What if...

[Spark Mandriller]

I find it's hard to take you seriously when you've got that Avatar. JUST LOOK AT IT'S EYES!!!

It's bad to judge things by appearances you know.

[VaNilla]

Infinite visions have never been a problem, nor stated to be a problem until this thread was posted.

I don't understand how you expect people to take you seriously when you're saying shit like this.

I don't have any expectations, I'm just stating my opinion and that's all that matters to me unless you actually have an argument against it, which you don't. This has NEVER been a problem that people CARE about, I don't care if it's been talked about it because it's just not a problem, you can't link it to any balance issue or any cause of problems because it just isn't. I've NEVER seen a good argument for making visions limited.

[Spark Mandriller]

I don't have any expectations, I'm just stating my opinion and that's all that matters to me unless you actually have an argument against it, which you don't.

It's funny, because this is actually what you've been doing the whole thread. No arguments or anything, just I DON'T LIKE THIS IDEA IT'S BAD. Where are your arguments? Where do you give any reason why a time limit would be bad, other than completely nebulous claims that it would make the game less fun? I don't see any. Binary can manage to come up with reasons, he's talking about map design, he actually has a point. I don't agree with him, but I can see where he's coming from, and hey, maybe I'm wrong and he's right afterall. Why can't you come up reasons like he can?

This has NEVER been a problem that people CARE about, I don't care if it's been talked about it because it's just not a problem, you can't link it to any balance issue or any cause of problems because it just isn't.

People have been complaining about MT whoring for years. Years. You want me to go find some examples? I can if you want, it's not a problem. Not a problem.
Even if nobody had complained, so what? Were people required to wait a year after PT came out to complain about SS+jump? Were people required to wait a year to complain about instas? No. If something's a problem it's a problem. It's not a fucking wine, it doesn't need to be aged.

Seriously, nobody had a problem with vision spam? What are you going to come up with next? I can't even imagine.

[Farley4Fan]

Stone, MT whoring is something everyone hates.  Even MT whores.

[VaNilla]

It's funny, because this is actually what you've been doing the whole thread. No arguments or anything, just I DON'T LIKE THIS IDEA IT'S BAD. Where are your arguments? Where do you give any reason why a time limit would be bad, other than completely nebulous claims that it would make the game less fun? I don't see any. Binary can manage to come up with reasons, he's talking about map design, he actually has a point. I don't agree with him, but I can see where he's coming from, and hey, maybe I'm wrong and he's right afterall. Why can't you come up reasons like he can?

Oh really?

Why would you fix MT? The fact that some people leave MT on in Warehouse is because of the design of the map, and it doesn't really matter because you can counteract that as an advantage to yourself. Infinite visions have never been a problem, nor stated to be a problem until this thread was posted. It's only now that energy consumption has been suggested that people are pretending they ever cared. Also, you probably wouldn't keep MT/EMF on given that your view distance is reduced with them on.

As for anyone who thinks it's easy to implement, keep in mind all the balance issues it would create which would have to be solved. I don't even think it's a good idea, it's incredibly stupid to assume that they ever created imbalanced gameplay or problems for the player by being unlimited. As for keeping the visions 'special', since when did a timelimit make something 'special'? Sex is special, you don't see people wishing they had an energy consumption bar preventing them from taking advantage of the benefits ;). The timelimit serves no purpose, it doesn't do anything other than harm the gameplay. It's another bad, novelty idea that people think would improve gameplay but is actually completely pointless.

I realise that the last point in bold isn't necessarily a fact, but I implore you to offer me an opinion which supports the contrary. The only arguments to support a timelimit are that people can use them without repercussions, and that being unlimited makes visions less 'special'. I've already talked about the fact that the last point in my last post, but visions do have repercussions (such as EMF, decreased view distance, and more). I've yet to see someone offer a reasonable argument to support the idea, and my personal instinct is that the idea is pathetic and fuelled by a lack of sensibility. I've explained why.

People have been complaining about MT whoring for years. Years. You want me to go find some examples? I can if you want, it's not a problem. Not a problem.
Even if nobody had complained, so what? Were people required to wait a year after PT came out to complain about SS+jump? Were people required to wait a year to complain about instas? No. If something's a problem it's a problem. It's not a fucking wine, it doesn't need to be aged.

Seriously, nobody had a problem with vision spam? What are you going to come up with next? I can't even imagine.

Don't be a moron, don't twist my words. Obviously, it doesn't matter when the problem is suggessted if it IS a problem, but in THIS thread it's spoken about as if the problem has been relevant for years, when it hasn't, if ever. I don't disagree with the fact that MT whoring exists, but MT whoring isn't an issue because of the fact that you can use it for an unlimited amount of the time (and the number of people who suggest that is incredibly minor, compared to those who have the sense to open their minds). The issue people have had with MT in particular is actually that you're ABLE to whore it with little dis-advantage due to it's design (360 detection, night vision, etc). But that applies to PT/CT only.

[Cronky]

Let me just say again, guys.

I think the time limit combined (that can be changed) for visions that binary stated is the best option yet! ;D

Default time being dependent upon balancing when the beta comes out, but with the ability to be changed (as with match time limit) so that people that don't care about the possibility of "Whoring Visions" can just bump it up to either the match time limit, or Infinite. Much like how CT gave the option (on Xbox at least) to turn off Berserk. Default was on, but in case you wanted to play more like PT then you could do that easily. (In other words, easier ;))

Like stated before, this variation seems like the easiest to balance and easiest to work with without falling into situations like:

-I used X vision then ran into a Y then couldn't do Z (Very general I know)

or

-I accidentally used X vision and now I can't use another one... This is bullshit... This game sucks

While these are VERY tiny problems. They add up... like pennies. (Or whatever crazy currency you have where you are)

[Spark Mandriller]

Why would you fix MT? The fact that some people leave MT on in Warehouse is because of the design of the map, and it doesn't really matter because you can counteract that as an advantage to yourself.

Has nothing to do with a time limit.

Also, you probably wouldn't keep MT/EMF on given that your view distance is reduced with them on.

Has nothing to do with a time limit.

As for anyone who thinks it's easy to implement, keep in mind all the balance issues it would create which would have to be solved.

Has potential, but you kind of forgot to actually mention any of these balance issues, instead of just claiming they exist and leaving it at that.

As for keeping the visions 'special', since when did a timelimit make something 'special'? Sex is special, you don't see people wishing they had an energy consumption bar preventing them from taking advantage of the benefits ;).

This is just dumb.

The timelimit serves no purpose, it doesn't do anything other than harm the gameplay. It's another bad, novelty idea that people think would improve gameplay but is actually completely pointless.

No actual reason or evidence or support of any sort for your claim it's bad, but I guess you admit that, so yeah.

I don't disagree with the fact that MT whoring exists, but MT whoring isn't an issue because of the fact that you can use it for an unlimited amount of the time (and the number of people who suggest that is incredibly minor, compared to those who have the sense to open their minds).

Being able to leave it on 100% of the time is part of the issue. The night vision is part of the problem. The 360 degree detection is part of the problem. The infinite duration is also part of the problem. Trying to claim infinite duration isn't part of what makes MT broken is like trying to claim that the night vision doesn't help, and it's all just the 360 degree detection. Yeah, that on its own is good, but there are other things too.

Why am I even talking to you? You're just going to come up with more planet stone bullshit which makes no sense. I'm dumb.

[B1nArY_001]

Only thing further I'll say on the subject is: IF MT didn't have 360 detection radius and IF Spys who are stationary or moving at a slow crouch/walk are 100% invisible to someone using MT nullifying benefits of the NV effect then you could leave it on all day long and you'll do nothing but blind yourself to a smart Spy passing by right under your nose.

We have considered all of the issues MT had in PT and SCCT and taken appropriate steps to make sure it is no longer an issue.

[DreadStunLock]

We have considered all of the issues MT had in PT and SCCT and taken appropriate steps to make sure it is no longer an issue.

That the best quote ever. Thank you :P

[VaNilla]

Has nothing to do with a time limit.

I didn't bold the timelimit part of your post, so don't assume everything I'm saying is in response to that :). The point I was actually trying to get across is that you said I don't give reasons for my opinion, but I do.

Has potential, but you kind of forgot to actually mention any of these balance issues, instead of just claiming they exist and leaving it at that.

They've already been mentioned, there was no point in rehashing what's already been said.

Being able to leave it on 100% of the time is part of the issue. The night vision is part of the problem. The 360 degree detection is part of the problem. The infinite duration is also part of the problem. Trying to claim infinite duration isn't part of what makes MT broken is like trying to claim that the night vision doesn't help, and it's all just the 360 degree detection. Yeah, that on its own is good, but there are other things too.

Why am I even talking to you? You're just going to come up with more planet stone bullshit which makes no sense. I'm dumb.

Interesting, you complain that I don't offer reasons (such as about the balance issues) yet here all you say is that "The infinite duration is also part of the problem." I've stated that I don't think it is across all of my posts in this thread, and you still haven't convinced me. I haven't stated any "bullshit" in the thread either, maybe it's about time you start giving real, comprehensive reasons as to why infinite visions are actually a problem, and why limiting them would be advantageous without causing balance problems elsewhere. You should also realise that it's you who should be convincing me that the idea is worth implementing, it's not my job to defend what already works.

[Spark Mandriller]

Okay, right, yeah, you're right. People would have kept MT on 100% of the time even if there was a time limit so they couldn't keep it on all the time. Infinite duration on MT totally didn't help with MT whoring, people would have kept it on whenever they wanted anyway.

seriously dude

[Cronky]

maybe it's not about who is right... the problems with each side have been presented, i hope you can all see that if they simply "fix" MT to correlate to "bugless", then it would be cool... and also time limits have not been tested.

Shhhhhhhh...

This is much funner to read! It's when they stop talking about it that I'll have to jump in with some statement that is completely oblivious to the point that just got resolved.

[VaNilla]

Okay, right, yeah, you're right. People would have kept MT on 100% of the time even if there was a time limit so they couldn't keep it on all the time. Infinite duration on MT totally didn't help with MT whoring, people would have kept it on whenever they wanted anyway.

seriously dude

But what you don't seem to understand is that keeping MT on 100% of the time is disadvantageous, given the fact that you can't reap the benefits of either normal vision or EMF. That's why people DON'T keep it on 100% of the time, that's why the 'problem' of unlimited usage doesn't really exist.

[DreadStunLock]

Okay, right, yeah, you're right. People would have kept MT on 100% of the time even if there was a time limit so they couldn't keep it on all the time. Infinite duration on MT totally didn't help with MT whoring, people would have kept it on whenever they wanted anyway.

seriously dude

But what you don't seem to understand is that keeping MT on 100% of the time is disadvantageous, given the fact that you can't reap the benefits of either normal vision or EMF. That's why people DON'T keep it on 100% of the time, that's why the 'problem' of unlimited usage doesn't really exist.

Amen

[Spark Mandriller]

Hey Stone, you ever heard of people being called MT whores? Why don't you guess why they're called that? I'll give you a hint, it's not because they stay in EMF all game.