Poll about changes in gameplay

[Overstatement]

The most common thing I see is cams because they give the spies an extra way to KO the merc. Everything else tends to vary considerably.

More than smoke and chaff? That is completely different from my experiences. I wish I could face spies that don't all play in roughly the same way. *sigh*

[Spekkio]

The only spy I know who doesn't take cams is Ducus (he also doesn't take smoke or chaff. His theory was that by not taking smoke/cams, he would make the mercs "waste" their equipment slot on gasmask). I sometimes drop them for something else if I find that I'm just not able to KO my opponents with them. Other than that, cams are a universal equipment item.

I wish I could face spies that don't all play in roughly the same way. *sigh*

Get on xfire and start adding people. Honestly, I've never seen you around so yea.

[Gui Brazil]

I don't use cams simply because its nuts for you to have it when you can't play on any server with less than 200 ping.

[Valserp]

I said nothing of the such. As you yourself said - your equipment only works if you use it right. Remember, all those analogies with grenades tazer and whatnot? You seem to quickly forget what you've said just a few posts ago.
If you put a poison mine next to a med-kit, it would be useless. If you put a laser mine in the middle of a huge room, where it can't kill a spy who trips the laser from the other side of the room - it's useless. Now for the punchline - if you put a lasermine on a doorway and a spy can still get through it without chaff - it would be useless.

How many times have you said that mines are useless unless placed in certain positions? What part of that am I misunderstanding?

You yourself said that you have to use your equipment properly in order to acieve success with it, no?
It is only common sense that a proxy mine in the middle of a huge room that the spies always tend to avoid will NOT be effective. It is only common sense that you would put these in chokepoints and generally in locations where the mine's blast radius will affect the spy. They won't be slowed down if they don't feel threatened by the mine, will they?
What part of that are you misunderstanding?

affirmative. i don't care about the size of the community, if there are enough great people around to have ggs. in fact, i prefer a smaller, more personal community to a mass event. nevertheless, it would be great if european and american people would play more together.

So this would be more, less or the same as the CT community at it's prime? You contradict yourself a lot so I wasn't sure.

Actually, I understood him perfectly. There is no contradiction in that post.

His first sentence said he wouldn't care, his second sentence said he would perfer to be small, his third sentence started with "nevertheless" which opposes the second.[/quote]

So english is not his primary english. Hey, Gawain, type your post out in german, see if he'll understand you then.

Now now, there is no need to put words in my mouth, we can all see that you are out of arguments anyway.
I didn't start this whole debate with you, nor have I ever stated anywhere in it, that mines should be restricted to specific spots. That is stupid to even think about and has next to nothing to do with what we were debating.
Let me remind you - you were saying that spies should be able to neuter any sort of smart mine placement without using any sort of gadget for themselves. They "deserve" that oppurtunity because they have already "seen the mine". Yes, those are your words.

I know you didn't directly say it but predictable mine positioning is a byproduct of certain positions being stronger than the rest.[/quote]

Read my above. It is only natural that traps and mines will be placed in tight quarters, corners and chokepoints. Because a mine does not kill a spy if they are running 50 meters away. Traps' lasers are also limited. Pressure detectors only detect spies at a 2-3 meter distance. It is only natural that they will all be placed in tight quarters. I know that I am repeating myself. Anyway, once a spy is familiar with a map, they would know where there are small rooms and chokepoints, to which mercs have access. Therefore it would be possible that they have trapped those places.
Once people become good at the game, every possible mine position(that is useful) becomes predictable. There is nothing wrong with that since the mines still retain their ability to slow spies down.


By the way, Spekkio and I are willing to play vs Overstatement and InvisibleMan999, or if you guys wish so, you will play seperately with your own friends. For our spy round, NONE of us will take neither chaff or smoke.

[frvge]

I got pwned 2 days ago with noob mines near the Spy's spawn point at Aqua. Really interesting.

[Spekkio]

By the way, Spekkio and I are willing to play vs Overstatement and InvisibleMan999, or if you guys wish so, you will play seperately with your own friends. For our spy round, NONE of us will take neither chaff or smoke.

Heh, I'm down for that. Don't forget Gawain, either.

[frvge]

If you want, I'll do a dedicated server, so I can watch both sides.
Of course, you'll need to accept the lag and extra bugs of the dedicated server thingy.

[Spekkio]

No thanks. Listen server plz.

[Valserp]

Gawain gets added to the challenge for making this thread.
We won't aggro.

[Overstatement]

You yourself said that you have to use your equipment properly in order to acieve success with it, no?
It is only common sense that a proxy mine in the middle of a huge room that the spies always tend to avoid will NOT be effective. It is only common sense that you would put these in chokepoints and generally in locations where the mine's blast radius will affect the spy. They won't be slowed down if they don't feel threatened by the mine, will they?
What part of that are you misunderstanding?

What I said was:

Valserp: The common argument you're using is that mines are too weak so let's put them in places that make them stronger (the ones spies can't shoot at from a certain direction).

Because what you said was:

anything with a laser becomes useless once you decide to NOT use it on doorways.

and

It's only logical that a spy would turn on heat vision before passing through every doorway there is

So spies would see every laser thing you put down and you think it they're useless if the spy doesn't need chaff to bring down those unshootable ones.

So english is not his primary english. Hey, Gawain, type your post out in german, see if he'll understand you then.

I wasn't trying to insult him. I was trying to get exactly where he wanted the size of the community because I was curious about his opinion.

Anyway, once a spy is familiar with a map, they would know where there are small rooms and chokepoints, to which mercs have access. Therefore it would be possible that they have trapped those places.
Once people become good at the game, every possible mine position(that is useful) becomes predictable. There is nothing wrong with that since the mines still retain their ability to slow spies down.

There are still some positions that suprise spies. Spekkio calls them "noob positions". If you look harder, you could probably find a few more.

By the way, Spekkio and I are willing to play vs Overstatement and InvisibleMan999, or if you guys wish so, you will play seperately with your own friends. For our spy round, NONE of us will take neither chaff or smoke.

Yeah, sure. I know we'll get owned because I've played Spekkio before. My partner doesn't play anymore either so I'm not sure how we could make this fair. Not sure it matters, I'd mostly be interested on how you would do without smoke and chaff.

But I am having problems with my computer being able to play games, including CT. If anyone has any ideas, PM me because I'd rather not have to reformat (yes, I have gotten the lastest drivers).
In Natural Selection or DoD(HL1 mods), frequently my controls appear stuck. For a second every minute or so (seems to happen most when I press more than one key), if I'm firing and moving forward, I lose control and I keep firing, unable to move the mouse and keep going forward.
In CT Versus, every 5 or so seconds, a frame takes a lot longer to render than the rest (like half to a full second).
Does not affect most other games like CT SP. Geforce4 TI4200 ("buy a new card" is not good technical advice).

[InvisibleMan999]

Yeah, sure. I know we'll get owned because I've played Spekkio before. My partner doesn't play anymore either so I'm not sure how we could make this fair. Not sure it matters, I'd mostly be interested on how you would do without smoke and chaff.

Yeah, pretty much. I play xbox CT most of the time now. I gave up on the PC version because of EAX and all seeing MT vision, which tends to be what all the pros use.

I didn't burn like $250 on an uber sound card so I can hear people activate camo across the level, nor do I have a particularly uber graphics card that displays High quality post render at maximum resolution, so yeah... I don't have much of a chance.

[Spekkio]

LoL...an audigy 2 zs is like $20 now. It was 50 when I bought it.

[Gawain]

By the way, Spekkio and I are willing to play vs Overstatement and InvisibleMan999, or if you guys wish so, you will play seperately with your own friends. For our spy round, NONE of us will take neither chaff or smoke.

Heh, I'm down for that. Don't forget Gawain, either.

hey cool  :D
i'd love to see some stealth (lol ironic: to see stealth). the only problem is, that im kinda out of training and i haven't played with my mate (nxr cromos) for some weeks...
but atm i'm working on a come-back :P  i did some tweaking with the default.ini and the drivers, and now i more than 50 fps, 1600*1200 resolution, and smoother aiming. let the laming begin XD
btw, i'm aware of the stealth possibilities that good maps like orph or factory offer, but i'd really be surprised if you could show me some stealth on museum, bank, aqua etc :D

[Valserp]

You yourself said that you have to use your equipment properly in order to acieve success with it, no?
It is only common sense that a proxy mine in the middle of a huge room that the spies always tend to avoid will NOT be effective. It is only common sense that you would put these in chokepoints and generally in locations where the mine's blast radius will affect the spy. They won't be slowed down if they don't feel threatened by the mine, will they?
What part of that are you misunderstanding?

What I said was:

Valserp: The common argument you're using is that mines are too weak so let's put them in places that make them stronger (the ones spies can't shoot at from a certain direction).

Because what you said was:

anything with a laser becomes useless once you decide to NOT use it on doorways.

and

It's only logical that a spy would turn on heat vision before passing through every doorway there is

So spies would see every laser thing you put down and you think it they're useless if the spy doesn't need chaff to bring down those unshootable ones.

So english is not his primary english. Hey, Gawain, type your post out in german, see if he'll understand you then.

I wasn't trying to insult him. I was trying to get exactly where he wanted the size of the community because I was curious about his opinion.

Anyway, once a spy is familiar with a map, they would know where there are small rooms and chokepoints, to which mercs have access. Therefore it would be possible that they have trapped those places.
Once people become good at the game, every possible mine position(that is useful) becomes predictable. There is nothing wrong with that since the mines still retain their ability to slow spies down.

There are still some positions that suprise spies. Spekkio calls them "noob positions". If you look harder, you could probably find a few more.

So yeah, I used doorways as the most common place for laser traps to be placed. It is a fact due to the close quarters etc etc etc AND because it's hard to remove without chaff.
Spies DO see 90% of your laser stuff. The rest 10% they either don't trip for the whole game or you actually manage to get a kill with them.

"Noob positions" can surprise a player but it's pretty much 50/50. They are those kind of positions that one would never place a mine because it would actually be ineffective. Therefore a spy does not expect that the merc would've wasted a mine at that spot. It's kinda reverse-psychology.

[Gawain]

i usually place 2 pro mines and 1 n00b mine, and guess what: the noob mine makes the same number of kills as the 2 pro mines together in most games. ;D
the trick is that you place them unpredictable and vary them all the time. but tbh, mines have only small use against pros, maybe i should try out traps again  ???