modified gadgets...

[InvisibleMan999]

I mostly agree there (except the flashlight and low-res part), but Kebab wants to keep all that and give the mercs an ability to place them anywhere. The problem with making camo a hard counter to camnet is that neither side knows what gadgets they're taking beforehand. What if you don't ordinarilly use camo, but take it in anticipation that most mercs use camnet? Then what if he doesn't actually have camnet? Gadgets shouldn't be picked based upon whether or not they're going to be a hard-counter for the other team's equipment; they should be chosen based upon your play style and how you tend to approach the game.

Well, it's not as if camnet is unbeatable without camo. Going with a passive agressive setup, it's easy to bypass camnet when you've got one spy being obvious and running interference, because mercs can't really look at camnet very well when a spy is shocking and droping nades on them.

Similarly, going straight aggro ignores camnet.

As far as any stealth setup, going camo is probably going to be a pretty staple gadget there.

Either that, or you get into the "must have" situation that we have with CT when it comes to the gasmask. See, you can choose not to take the gasmask, which is a hard counter to both cams and smoke. However, if you don't take mask you put yourself at risk for easy KOs, plus you slow down to a crawl in the smoke grenade cloud. The risk of not taking mask is not worth the reward of having another gadget. If camnet becomes or remains uber in PS, you create a situation where everyone practically must take camo to get around it.

Well, the difference is that I think camnet gets worse when you can't depend on it. If you know the spies might have camo, or even one of them has camo, you can't afford to completely rely on camnet to solve all your problems.

The thing with gas mask is that it's not a strong enough counter to prevent people from taking cams or smoke, because they're just plain useful anyway. The camo/camnet setup creates a sort of flip flop issue where the more spies take camo, the less mercs take camnet and vice versa. I think that'll probably be good enough as a balancing mechanic. If camnet is super dominant in a match, or you're just playing a bunch of camnet whores, you can bet the spies take camo and that balances the problem out, so long as camo is a strong enough counter. That's really why I suggested the low res display, just so that you're certain that the merc can't see camoed spies at all, since under the current view you can still barely see camo movement even zoomed out.

A low res display (I'm thinking the same resolution as a standard definition TV), would basically ensure that camnet can spot spies who are careless, but you should be able to sneak by.

I still don't think camnet is overall a good gadget for the game. Someone on the ubi.com boards made a post about how it'd be cool to look through the cameras on the map in PT and Ubi created camnet for CT. Some ideas are just better left on the drawing board. Personally, I like the feel of actually going out to hunt and finding spies rather than just using a camera network to know exactly where they're coming from. But, if you're gonna play to win, camnet's your 'man', so to speak.

Well I think camnet is a pretty cool idea, and I don't feel its inherently unbalanced. In fact, I think it showcases a few problems with map design.

The camnet should be placed in areas such that you can avoid them. If there's no path that bypasses the camnet (whether by travelling in shadows or through vents or side routes), the camnet location is probably too good.

But really, some camnets are fairly easy to replicate by just having a merc stand there. For instance the river mall lobby cam is just about the same as a merc standing on the rail up there and overlooking it. I think it's more a problem with map design that that's so hard to bypass. There needs to be more shadows or something. Or maybe that second floor music shop vent shouldn't have a see through gate, and should just be a plain wall.

Deftech needs way more shadows on that outside area.

I'm pretty convinced we can balance camnet and have it be at least reasonably useful without totally destroying the game.

Another idea to nerf camnet is to include a natural panning motion (not user controllable), similar to normal passive defense cameras. So that a spy can slip by while the camera is panned the other way if he's cautious. We may also want to implement some kind of tunnel vision to camnet too, so it doesn't have the same width as a normal merc view, just to narrow its cone of sight.

[B1nArY_001]

Every thought voiced as a concern about balance has a relatively easy answer and quite a few of the concerns are making the assumption that the gadget will just be thrown in with no testing and no real restrictions placed on the device. Give us a little credit here. We're not morons.

Edit: Don't forget there will be plenty of testing in which everything will be exploited to the fullest to make sure it is not overpowered.

[monterto]

take note the reason why i have changed names , but also enhanced functionality.

Bots:  emits sounds that set off merc reticle.....

-very small,  and when shot on to a surface will immedietly move acrossed surface in a random direction to set off sounds from a different location

-if shot onto a security device,  will behave a like a parasite and continuously set off that device


BioSensor  :  attached to Spy tazer,  when tazer is active,  all living entities will glow,  they not only appear on radar,  but glow through walls ,  Bio sensor only works within field of view of the spy.

Bug: similar size to bots,  but behave exactly like the biosensor by lighting up  all nearby lifeforms, allowing to see them through walls.  It is possible to attach these to lifeforms in order to track their movements.

WiFi :  Merc has the ability to log into security network wirelessly,  allowing him to view any cameras in the network.  Cameras come in 2 standards.  1.  Native networks,  these are passive and cannot be controlled and lack any enhanced visions.  2.  Hi level networks,  uses the same technology the merc posseses and with shock resistent armor.  Hi level networks are established via Cam Grenades which are launched from the weapon.  they can still be destroyed from explosives.

Phosphorous Grenades:  emit bright and intense light upon explosion, but also the substance sticks to the surface and burns for several seconds,  causing severe burns to anyone that touches it.

All good, but they need bad ass acronyms example wifi = AIDS: Automated Intruder Detection System

now everyone will be afraid of AIDS...

i kinda like the idea of a better visualization with enhanced reality ghosts, it helps using hbs and sbs more effectively.
snares moving randomly is a totally new gadget. perhaps there should be some modes for snares: the way we already know, but with adjustable occurrance and volume of noises, and a second one that works for a shorter period of time but is moving randomly (maybe flying?; maybe setting off mtv?). it may also be interesting if there was the possibility to remotely activate/deactivate them. perhaps there should be two different gadgets. atm snares are almost only used (by good players) as a counter to eax superhearing, because they can be identified too easily.
phosphorous nades should work in some way spekkio or me have suggested in other threads.

I like the idea of multiple setting for "snares" perhaps the ability to remote trigger them to make noises using a designated key, example press N and it'll make noise for 3 seconds then stop, maybe you can do this like... 1-3 times? i dunno just thinking...

[Spekkio]

I'm pretty convinced we can balance camnet and have it be at least reasonably useful without totally destroying the game.

It's not a matter of whether or not it can be done -- nearly anything can be done. It's a matter of whether or not it's worth it. Seriously, I think you guys are vastly underestimating the work that is going to go into balancing this single gadget considering that Ubi couldn't get it right on the vast majority of their maps. On top of that, people are going to have to design their maps around this gadget, and striking that perfect balance between uber camnet and useless camnet along with all the other defenses is going to be insanely difficult.

[InvisibleMan999]

It's not a matter of whether or not it can be done -- nearly anything can be done. It's a matter of whether or not it's worth it. Seriously, I think you guys are vastly underestimating the work that is going to go into balancing this single gadget considering that Ubi couldn't get it right on the vast majority of their maps. On top of that, people are going to have to design their maps around this gadget, and striking that perfect balance between uber camnet and useless camnet along with all the other defenses is going to be insanely difficult.

You might be right. Though really, designing a map for this game is a very difficult process anyway, so I'm not sure camnet makes that huge of a difference. Still, seeing as bad camnet locations can break a map (rivermall is probably the best example). It may be best to err on the side of caution and not include camnet.

Still though, I don't see it being a huge deal if we can implement camnet in such a way that camo can always sneak by undetected.

[Gawain]

camnet can be balanced by good map design and some restrictions on it (automatic movement pattern, small vision cone, low res, battery timer etc etc). if it's too much expense for the map designer, he can just leave out camnet on his particualar map.

[Farley4Fan]

I lol'd at the AIDS thing haha.  :D

If you look at the CT maps, you can see that most of them are quite balanced because you can't see in vents or passageways that spies usually use.  But every once in a while you will get an uncareful spy that you see on your camnet, that is how camnet should be anyways imo.

[Gawain]

camnet is supposed to help you cover maps that are just a little bit too big/complex to cover with patrols only. there are two (of the good maps, i totally don't care about aqua, ware, deftech...) maps where camnet is a pain in the ass: river mall and factory. river mall can easily be fixed just by removing camnet from the hologram room, whereas the central camping point aka corridor B is the main problem. without camnet it's balanced, because you are effectively blind in/around there and have to patrol.

edit:
got a balancing idea that could easily applied to maps: no radio reception in some areas (like 20m around all corridors on factory).

[Farley4Fan]

what do you mean radio reception?  Like voice communication goes out?

[InvisibleMan999]

what do you mean radio reception?  Like voice communication goes out?

I figure he meant that the camnet tool doesn't work.

[Farley4Fan]

Well that makes sense then lol

[MulleDK19]

Not glue-cam? :'(

[MulleDK19]

Hey. Sorry. Couldn't edit my previous post, since I'm on my Nokia mobile phone, and the forum has a simple mobile layout. Anyway.

The camnet, is a surveillance system, right? So why don't we call it Survey? LOL

Sorry, but I'm really bored at school :P

See you later! (Auch... A long message on a mobile phone keypad >.<)