The Assault Rifle Discussion

[InvisibleMan999]

Yes, how easy the spies have it. The mercs cannot physically cover all the windows and the shutter hacks with grenades simultaneously. If you get the crane hack, then you just keep hitting up the double shutter hack toward the disk.

How about you don't just hack an objective like an idiot when you know a merc is watching? Or if you know a grenade is coming, just assume that it is and get off the hack in 1 second? Mercs DO have a limited amount of frags, you know.

Merc is watching? They can fire nades from the center of the level? Yeah, there's always going to be a merc near there. As far as assuming the nade is coming and running, that basically means you get no actual hacking time done. And then the mercs partner comes up and blows your head off while you're dancing around trying to get the other guy to waste frags.

As far as a limited amount of frags, they've got 8 frags each (assuming dual backpack). If they hold their frags specifically for anti-hack, which you know, good mercs will, they can keep you from hacking for a really long time. And that doesn't even count suiciding for more frags.

Trust me, it's an entirely different map without EAX.

[kronf]

I don't have eax and I don't have any problems you mentioned. I CAN hear the nades without eax and I have no problems escaping. If you get to a hack silently your optimal hacking time is 2 seconds before merc will be able to react.
I think that what you mentioned might be related to the slow xbox controls.

[Guggle]

True, if you add these small new modifications, it could change the game more than desired, and impact the scale of skilled and new people, With the entire stronger bullets and stuff. Not necessary    :D. Stay kewl.

[Farley4Fan]

Yes, how easy the spies have it. The mercs cannot physically cover all the windows and the shutter hacks with grenades simultaneously. If you get the crane hack, then you just keep hitting up the double shutter hack toward the disk.

How about you don't just hack an objective like an idiot when you know a merc is watching? Or if you know a grenade is coming, just assume that it is and get off the hack in 1 second? Mercs DO have a limited amount of frags, you know.

Merc is watching? They can fire nades from the center of the level? Yeah, there's always going to be a merc near there. As far as assuming the nade is coming and running, that basically means you get no actual hacking time done. And then the mercs partner comes up and blows your head off while you're dancing around trying to get the other guy to waste frags.

As far as a limited amount of frags, they've got 8 frags each (assuming dual backpack). If they hold their frags specifically for anti-hack, which you know, good mercs will, they can keep you from hacking for a really long time. And that doesn't even count suiciding for more frags.

Trust me, it's an entirely different map without EAX.

100% true Invisible... If you could hear frags then it wouldn't be so difficult.  But, if you can't hear them at far distances, as soon as you see it pop into the window frame you ARE dead.  Limited frags?  Please...  24 frags per merc (8x3) so 48 frags total.  48 frags for 8 easy kills.  That's basically all it is on steel squat.  Even if you do get the crane, you still have to get atleast 3 objectives.  It's not as impossible as you make it sound to guard the panels and still be able to throw nades into windows at the same time.  This map is one of the reasons I suggested some way to be able to counter frags - chaff disabling frags was one of them.

And guggle, who said stronger bullets?  I only suggested stronger bullets for burst but that is balanced by the fact that it has a low ROF.  If that's what you were talking about of course.

[Gawain]

papa, you are in no position to talk about balance. and i didn't mean to make the map more open, but to add more obstacles that require to first walk to certain nading points which takes more time, stuff like that.
listen to kronf, simply don't hack one objective longer than 2s. spekkio is also right that most players start hacking the spy-side objectives and crane too late.

if there are balanced maps, it's definitely steel and club.

[Spekkio]

if there are balanced maps, it's definitely steel and club.

I highly disagree. Two of the easiest spy maps in the game.

easy spy (order of difficulty from left to right):

cinema, hospital, squat, vertigo, club, krauser, orphanage

medium spy (order of difficulty form left to right):

factory, mall, museum, aquarius, schermerhorn

Almost impossible spy (order of difficulty from left to right):

Station, Bank, Warehouse, Missile, Deftech

[Spekkio]

Yes, how easy the spies have it. The mercs cannot physically cover all the windows and the shutter hacks with grenades simultaneously. If you get the crane hack, then you just keep hitting up the double shutter hack toward the disk.

How about you don't just hack an objective like an idiot when you know a merc is watching? Or if you know a grenade is coming, just assume that it is and get off the hack in 1 second? Mercs DO have a limited amount of frags, you know.

Merc is watching? They can fire nades from the center of the level? Yeah, there's always going to be a merc near there. As far as assuming the nade is coming and running, that basically means you get no actual hacking time done. And then the mercs partner comes up and blows your head off while you're dancing around trying to get the other guy to waste frags.

As far as a limited amount of frags, they've got 8 frags each (assuming dual backpack). If they hold their frags specifically for anti-hack, which you know, good mercs will, they can keep you from hacking for a really long time. And that doesn't even count suiciding for more frags.

Trust me, it's an entirely different map without EAX.

Again, there is no way the merc can cover all the objectives AND the shutter hacks at the same time, even with grenades. If you stand by the merc shutter hack, you can't cover lower spy. If you're standing to cover lower spy/upper spy, you can't cover either shutter hack. If you're covering the spy shutter hack, you can't cover lower merc and merc shutter hack.

Most people tend to put one person on the 3rd floor merc side to snipe the spy side. The other guy either stays near the dumpster outside 1st floor spy, or near the crane hack. That still leaves the merc shutters to hack. It also allows you to constantly tap-hack like kronf pointed out -- get 2 seconds, leave. You can also have your partner shock the third floor merc while you chip away at 1st floor spy side. You do not need to actually hear the grenades to be able to do this. Just throw a couple snares, run around and have a good time. Just like club.

[Gawain]

if there are balanced maps, it's definitely steel and club.

I highly disagree. Two of the easiest spy maps in the game.

which is exactly the reason those are balanced as the general win/loss ratio heavily favors the merc side.
however, i like the gameplay better on maps like factory (which i would consider quite balanced with +1min mission time and maybe some minor obstacle and camnet changes assuming ct gameplay).

what makes steel and club a hit-n-run map is the proximity of many objectives and the poorly implemented vertical layout which makes it easier for spies to change floors than for mercs.

[Spekkio]

All the maps in my "easy spy" category can be won by never using any stealth at all (not counting elimination). That's just stupid.

[Westfall]

if there are balanced maps, it's definitely steel and club.

I highly disagree. Two of the easiest spy maps in the game.

easy spy (order of difficulty from left to right):

cinema, hospital, squat, polar base vertigo, club, krauser, orphanage

medium spy (order of difficulty form left to right):

factory, mall, museum, aquarius, schermerhorn

Almost impossible spy (order of difficulty from left to right):

Station, Bank, Warehouse, Missile, Deftech

This is quite an accurate list.

[Farley4Fan]

You guys just don't get it do you?  You CAN cover the panels and the objectives.  All you need is a clear shot at the opposite building.  You get a clear shot by moving to a window, that's it.  No challenge there.  And guess what, there are windows by the panels.  You can camp by the shop, which is by the panel, and still be able to fire grenades into the other building.  Then, when they do fire nades when a spy is hacking, they will die 99% of the time because they couldn't see it coming.   It's a whole different experience than you guys understand it is...

[InvisibleMan999]

Yeah, I think most of the PC players just aren't used to what having no EAX does.

The merc tactics pretty much can change entirely. If the mercs want pretty much they can both be in the courtyard and patrol the shutter hacks + the crane hack. As a variant, one merc can be on the fire escape platforms outside the merc building with a rifle. But really that's basically the same, since both have easy courtyard access.

So here's what happens. You start hacking something on either building, one merc fires a nade (stopping the hack or killing you). If you do gradual hacks, where you back off and then do it again, then one merc goes up the stairs after you while the other remains down bottom wtih frags. Gradual hacking is so slow and you have to be so paranoid that it really doesn't accomplish much. It's a good idea in theory, but remember, you pick off 2 seconds, one merc is coming your way and the other is covering the hack with grenades. He may fire a nade unexpectedly before you start hacking in an effort to guess when you'll resume again. If he does this correctly, you're dead. And with the other merc coming up the stairs at you, you don't really have time to dick around. 

Now you may be able to get the other merc wtih a waiting sticky or something. But even if you do, so what? You're still playing a guessing game with nades from the window.

As for your partner, he either chooses to stay wtih you in the same building and ambush the merc who comes to get you, or try to attack the other building. Attacking the other building doesn't tend to work very well though because you've still got one merc in the courtyard with frags. So he can get 2 seconds off the thing and then has to play the frag guessing game. About the only thing you can do is have your partner draw one merc into a building and then quickcam the other merc in the courtyard, that'll get you one hack.

Getting the crane hack or any of the bottom level hacks is basically impossible. Since both mercs are down there most of the time and your mines are concentrated at defending those.

Now I know you're thinking that this strategy probably sounds pretty noob, but with no EAX, it's really quite effective.

You've got 8 nades per merc life. If you each suicide once for more equipment, that's 32 nades. More than enough to keep the objectives locked down.

[kronf]

I'll repeat it again I have no EAX. Ya you can't hear things from far away, but thats not the end of the world
- If a merc decides to camp near a window to snipe he becomes very vulnerable for grabs.
- Its very easy to make merc waste frags and if you believe he can easily suicide for it then you are wrong. As soon as one merc is off the map for 15 seconds, by that time you can get 1 or even 2 objectives of your choice.
- Hacking gradually by 2 seconds IS very effective in practice. Mostly because squat objectives are only 8 seconds long.
- Its very easy to hack 2 seconds shutters. If they are camping shutters then they just leave objectives open.
- If mercs camps on a balcony on 3rd floor you have at least 3 ways to neutralize him. You can ledge grab him, you can jump on him from above, you can sticky cam him. Not to mention he is just absolutely easy to shock whenever you want.
- You might have invisible soundless nades on a laggy server, but that has nothing to do with game mechanics. Hell, on some servers I cant hear merc's shots, but that doesn't make rifle broken or anything.

He may fire a nade unexpectedly before you start hacking in an effort to guess when you'll resume again. If he does this correctly, you're dead.

Thats how merc wastes his nades. You don't just wait inside the hack room, you wait in a room nearby. Then you hack 1-2 seconds and leave as soon as merc launches a nade. You dont have to hear it you know that as soon as you start hacking he will try to nade you. If he goes up the stairs not only he opens up the lower objective, but whats more important he opens up crane. Just go for crane and you will make him waste even more frags since he cant snipe from second floor. This all is assuming that your partner doesnt sit in spawn doing nothing, but is trying to get objectives from second building or just shocking mercs. This is just one example of what you could do and not some ultimate unbeatable strategy.
I dont know what eax has to do with steel squat being a run-and-hack map and whats more importantly what it does for spies. Ya I wish sometimes I had eax as merc, but imo it absolutely makes no difference for spies. You can hear without eax everything thats close to you.

I'm tired and drunk, and I hope this post makes sense. Kkthnxbye.

[Spekkio]

+1

Eax for spies helps find mines, and even that sometimes works against you. That's about it.

[Xris]

I am also a PC player that is not able to use eax.  I have been around since the PT-demo days and it hasn't hurt me as far as I can tell. I wear a headset with the volume cranked up and I can hear lots, both as spy and merc.

EDIT: also I find with headsets the stero works better, as in you can tell left / right better.