[Official] Spy discussion

[Swiftling]

IMO, a gas from the wrist, if it really exist in the final release, must be choosable gadget, and with that it won't have any "recharge" period, but one time usage, which to be restored from the ammo crate at the insertion point. The only rechargable thing the spy has, must be his energy, which powers his Camo suit (if it exist in the final release) and tazer. Making any gadget  "rechargable" means putting COOLDOWN on it. This is not World of Warcraft. Putting recharge time on something also means he can kill, go somewhere safe, wait the period, then kill again. Making it one time usage with option to restore ammo at the IP, makes the spy lose more time going to the base, also risking meeting a merc on the way there. That way the things are balanced.

[LennardF1989]

Well, another idea Dwarf brought up were random droppings of ammo, instead of a stock place. Which I also think is a very cool idea.

Gadgets are, per definition, choosable. At least, thats how we implement gadgets in terms of programming.

[VaNilla]

Reading the Spy description made me wonder, and I'm not sure if it's been discussed before, will there be multiple speed settings for the spy and the merc to use (after all, the ability to move at different speeds as a merc would be useful, otherwise the spies may be able to hear you) like in PT?

[LennardF1989]

Reading the Spy description made me wonder, and I'm not sure if it's been discussed before, will there be multiple speed settings for the spy and the merc to use (after all, the ability to move at different speeds as a merc would be useful, otherwise the spies may be able to hear you) like in PT?

I had it implemented in such a way, untill I was told the merc can't move slowly (unless when aiming down the sight). Which I found odd, because pretty much every FPS allows multiple movement speeds.

[Swiftling]

Well, another idea Dwarf brought up were random droppings of ammo, instead of a stock place. Which I also think is a very cool idea.

Gadgets are, per definition, choosable. At least, thats how we implement gadgets in terms of programming.

The word "random" is the one you have to think for. Basicly the point of the game is tactical advantage of the one of the teams. When yo trust the randomness to resupply your gadgets/ammo, you trust into a computer to decide where and when the bonuses will drop for you. You will not know where or when and you cant think of tactics. And i know you're going to tell me "what about fixed power ups with fixed time or respawning". Well then how will you feel if your team mate is out of granades, like you, and he gets the power up first (before you). then you won't have granades for extended period of time. You will have to stop guarding your objective to lose time in searching for other power ups that actually respawned. A fixed IP (insertion point) for both teams is balanced and tactical enough for this type of game.

[AgentX_003]

IMO, a gas from the wrist, if it really exist in the final release, must be choosable gadget, and with that it won't have any "recharge" period, but one time usage, which to be restored from the ammo crate at the insertion point. The only rechargable thing the spy has, must be his energy, which powers his Camo suit (if it exist in the final release) and tazer. Making any gadget  "rechargable" means putting COOLDOWN on it. This is not World of Warcraft. Putting recharge time on something also means he can kill, go somewhere safe, wait the period, then kill again. Making it one time usage with option to restore ammo at the IP, makes the spy lose more time going to the base, also risking meeting a merc on the way there. That way the things are balanced.

Im going to derail this thought train, Yes it maybe a cool thing to have smoke from the wrists but A) very pointless when you have sticky cameras...which i might add have already been modeled and B) smoke gernades that do more then just a tiny spurt of gas so lets not change the entire dynamics.

[Spark Mandriller]

The word "random" is the one you have to think for.

You mean you don't like instas?

[Swiftling]

I mean i don't like a computer do decide where and when i will replenish, instead of me.

[frvge]

It would be possible to randomize some points at the start, and then keeping those static for the match. You aren't confined to pure randomness but you will need to check what spawned where once.

[Swiftling]

And i know you're going to tell me "what about fixed power ups with fixed time or respawning". Well then how will you feel if your team mate is out of granades (for example; it may be gadgets or etc.), like you, and he gets the power up first (before you). Then you won't have granades for extended period of time. You will have to stop guarding your objective to lose time in searching for other power ups that actually respawned. A fixed IP (insertion point) for both teams is balanced and tactical enough for this type of game.

Not to mention the lost time when the game begins and all the players start to search for the random spawned power ups. This is just not working.

[LennardF1989]

IMO, a gas from the wrist, if it really exist in the final release, must be choosable gadget, and with that it won't have any "recharge" period, but one time usage, which to be restored from the ammo crate at the insertion point. The only rechargable thing the spy has, must be his energy, which powers his Camo suit (if it exist in the final release) and tazer. Making any gadget  "rechargable" means putting COOLDOWN on it. This is not World of Warcraft. Putting recharge time on something also means he can kill, go somewhere safe, wait the period, then kill again. Making it one time usage with option to restore ammo at the IP, makes the spy lose more time going to the base, also risking meeting a merc on the way there. That way the things are balanced.

Im going to derail this thought train, Yes it maybe a cool thing to have smoke from the wrists but A) very pointless when you have sticky cameras...which i might add have already been modeled and B) smoke gernades that do more then just a tiny spurt of gas so lets not change the entire dynamics.

The whole point is having it as a last resort when the merc is in punch reach. So instead of punching, you can distort him with a smoke-attack, which could give you enough time to hack that final second.

This is a whole other way of using smoke (which isn't even blinding like the smoke grenade, just the instant distortion effect). I would like to see you shoot a sticky camera, go into the cameraview and pop its smoke in the fraction of a second the merc is charging at you. As in: A scenario other than where you already rigged a sticky cam somewhere.

AND! Modelling doesn't have anything to do with this in any way, if we need a glove-like wrist thingie, it can be modelled in matters of hours.

And i know you're going to tell me "what about fixed power ups with fixed time or respawning". Well then how will you feel if your team mate is out of granades (for example; it may be gadgets or etc.), like you, and he gets the power up first (before you). Then you won't have granades for extended period of time. You will have to stop guarding your objective to lose time in searching for other power ups that actually respawned. A fixed IP (insertion point) for both teams is balanced and tactical enough for this type of game.

I'm pretty sure he meant random ammo-crates each time a round is initiated, so it's not always at the same spot when the round starts ;)

Although, your intepretation of random IP's is quite interesting, too. Imagine that mall level of CT. If we would have multiple IP's of which one was chosen random to play the round with, merc's would have no idea where to place those mines (which they now just put on every vent leading from the stock IP).

Same goes for Polar Base, you could see exactly what the spies did after spawning by using CamNet. By having a random chosen point, it also introduces a much more realistic element of surprise. Mercs don't know their enemy storywise and it should therefor be a surprise where and when they come against one.

[Swiftling]

I am totally agree with random insertion points (if it can be done). But the ammo crate for each team must be at their spawn point. If the spawn point is at different location, there will be no logical explanation. Like the moles say to the spys after the mission "We are very sorry that we misplaced the crate with ammo. We promise that wont happen again.". Or the spys, before the mission, tell to each other "Hey lets place the ammo crate on a totally different spot from the IP. That way it can be more interesting. Dont you think?"

Also, What will be the type of multiplay? 2v2? 3v3?

[LennardF1989]

Then again, do we really want to "disturb" the Spy players with a choice where to place an ammo crate?

In the most light sense, random ammocrates can also mean at different locations within the IP (for the sake of variation, on the table, below the table, on the left, on the right, etc). Or indeed, to give it a more cinematic feeling, someone tells you the mole left resupplies at location X, which is then pinpointed on the HUD/Minimap.

From the beginning, I've always thought we should allow both (2vs2, 3vs3).

[Swiftling]

I didn't mean to give the opportunity to the spys to chose where to place the ammo crate. But what ever. The whole idea with the Random IPs is quite good. Also will there be fixed number of the IPs possible or this will be different for each map? And when both 2v2 and 3v3 will be enabled, will there be 2v2 and 3v3 separated maps? And will the users be able to create their own?

[LennardF1989]

I didn't mean to give the opportunity to the spys to chose where to place the ammo crate. But what ever.

Then please enlight me what you meant :)

The whole idea with the Random IPs is quite good.

Thank you.

Also will there be fixed number of the IPs possible or this will be different for each map?

Would depend on the mapper.

And when both 2v2 and 3v3 will be enabled, will there be 2v2 and 3v3 separated maps?

I don't really like forcing certain stuff, if people want to play a map best suit for 2vs2, with 3vs3, then they should be allowed to do that.

And will the users be able to create their own?

Ofcourse, we will supply players with a level editor... and a big fat manual ;D Though, don't expect to get it right after the first release, we first want a solid game.