Project Stealth

Forums => Public Discussion => Topic started by: Roberto1223 on January 15, 2009, 05:39:23 AM

Title: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Roberto1223 on January 15, 2009, 05:39:23 AM
ok i hope u guys understand what im trying to say.

first of, this idea was inspired on the effects of smoke granade when merc has no visions on (the smoke hides the spy)

ok the flaw is the folowing: EMF detects electro magnetic fields, and the chaff has those magnetic things that float in the air for a few seconds, yet the Chaff particles dont hide the spy from a the mercs EMF vision.

ok so the idea is that if a spy is at a distance sorrounded by the particles of his own chaff, these particles will prevent an EMF sniper merc from easily finding the spy because the EMF would simply detect like a white cloud.

what im trying to say is that Chaffs should have a bad effects to mercs at long distances (like smokes), and not only when they come in contact with the mercs.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Daybreak on January 15, 2009, 05:58:35 AM
So you're saying Chaff should be a smoke grenade for EMF?!!

That's the most original thought of heard in a long time. That's new feature that would be pretty cool and useful for passive spies.

Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: a3c0i3d on January 15, 2009, 12:09:19 PM
nice, logical, i like it.

Should not be that hard to put it in i guesse.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: frvge on January 15, 2009, 12:40:05 PM
Interesting idea. Indeed the best since a long time.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Daybreak on January 15, 2009, 03:39:06 PM
Quote from: Daybreak on January 15, 2009, 05:58:35 AM
So you're saying Chaff should be a smoke grenade for EMF?!!

That's the most original thought of heard in a long time. That's new feature that would be pretty cool and useful for passive spies.

Wow. How many more words can I forget? I wasn't even drunk or anything. No wonder I fail.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Westfall on January 15, 2009, 10:36:52 PM
I don't see how it would create a cloud around the spy. The particles should be present, yes, but I don't think it should hide the spy. That's what a smoke nade does. If you want the merc not to use a vision, hit him with a chaff. Chaff's original intent is to bypass anything electrical, not cover the spy with a cloak. Maybe the outreach of the chaff should be greater to take out lighting. I don't think chaff needs anymore boosting.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Tidenburg on January 15, 2009, 11:32:02 PM
I like it.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 16, 2009, 12:59:21 AM
Sure.  Why not.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: VaNilla on January 16, 2009, 01:27:38 AM
Very cool idea but in practice, could work and could not, it would need some testing.

My reason is this, imagine your in EMF and catch a spy on the ground, he runs off, throws a chaff grenade and you see him popping in and out of your vision, it may lead you to believe there are 2 spies and things like that, basically it might be more disorientating than is necessary.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 16, 2009, 01:53:58 AM
Simply turn off EMF.  I don't think this new little idea will have much of an effect on the gameplay, at all.  Why?  People don't whore EMF that much - most likely even less in Project Stealth because of the removal of ghosting.  If a merc is looking at you with EMF, turn off your visions instead of wasting a chaff grenade.  The only time I can see this little chaff/smoke idea thing happening is during a time when someone is tagged by a spy finder.  Also, will a spy trapped spy light up on EMF like on CT?  I mean for project stealth.  What is the deal on that?
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Blank Man on January 16, 2009, 01:56:13 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 16, 2009, 01:53:58 AM
Simply turn off EMF.  I don't think this new little idea will have much of an effect on the gameplay, at all.  Why?  People don't whore EMF that much - most likely even less in Project Stealth because of the removal of ghosting.  If a merc is looking at you with EMF, turn off your visions instead of wasting a chaff grenade.  The only time I can see this little chaff/smoke idea thing happening is during a time when someone is tagged by a spy finder.  Also, will a spy trapped spy light up on EMF like on CT?  I mean for project stealth.  What is the deal on that?

I was thinking the same thing, I just couldn't find a way to explain it. Well put.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 16, 2009, 03:59:27 AM
I still think it should be put in I just don't think it will be common.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Roberto1223 on January 16, 2009, 06:14:53 AM
Quote from: Westfall on January 15, 2009, 10:36:52 PM
I don't see how it would create a cloud around the spy. The particles should be present, yes, but I don't think it should hide the spy. That's what a smoke nade does. If you want the merc not to use a vision, hit him with a chaff. Chaff's original intent is to bypass anything electrical, not cover the spy with a cloak. Maybe the outreach of the chaff should be greater to take out lighting. I don't think chaff needs anymore boosting.

i dont think your getting the idea. it is not a power addition to the Chaff at all! it is only a flaw and a fix. its correcting what was wrong. not improving. so theres no reason really to burn the idea down to ashes.

secondly, yes it would create a cloud around a spy. why? well, answer how is it possible that those little particles diasable the laser grids without really ever coming in contact with the laser emitters? well because these magnetic particals obviously emit some kind of high tech electro stuff that disables the grids! so, this high tech emission (emitted by each magnetic particle) would create a cloud in EMF.

ok sorry i dont really know the scientifically correct terms for the chaffs particles or whatver so im just using the word "stuff" etc.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: AgentX_003 on January 16, 2009, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on January 16, 2009, 06:14:53 AM
Quote from: Westfall on January 15, 2009, 10:36:52 PM
I don't see how it would create a cloud around the spy. The particles should be present, yes, but I don't think it should hide the spy. That's what a smoke nade does. If you want the merc not to use a vision, hit him with a chaff. Chaff's original intent is to bypass anything electrical, not cover the spy with a cloak. Maybe the outreach of the chaff should be greater to take out lighting. I don't think chaff needs anymore boosting.

i dont think your getting the idea. it is not a power addition to the Chaff at all! it is only a flaw and a fix. its correcting what was wrong. not improving. so theres no reason really to burn the idea down to ashes.

secondly, yes it would create a cloud around a spy. why? well, answer how is it possible that those little particles diasable the laser grids without really ever coming in contact with the laser emitters? well because these magnetic particals obviously emit some kind of high tech electro stuff that disables the grids! so, this high tech emission (emitted by each magnetic particle) would create a cloud in EMF.

ok sorry i dont really know the scientifically correct terms for the chaffs particles or whatver so im just using the word "stuff" etc.

this is nice and theory and all but Emf ghosting is fixed so whats the point ?
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Westfall on January 16, 2009, 05:39:58 PM
I know what you're saying roberto. It just seems kind of irrelevant. It's not a bad idea by any means. However, if it's a magnetic disruption, then waves should be implemented as oppossed to a cloud. I can live with a cloud though.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 16, 2009, 06:29:33 PM
How about, instead of waves or a cloud, nothing?   :)  When there is chaff in the vacinity of electric devices such as a lit up spy, the merc cannot see any of it.  This includes things like cams, spy bullets, or even mines.  The merc can't see those things in EMF if they are disabled by/in the range of the chaff nade.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Spekkio on January 16, 2009, 06:48:57 PM
I don't like it...not because it's not cool, but because it'll unnecessarily boost chaff. It already completely disables all visions if the mercs touch it; it doesn't need to also invalidate a vision from a distance.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Westfall on January 16, 2009, 06:57:43 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on January 16, 2009, 06:48:57 PM
I don't like it...not because it's not cool, but because it'll unnecessarily boost chaff. It already completely disables all visions if the mercs touch it; it doesn't need to also invalidate a vision from a distance.

QFE
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: I <3 U on January 16, 2009, 06:59:40 PM
I like it, seems logical. Nice idea Rob. And chaff wont work through walls now, so its already severely nerfed as it is, giving it a little boost will be good.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: I <3 U on January 16, 2009, 07:05:42 PM
Sorry wrong topic.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Blank Man on January 16, 2009, 07:25:31 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on January 16, 2009, 06:59:40 PM
I like it, seems logical. Nice idea Rob. And chaff wont work through walls now, so its already severely nerfed as it is, giving it a little boost will be good.

Which, if I may add is extremely stupid. Mines will have so much power now that chaff cannot disable them through walls. Spy traps will completely lock some entrences with the tactic like in clubhouse garden where the spy traps are placed far enough for the spy not to be able to shoot a chaff through the actuall opening.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Spekkio on January 16, 2009, 09:40:25 PM
Quote from: Blank Man on January 16, 2009, 07:25:31 PM
Which, if I may add is extremely stupid. Mines will have so much power now that chaff cannot disable them through walls. Spy traps will completely lock some entrences with the tactic like in clubhouse garden where the spy traps are placed far enough for the spy not to be able to shoot a chaff through the actuall opening.
Not really. I've played many games while not taking chaff at all, and have still won against good teams doing so. Traps/poisons can be removed by partner (or by *gasp* shooting the chaff out of your gun and banking it off the far walls). You can trip proxies and run behind walls, or *gasp* creep up to them and remove them. The only thing that changes is how long it takes you to do this, so it takes some of the run-n-gun out of the game.

The only time you'll really have a problem is if the merc is shooting at you, in which case you probably shouldn't have gotten caught in the first place.

Besides, the traps in garden are bugged due to geometry, anyway, so it's a bad example (the lasers move on a slant for everyone but the host, allowing you to place the trap on lamps farther than you ought to). If this really is an issue (and the only one I can think of that is is the trap/poison covering C lower entrance on Deftech), you can always shorten the absurdly long max placement distance.

QuoteAnd chaff wont work through walls now, so its already severely nerfed as it is, giving it a little boost will be good.
I wouldn't call that a severe nerf. At the very least, it's not one that justifies giving chaff both the effect of chaff AND smoke if used on someone using EMF. If Chaff didn't already take mercs out of visions + prevent reload + fuzzy hud, then I'd say go for it. But pair all that with a smoke effect for EMF and you have an overpowered gadget.

Besides, you can easily achieve a smoke effect on someone using EMF by turning off all your visions and not using your equipment. What's so hard about that?
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: VaNilla on January 16, 2009, 11:29:43 PM
Spekkio makes a good point there as far as I'm concerned, basically why I don't think this would work out. Skull made a good point too though about just simply switching out of EMF when you see it, only problem is you don't necessarily know it's there.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 17, 2009, 01:13:22 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on January 16, 2009, 09:40:25 PM
Quote from: Blank Man on January 16, 2009, 07:25:31 PM
Which, if I may add is extremely stupid. Mines will have so much power now that chaff cannot disable them through walls. Spy traps will completely lock some entrences with the tactic like in clubhouse garden where the spy traps are placed far enough for the spy not to be able to shoot a chaff through the actuall opening.
Not really. I've played many games while not taking chaff at all, and have still won against good teams doing so. Traps/poisons can be removed by partner (or by *gasp* shooting the chaff out of your gun and banking it off the far walls). You can trip proxies and run behind walls, or *gasp* creep up to them and remove them. The only thing that changes is how long it takes you to do this, so it takes some of the run-n-gun out of the game.

The only time you'll really have a problem is if the merc is shooting at you, in which case you probably shouldn't have gotten caught in the first place.

Besides, the traps in garden are bugged due to geometry, anyway, so it's a bad example (the lasers move on a slant for everyone but the host, allowing you to place the trap on lamps farther than you ought to). If this really is an issue (and the only one I can think of that is is the trap/poison covering C lower entrance on Deftech), you can always shorten the absurdly long max placement distance.

QuoteAnd chaff wont work through walls now, so its already severely nerfed as it is, giving it a little boost will be good.
I wouldn't call that a severe nerf. At the very least, it's not one that justifies giving chaff both the effect of chaff AND smoke if used on someone using EMF. If Chaff didn't already take mercs out of visions + prevent reload + fuzzy hud, then I'd say go for it. But pair all that with a smoke effect for EMF and you have an overpowered gadget.

Besides, you can easily achieve a smoke effect on someone using EMF by turning off all your visions and not using your equipment. What's so hard about that?

Agree completely. 

This idea will hardly ever be seen in game, and when it does, it won't have that much of an effect.  I say it still be put in, just for the sake of a few possible interesting situations this could bring about, but just for that.  Put it at the bottom of the to do list, but it should BE on the to do list.  Make sense? 
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Roberto1223 on January 17, 2009, 06:07:13 AM
remember guys, that this game is a clever game for clever people. making the game more complex in tiny ways will make it a way more intresting game.
8)

Most of u guys are scared of new ideas even when it comes to new small details like this, you guys come up with "but's" and "what if's"; you guys need to take a chill pill. the game has to evolve!

the crawling idea in a way also comes into play with this one that is why i posted on both topics (plz dont deviate this topic)

*im in favor of a more realistic game (not refering to a game where death comes with one bullet), but realistic in a way that the freakin game makes sense at least, realistic as in making it a game not for stupid kids.

*im in favor of crawl aka Body-to-floor (with same functions as back to wall, nothing more and nothing less) [not for gay ass vents]

*im in favor of shit not going through walls ("waah waah balance" dude are u kidding me? fuck off man give me a break and go play some gameboy advanced game if u want that kind of shit to happen)

*im in favor on this threads main idea and many other similar small detail ideas that other people could think of to make this the best game around.

im not in favor of keeping the game exactly the same as scct. like i said game should be more complex. (complex does not mean unbalanced)

i agree with papa skull
"This idea will hardly ever be seen in game, and when it does, it won't have that much of an effect.  I say it still be put in, just for the sake of a few possible interesting situations this could bring about, but just for that."

i disagree with spekkio
"If Chaff didn't already take mercs out of visions + prevent reload + fuzzy hud, then I'd say go for it. But pair all that with a smoke effect for EMF and you have an overpowered gadget."

The thing is spekio that these 2 Chaff situations will not take effect at the same time they would take place in diferent situations, the only way they could happen is if a merc is shocked then chaffed then spy chaffs the floor area where he is standing (but spy woulnt hide in a cloud of chaff) so merc woulnt even notice both effects, also because merc can run out of the chaff very fast after recovering from shock.

gimme a break guys. this aint a bad idea...


think about it. how many ideas have u guys acepted? prolly only the "make thermal vision purple" idea cause it dont really change anything. well proposing ideas that dont change shit is not useful...



Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Westfall on January 17, 2009, 06:54:43 AM
...and proposing an idea and acting like its the shit does?

This is an unnecessary attribute. If the spy wants to be hidden, he will switch off EMF. A cloud already occurs when smoke is dropped. Maybe the smoke grenade should make the shadow of the spy appear dim when the merc is in EMF, b/c there is something obstructing the view between the spy and merc. Chaff grenade is getting its fixes, and while the idea is not a bad idea, it's an unnecessary add that will accomplish little to nothing.

The logical thing would be to make smoke obstruct the view as opposed to the chaff obstructing the view....kind of like it does with MT, but the MT still tracks the spy. In EMF the spy's outline would just end up being fuzzy/mirage-like.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 17, 2009, 07:40:09 AM
It's just a nifty little effect and I could care less either way.  I think most people feel this way.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: AgentX_003 on January 17, 2009, 09:17:11 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 17, 2009, 07:40:09 AM
It's just a nifty little effect and I could care less either way.  I think most people feel this way.

well just by the video of emf its already the way it supposed to be, i just hope at some point to see the prototype for NV and Merc's Motion.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: frvge on January 17, 2009, 12:27:48 PM
We released an image of the Merc's MT. http://www.moddb.com/mods/project-stealth/images/motion-tracking-vision1#imagebox
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kurbutti on January 17, 2009, 03:43:09 PM
Why do you think aluminium strips or "chaff" would light up in EMF?
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Spark Mandriller on January 17, 2009, 03:44:53 PM
What's with all the idiots on this forum who refuse to accept that their ideas could be bad? Man.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: frvge on January 17, 2009, 04:08:40 PM
Many like this idea. We will probably decide in playtesting.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Spark Mandriller on January 17, 2009, 04:23:09 PM
Yeah but this guy's claiming that the only reason people don't like it is 'cause they're afraid of change. Like srsly.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 17, 2009, 05:58:06 PM
Ha and this wouldn't even change the gameplay.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kurbutti on January 17, 2009, 06:43:49 PM
Oh? Then why they're planning to waste time playtesting it?
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: frvge on January 17, 2009, 07:29:23 PM
Let me rephrase: I think it deserves a test in playtesting. It hasnt been approved by Mic who does the Visual Effects.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kubanator on January 17, 2009, 08:20:22 PM
Quote from: Kurbutti on January 17, 2009, 03:43:09 PM
Why do you think aluminium strips or "chaff" would light up in EMF?

Because EMF stands for Electro-magnetic something (force?), and it works by searching for magnetic fields, and displaying them on screen. Chaff is a big cloud of magnets, therefore it should make it impossible to see though via EMF.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 17, 2009, 09:35:58 PM
Electro magnetic field.  Lol, you even said FIELDS in the next sentence.  :D
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: MrSneaky08 on January 18, 2009, 07:04:29 PM
Flamethrower!!! I like it!!
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Blank Man on January 18, 2009, 08:35:03 PM
*frvge edit: us euros have no clue what actuall humour is, so, blankman take your good jokes elsewhere*
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 18, 2009, 09:02:38 PM
The usual "make some ridiculous joke about something you don't like to make it seem unreasonable" bullcrap.  And you're one to talk Blank Man, should we look back at a few of your crazy ideas you defended to the death?  No, but I'm just saying don't be a hypocrite and get back on topic.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Blank Man on January 19, 2009, 12:13:07 AM
I have nothing to be ashamed of. My ideas had purpose and reason. Look back if you want, but in the end... blow me.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 19, 2009, 12:31:49 AM
*frvge edit...* get back on topic.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Roberto1223 on January 19, 2009, 02:59:39 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 17, 2009, 05:58:06 PM
Ha and this wouldn't even change the gameplay.

exactly.. lol.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 19, 2009, 06:43:00 AM
frvge, i tell him to get back on topic so I get a "get back on topic" message?  What gives? Lol  :D
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: frvge on January 19, 2009, 07:30:39 AM
You were hostile/talking bs in the normal PS section, so I removed only that part.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 19, 2009, 09:24:08 PM
And blank wasn't?  Come on dude.  It's pretty obvious that he is the root of most problems.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Blank Man on January 20, 2009, 04:50:29 AM
obvious schmobvious
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Farley4Fan on January 21, 2009, 02:33:59 AM
So the verdict on this idea is: We'll see through playtesting

?
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Roberto1223 on January 21, 2009, 02:46:40 AM
i guess.. :S xD
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 12:23:31 AM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on January 17, 2009, 06:07:13 AM*im in favor of a more realistic game (not refering to a game where death comes with one bullet), but realistic in a way that the freakin game makes sense at least, realistic as in making it a game not for stupid kids.
Lol, it'd help your argument if your suggestion was actually realistic.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 01:04:01 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 12:23:31 AM
Lol, it'd help your argument if your suggestion was actually realistic.

How is it not? EMF vision detects magnetic fields created by wires, which are very weak. It would make sense that powerful magnet strips would create a cloud or at least a heavy distortion effect.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 01:24:12 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 01:04:01 AM
How is it not? EMF vision detects magnetic fields created by wires, which are very weak. It would make sense that powerful magnet strips would create a cloud or at least a heavy distortion effect.
Yes, that would make sense. However, chaff is simply metal strips made to confuse radars, and are not magnetic at all. The idea of chaff disabling anything (like it does in CT) is unrealistic.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 01:51:59 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 01:24:12 AM
Yes, that would make sense. However, chaff is simply metal strips made to confuse radars, and are not magnetic at all. The idea of chaff disabling anything (like it does in CT) is unrealistic.

Your arguement is that the EMF cloud should not exist because it is not realistic. However, under the context that chaff is magnet it is realistic. Then you claim that chaff itself is unrealistic because RL chaff doesn't have magnetic properties.

Now, either you are saying we should take out chaff because it is unrealistic, or you have no argument, because chaff isn't based off of realism and therefore the EMF cloud effect can occur.

http://splintercell.wikia.com/wiki/Chaff_Grenade
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 02:08:41 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 01:51:59 AMYour arguement is that the EMF cloud should not exist because it is not realistic. However, under the context that chaff is magnet it is realistic. Then you claim that chaff itself is unrealistic because RL chaff doesn't have magnetic properties.

Now, either you are saying we should take out chaff because it is unrealistic, or you have no argument, because chaff isn't based off of realism and therefore the EMF cloud effect can occur.

http://splintercell.wikia.com/wiki/Chaff_Grenade
My point is that chaff isn't based on realism, and thus saying that something should be implemented based on realism when the underlaying mechanism is unrealistic makes an invalid argument.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 03:02:25 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 02:08:41 AM
My point is that chaff isn't based on realism, and thus saying that something should be implemented based on realism when the underlaying mechanism is unrealistic makes an invalid argument.

The argument isn't to implement it for realism. The argument is that it would add another level of depth to the gameplay, allowing EMF to be countered in a more passive way, similar to smoke grenades countering motion tracker, and flash bangs countering normal vision.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Spark Mandriller on January 25, 2009, 03:35:30 AM
Spamming chaff doesn't seem too passive to me.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 03:57:19 AM
More passive then attacking mercs directly. And if you read the similes, you know what I mean.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: AgentX_003 on January 25, 2009, 04:25:00 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 02:08:41 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 01:51:59 AMYour arguement is that the EMF cloud should not exist because it is not realistic. However, under the context that chaff is magnet it is realistic. Then you claim that chaff itself is unrealistic because RL chaff doesn't have magnetic properties.

Now, either you are saying we should take out chaff because it is unrealistic, or you have no argument, because chaff isn't based off of realism and therefore the EMF cloud effect can occur.

http://splintercell.wikia.com/wiki/Chaff_Grenade
My point is that chaff isn't based on realism, and thus saying that something should be implemented based on realism when the underlaying mechanism is unrealistic makes an invalid argument.


well i hate to break it to ya, chaff does exist but not in a hand held format, Fighter pilots use it to jam the enemies radar as well as flares to divert heat seeking missles :/
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 02:12:41 PM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 03:02:25 AM
The argument isn't to implement it for realism. The argument is that it would add another level of depth to the gameplay, allowing EMF to be countered in a more passive way, similar to smoke grenades countering motion tracker, and flash bangs countering normal vision.
Actually, one of his arguments is that it'd be more realistic, just see what I quoted in my first post:
Quote from: Roberto1223 on January 17, 2009, 06:07:13 AM*im in favor of a more realistic game (not refering to a game where death comes with one bullet), but realistic in a way that the freakin game makes sense at least, realistic as in making it a game not for stupid kids.


Quote from: AgentX_003 on January 25, 2009, 04:25:00 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 02:08:41 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 01:51:59 AMYour arguement is that the EMF cloud should not exist because it is not realistic. However, under the context that chaff is magnet it is realistic. Then you claim that chaff itself is unrealistic because RL chaff doesn't have magnetic properties.

Now, either you are saying we should take out chaff because it is unrealistic, or you have no argument, because chaff isn't based off of realism and therefore the EMF cloud effect can occur.

http://splintercell.wikia.com/wiki/Chaff_Grenade
My point is that chaff isn't based on realism, and thus saying that something should be implemented based on realism when the underlaying mechanism is unrealistic makes an invalid argument.


well i hate to break it to ya, chaff does exist but not in a hand held format, Fighter pilots use it to jam the enemies radar as well as flares to divert heat seeking missles :/
Duh, that's what I've been saying all along, however, that chaff is only simple strips of metal that has nothing magnetic or electric about them.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kubanator on January 26, 2009, 01:23:29 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 02:12:41 PM
Actually, one of his arguments is that it'd be more realistic, just see what I quoted in my first post:

Then scratch that. How is it unrealistic that a bunch of magnetic strips interfere with delicate electrical devices? (Try putting a magnet on you monitor) (PS. Don't)

Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 02:08:41 AM
Duh, that's what I've been saying all along, however, that chaff is only simple strips of metal that has nothing magnetic or electric about them.

Different chaff. It just happens to share the name with the aforementioned counter-measure. It doesn't mean it shares any of it's properties.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Cyntrox on January 26, 2009, 01:36:53 AM
The chaff in CT is obviously based on the counter-measure, anyone can see that. Even if it was magnetic, it wouldn't be able to do all the things it does in CT, like disabling lasers. If you could somehow disable a laser emitter with magnetism - and I'd love to know how that works - the alarm would still go off. Hence the chaff in CT is unrealistic. Not that it bothers me - everything doesn't have to be realistic.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: AgentX_003 on January 26, 2009, 05:23:24 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 26, 2009, 01:36:53 AM
The chaff in CT is obviously based on the counter-measure, anyone can see that. Even if it was magnetic, it wouldn't be able to do all the things it does in CT, like disabling lasers. If you could somehow disable a laser emitter with magnetism - and I'd love to know how that works - the alarm would still go off. Hence the chaff in CT is unrealistic. Not that it bothers me - everything doesn't have to be realistic.


well in theory it is flakes of metal, soo when the flakes of metal fall.. it will block the line of sight of the laser but interms of disrupting cameras that would be the only logical solution that is magnetic .
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Cyntrox on January 26, 2009, 08:07:50 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on January 26, 2009, 05:23:24 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 26, 2009, 01:36:53 AM
The chaff in CT is obviously based on the counter-measure, anyone can see that. Even if it was magnetic, it wouldn't be able to do all the things it does in CT, like disabling lasers. If you could somehow disable a laser emitter with magnetism - and I'd love to know how that works - the alarm would still go off. Hence the chaff in CT is unrealistic. Not that it bothers me - everything doesn't have to be realistic.


well in theory it is flakes of metal, soo when the flakes of metal fall.. it will block the line of sight of the laser but interms of disrupting cameras that would be the only logical solution that is magnetic .
Lol, having their line of sight disrupted is what triggers optical sensors such as lasers. And if either cameras or lasers were deactivated, the alarm would be triggered.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Roberto1223 on January 27, 2009, 05:23:18 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 01:24:12 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 01:04:01 AM
How is it not? EMF vision detects magnetic fields created by wires, which are very weak. It would make sense that powerful magnet strips would create a cloud or at least a heavy distortion effect.
Yes, that would make sense. However, chaff is simply metal strips made to confuse radars, and are not magnetic at all. The idea of chaff disabling anything (like it does in CT) is unrealistic.


cyntrox your pissing your own hands, i said "realistic as in making sense" then u said "Yes, that would make sense"
so just stop the bs. dude lol
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Roberto1223 on January 27, 2009, 05:26:44 AM
Cyntrox your pissing all over your feet this time

"Duh, that's what I've been saying all along, however, that chaff is only simple strips of metal that has nothing magnetic or electric about them."

ok then grab some strips of metal u have in ur house, get some aluminum foil and cut it into strips and do some Chaff magic with it.

guess what? its not as simple haha!

*try throwing them at your monitor and see if it gets disabled.

(hey im serious dude, it  might work!)
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Cyntrox on January 27, 2009, 10:32:34 PM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on January 27, 2009, 05:23:18 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 25, 2009, 01:24:12 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 25, 2009, 01:04:01 AM
How is it not? EMF vision detects magnetic fields created by wires, which are very weak. It would make sense that powerful magnet strips would create a cloud or at least a heavy distortion effect.
Yes, that would make sense. However, chaff is simply metal strips made to confuse radars, and are not magnetic at all. The idea of chaff disabling anything (like it does in CT) is unrealistic.


cyntrox your pissing your own hands, i said "realistic as in making sense" then u said "Yes, that would make sense"
so just stop the bs. dude lol
I said it makes sense on the terms that the chaff in CT is not chaff.

Quote from: Roberto1223 on January 27, 2009, 05:26:44 AM
Cyntrox your pissing all over your feet this time

"Duh, that's what I've been saying all along, however, that chaff is only simple strips of metal that has nothing magnetic or electric about them."

ok then grab some strips of metal u have in ur house, get some aluminum foil and cut it into strips and do some Chaff magic with it.

guess what? its not as simple haha!

*try throwing them at your monitor and see if it gets disabled.

(hey im serious dude, it  might work!)

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.terminally-incoherent.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F05%2Ffacepalm.jpg&hash=59862163c2951d9badddbe724f1de81debe0fded)
What I've been saying all along that chaff doesn't work that way...
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: LennardF1989 on January 30, 2009, 01:51:07 PM
Chaff might be a wrong name for what it does. How CT interpretates it has more away of an EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) with some chaff getting "spawned" along with it.

If anyone hasn't seen EMP-device live on video or something, it's some kind of magentic emitter which can destroy any kind of transistor or whatever. The video I saw had an EMP-device aimed at an old PC (while turned on) after like 10 seconds, the screen started flickering, bumping and the machine turned off, completely dead and you could never fix it again (it was stated that if the Russians would turn on their "aimed" emitters in a war, whole Europe would get a blackout).

That's where CT is a bit unrealistic (both SP and MP), where EMP/Chaff doesn't really break something, but more temporary (as it comes back online after a couple of seconds). That doesn't matter, as breaking a whole camera or alarmsystem takes away the fun.

So, to conclude, you should see the chaff-grenade explosion as a HUGE EMP explosion which spawns the "silver foil".

Silver foil can only dissort some types of radars. Because you could think that the EMF vision is a radar on its own, it should detect "chaff"-grenade activity (just think away "some types").

The explosion itself is one huge Electromagnetic field, EMF detects that, so, on explosion a huge white spot should be visible. Because of the "silver foil" floating around, it dissorts the EMF even more, making it show up like a smokegrenade in EMF (after the explosion).

Think rationally and we have our own EMF smokegrenade, which is damn close to how it would work in real-life ;)
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kubanator on January 31, 2009, 10:34:47 AM
Yay a dev stepped in. Now can we stop the arguing and get to the hugz?

Ps. Why is the shi in your motto thing in hiragana, while the rest is in katakana?

Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: LennardF1989 on January 31, 2009, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 31, 2009, 10:34:47 AM
Yay a dev stepped in. Now can we stop the arguing and get to the hugz?

Ps. Why is the shi in your motto thing in hiragana, while the rest is in katakana?
I think you're misreading it, the characters say Rena-do, which is Japanese for Lennard

Edit:
Quick Link I found: http://www.stockkanji.com/Names+in+Japanese/Names+L/Leonard%20(LEN-ard).htm
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: Kubanator on January 31, 2009, 08:41:29 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on January 31, 2009, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on January 31, 2009, 10:34:47 AM
Yay a dev stepped in. Now can we stop the arguing and get to the hugz?

Ps. Why is the shi in your motto thing in hiragana, while the rest is in katakana?
I think you're misreading it, the characters say Rena-do, which is Japanese for Lennard

Edit:
Quick Link I found: http://www.stockkanji.com/Names+in+Japanese/Names+L/Leonard%20(LEN-ard).htm

ãâ€" =/= ãÆ'¬

The one on the right means re (foreign), the one on the left means shi (non-foreign). Shi is curved, re is straight.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: AgentX_003 on January 31, 2009, 09:36:55 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on January 30, 2009, 01:51:07 PM
Chaff might be a wrong name for what it does. How CT interpretates it has more away of an EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) with some chaff getting "spawned" along with it.

If anyone hasn't seen EMP-device live on video or something, it's some kind of magentic emitter which can destroy any kind of transistor or whatever. The video I saw had an EMP-device aimed at an old PC (while turned on) after like 10 seconds, the screen started flickering, bumping and the machine turned off, completely dead and you could never fix it again (it was stated that if the Russians would turn on their "aimed" emitters in a war, whole Europe would get a blackout).

That's where CT is a bit unrealistic (both SP and MP), where EMP/Chaff doesn't really break something, but more temporary (as it comes back online after a couple of seconds). That doesn't matter, as breaking a whole camera or alarmsystem takes away the fun.

So, to conclude, you should see the chaff-grenade explosion as a HUGE EMP explosion which spawns the "silver foil".

Silver foil can only dissort some types of radars. Because you could think that the EMF vision is a radar on its own, it should detect "chaff"-grenade activity (just think away "some types").

The explosion itself is one huge Electromagnetic field, EMF detects that, so, on explosion a huge white spot should be visible. Because of the "silver foil" floating around, it dissorts the EMF even more, making it show up like a smokegrenade in EMF (after the explosion).

Think rationally and we have our own EMF smokegrenade, which is damn close to how it would work in real-life ;)


wow for someone who is semi decent at the game, you have quite the extensive knowledge, Impressive.
Title: Re: EMF/CHAFF flaw/solution
Post by: LennardF1989 on February 01, 2009, 12:34:57 AM
It's my job to know that kind of stuff, but thanks for the compliment ;D

Thanks for the headsup Kubanator, I think Word symbol chooser tricked me there.