Camnet

[Spekkio]

I was just having a discussion with Mr.Mic about this. I believe the following premises to be true:

1. Camnet and map security cannot be balanced properly while camnet is a selectable gadget. Either camnet is too powerful paired with the map's security, which forces aggro (eg. Factory, Mall, Station), or camnet is a waste and not worth the slot it takes up (eg: Missile Strike, Warehouse, Steel Squat).

*NOTE: It is probably a given that camnet in PS will not have MT/EMF available, but I still believe that this problem will persist.

2. The fact that camnet is just "there" and cannot be disabled while it's being used is lame. Say what you will, but the mercs will always be able to find a relatively safe spot in the map to use this gadget with impunity.

3. Looking through camnet is probably very boring for most players. While I do use camnet because it is an extremely useful tool on many maps, I find that using spy traps and actively seeking spies is much more fun. If spy traps weren't able to be removed by the spy's teammate, I'd probably use them exclusively. If you look at professional reviews of CT's multiplayer, you will see that "downtime" is something that they criticize. Camnet just increases that downtime.

Now, premise number 1 and 2 could possibly be averted by making camnet/camo inherent gadgets. That is why I am for that pairing much moreso than mask/cams, or giving 5 slots outright. But two mercs cycling through camnet is that much more efficient, and premise number 3 is going to always be there, even moreso if camnet becomes a free gadget because the mercs will have to use it to find spies.

Mr.Mic believes that camnet should be removed in favor of a new gadget. While camnet as a freebee might help these problems, I can't say I completely disagree with Mr.Mic.

Discuss.

[frvge]

The question is:
Do Mercs need an omni-present recon device?
If yes, what should be the weaknesses and in what form would it be? You can think of the Flyer Drone fro ETQW. Bit like the drone in SCDA. FLying might be too powerful, so maybe a deployable robot. Which can be shocked to overload/kill it.

[Farley4Fan]

I like the robot idea, but make it able to climb walls so you can go into vents to see if spies are there or not.  Of course it would have to have a range like 80 ft or so, and not able to go near spy spawns.  Possibly giving it a small tazer would be cool, kind of like r2d2 lol...

I still don't like permanet camnet that much, I'd much rather choose my gadget.

[Gawain]

cycling through camnet (and especially helping my mate keeping the overview in a fight) is more entertaining for me than running around the map to set up traps. with no visions and camo more present you will also have to scan suspicious areas with flashlight/laser. the only thing i'm worried about is two mercs with camnet so that going aggro on one merc won't help against it. so how about only one merc can take camnet (visible on the model)? how about not giving central camping areas like corridor B with any radio reception? the camnet spots don't have to be that awesome if camnet is on your eq no matter what.
i also like to see more moving cams which can be bypassed by timing.

[Spekkio]

So you believe premise 3 to be false. You have said nothing of premise 1 and 2, then add a line that you'd like to see more cameras that can be bypassed with good timing.

[Overstatement]

I'm not sure how this fits with your points but make switching between cams take a few seconds, alerting the spy and giving him a chance to hide. Non-attentive spies won't be looking at the camera and miss the warning so it won't make camnet completely useless.

[Gawain]

So you believe premise 3 to be false. You have said nothing of premise 1 and 2, then add a line that you'd like to see more cameras that can be bypassed with good timing.

i suggested mask+camnet/camo as permanent gadgets in another thread; i simply forgot to add it in this context. with camnet for both mercs being lame, i suggest mask for both and camnet for only one of them.
you can't "disable" camnet diretly, but you can use camo or occupy the merc using it. it should be possible to find the right balance with good map design. maybe the dust of the sticky cam should have less transparancy so that it could be used against camnet, too.

[Spekkio]

So you believe premise 3 to be false. You have said nothing of premise 1 and 2, then add a line that you'd like to see more cameras that can be bypassed with good timing.

i suggested mask+camnet/camo as permanent gadgets in another thread; i simply forgot to add it in this context. with camnet for both mercs being lame, i suggest mask for both and camnet for only one of them.
you can't "disable" camnet diretly, but you can use camo or occupy the merc using it. it should be possible to find the right balance with good map design. maybe the dust of the sticky cam should have less transparancy so that it could be used against camnet, too.

I don't like the idea of forcing mask, and I like the idea of forcing 2 equipment items even less. Like I said, if the merc takes mask and the spies decide not to take smoke/cams, nothing happens. Furthermore, it's not like the spies have a hard counter for masks. Adding camo/camnet has a counter dynamic, but the counters are always going to be there. There's no guessing game before you enter the game on whether or not you're taking the right equip.

[DrKennethNoisewater]

a few alternatives:

1. some sort of HB sensor for mercs, obv wouldn't show where the spy is like the spy HB, but would prob work much like in DA, only not all the time...

2. give the mercs the ability to set up perimeter beckons, something like a spy trap set to the other setting (forget the name atm). actually, it would work more like this: each merc gets, let's say, 3 beckons. they would be shaped like little poles, maybe 2 feet high. each beckon will do a cross scan with one another to hone in on a spy. now, whether or not that shows a dot on the HUD, or gives a heart beat, or sets off a sound on the reticle- i don't know. i'm thinking they'll work kind of like how a satellite triangulates a location.

3.  allow the mercs to use the security cams like cam net (meaning merc can use access them from anywhere). keep it so the cams scan, meaning merc can't control that. and maybe keep it so spy can shoot them out. this one i'd maybe even make it so it doesn't cause a security alarm when the spy is seen. for example: spy gets seen by camera, no loud beeping or alarm count like in CT. rather, the camera would aim at the spy and the merc would get a little beep or something notifying that a camera has seen a spy. the merc would have to find the correct camera and the spy would have enough time to get out of sight. i would say when the merc finds the right camera, the outer edge of the screen should flash red. this way, if the spy got out of the picture, the merc would have an idea of where to search.

just some food for thought, i hope this doesn't all get over looked :( now, in the words of mike myers

discuss

[Farley4Fan]

I think that, like suggested above, you should be able to see through security cameras as well.  I also think that there should be some sort of panel that disables cameras, all cameras, not just camnet cameras, for about 1 minute or so.  The panel would take about 12 seconds to hack into, but the panel would be in a high risk area, meaning that it isn't that easy for them to get to.  This idea would only even be important if camnet were a permanent gadget, like some people are suggesting, which I hope it isn't.  But if it is, then there should be some way to be able to disable cameras.  Like the already suggested standing on shoulders coop move to disable cameras.  It would take like 3 seconds to disable an individual camera.

[InvisibleMan999]

1. Camnet and map security cannot be balanced properly while camnet is a selectable gadget. Either camnet is too powerful paired with the map's security, which forces aggro (eg. Factory, Mall, Station), or camnet is a waste and not worth the slot it takes up (eg: Missile Strike, Warehouse, Steel Squat).

This is true for a lot of CT maps, but not necessarily true for maps in general, I think it's possible to build a map that takes camnet into consideration.

Camnet on river mall might not even be that bad if it wasn't in that hologram room.

2. The fact that camnet is just "there" and cannot be disabled while it's being used is lame. Say what you will, but the mercs will always be able to find a relatively safe spot in the map to use this gadget with impunity.

I'm not sure exactly how you want to disable camnet. If the spies could shock it with the SS to temporarily knock it out, so it just shows static, I guess that'd be ok. But taking out the camnet is the equivalent of giving away your position to some degree.

3. Looking through camnet is probably very boring for most players. While I do use camnet because it is an extremely useful tool on many maps, I find that using spy traps and actively seeking spies is much more fun. If spy traps weren't able to be removed by the spy's teammate, I'd probably use them exclusively. If you look at professional reviews of CT's multiplayer, you will see that "downtime" is something that they criticize. Camnet just increases that downtime.

If anything camnet kind of decreases the downtime or at least makes it feel like you can do more than just wander the map haphazardly waiting for spies to appear.

[Westfall]

3.  allow the mercs to use the security cams like cam net (meaning merc can use access them from anywhere). keep it so the cams scan, meaning merc can't control that. and maybe keep it so spy can shoot them out. this one i'd maybe even make it so it doesn't cause a security alarm when the spy is seen. for example: spy gets seen by camera, no loud beeping or alarm count like in CT. rather, the camera would aim at the spy and the merc would get a little beep or something notifying that a camera has seen a spy. the merc would have to find the correct camera and the spy would have enough time to get out of sight. i would say when the merc finds the right camera, the outer edge of the screen should flash red. this way, if the spy got out of the picture, the merc would have an idea of where to search.

Pretty much the best alternative for camnet. Why you ask? Because the camnet shows an entire room, where as the security cams only show a certain area.

[Gawain]

3.  allow the mercs to use the security cams like cam net (meaning merc can use access them from anywhere). keep it so the cams scan, meaning merc can't control that. and maybe keep it so spy can shoot them out. this one i'd maybe even make it so it doesn't cause a security alarm when the spy is seen. for example: spy gets seen by camera, no loud beeping or alarm count like in CT. rather, the camera would aim at the spy and the merc would get a little beep or something notifying that a camera has seen a spy. the merc would have to find the correct camera and the spy would have enough time to get out of sight. i would say when the merc finds the right camera, the outer edge of the screen should flash red. this way, if the spy got out of the picture, the merc would have an idea of where to search.

Pretty much the best alternative for camnet. Why you ask? Because the camnet shows an entire room, where as the security cams only show a certain area.

the notification and freeze is a stupid idea. valserp summarized it well on sclamers:

Mercs can view regular cameras whenever they wish. They can't move the camera manually, they have to watch the whole left-to-right routine.

Cameras do not activate alarms - they are there simply to give mercs eyes all over the map.

Cameras have a little red light that shows if merc is looking through it.

Spies can shoot cameras out.

the fov should be small enough to allow sneaking past the moving cam with the proper timing.

[DrKennethNoisewater]

^flame on homo

[Spekkio]

3.  allow the mercs to use the security cams like cam net (meaning merc can use access them from anywhere). keep it so the cams scan, meaning merc can't control that. and maybe keep it so spy can shoot them out. this one i'd maybe even make it so it doesn't cause a security alarm when the spy is seen. for example: spy gets seen by camera, no loud beeping or alarm count like in CT. rather, the camera would aim at the spy and the merc would get a little beep or something notifying that a camera has seen a spy. the merc would have to find the correct camera and the spy would have enough time to get out of sight. i would say when the merc finds the right camera, the outer edge of the screen should flash red. this way, if the spy got out of the picture, the merc would have an idea of where to search.

Pretty much the best alternative for camnet. Why you ask? Because the camnet shows an entire room, where as the security cams only show a certain area.

I think this is a poor alternative to camnet. It pretty much takes security cams as a passive defense out of the game.