New Design Techniques For Maps

[Farley4Fan]

I think a few things that should be changed/fixed about the design of maps should be discussed.

- Less flat maps, meaning there are hills and depressions in the floor.  When you look at the main floor of maps in CT they tend to be really flat, meaning there is no change in elevation like hills or holes in it.

- A little more vertical style maps, or maybe just a few vertical maps.  ( Think really tall maps with lots of stairs/elevators... )

- Darker designed maps.  IMO CT's maps weren't dark enough, cover was a lot more useful than shadows in most of them.

- More destructible environment if possible.  Destructible lighting, destructible railing ( maybe ), destructible thin walls or ceilings ( blow big holes through them will grenades ).

- More glass, glass has always been fun in the places that it is in.  It is funny seeing a teammate on the other side and they can't get you lol ( club house outside of the glass structure   ;D)  Possibly you could do tinted windows or one sided mirror, that would be freaking fun!  More mirrors, they could prove useful as merc and spy ( easy to check behind you when you look into a mirror, it would also be kind of confusing and funny as well.  What if there were a bunch of mirrors and a merc charged a reflection of a spy lol )

- Water maybe?  Shoot water in a merc's face and it sort of blurs his vision? 

- Bigger layouts, bigger maps with more open rooms linked by close encounter hallways.

- More variety, it really ruins the experience of a map when you see the same box milions of times in one minute.



Other than that I can't really think of any other changes that I would like to see with Project Stealth's maps.

What do you think?  What changes/fixes/additions would you like to see?

[Spekkio]

I agree with many of your points. Something Ducus observed a while ago in CT is that the CT maps have "less stuff to climb on" than PT maps. Every PT map has poles, boxes, ceilings, etc where you can get the drop on the merc. River Mall and Museum are the only "flat" maps from PT. It's partly why I think the PT maps are much better than CT maps on the whole.

Some of the stuff though, like bigger maps, isn't necessary. Bigger =/= better. If you want to see what a map that's too big is like, go play UMP Vertigo Classic.

[B1nArY_001]

Hmmm... Forget the water in the face. Make it so you can shock a puddle and if the merc is standing in it... ZAP!

[Farley4Fan]

The water thing was just an idea I had, I was brainstorming lol.  But another thing I would like to see is more interactivity ( shooting a puddle with a merc in it shocks him, light switches, more passageways or poles to climb on, stuff like that. Tinted windows would be sweet!  Imagine watching a merc that couldn't see you through the glass, then breaking it and grabbing his neck!  Wouldn't that rock?! )

[InvisibleMan999]

- Darker designed maps.  IMO CT's maps weren't dark enough, cover was a lot more useful than shadows in most of them.

Yeah, we definitely need more darkness. One thing I actually liked about double agent was the amount of darkness in the game. You could really make a room super dark in DA.

- More destructible environment if possible.  Destructible lighting, destructible railing ( maybe ), destructible thin walls or ceilings ( blow big holes through them will grenades ).
[/QUOTE}

Destructible lighting has to be permanently destructible, otherwise it does nothing. think about the lightning in river mall that you can shoot temporarily. It's pretty pointless.

Another thing I'd like to see more of are reversible hacks, like the stuff in river mall. It's really cool to create secondary objectives like that, and things that force the mercs to break their patrol route to fix. 

[Gawain]

i agree with most points of papa and spekkio, especially with more interactivity and darkness.
the water idea sucks.
i don't want more maps like factory though. and i don't want more stuff to climb at, rather more split jump places.
another thing i hate are ventilation shafts. it takes every possibility to interact with the spies there. furthermore, guessing where the spy might go after going into a vent is really gay, and so is confining. don't get me wrong, vents leading from the spawn to several places on the map are necessary as there is only one spawn point atm and it's a stealth game. solutions like the ceiling in museum cafe or orph 2nd floor dormatory-wash are ok.

darkness in scda? i could see everything in the shadows, kinda weird...

[Daybreak]

Map design will be a big thing this time around. As the levels can get pretty detailed. In CT and PT the engine is pretty tame and the levels weren't very detailed. Take a look at most MP maps now a days. It's full of detail and destructable environments. These are somethings we should be looking at.

Another concern of mine are the maps themselves. I think we really need to step up the ante for maps. While offices, and warehouses might work we really need to diversify the maps. More outdoor maps are needed, and you might hate me but Light maps, if done correctly could look real nice. Maybe I've just been playing the same maps for too long. I dunno.

We also need to think differently about how the map could start. Ie: Multiple spawn points for spies like what's his face said. Complete access like the abilty to come from anywhere and not just a "spawn point". 3vs1 maps are something I was thinking of toying with in CT as well. Even making random objective points. Sure they can't be completely random for balance sake, but a couple variations would be cool considering the map could play differently everytime you play. Similar to the random lasers in PT. Thinking out side of the box will make this game seem new and refreshing, while still keep the core gameplay. It'll be in our map designs if this game fails or succeeds.

[Bionic-Blob]

- Less flat maps, meaning there are hills and depressions in the floor.  When you look at the main floor of maps in CT they tend to be really flat, meaning there is no change in elevation like hills or holes in it.

yeh, i think that was becuase of a game limitation (think about how impossible it is to grab someone while on stairs)

[Farley4Fan]

THe style of Club House is IMO the best style you could have.  Not the darkness level or anything like that, but the way that big open rooms are linked by narrow corridors for close encounters.  I love how you can sneak past an open room and have limitless possibilities to get through it, but when you get to the narrow corridors in calls for close and sudden encounters.  If all maps were designed this way it would be awesome.  Of course we would have to have some variations in the maps rather than just all Club House layout. 

What do you think about vertical maps?  Say just like the inside of station, but there are more than 2 or 3 floors, more like 5 or 6.  It would make the rooms smaller and less wide, but more of them.  It would be a good variation in the style in my opinion.  Think of Museum's bombing rooms like Exhibition, open rooms and vertical.  Just make exhibition taller and darker and it would be a interesting concept of a map.  ;D

What about indentation in flooring?  Say a big hole in the ground or a big hill?

[Gawain]

club house gameplay sucks compared to orphanage/steel squat/factory, as it's all about switching floors and aggroeing garden.
big rooms are a sniper's, mt and camnet paradise - i feel more safe in the corridors than in hall or garden.

multiple spawn points could be a good idea if they're implemented correctly. it could be hard to organize the defense if the spies can come from any direction...
outside areas sound fun, maybe we could make some moving stuff like a train passing and therefore closing a way for some seconds etc.

[Farley4Fan]

Imagine if the club house was darker and motion tracker was less powerful.  I think that gameplay would be better than steel squat.  Orphanage and factory gameplay is how PS should be: darker rooms, a lot of little narrow corridors linking bigger and more open rooms together.

[InvisibleMan999]

I personally hate steel squat.

It's just a frag whore paradise. Anywhere you are, you can practically always get killed by a bouncing nade, and if done right, you have very little time to react to it, since they bounce through windows and kill you before you can dive away. There are the shutters you can hack, but they don't stay closed for nearly long enough. You can't even hear the grenades coming, so you're reduced to a guessing game where you try to guess when the frag is coming through the window. Uggg... yeah that map sucks. It's one instance where you might really need EAX super hearing, because otherwise you'll never hear the grenade launch in time to escape. 

As far as basic map layout, I personally like the river mall setup (without the holo sensor). Factory, orphanage and clubhouse are also pretty nice too. The PT version of museum would be good if they cut the static defense some. Hospital and Cinema are also nice.

I think almost all maps could benefit from less light though, except for maybe Orphanage (that's dark enough). The lighting doesn't have to be always dark, but a reversible hack to dim the lights would be cool.

[Gawain]

suggestions for museum: add motion sensors that close the doors and block the laptops (especially at elevator, storage, cafe inside), reduce hacking and bomb time about 1 second, make the map way darker.

on steel, hacking shutters and crane is crucial. the best way to avoid being fragged or sniped is simply not hacking more than 2-3 seconds if your mate isn't covering (using spy bullets is also important).

on hospital the only covering strategy with some winning potential i know is giving up all objectives on the 1st floor and camp on the 2nd.

[Spekkio]

Multiple spawn points are bad because the balance of the map can change dramatically with the luck of the draw. Also, knowing that a merc will undoubtedly spawn at a particular place can change whether you choose to neck him or KO him. For example, in Cinema I know that the merc respawns inbetween Cafe/VG 100% of the time. If I get a grab on a merc in lobby, and my partner is in the back ready to get that last objective, I'm probably going to just KO the merc. I don't want him respawning in the back to instantly be in position to help his partner with a fresh set of equipment. Likewise, if you get a grab on the first floor in Orphanage while the bomb is ticking, it's better to KO the merc because he respawns on the second floor.

As for map design, I find it funny that Papa wants maps that are "less flat," but then goes on to praise Club House and Museum, two of the flattest maps in the game. Club House is a well-balanced map, but Gawain is right: the meta-game on Club has evolved into a shock-and-run fest. All the mine spots are exhausted, so people can just spam chaff that works through walls wherever they think a mine might be. Steel Squat is the exact same way: most of the time is spent running around staying a step ahead of the mercs. Not only that, it's one-sided because you can easily snipe into the spy side building even when the shutters are hacked. This means a lot of people, myself included, will choose to just focus on locking down the spy side and not so much on the merc side.

Likewise, while Orphanage is a well-balanced map, it relies too much on the initial rush to each floor. This is particularly true if you get Canteen, and when the attic opens up.

I think that Cinema and Schermerhorn are the best maps design-wise because they have multiple ambush locations for grabbing, camming, and jumping on mercs, lots of shadows, adequate security, and have cool themes.

[Daybreak]

You guys are probably right about the multiple spaw points, but it's the point of thinking irregularly. I think multiple objective locations, ie changing should be something to look into and see if it can be done. This would make spies have to do a little recon, or at least a different game plan upon starting the game.