarter at playing the game.

It obligates the good and great players to use this feature and makes the team skills they developed useless.

You promote individual gameplay when the game should be based on Teamwork, searching, observing, tracking and make suprises.

What is the point in making a cover [a map] if anyway you can see your enemy in your mate's view and you can exactly see where he is going behind it?

So by making it a real feature you would just breaking down the design of this game, wouldn't it?

helping new players learn the game does not mean that they wont learn the deeper strategies over time, it just evens out the learning curve.

yes it means older players will learn new tricks, this is a good thing, once again putting older players more on par at release.  These players of course will pick up on new tricks for it very quick but its a temporary thing anyway,  new is goooood.

it doesnt promote individual play anymore than giving each spy a tazer or gas,  if only 1 could do those things then you would say, well thats just making teamwork nescessary and harsh.  having your teammate at an advantageous spot to see an incoming merc is just a different style of play.  and finally if you can see him through first person, as i suggested, then the old saying comes to mind, if i can see him he can see me, and subsequently put a bullet through my face.

Sorry, I modified the content of the post, I felt it too much "arrogant" - and it wasn't the way I wanted to express it.

Well, I will not say anything else in this thread, I already countered many things you said in my previous posts. I'll simply wait and see what the PS Dev Team is going to do with that.

The only point I bring is... there is no reason to make a Feature that is making the gameplay easier. It means, creating rules (game design of the game) and making a system (small window) that breaks these rules = wasting your time.

The small window showing your mate's view interferes with pretty much every gameplays, but I totally agree that this is a good feature for new comer and lone wolves.

[Gawain]

it doesn't interfere with anything at all, you don't see more than your mate does and he could just tell you what he's seeing anyways. stop spamming those ridiculous long pots with no substance plz, it's a pain in the ass to read it all and find no new point in it at all.

[frvge]

"not seeing more than your mate does" only applies to the Mercs. The other Spy's camera can be aimed at another than his first-person view.

[BurningDeath]

The only point I bring is... there is no reason to make a Feature that is making the gameplay easier.

Yes there is. Look at how many people are playing CT SvM nowadays. We sure want to have more than that!

[Hyrage]

it doesn't interfere with anything at all, you don't see more than your mate does and he could just tell you what he's seeing anyways. stop spamming those ridiculous long pots with no substance plz, it's a pain in the ass to read it all and find no new point in it at all.

I guess that you do not have to read all the posts. You are right, you do not see more than what your mate does, but if you work together you can cover at the same time twice the map with your eyes if you both have a good coordination.

Spamming: Spam is the posting of advertisements, abusive, or unneeded messages on Internet forums. --> my posts are explicative

Then I strongly suggest you to take a Game Design Formation, to understand chess or even to play rock-paper-scissor.

It's really simple.
You have a spy who can use a smoke grenade and walk silently.
You have a merc who can use his motion tracker vision and his eyes to detect sounds by looking at his reticle, but both have a friend.
Well, the merc can see in his screen a small window showing his mate's view.
The spy is running toward the merc and smoke him in the face...
The merc is blind and slow...
To counter, he can use his visions... but the spy isn't using night visions or running.. he is slow and walk silently.Perfect! The merc just can't spot him.

This was a balanced situation where both used their possible tools against each others, but...

The second merc is on the other side of the map and he is shooting the other spy. In his screen you can see a jumping spy who is going to kill the first merc by his right side. The smoke is gone... and oh the merc just kill the spy easily avoiding the drop attack and striking him during the hard landing.

Yes the other Merc could have just say that the spy was at his right, but he would never be able to clearly explain where he was exactly in mid-air what would give enough time to the spy to kill the merc. The Game Balance is broken with this example, but if looking at this small window requires a sacrifice/ balanced gameplay [can't move for a few seconds, etc...] it could greatly fit and it could be an excellent idea  ;D.

Communication jammer could get a nice place here - blocking both the small screens and the mics
This way it would be totally balanced, I guess.  ::)

[frvge]

interesting idea . I might like the option where it'd take like 5 seconds to 'join' in your partner's vision. But Mercs only!

[Hyrage]

interesting idea . I might like the option where it'd take like 5 seconds to 'join' in your partner's vision. But Mercs only!

I think it would be great ^^, let's see if we could find better or if it's just fine