This is in no way shape or form the thoughts of the development team, these are all my thoughts and my thoughts only. This is not in our current plans for PS. This is simply for discussion.
Wanted something to discuss, so I thought I'd try this first.
Could giving the spies a 12 shot, close-range pistol actually be fun?
You'd of course have to limit their ammo, and make sure it's inaccurate at anything other than short range similar to the pistol in SCCT single player. Say if the spies could take 10 bullet before dying, the mercenaries should be able to take 15. The mercenary should always win in a fair 1v1 battle, so the goal for the spy is to use stealth to take out his enemies. It could bring up some pretty interesting double-teaming tactics for spies as well, since 2 spies could take out a mercenary in half the time if they team shoot.
By limiting the spies ammo and accuracy, it begins to form a sense of balance between the characters. The mercenaries still have health packs, eachother for healing, and possibly even 'health kits' as a gadget option, and since mercenaries would win 9/10 in a fair 1v1 battle, you can begin to see some balance. This is where the spies must rely on teamwork, speed and stealth if they want to eliminate the other players. If the spies were still too powerful, then why not take off their suppressors? That way, when a spy fires a shot he appears on the mercenaries radar for a second, successfully balancing a spy that sits back and fires from a distance or from the shadows, slowly draining the mercenaries health bit by bit. Another solution would be upping the damage of the mercenaries rifle.
To say that these two things can't be balanced is a little naive, since both the mercenaries and spies weapon damage properties could be edited until a proper balance is found.
This could be an exciting new way to play PS, along with the classic way. What if we went as far as giving the spy the option for either the tazer, or the pistol? The difference would be that the tazer would allow the player to launch grenades, while the pistol would only allow the player to throw them short distances. Another noteworthy differences could be that the pistol, when drawn emits a blue light in shadows, so the player would have to be aware of the mercenaries FOV when lining up a shot, or even using the heart beat sensor. The pistol also had limited ammo, and limited accuracy at mid to long range. This could bring up some interesting scenarios where one spy brings the pistol, and the other brings the tazer, creating a sort of offense-defense type teamwork setup.
To bring balance to this, after a mercenary is tazed or put to sleep he cannot he damaged by a pistol, similar to mercenaries being invincible to jump attacks after being tazed or knocked down. Would giving the spies a low-ammo pistol be detrimental to gameplay, or could it be something positive if done correctly?
How do you think it would change the game?
I'm a little tired of typing right now, so I'll come back in a few hours and would love to start a discussion on this, so post your thoughts.
as a seperate mode I guess it would be fine, however I believe I can speak for alot of people here and
that being said, people don't want deathmatch, it what be the death of this game because much like deathmatch , there are people out there who play nothing but deathmatch.
I hate to rehash old flames here but alot of vets would want just the classic game mode and nothing else.
I do think tho it could be tested as a temporary mode similar to like how Valve has mutations every week.
Plus if you had a voting system like that, to see if the people like it or not then , it could be taken away and if people did then it could stay as a permanant mode.
I read over this topic: http://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/index.php/topic,1247.0.html (http://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/index.php/topic,1247.0.html) earlier today which ties in with this.
The more I think about it, the more I like it.
Without putting too much thought into balance I'm thinking the Mercs would take less damage from said pistol than the Spies from any firearm. Mercs have body armor/helmets after all... Spies COULD have EXACTLY enough bullets to kill a Merc if he is at full health and you hit every bullet in the head (little chance at this happening). What this does is keeps the reliance on neck breaks and jumps if you're going for kills.
Mercs... for whatever reason in this whole situation are immune to damage while knocked out. GAME LOGIC!!!
What it could also do that differs from the SS gun (which would be an option to pick) is the pistol has that OCP(?) thing that was in co-op CT. Where it disables stuff by holding down on it, re-ups immediately after it's released. Doing this doesn't give a disabled warning to Mercs. So teamwork is a must if it is to be used for anything usefully. Two pistol users could effectively sneak around a map without setting off detectors. You DO have the option to shoot certain things (unguarded lights, cams, mines etc) for a permanent disable, but it also gives off a warning. Among all these, shooting also gives off a ping on the Sound Detector.
Spies should also have to reload the gun at ammo crates. Say they have 12 bullets. Once you're out... you're out. You must go to an ammo crate to reload the gun and have more use than just temporarily disabling something (in other words. No PERSONAL use to you. Since you can't disable stuff AND get past what you would be disabling).
That's all I'm typing for now.
EDIT: This is of course adding with the options you also brought up above tigaer. Love the same, yet different style of gameplay. (Accomplish the same goal in a different way)
I agree with Agent. It's a good idea for an alternate mode but not for the main game. A lot of maps should be designed to separate mercs, so if spys had pistols they would simply double team one merc, killing him pretty easily. If you limit the gun so that it's hard to do even that then players would never use it, making all the design and implementation a waste.
Quote from: Chaosdarkmage on February 05, 2011, 06:30:24 AM
I agree with Agent. It's a good idea for an alternate mode but not for the main game. A lot of maps should be designed to separate mercs, so if spys had pistols they would simply double team one merc, killing him pretty easily. If you limit the gun so that it's hard to do even that then players would never use it, making all the design and implementation a waste.
The problem I think you two are having with the idea is that you're assuming that it's use is to KILL. While yes, logic would point the pistol at the Merc... if they were to make it so it's only SO effective against Mercs, but has a difference in usability with objects on the map, then waste becomes opportunity.
Pretend that if, even with 2 spies wielding pistols, that they had little chance of killing even one Merc. The spies aren't holding 2 assault rifles with unlimited ammo, after all. They would both run out of ammo quickly. On the other hand it could provide permanent disables of SOME security systems, or at the very least a longer duration of disabled-ness when compared to the sticky shocker.
It's an option that works on the whole "Limited, but more power" concept. While the SS is the "Weaker, but unlimited".
interms of balance tigaer , I mean if you really wanted to balance it out without doing it the way your talking about , Why don't you make the spies weaker than the mercs like in DA , minus the crappy presence detector.
Ultimately I think what needs to be done is sticking to the core game play that was said years ago
along with updates and what have you. It would be what versus should be, a cat and mouse game.
the spies being hte mice scurrying to get thier objectives and quietly , and the mercs being the cats on the hunt =)
Actually, I don't know if this has been said or not, why not do this strictly for deathmatch? In order to balance it out and make it a decent game mode for once, maybe give spies a silenced pistol. Things like ammo/damage can be discussed during testing. Make health packs plentiful so that spies can't shoot a merc once, run away, come back, finish the job, rinse/repeat. They would have to get into a lengthy firefight or get a few consecutive (head)shots on a merc to kill him.
Alright so I stand not correct upon what I originally said, Deathmatch didn't really kill the gaming community. It was lack of support / tutorials that ,killed it.
But as i said before focus more on the development of what was originally intended , then things will be aight
Quote from: AgentX_003 on February 05, 2011, 07:15:04 AM
Alright so I stand not correct upon what I originally said, Deathmatch didn't really kill the gaming community. It was lack of support / tutorials that ,killed it.
But as i said before focus more on the development of what was originally intended , then things will be aight
This is in no way shape or form the thoughts of the development team, these are all my thoughts and my thoughts only. This is not in our current plans for PS. This is simply for discussion.
I'm just brainstorming ideas, and I thought that this was an idea with a lot of potential for discussion. And yes, I agree with most of the things that have been posted here. Giving the player the option to make a custom gametype of neutralization where spies have weapons would be pretty sweet in my opinion, more freedom to the players.
My comment about mercenaries taking 15 bullets was due to the spies only having 12 per clip, so a spy cannot kill a mercenary with full health in 1 clip, and he should be dead by the time he reloads if the mercenary is decent at the game.
Another thing I mentioned was
not giving the spies a silencer, so that when they shoot they're sacrificing their position for firepower, as when they shoot they show up on radar for a second, and cause a sound ping; this limits spies sitting back and slowly draining a mercenaries health from a distance, or from the shadows, suggesting that the pistol shouldn't be used for specifically killing.
I like the idea of giving spies maybe one extra clip, then requiring them to resupply at the mercenaries ammo crates. This creates yet another risk to using this weapon, successfully telling players that you aren't supposed to run and gun just because you have a pistol.
...I still think it could be acceptable in Story mode if made right.
Though I do like the deathmatch-only deal. Gives unique-ness to the mode without throwing in things (other objectives) that take away from the single mindedness of what a DEATHmatch is supposed to be.
Quote from: Cronky on February 05, 2011, 08:21:24 AM
...I still think it could be acceptable in Story mode if made right.
Though I do like the deathmatch-only deal. Gives unique-ness to the mode without throwing in things (other objectives) that take away from the single mindedness of what a DEATHmatch is supposed to be.
I do as well. Having the ability to select the tazer instead of the pistol gives old school players a choice between play styles, while opening up a huge window for new strategies.
Yeah, and (in concept) all it would take is to add the pros and cons that you've already laid out (perhaps some of mine also ;)).
It keeps the integrity of the old, while giving some new to those that have already played the old to death.
::EDIT::
Also, to recap what was in that thread I posted in my first reply. Stone's idea of a sector based game mode that gradually gives Spies more and more to work against, while upgrading Merc gadgets (Mercs starting with little in terms of weaponry/gadgets. Ending with full arsenal) as the spies advance further and further.
Sounds pretty one sided when read like I have above, but it seemed pretty well put together.
Personally I rather see a spy carrying a combat knife with him so he gets more dangerously up close. Even if you made a gun take a hit on accuracy it still is a huge RNG factor stuck to it that will either safe or break whatever the spy would be doing. What I'm trying to say it, for such a pistol to exist it would be far too unreliable to use properly. It's unusable at long(-er) range and somewhat cheap, maybe even unnessecary, to use up close.
From a realistic POV any spy should have a knife with him. For both general protection and as it's a multifunction tool to for example slit one's throat, cut a electricity wire, break open a lock.
Call me biased but I really can't find a plausible reason why someone such as a spy would not take a simple knife with him.
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on February 05, 2011, 04:52:02 PM
Call me biased but I really can't find a plausible reason why someone such as a spy would not take a simple knife with him.
Call me biased but I really can't find a plausible reason why someone such as a spy would not bring a silenced pistol with him, to take the mercenary out, and drag his body with him to leave no evidence?
Anyway, I still can't see the way it would ever work for a spy to bring a gun, that would take a full clip to the head to kill him, I mean what is the point? I just really don't see anything useful in that? Might as well let Tazers do damage for a limited clip.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 05, 2011, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on February 05, 2011, 04:52:02 PM
Call me biased but I really can't find a plausible reason why someone such as a spy would not take a simple knife with him.
Anyway, I still can't see the way it would ever work for a spy to bring a gun, that would take a full clip to the head to kill him, I mean what is the point? I just really don't see anything useful in that? Might as well let Tazers do damage for a limited clip.
(All this is how I envision it, and also thinking it would be in more than Deathmatch. Cause I likez it)
It's supposed to "Work" because the gun isn't supposed to be used to kill a Merc. A team of two Spies could put pressure on a Merc via chipping away at his health, but would still lose if just trying to aggro him with a gun.
It's main use would be a limited, but more powerful disable of securities when compared to the SS. Both being unlimited, but to harness the pistols advantage in that area, after expending all your shots, you must reload at a ammo crate.
-
The low accuracy is so as a spy you can't just sit at any ammo crate and shoot Mercs from across the map. I assume there would be a gameplay mechanic that increased accuracy as long as you stood still. Thus while using Stealth with it, you COULD shoot thing further away.
(Look, in contrast at the SS gun which has near perfect aim as long as you can get the laser on whatever you want to hit)-
The damage decrease can be supported by "game logic"
because the Merc is wearing Armor. The Spy on the other hand is effectively running around in underarmor with glow-y lights. It's also to keep from 2 spies just running up on a Merc and just gunning him down.
(Look at the SS that doesn't do any damage, ever)-
Keep in mind this gun is also only a pistol, it's rate of fire would probably be pretty slow when put in comparison of any of the Merc guns. In the time it takes for a Spy to get 12 rapid fire shots off (1 clip), the Merc could get around the same quantity (1 clip (but many more bullets)) with any of their guns (Minus the shotgun, but damage would balance out to way more). At this point the Spy would be out of ammo until either death, or they hit an ammo crate. With no way to disable securities such as Spy Traps/Mines without doing it the manual way.
(Look at the SS having limited shots in rapid succession, but has infinite ammo.)That, among the list of other possible changes that could be implemented could make an alternative to the SS gun. Not just a (minor-ly) lethal way to play Spy.
I will stay positive about this, but for now I see this useless, maybe once I hit my head it will work :) But keep going, don't let me de-motivate you.
An example of a Map Specific use of the pistol would be if say... the drop box in Aquarius "Pirate Room" didn't have a button that dropped it. Instead you had to shoot it off. SS couldn't do it because it doesn't use bullets.
---
Gun specific choice could be if say... in Station. There are those windows that you can use a wall hack outside to open.
Say the wall hacks weren't there, instead it was all powered by a generator. The generator is located outside where both Spies and Mercs have an open shot at it. Imagine also that turning off the generator, while opening the windows, closes the vents outside (for examples sake). You have a choice here with 1 player wielding a SS and 1 player wielding a pistol. Both work on it, but in different ways.
Using the SS on it will temporarily open the Windows and close the vents. After a duration, the vents will open and the windows will close again.
Using the Pistol on it will destroy the generator. You will always have the windows open now, but the vents will always be closed.
If the CT Co-op OCP deal was added to the pistol, then you could potentially do what the SS guy does also, but you yourself wouldn't be able to take advantage of the opening you made. (You must keep the gun on what you are disabling)
---
The same kind of deal could be place on Static Defenses that aren't specifically protected from both guns.
SS can disable a Motion detector for... 10 seconds (Not sure how long it actually does). The pistol can shoot the same Motion detector and put it offline for 20-30 seconds. Both giving off a warning to the Merc that something somewhere is disabled.
If the OCP thing was again implemented into the pistol, then a Spy could use it to disable a defense for their teammate, and in doing so with it would not give a warning off to the Merc. The disadvantage again being that you yourself could never take advantage of these openings you're giving.
---
The OCP would also drain your energy while in use.
(Again, this is how I see it and like it... And I think that's all I have to really say about it.)
OMG! Cronky!
I forgot about OCP, would be nice if both of the spies were able to equip a silenced pistol with OCP, and be able to disable a security system without setting off security failure, but the spy has to have his OCP on a green light on the specific static defense, and not move away his crosshair from it, as well as the OCP should have an energy bar draining and refilling.
Yup.
I see the pistol more as a support weapon than a lethal Merc murderer. You're able to disable for longer, but can only do it a limited amount of times. You can help a teammate bypass securities silently, but cannot do the same for yourself. Even when you're out of ammo though, you still have the OCP to work with and help your teammate out a little bit. Mixing it up with 1 player taking each weapon could prove to be an interesting strategy.
I assume the "Energy bar" would just be the same one that powers your Optical Camo.
How about an OCP attached to the spy's wrist gadget? Doesn't have to be attached to a pistol now or does it?
What I think we are missing here, we see Silenced Pistol as a Lethal weapon, why not make Silenced Pistol a bit more of a....specific gadget to fire out specific more modified and more powerful gadgets? Like, silent sticky cameras/snares/spy bullets? No? Ok.
The thing is, bullets don't seem to mix that well with a shadownet spy, better....
Crap before I forget, can Project Stealth developers PLEASE! Oh god, please make a design for a katana on a shadownet spy like in Halo, I think it would be really amazing!
Anyway back to topic, shadownet spies won't really look spy type if they have bullets. So maybe we can change lethal bullets into something different?
By the way since I am so pumped with excitment, we can allow spies to have a bandana with long strips to be more like a ninja type of a thing, note I AM NOT TRYING TO CHANGE PS INTO SOME ANCIENT JAPANESE NINJA GAME!
I mean Spartans in Halo 3 had a katana on their back just for the cool look, PS can always have something similiar, and WHY......THE.......FLOWER......NOT!?
Back to topic, no in depth talk about the ninja outfit talk, just a bit.
Cronky@: Definately, also it can be possible to have a small clip next to the gadget, so once you run out of that energy, he will reload and have minimal amount of that ability to use OCP, after the clips run out, it's just normal energy for tazer.
Wh1tE_Dw4rF@ That another good thing, animation believe it or not can suit very well from the Buzz Lightyear on Toy Story, and why not?
I really can't find the use of a pistol that would take less than 10% of merc's health away. Mercs typically don't lose health in small percentages like that due to the nature of the spy's offensive arsenal, and health boxes and teammate heal are generally more accessible to them. Pelting a merc with 15 rounds before he notices enough to kill you would be impossible.
The only case I can see this being useful is when the merc falls off a cliff giving him <20% health and you somehow were able to know this before you start shooting at him.
That why we are brainstorming, instead of saying it's a bad idea, come up with something different, don't think of silenced pistol as a lethal weapon it's in real world, think of a pistol that can do damage in a different way, or benefit the spies more in a different way.
As well as, Silenced pistol can be a substitute for a Tazer, meaning Silenced Pistol has something better, and it cannot stun a mercenary or disable the security grid unlike tazer that can do that, but can't do something that a Silenced Pistol can.
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on February 05, 2011, 09:32:46 PM
How about an OCP attached to the spy's wrist gadget? Doesn't have to be attached to a pistol now or does it?
Depends on if you mean for the wrist gadget to be an alternative weapon, like DA's wrist deal, or if they can just take the OCP as a gadget in general.
If you meant the DA wrist deal, then it has been talked about a lot, and not a lot can be made up to make it "Work". The pistol works easier (in my mind) because it's essentially just a modified SS. Both shoot, both disable stuf, both do something to the merc, etc etc. It's easy to put new parameters on something that's already there (in a brainstorming sense, I'm sure it's equally as hard to actually implement it). Making it a pistol just makes sense in the context of the idea.
If you mean they can take it as a gadget freely, then that just lessens the reason why you would bring the pistol at all. Without it on the pistol you would be near useless one you ran out of the 12 bullets you have on hand. It's also a unique thing that not bringing the SS would give you. Much in the same way that you could HARM Mercs with the Pistol. Killing them would be tougher than just trying to neck break them though, but if they're low on health then it might be possible.
(Like spekkio said, if they someone were under a certain percentage of health and you somehow knew that)
@DreadA.) ...don't talk about how "Bullets don't mix well with shadownet spies" then go on about a Katana.
B.) You lost me on the clip thing.
@SpekkioThat's true if thought that the gun should be used to kill Mercs somehow.
Quote from: Cronky on February 05, 2011, 09:54:18 PM
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on February 05, 2011, 09:32:46 PM
How about an OCP attached to the spy's wrist gadget? Doesn't have to be attached to a pistol now or does it?
Depends on if you mean for the wrist gadget to be an alternative weapon, like DA's wrist deal, or if they can just take the OCP as a gadget in general.
If you meant the DA wrist deal, then it has been talked about a lot, and not a lot can be made up to make it "Work". The pistol works easier (in my mind) because it's essentially just a modified SS. Both shoot, both disable stuf, both do something to the merc, etc etc. It's easy to put new parameters on something that's already there (in a brainstorming sense, I'm sure it's equally as hard to actually implement it). Making it a pistol just makes sense in the context of the idea.
No no no, the Katana thing is just a prop, you can't use it or anything it's just a fashion statement.
If you mean they can take it as a gadget freely, then that just lessens the reason why you would bring the pistol at all. Without it on the pistol you would be near useless one you ran out of the 12 bullets you have on hand. It's also a unique thing that not bringing the SS would give you. Much in the same way that you could HARM Mercs with the Pistol. Killing them would be tougher than just trying to neck break them though, but if they're low on health then it might be possible.
(Like spekkio said, if they someone were under a certain percentage of health and you somehow knew that)
@Dread
A.) ...don't talk about how "Bullets don't mix well with shadownet spies" then go on about a Katana.
B.) You lost me on the clip thing.
@Spekkio
That's true if thought that the gun should be used to kill Mercs somehow.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 05, 2011, 09:48:52 PM
That why we are brainstorming, instead of saying it's a bad idea, come up with something different, don't think of silenced pistol as a lethal weapon it's in real world, think of a pistol that can do damage in a different way, or benefit the spies more in a different way.
What's the point of "doing damage in a different way?" The merc has four states in SvM: He is fully capable of killing you, he is stunned, he is KO, or he is dead. He doesn't lose any of his fighting capabilities gradually based on health, so what use is taking away 15% of his health by pelting him with a pea-shooter twice? The risk is that you give away your position and have a high probability of getting killed, while the gain is that you annoy the merc slightly and have a very low probability of killing him on the off-chance that he's walking around with very little health.
It's not something I'd use, and it's not something I can see most people using once they get past the "wow this is new" factor.
From the design philosophy the spies aren't brought into action to harm the mercs. They are there to avoid them. If you give spies a lethal gadget, to clarify, a direct lethal gadget, the whole design philosophy is thrown out of the window and a new way of winning a round opens up. (Think of hacking a terminal to give away your position then hide somewhere along the path the merc would come and pop lead in the back of his head and continue hacking).
I think everyone would enjoy having the OCP made a standard spy gadget. Reduce the range so you have the SS for mid to long range and the OCP as a (fast) CQC tool. The OCP would work the same on the merc's headgear as it would on a defensive trap. As long as you're aiming at the merc the vision would interfere similiar than that of using a SS but he wont be stunned. This would make a nice tactic to take out a merc if you're working together rather than running both around the merc trying your luck at who gets his neck first.
Cooperative spy teams will love being able to take their pace and get by defensive traps using the OCP rather than chaff'ing their way trough them.
It should work on many, maybe even most electronic devices found around the map as long as you channel the OCP on it. (Lights, cameras, lasers etc.)
Remember that it's all balanced around the fact the spy has to aim at the object at all times and can only move that fast while doing so. He probably also lights up as a 4th of july bonfire on the mercs EM vision.
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on February 05, 2011, 10:17:44 PM
-stuff-
You bring up good points. I was only thinking of it in the mindset of how the pistol would be used.
Well put sir. Very well put.
I must say though, I'm astounded by how off put I am from your sig. :P
Dwarf, you would want a knife to stab stab stab some poor merc that you probably bound/gagged and realized was a blonde girl all along.
Not a bad idea though.
The only way a pistol that does a small amount of damage would even be effective is if the spy just jumped on a merc and brought him down to half health. Then it would take what? 5 shots? I guess it could be effective if both spies brought a gun but then would it be OP?
The time to talk about damage isn't now. There are so many variables we aren't considering because we aren't testing it. An easy way to test it w/o making a pistol assett would be to make the ss do some damage. It's one thing that I know from my limited game making experience would be easy to do. It's a simple action/effect command except maybe a bit more complex if damage is dealt based upon where the target was hit. Mess with it a bit until a sweet spot is found.
The knife is interesting. It could replace ss.
The attack would be the same kind of deal as an elbow except a slightly different animation I suppose. If I had to guess I'd say it could work with 3 or 4 hits = a kill. Who knows.
Sounds interesting though. I can imagine 2 spies using it where 2 "elbow hits" from each would result in a kill. If one spy goes down then it's up to the other spy to knife him more, which would be difficult. To give the knife some extra use maybe it could be used to cut wires on the map, disable mines and hack them, a quicker kill animation after a grab, who knows?
I would say that could only work in deathmatch, but I'm not sure if it wouldn't work in story given that the combat wouldn't be drastically changed like with the addition of a pistol. Thoughts?
Nothing should replace the elbow blow, at least not the frontal one.
Just as in single-player SCCT you would have the option to grab or expose of the merc using knife. (non-lethal/lethal, although one might question just how non-lethal a broken neck is.) Remember this is not a fencing game thus we shouldn't sport spies flailing their knife about trying to piñata a merc.
I can't say much about if it would be manageable in terms of playable/round time but it would give a spy 3 ways of disabling a terminal.
1.) Temporarily shut it down trough OCP that gives no feedback at all to the merc not even that there's something going on.
2.) Breaking it with your knife in a short time but making somewhat noise and alerting the merc of that specific security failure.
3.) Hacking the terminal taking some time but won't make a noise and gives only a vague global security alert to the merc.
There you have 3 play options. The cooperative kind, the aggro kind and the silent team kind.
This is without the implementation of a pistol.
The knife sounds like a Passive Gadget (which I like). One in which takes up a slot, but you don't actually USE (at least not like most gadgets/SS gun get used).
I could see it being pretty unique. When you grab a Merc you no longer have the Neck Break option. Instead you do knifey things. When you go up to a hack panel you have a new option.
Perhaps some instances that were done by hack panels or buttons in CT would be exclusive to those that brought the knife. Nothing imbalanced, but say (I'll use this example again) instead of a button to drop the box in the Pirate Room of Aquarius. You'd cut it down.
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on February 05, 2011, 10:17:44 PM
From the design philosophy the spies aren't brought into action to harm the mercs. They are there to avoid them. If you give spies a lethal gadget, to clarify, a direct lethal gadget, the whole design philosophy is thrown out of the window and a new way of winning a round opens up. (Think of hacking a terminal to give away your position then hide somewhere along the path the merc would come and pop lead in the back of his head and continue hacking).
I think everyone would enjoy having the OCP made a standard spy gadget. Reduce the range so you have the SS for mid to long range and the OCP as a (fast) CQC tool. The OCP would work the same on the merc's headgear as it would on a defensive trap. As long as you're aiming at the merc the vision would interfere similiar than that of using a SS but he wont be stunned. This would make a nice tactic to take out a merc if you're working together rather than running both around the merc trying your luck at who gets his neck first.
Cooperative spy teams will love being able to take their pace and get by defensive traps using the OCP rather than chaff'ing their way trough them.
It should work on many, maybe even most electronic devices found around the map as long as you channel the OCP on it. (Lights, cameras, lasers etc.)
Remember that it's all balanced around the fact the spy has to aim at the object at all times and can only move that fast while doing so. He probably also lights up as a 4th of july bonfire on the mercs EM vision.
See the way he talks about philosophy and how the spies should avoid the mercenaries? Avoid lethal actions? Being spotted?
People always bash about how annoying funny punch is and crap, and that they had a neck when a mercenary charged the wall and they failed, avoid it, that's your job.
Anyway, Cronky, what I meant about the clip thing was:
Basically you have a tazer meter for tazing, and clips on the side, you can have like a clip icon or whatever.
When you shoot with it, the tazer does not refil until it reaches 0 and the spy will automatically replace the clip, but the tazer still has to refil, so it doesn't give you an instant full meter(Unless it would be a good idea to try both ways) After he loses all the clips, it just becomes a standard tazer again, refils on it's own but of course. And crap I can't find my other post why the tazer needed the clip like what was it's buff so I failed on that and I will try to find it ><
Some lethal actions are OK as long as they are such discouraged that you can't overuse them or abuse it that it goes against the design philosophy.
Just because spies should be hidden at all times doesn't mean they can't go out of their way to get their objectives done. From your view the game should end the moment a merc spots a spy, how lame would that be?
Remember that if you only have a certain way of playing with no room whatsoever to change your way of playing (fast teamwork, pushing playstyle, complete ghost ninja) the game will feel very monotone and you will have certain tactics per map that will make or break the round.
It's still a game and therefore it should be enjoyable for both teams. Forcing one team to play a certain ghost turtle game won't help improving that.
The suggestions are definitely not impossible to overcome as a merc. With a few tweaks on their end not hard at all.
Lethal actions shouldn't be discouraged in deathmatch White Dwarf. Even your sig agrees
If you fixed EAX, the OCP would also be fairly useless.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on February 06, 2011, 02:34:24 AM
Lethal actions shouldn't be discouraged in deathmatch White Dwarf. Even your sig agrees
Deathmatch? Who plays that anyway? My concerns are for story.
Well the kind of knife I was suggesting was for deathmatch. There was a thread on here not too long ago that discussed ways to balance deathmatch and make it a decent game mode. A knife that spies can attack with could help that. I see what you mean about "discouraging" that in story mode though.
Obviously story is priority one, but who says that implementing something that could help deathmatch is off limits?
Quote from: Spekkio on February 06, 2011, 03:41:01 AM
If you fixed EAX, the OCP would also be fairly useless.
PS won't have EAX.
To be honest it would be weird if spies had a knife on Deathmatch because they would leap out of the shadows and gut the mercenary... While mercenaries can't see in the shadows, unless there is something that makes it fair.
A flashlight?
Unless you have a flashlight pointing everywhere including out of your ass, this won't work, as well as the spy needs to get close to a mercenary to gut him, and even now in DM, a spy can easily bash a mercenary.
then the mercs gun must do more damage... like if it hits 3 times on hand you die, 2 times body 1 time head,
Won't really help you, a spy cannot be detected if he doesn't make any noise, and since in PS the spies will be able to do that without sneaking, that 100% You Lose for the mercenaries.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 06, 2011, 05:43:34 PM
Won't really help you, a spy cannot be detected if he doesn't make any noise, and since in PS the spies will be able to do that without sneaking, that 100% You Lose for the mercenaries.
In what way does a spy not make a noise without sneaking?
I wouldn't mind that PS would have a Face-off mode like conviction did, but of course a bit more stable and balance, and without a gun.
Maybe this is just my opinion, and I am not trying to offend Goodkebab for making the models the way they are now and I am sure a lot of people like it the way they are now, but something, just something there is in the Spy suit that says 1337, that Mercenary one doesn't, the thing is I find the mercenaries shoulder pads very.....1990---ish...
Anyway back to the topic:
Still not really sure why I can't see a reason for this to work, it's almost as if the silenced pistol is useless :/
Yeah, but this all comes down to this:
Frvge says: We have to first release Project Stealth 1.0 and after that is done fully, we will consider doing something different, bladdy bla :))
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 06, 2011, 12:33:30 PM
Unless you have a flashlight pointing everywhere including out of your ass, this won't work, as well as the spy needs to get close to a mercenary to gut him, and even now in DM, a spy can easily bash a mercenary.
I don't really follow what you're saying here.
I'm saying a knife gadget, for DM, would make your standard elbow attack do damage to a merc. This is just brainstorming for ideas to balance DM, which is already completely in merc favor. I'm not looking out for the merc.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on February 06, 2011, 10:58:27 PM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 06, 2011, 12:33:30 PM
Unless you have a flashlight pointing everywhere including out of your ass, this won't work, as well as the spy needs to get close to a mercenary to gut him, and even now in DM, a spy can easily bash a mercenary.
I don't really follow what you're saying here.
I'm saying a knife gadget, for DM, would make your standard elbow attack do damage to a merc. This is just brainstorming for ideas to balance DM, which is already completely in merc favor. I'm not looking out for the merc.
The only problem I have with the elbow attack doing damage is (at least in my head) that it's not actually too hard to simply elbow a Merc.
If it kills in 2 or 3 hits like you mentioned before, then it might be easier to just elbow than to go break their neck or jump on them. Unless the knife (when equipped) and the elbow attack is used, it doesn't knock the Merc back. If it still does the knock back, then it seems like even 1 spy could stun lock a Merc. 2 spies would just be overkill.
I think regardless of DM or Story mode, the neck break (I count ledge grab as this too) and jumping should still prevail as the MAIN way to kill people. Gadgets, both lethal and supportive, should simply help.
Well I said 3 or 4 hits because I imagine that 2 spies doing this could be op. But when you think about an average battle how many times do you think a merc gets elbowed? As long as spies can't do the tennis hit thing back and forth I think 4,5 hits would be okay. I don't know though. The thing I'm wondering is if the concept sounds interesting, because it's difficult to say how much damage would be balanced. Maybe the knife slice wouldn't knock back the merc as much as the elbow would making it harder for the spy to get away after slicing the merc.
Something that might be annoying is people bitching that it isn't an option in story mode. Might filter all the whiny, stabby, action people to deathmatch which I see as a good thing.
But I agree with your grabbing point. If the netcode is better, less lag, no more elbowing someone in the back, then grabbing should be easier anyway. The knife would be a useless addition.
I think the knife is still a really good idea, especially for DM. Much like the pistol, even though the Pistol is effectively not happening anymore (at least in chat).
I just think that if the Elbow attack and Knife were combined then the knock back should be taken away. That way the Mercs can still retaliate even if both spies are rushing him.
Or having the Knife be passive like Dwarf mentioned before. Instead of using it to hurt Mercs, it's used to give another option in the way of hacking that you otherwise wouldn't have. If it altered other things, such as stabbing instead of neck breaks (again, if equipped), then that'd just be icing on the cake. Or if mappers are able to make environmental things that are effected by certain gadgets, and by that I don't mean just the knife. (Giving reasons to bring some of the less popular gadgets).
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-worldpage.de%2Fkatana.jpg&hash=95e10eb5be95a2204b0e6fd50392f87b73f04f3f)
This is what I meant by a prop, it doesn't do anything, it's there for a nice look, same can be done with a knife or a pistol, or whatever you like.
By the way, there should be a more hardcore voice in-game, when you speak it should make noise if close enough to the mercenary, as well as the noise should be transmitted from the receiver too.
So if I speak it should make noise from me, and from my teammate.
@Dread
The knife that's being talked about isn't the same as the Katana prop you proposed earlier.
Adding props to the characters would most likely be a bad idea (in PS). While doing equipment specific changes to the character models (take gasmask, have gasmask on. Take backpack, have backpack on) would be fine and unique.
Props only serve to take away from the experience in this case. You'll also potentially ruin the gameplay on a case to case basis. From small things like... making sure the cloak for the spy makes props disappear also (I'm thinking the cheaters lament on TF2 for the spy class, before it got patches). To bigger things like just being easier to see in general.
It works in games like Halo because the characters in the game have little effect on how the game is played. They're soldiers. They're all the same. Regardless of whether you play as a spartan or a elite. Whether you use one helmet or another doesn't matter. Differentiating between the look of each player holds no significance to the game.
Closest thing you can look to is again TF2. Notice they only really have hats. While they have a variety of different weapons, the visuals of each different weapon explain to you how the player is going to play.
At least that's how I see it.
Yeah but B1nary once stated ages ago, since they are taking so much time in making this game, and they actually stare at the models and the programming for very long hours, I doubt that will slip their mind, and yes I do understand that the knife is being discussed as a gadget and not as a prop. But still, I doubt props will make a drastic gameplay change.
The effect may not be drastic, but if it affects gameplay at all then the Prop isn't acting like a prop.
Who would wear a sword on their back if they, in similar cases as a prop-less spy, get caught more often? Props like Halo again only work because no part of the gameplay relies on knowing what the other character looks like, only what they are wielding (Which can be constantly changing).
PS will rely on looks if they are actually implement stuff like having the backpack and gasmask. Some things could change, such as using a different skin (think Counter Strike). Which would be cool if they had climate specific skins. Props would just complicate the whole formula!
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kaboodle.com%2Fhi%2Fimg%2Fc%2F0%2F0%2F35%2F4%2FAAAADNjPphAAAAAAADVH5Q.png&hash=78c316e68d7a6f9295088a095a0361af98dd0247)
Just sayin. :)
Quote from: Cronky on February 07, 2011, 01:12:32 AM
The effect may not be drastic, but if it affects gameplay at all then the Prop isn't acting like a prop.
Who would wear a sword on their back if they, in similar cases as a prop-less spy, get caught more often? Props like Halo again only work because no part of the gameplay relies on knowing what the other character looks like, only what they are wielding (Which can be constantly changing).
PS will rely on looks if they are actually implement stuff like having the backpack and gasmask. Some things could change, such as using a different skin (think Counter Strike). Which would be cool if they had climate specific skins. Props would just complicate the whole formula!
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kaboodle.com%2Fhi%2Fimg%2Fc%2F0%2F0%2F35%2F4%2FAAAADNjPphAAAAAAADVH5Q.png&hash=78c316e68d7a6f9295088a095a0361af98dd0247)
Just sayin. :)
I seriously doubt the katan will be really standing out that heavily.
You don't know though ;)
Unlike me, they should keep their characters and add-ons concise. Only adding extra things that make a benefit to the game. Not adding things that sound cool just for the sake of sounding cool.
If a Spy has flash grenades, they could have flash grenades somewhere on them. If the OCP thing got added, then the SS could have an added attachment on it. Katana on the back though? Meh. Halo did it.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 07, 2011, 12:40:55 AM
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-worldpage.de%2Fkatana.jpg&hash=95e10eb5be95a2204b0e6fd50392f87b73f04f3f)
This is what I meant by a prop, it doesn't do anything, it's there for a nice look, same can be done with a knife or a pistol, or whatever you like.
By the way, there should be a more hardcore voice in-game, when you speak it should make noise if close enough to the mercenary, as well as the noise should be transmitted from the receiver too.
So if I speak it should make noise from me, and from my teammate.
Did you even play CT competitvely? These requests are something a ubi-casual gamer would ask for.
lol no obviously not, he just started playing this year LOL.
If I started this year agent-shaggy-doo, then you just plain suck, everytime you come on my server you rage quit so badly, and yet you don't even know it's me cause I smurf your sorry ass.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 07, 2011, 10:03:34 AM
If I started this year agent-shaggy-doo, then you just plain suck, everytime you come on my server you rage quit so badly, and yet you don't even know it's me cause I smurf your sorry ass.
[frvge edit: ok, we know you two don't really like eachother. Take it to a PM]
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg703.imageshack.us%2Fimg703%2F2267%2Fyuno.jpg&hash=f1f6098dd8db5624b9854e991a4f39dfc58e8470)
Tee hee ;D
It's funny he finds so many excuses to whatever reason of losing, it's like I lost because I am allowed to lose xD
Quote from: Cronky on February 07, 2011, 01:00:05 PM
yuno.jpg
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg248.imageshack.us%2Fimg248%2F8739%2F1297085766834frame0001.jpg&hash=08189acfc1a1239bab4115960cff064584ff9c2a)
(we should decrement dread's posts by two every time he makes an agent whine post and watch his head explode imo)
Good luck with that son.
Quote from: Cronky on February 07, 2011, 01:00:05 PM
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg703.imageshack.us%2Fimg703%2F2267%2Fyuno.jpg&hash=f1f6098dd8db5624b9854e991a4f39dfc58e8470)
Tee hee ;D
best post ever
Approved!
And a knife prop would just make people OMGWHYCANT I USEMAH KNIFE FUCKTHISGAMEIMMAPLAYBLAKOPS PRO CLASS=COMMANDO.MARATHON.LIGHTWEIGHTSTABSTABSTABSTAB
Well the same thing people do on Halo, but noone cares and they get on with it.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 07, 2011, 11:30:33 PM
Well the same thing people do on Halo, but noone cares and they get on with it.
Look at it like this, if it does nothing... why take the time to add it? If no one cares... then why put it in?
Again, Halo was made with Customization in mind. Since the only thing that actually matters is what you're holding. SvM, and the same with my assumption of PS, has customization only on your load-out. What you're wearing is made specifically for the gameplay though (They don't let you change the color of your suit because anything else stands out, especially in the dark). If they want to add ANYTHING that's useless to gameplay, but sounds nice, it should be a selection of skins for both Spies and Mercs that mappers can pick that best suits their level.
A cold climate outfit (for snow levels like Polar base in CT)
A midrange climate outfit (the default)
and
A hot climate outfit (Say if someone made a jungle level or something)
Quote from: Cronky on February 08, 2011, 03:05:22 AM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 07, 2011, 11:30:33 PM
Well the same thing people do on Halo, but noone cares and they get on with it.
Look at it like this, if it does nothing... why take the time to add it? If no one cares... then why put it in?
Again, Halo was made with Customization in mind. Since the only thing that actually matters is what you're holding. SvM, and the same with my assumption of PS, has customization only on your load-out. What you're wearing is made specifically for the gameplay though (They don't let you change the color of your suit because anything else stands out, especially in the dark). If they want to add ANYTHING that's useless to gameplay, but sounds nice, it should be a selection of skins for both Spies and Mercs that mappers can to pick that best suits their level.
A cold climate outfit (for snow levels like Polar base in CT)
A midrange climate outfit (the default)
and
A hot climate outfit (Say if someone made a jungle level or something)
*cough* limerick *cough*
Quote from: Cronky on February 08, 2011, 03:05:22 AM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 07, 2011, 11:30:33 PM
Well the same thing people do on Halo, but noone cares and they get on with it.
Look at it like this, if it does nothing... why take the time to add it? If no one cares... then why put it in?
Again, Halo was made with Customization in mind. Since the only thing that actually matters is what you're holding. SvM, and the same with my assumption of PS, has customization only on your load-out. What you're wearing is made specifically for the gameplay though (They don't let you change the color of your suit because anything else stands out, especially in the dark). If they want to add ANYTHING that's useless to gameplay, but sounds nice, it should be a selection of skins for both Spies and Mercs that mappers can pick that best suits their level.
A cold climate outfit (for snow levels like Polar base in CT)
A midrange climate outfit (the default)
and
A hot climate outfit (Say if someone made a jungle level or something)
Yeah, so I am playing PS as a spy, I do not have Camo suit, and I have green stripes on my suit? If it's not there why is it on me? + Who said that Project Stealth characters should not be customizable? People want to customize as much as possible from head to feet to create their own unique character.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 08, 2011, 07:49:45 PM
Yeah, so I am playing PS as a spy, I do not have Camo suit, and I have green stripes on my suit? If it's not there why is it on me?
Pretty sure I read somewhere that the green stripes are on the suit for player visibility. So you yourself will be able to discern the general area in which you are taking up even in complete darkness. Otherwise they are invisible. Mercs can't look into a shadow and see a bunch of glowy green stripes. Point is, they are used for a purpose.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 08, 2011, 07:49:45 PM
+ Who said that Project Stealth characters should not be customizable? People want to customize as much as possible from head to feet to create their own unique character.
I said they should not be customizable. People can WANT a million things. Doesn't mean it's something they have to do. Example, I want to be able to pick up the Mercs gun if I had the skill to actually kill him. It makes sense, but it's still a bad idea.
These posts are supposed to be read knowing that all of them are in my own opinion, and with my assumptions of what's going to be/why something is in PS. Perhaps they have made a customizable character. Perhaps that addition of a prop like a katana is plausible. I doubt it, but I don't know for sure since I'm not some Dev.
I want millions things....especially a female gender and a black latex suit...
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.futuregamez.net%2Fps3games%2Fscellda%2Fscellda3.jpg&hash=e431bb11e913020185daeaa4ef4dff26f43f3e89)
Quote from: Limerick on February 11, 2011, 11:00:22 PM
where's the appeal, besides the stereo-typical big-chested Lara Croft style?
I agree with it for female gamers, however i see nothing intersting in that model, could have been done so much more gracefully.
/agree 100%
I just wanted to remind everyone else of the silliest PS3 exclusive content ever.
Quote from: monterto on February 11, 2011, 10:55:09 PM
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.futuregamez.net%2Fps3games%2Fscellda%2Fscellda3.jpg&hash=e431bb11e913020185daeaa4ef4dff26f43f3e89)
Needs a bit more skin, then it will be appealing.
That's the lowest suit. The pro suit for the female spy is much more...revealing...
Also, that suit is on PC and 360 as well.
Find a picture :P
Lim@ I think Goodkebab wil be like "Oh hell no, another 3 months of work!?" :D
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 12, 2011, 01:35:45 AM
Needs a bit more skin, then it will be appealing.
You can't play one handed bro.
Doesn't seem to be any pictures of the pro suit on google. I'll try to take a picture of my TV next time I play. She's not very hot though, but she is wearing less clothes.
It's funny, as the male suits get more advanced, they get more clothes. As the female suits get more advanced, they lose clothing.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 12, 2011, 01:35:45 AM
Needs a bit more skin, then it will be appealing.
If you want see more skin on your monitor then visit some porn websites. :-X
I don't get what's nice in that all female suits etc. it's like you never seen girl in your life. lol
I actually think a knife could work in SvM (a lot more than a pistol that takes 15 shots to kill someone and has to be used at short range anyway).
The thing is, the knife would have to go along with other equipment/abilities that would actually give it a purpose. To avoid making the game a ridiculous hack-n-slash game, you could make it so that attempting to knife a merc from the front results in an animation where you get blocked and hit with the butt of a gun (basically, the merc will win the H2H battle automatically and probably kill you, so you'd have to grab him to successfully stab him/slit his throat/whatever).
So the point of the knife wouldn't be to change the combat mechanics, but rather as a legitimate tool to use in various situations where you'd need it.
QuoteYeah, so I am playing PS as a spy, I do not have Camo suit, and I have green stripes on my suit? If it's not there why is it on me? + Who said that Project Stealth characters should not be customizable? People want to customize as much as possible from head to feet to create their own unique character.
The fact of the matter is that making all these character props takes time, and the game isn't even out yet. It's one of those 'nice to have' things that would delay the release of the game just for cosmetic purposes.
QuoteYeah, so I am playing PS as a spy, I do not have Camo suit, and I have green stripes on my suit? If it's not there why is it on me? + Who said that Project Stealth characters should not be customizable? People want to customize as much as possible from head to feet to create their own unique character.
The fact of the matter is that making all these character props takes time, and the game isn't even out yet. It's one of those 'nice to have' things that would delay the release of the game just for cosmetic purposes.
[/quote]
Well I sure hope people know that bit, cause if they don't.....geeez....
I played MGS 3 on my PS2 recently and it reminded me that the silencers you use in that game wear of with each shot you make. This could be the case here.
BUT imo, pistols are pointless. You can disable mercs/cameras/lasers/whatever with the tazer gun anyway. If the pistol doesn't have enough firepower to kill the merc efficiently, its basically pointless, because pistols are ment to kill. Spies will then switch back to the tazer gun, because its more effective and the pistol will be forgotten.
Having them in DM is completely logical, but then again they must have damage, near to that of the assault rifle and no silencer. The damage will be SLIGHT less than the assault rifle but then again the merc can move freely while shooting, while the spy engages fire position and moves slowly even while aiming the gun. Not to speak that even if the pistol is semi-auto, it is still slower rof that the ass. rifle. Shooting it will be noisy and will fabricate smoke and flash that will potentionally daze the player (potentionally, because normal players will learn to deal with it in time) and will reveal the spies position.
All in all if we have pistols in the game, the main point of CT will be broken. Ubi always propaganded that spies cant kill a merc with gun fire DIRECTLY (mine shot is indirect). That was proven in DA with the complete removal of the tazer gun which left the spies with no fire at all. Then again PS is not CT nor DA. But having pistols, even only in DM, is pointless, because it will either turn the game/mode in to a first-o-third person shooter (if its balanced with the other balistics) or it will be pointless at all (if it has very low dmg).
Imagine THIS weapon.
Overcharged SS:
---------------------
Primary Fire: Uses all your energy but shoots an overcharged SS bullet that knocks static defenses out for longer durations. When used on a Merc, regardless of where he is hit, he not only get's tazed but also a system malfunction.
Secondary Fire: OCP. Trickles energy away from you, but can knock out a static defense/mine/spy trap/etc while in use, and centered on the defense in question. When used on a Merc it gives the System Malfunction as long as it is held on him.
------------------
Pros
-Defenses are knocked out for longer durations
-Don't have to hit the head of a Merc specifically to give system malfunction
-OCP gives off no warning of downed defenses to Mercs
-OCP versus Merc can make a great distraction for your teammate
Cons
-Slower rate of fire (because of the energy depletion after every shot)
-More precision-centric (if you miss... you're SOL till you recharge energy. Missing against a Merc can be fatal... if you're banking on tazing him)
-OCP doesn't actually help YOU get through defenses, or much against Mercs. Since you wouldn't be able to realistically move and use the OCP effectively.
Reason why this instead of OCP as a gadget?: I dunno. I think having the SS and OCP as suggested in another page of this thread seems a little OP. Just my feelings on it. Plus I wanted to rehash the pistol idea that I babbled on about before... again. This time with no lethality since everyone gets hung up on that bit.
It would be nice, as well as it would be a good idea for every security defence to have a weakness for example.
Security Camera:
Can see people without camouflage suit, but it can also be avoided if it's sight is away from the certain area(Not like CT version where it's just an AOE) Also you should be able to see the line of sight it can see with Nightvision(CT SP) or Thermal, allowing the mercenaries to get lucky with EMF.
Motion Sensor:
Cannot detect players sneaking.
Can Detect players with camo suit and not sneaking.
So basically Camo suit does not make a difference.
Laser Grid:
There has to be somesort of a weakness for it, other than rolling through it.
And like Cronky said, the OCP would be a good idea to be able to disable it without a security failure, and allowing your teammate to get through.
As well as, what is with the standing roll? Will the spies be able to do the [[Crouch][C]] + [Space] + [C] without making any noise? Or is that cancelled? Because it is kind of cheap you can do that without noise...
Interesting ideas / posts! I like them. We need more posts like these.
As for crouch+dive not making sound: I can make it basically everything that we want. We'd need to keep a slightly longer history of the animations, maybe, but we'll see about that. (I'm the sound coder for footsteps and so on).
An OCP device on the pistol is nice. BUT the tazer gun already disables defenses. Its true that mercs are notified for the malfunction, but not where on the map. So basically they know there is a needle in the haystack and they don't know where it is, which is by default known from the start of the game :D What the OCP does by my understanding, is to remove the notification. That is not enough to make someone sacrifice the stun ability of the tazer gun. Also a factor are the chaff nades. They can be launched by the tazer gun or thrown manually and they do exacly the same thing as OCP plus AOE and stay some time.
I know you guys want a pistol in the game. Yes even if the 1st post says that this is only for discussion purposes, you still think that you can convince them to add it. But lets face it: other than lethal force, the pistol wont give us anything that we already don't have. And the lethal force it would bring us will be either ignorable, or game-breaking (not balance but GAME-breaking).
Offtopic:
Dread, i completely agree with you on the Camera and MD things. But the laser grid DOES already have enough weaknesses. Tazer gun, chaff, roll. More than enough. About the roll thing, i have something OVERALL to say. I love SCCT Versus for the gameplay, but i don't like the.... movement smoothness if i can call it that way. I think DA is really good asset to the series. The only "flaw" was the proximity detector of the mercs, but that wasn't something that we couldn't deal with. I personally think it was something good. It forced spies to be close to each other, because the detector showed that someone is close, but didn't show how many are close. Also lets not forget that jammer gadget. According to me the only flaw was the internet problems on PC. Nothing more. And we could deal with it too if more people played. Because there are like 50 minus (yey 50 DKP minus joke) people that gave DA a chance and all of them ignore it atm cos noone plays. And thats because noone gave it a chance. I hope the controls of PS will be as smooth as in DA.
I do not want passive defenses to be weak against a certain gadget. That is going to create a balance nightmare. It's bad enough what chaff can do.
Chaff is going to be changed since I am actually seeing how cheap chaff grenades are, and actually right now I can spit on people who piss about EAX :) Cause chaffing through a wall is no different ! HAW HAW HAW!
Chaff are nice. Maybe it will be best if one spy can only bring one type of nades on the mission. That will force teamwork thou and i cant decide if its bad or good thing.
Quote from: Swiftling on February 14, 2011, 11:53:05 AM
Chaff are nice. Maybe it will be best if one spy can only bring one type of nades on the mission. That will force teamwork thou and i cant decide if its bad or good thing.
You play too much DA, and I so disagree with you 100%.
I think the spy should not be able to shoot all 3 kinds of nades (almost) at once like in SCCT, because otherwise you should also be able to shoot "3 nades of a kind" (almost) at once, to make a smoke, or chaff field.
Quote from: Meister_Neo on February 14, 2011, 05:49:36 PM
I think the spy should not be able to shoot all 3 kinds of nades (almost) at once like in SCCT, because otherwise you should also be able to shoot "3 nades of a kind" (almost) at once, to make a smoke, or chaff field.
I agree. maybe have a cool down or reload animation or something
250-500ms cooldown should works fine, reload animation could be gay in some situations.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 14, 2011, 12:33:20 PM
Quote from: Swiftling on February 14, 2011, 11:53:05 AM
Chaff are nice. Maybe it will be best if one spy can only bring one type of nades on the mission. That will force teamwork thou and i cant decide if its bad or good thing.
You play too much DA, and I so disagree with you 100%.
Offtopic:
And maybe you are one of these fanboys of SCCT that just couldn't learn to DEAL WITH IT and whined all about DA.
Ontopic:
If you give a spy all the kinds of granades, you wont unbalance the game, but its more likely the spies to split trough the mission. And that chance increases if they are completely random team. And then what happens if the mercs decide to gangbang that spy and he can't escape? The other spy or spies suffer because of his foolishness.
All the changes in DA were to force team work, which in SCCT wasn't necessary to win. 1 spy vs 2 merc games in SCCT are a joke. You can't say "Merc are all bulky with guns and that and etc." when a solo spy can beat 2 merc like nothing. Jesus 2 merc should be able to tear a spy apart and then eat him for breakfast. And don't even start "1 spy vs 2 mercs is skill" cos we all know its not that hard. DA basically died cos people couldn't do normal teamwork and actually never tried to learn to.
Quote from: Swiftling on February 15, 2011, 03:38:11 AM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 14, 2011, 12:33:20 PM
Quote from: Swiftling on February 14, 2011, 11:53:05 AM
Chaff are nice. Maybe it will be best if one spy can only bring one type of nades on the mission. That will force teamwork thou and i cant decide if its bad or good thing.
You play too much DA, and I so disagree with you 100%.
Offtopic:
And maybe you are one of these fanboys of SCCT that just couldn't learn to DEAL WITH IT and whined all about DA.
Ontopic:
If you give a spy all the kinds of granades, you wont unbalance the game, but its more likely the spies to split trough the mission. And that chance increases if they are completely random team. And then what happens if the mercs decide to gangbang that spy and he can't escape? The other spy or spies suffer because of his foolishness.
All the changes in DA were to force team work, which in SCCT wasn't necessary to win. 1 spy vs 2 merc games in SCCT are a joke. You can't say "Merc are all bulky with guns and that and etc." when a solo spy can beat 2 merc like nothing. Jesus 2 merc should be able to tear a spy apart and then eat him for breakfast. And don't even start "1 spy vs 2 mercs is skill" cos we all know its not that hard. DA basically died cos people couldn't do normal teamwork and actually never tried to learn to.
Are you kidding me?
-No multiplayer lobby
-Impossible to join servers after start
-One kind of objective with a gay wi-fi hacking
-No gadgets for merc, no mines, no spytraps, no gasmask
-No gadgets for spy, no cams, no hbs/bullets
I could count and count... but I don't want to kill you with it.
That's gay what Ubi made with Versus in SCDA, it shouldn't even exist.
BTW. If you're fucking noob then really I am not suprised by that one spy beat you.( don't take it personally )
If you think spies in CT are one man armies then you are completely delusional or just never played. Just because you got beat by a lone wolf doesn't mean that teamwork is absolutely essential in this game, the problem may be you. You sound like someone who played against one good spy, got trampled because you didn't know the map or something, quit, waited for a simplified version of SvM, enjoyed DA despite the myriad of problems (notably the lag and complete neutering of the experience), most likely because you can chase a spy with a drone and don't have to know the map/where the vents go (most likely why you thought 1 spy could beat 2 mercs too easily), and now feel like you need to spread the word of your lord and savior.
bout right?
Did anybody else drive drones backwards in DA? I used to do that to make sure the light doesn't freak the spy out. Spot the spy on EMF by stealthily peaking around the corner > fly the drone backwards towards the spy > start death countdown 3 seconds before I get to the spies location so it blows up instantly in his face.
Win?
First: I don't take it personally, don't worry.
Second: So just because I don't like the same thing as you, i am automatically a noob? I am sure I never called anyone of you "noob", because you like SCCT better. I like SCDA because its smoother and IMO better. I said that numerious times in my posts: IMO. The fact i have an opinion doesn't make me noob. The fact that you call me noob for that, means you are a jerk and/or german (yea racist joke hee hee). I still like CT, but i like DA more... Where is the problem? The controls and movement in SCCT are stiff for me. I don't like it. I tried DA, liked it. I don't see anything wrong. Then i stated i would like the movement in PS to be the same or nearly the same. You instantly attacked me. I have a right to comment here as much as you do and you don't have the right to attack me for it.
Third: Having the theme of the game, 1 spy vs 2 mercs should be VERY hard and in SCCT its way too easy. I NEVER said that spies are OMA... Where did you saw that. OMA means that you alone can kill whole armies alone like Rambo. Spies cant do that. Their equipment must be limited. The game is ment to be played in team. Having all the gear you need means that you wont trust your teammate and will act as if he will fail. If you have limited gear, you trust your teammate/s more. There will be times when they will fail you but HEY... we are humans. They may be new guys and just starting to learn. Help them, dont throw them out. Thats for the DotA people. And if they do it intentionally, just report them and throw them out of the community. Thats the way its done. Not automatically judging someone when he likes something different than you.
P.S: And now you will want to engage me saying "Oh and if you don't take it personal, why did you type all that crap?". Well i wrote it because what i say is right. Yours is right too, but its stated the wrong way. knowing how to state something brings you friends and bonds the communities. All i see in that forum is constant flaming between kids and whining that the game isn't out yet. Now i don't call you kids, but i say you act like some.
EDIT: Maybe if more than 50 people played DA, Ubi could consider worth it to add some things and fix lag issues. But people left it so fast, that Ubi just screw DA and brought that Conviction Co-op. Basically they politely told us "If you don't value our work, we wont make it anymore. Now FO!". Just see how much time takes for the devs of PS to make something. And they still haven't released anything. And guess who will be spitted in the face when UBI decides to bring back Versus and you like it more than PS. Where will that hard work of the devs go? Its easy to say "That thing is shit." and throw it in the can. All you care is your enjoyment and you don't care if PS or SC will bring it to you. But if someone does the same for something you made, you wont like it.
Hmm, maybe I wrote that sentence bad but anyway...
Ubi will not care about DA same as they don't care about CT.
50 people... it's not worth to waste money for them.
SCDA have good things, but definetly it's not 1 gadget.
-grabbing on stairs
-breakable animations
-some cool animations
-i don't think so there is more teamwork, but whatever it matter what is teamwork for you.
-climbing on pipes from any angle
-quick jump trought fences
I could count good things, but not played SCDA for long time. IMO gameplay is fucked but from technically side game is better in some parts.
Well, Devs copy everything what's good from every Versus :P
Now we speak on one tone. Technically DA is better. Basically i am all around gamer and thats why i am able to adapt better on the DA gameplay. Maybe thats what causing me to like DA more. And you as a hardcore CT gamer, cant adapt to the loss of sticky cam and mines for example.
Well if it's technically better, how come DA barely has any players playing it to the ratio of versus?
+ We shouldn't have to adapt to the loss of sticky cameras or mines, why? Because I prefer to be able to win by having my ass near the PC as well as place some tricky mines that god knows what would cause to a spy.
Ok swiftling, maybe I was acting like a jerk but im not. We got off on the wrong foot and it's probably my fault, but it's just not true that it's easy to take on two mercs. I don't know where you're getting this from. It seems like that was one of your primary criticisms about CT and favorite thing about DA. I just can't relate.
Ubi never fixes anything unless it's game breaking or bad PR not to fix it. Don't blame the community that Ubi's game didn't stick. It's what happens when you release a broken game with less depth than its predecessor. You say people fleed DA too fast, I'm thinking you fleed CT too fast.
Quote from: tigaer on February 15, 2011, 07:21:56 AM
Did anybody else drive drones backwards in DA? I used to do that to make sure the light doesn't freak the spy out. Spot the spy on EMF by stealthily peaking around the corner > fly the drone backwards towards the spy > start death countdown 3 seconds before I get to the spies location so it blows up instantly in his face.
Win?
Oh i know tactics that are worse then that lol xD .boss house enuff said. Intresting tactic there
because at the time , I never thought of that =/ :P .
Doubleagent had some innovation ie. the escape moves / that hit boxes were fixed so it didn't matter
if you were a host or a client where ever you aimed thats where the bullet would go , rather ie. you being a client in chaostheory and having to drag your cursor to compensate for lag.
Finally they made mercs stronger then spies so I can kinda see where swiftling is trying to get at but at the same time I feel Farley4fan has hit that nail right on the head.
If you truely did stick around for ct you would open your eyes and see that chaostheory allowed you more freedom ie. (I could be in a close proxmity of you and you wouldn't even know it ) and that's why doubleagent sunk like the titanic .
Both games have their strengths and weaknesses. We attempt to combine some stuff, but for now with a focus on the SAM gameplay of CT.
Quote from: Swiftling on February 15, 2011, 09:01:56 AM
Third: Having the theme of the game, 1 spy vs 2 mercs should be VERY hard and in SCCT its way too easy.
man no
Yeah, I actually really enjoyed DA, so you guys can suck it. lol
It's a really good game, but when compared to CT, of course it doesn't stack up. It's still fun as hell and requires a different kind of gameplay and strategy; you don't sneak around and hide in the shadows when a merc is nearby, you stay far away from them. You see one? You leave and go somewhere else.
In DA it was all about anticipating your opponents movements. I still think the game had a lot of depth that wasn't really given a chance; such as dropping a smoke in the shadows before you hack from a distance, as it makes you basically invisible on EMF, which is pretty sweet.
I liked how the game played, it was different. Playing as a merc was more about knowing the maps and anticipating what you're opponent is going to do next. Mines and traps would of been useless since the spies basically had so many different spy only routes to traverse meaning they'd never work as in CT. The sticky cam would of been far too overpowering since you could knock the merc out, hack 3-4 seconds then leave before he wakes up and repeat. I really don't care if everybody says they hate it, I thought it was great for what it was.
Idk, anyway, dunno how this changed into a DA > CT > DA debate.
I think it's more bearable when you have people in a chat room, that way you can just learn more and have a lot more fun while playing it. You can joke around and have joke raging moments where you don't know what the F*CK just happened xD I think that the golden way to play games, have friends, play with them enjoy yourself.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 15, 2011, 10:41:03 AM
Well if it's technically better, how come DA barely has any players playing it to the ratio of versus?
So does this mean CoD is like ten thousand times better than CT is? Because y'know I think if we're gonna compare players then it's gonna come out on top by quite a bit.
Well, COD isn't even the same genre as SCCT or SCDA, so I don't know why you even brought that in? The way you are saying, that means WoW owns every game.
i brought that in because i am pointing out that your argumentum ad populum is stupid.
stop making arguments that are stupid.
I love DA's multiplayer. I still play it some times. I was one of the best in my prime.
With that said, I want to stress that everyone making on-the-man attacks will get the thread closed. And a naughty note will be send to Santa (that's secretly me, so I can keep track of who to warn and eventually ban).
You're not the Santa. If youvwere you would give me the electric guitar on christmas and you did not! Santa is a lie...("the cake is a lie" - before someone wish to say it)
I did enjoy the mad dashes to stop a spy from returning the data or to return it myself. You can get that situation in CT, but every objective in DA (there was only one type) was a long process ended with a frantic race. If only the game wasn't so shallow, if only it wasn't so buggy/laggy, if only the presence detector was never even thought of (seriously, wtf), it may have been a good game. It was only decent imo.
They turned hide and go seek into a game of tag. Meh.
Quote from: frvge on February 15, 2011, 11:38:15 PM
With that said, I want to stress that everyone making on-the-man attacks will get the thread closed. And a naughty note will be send to Santa (that's secretly me, so I can keep track of who to warn and eventually ban).
Your mom makes on-the-man attacks!
OOOOOOOOOOG SNAP! *Cough* Spekkio Cough* You my friend are a silly sausage. Cough* you are fucked Cough*
i can sense some kind of energy... yes.
offtopic-energy that is...
By the way, what do devs think about an OCP? It's really hard to continue the thread without much of an opinion from the creators...
Join the strike against heresies in PS
No bazookas for spies!
No fatal attacks!(ball breaking, pissing into an open throat of a killed spy)!
No gadget limitation! The budget is big enough for all eq!
No DA gameplay!
There is no such thing as team work in 3 people!
Got some more slogans?
Quote from: puuusianka on February 17, 2011, 12:47:03 AM
There is no such thing as team work in 3 people!
I think u didnt play Da with friends....
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 16, 2011, 11:09:56 PM
By the way, what do devs think about an OCP? It's really hard to continue the thread without much of an opinion from the creators...
I used to talk about it awhile ago. I love the idea.
Well that 1 developer that does like the idea, but when you talked about it what did you get as answer? Can we expect another addition the spies inventory for weapons? Or is it just going to be a tazer and presumably a hacking glove?
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 17, 2011, 10:19:13 PM
Well that 1 developer that does like the idea, but when you talked about it what did you get as answer? Can we expect another addition the spies inventory for weapons? Or is it just going to be a tazer and presumably a hacking glove?
whoa whoa whoa jabroni before you open up that can of worms , I suggest you look up the topic
remote hacking.
[frvge edit: no, he can stay]
35 of 136 Posts in this thread have been done by DreadStunLock.
It is enought to fill 2,33 of the 10 pages in this thread.
Let's make it 36, and lock this thread ;)
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 18, 2011, 03:54:02 PM
Let's make it 36, and lock this thread ;)
Uhh... no? Who cares if you posted a lot?
Meister seems to, oh well as long as devs don't care, I don't care.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 18, 2011, 06:14:59 PM
Meister seems to, oh well as long as devs don't care, I don't care.
real independent thinking there .... ???
Back when we were porting the UMP maps from SCPT to SCCT I had a play with the "ID Cards" mode that Ubi removed at the last minute from SCPT. They removed this as an option from all maps just before release, but did not remove the mode itself... so you could make a map and enable it.
In this mode Spies fired live rounds rather than sticky shockers.
I was a bit psyched about it when I first tried it and thought it may well be an awesome idea...
I was very wrong, and I understood why ubi removed it.
Playing merc was no fun at all.. However the proposed accuracy impairment was not there so headshots by an invisible spy were happening all the time.
Even with the poor accuracy and short range, I feel as though this would tip the balance too much in favour of the spies in "story mode". If it was ever to be tested out, it would only be welcome in deathmatch IMO.
That's pretty interesting scope. Never heard of anything like that.
I also feel like it could be a DM thing only, since spies in CT are handicapped in DM. PS is a different story though. (Not saying it would work in story, I'm saying DM in PS might be more balanced)
A points based score system might make this work. Spies complete objectives and score points, everytime they shoot a merc they lose points. If can create tension betwee nteh decisions each team has to make then you are already shaping up to have a good game.
That depends how much you lose and gain, if you lose too much, it's never going to be used, if you lose too little it will not matter :/ Same goes for the objectives :S And finding that perfect balance is ridicilous ><
Quote from: monterto on February 20, 2011, 06:15:00 PM
A points based score system might make this work. Spies complete objectives and score points, everytime they shoot a merc they lose points. If can create tension betwee nteh decisions each team has to make then you are already shaping up to have a good game.
This was actually discussed in-depth when the CT community tourney was held back in the day as a possibility to avoid endless ties.
The overall consensus was that a points system would be bad for the game. There are times when the mercs might concede an objective in order to clamp down on a certain portion of the map (For example, if the spies got Main Hall first in Factory, the mercs probably aren't going to guard the coop objective in there as closely as the other two rooms because you can't win the game in Main Hall). Making objectives worth points would ruin that aspect of strategy because it makes all objectives equally important. Ultimately, most people didn't want to "lose" the round by beating the spies but conceding an objective that they didn't guard on purpose because the spies had a bad gameplan.
Also, the current game dynamics REWARD spies for killing a merc on the whole. You get 15 seconds of a merc OOC, then he has to get back to wherever you are, plus he only has 3 lives. If you kill the mercs 6 times, you win. On top of that, most maps in the game cannot be won without neutralizing a merc because they will eventually be able to guard all objectives simultaneously between the two of them. I don't know where people get the silly idea from that the game is made so that you shouldn't kill mercs or that there should be some big penalty for it, since that is clearly not the case from both the gameplay and the subtitle Stealth
Action Multiplayer. This opinion seems to come from people who are beat by two aggro spies and think it's not the way they "should" play. I never had that much of an issue with most aggro spies, and sometimes the change of pace was more fun and intense than playing against people who you never see. I don't think that such a drastic change in the game dynamic is warranted; personally, I'd like to see winning via elimination to be more viable choice.
I remember I disagreed once with you, but now that you made a whole novel about it I see your point. And I definitely agree with it.
Also will you still be able to really get a "Draw" in PS? Would be nice if Devs could tell us more on the fact that, is the Win and Lose is going to be shown by:
a) For a team to win they need to win both Mercenary and Spy rounds.
b) If a team got more objectives as spy than the other team shouldn't they get somekind of a "Win" condition, or will it be "Doesn't matter how many objectives you got, win is a win, and a lose is a lose(The most boring way)"
c) Winning a spy round give you a better reward? Or they are both equal?
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 20, 2011, 06:59:40 PM
I remember I disagreed once with you, but now that you made a whole novel about it I see your point. And I definitely agree with it.
Also will you still be able to really get a "Draw" in PS? Would be nice if Devs could tell us more on the fact that, is the Win and Lose is going to be shown by:
a) For a team to win they need to win both Mercenary and Spy rounds.
b) If a team got more objectives as spy than the other team shouldn't they get somekind of a "Win" condition, or will it be "Doesn't matter how many objectives you got, win is a win, and a lose is a lose(The most boring way)"
c) Winning a spy round give you a better reward? Or they are both equal?
If PS balances the game properly, then that will answer all of your questions... a merc and spy win would be near equally difficult, so they'd both be equally worthwhile.
Judging by the media released thus far, though, the game is likely to swing in the opposite direction, making it too easy for spies. All the things that nerf mercs regarding stealth will equally nerf them fending off aggro.
You guys are overcomplicating IMO. You will know if you owned someone or got owned even without some special system to tell you how "close" you were to win.
I think that they were referring more to official competitions and the like, where an official, standard scoring system is necessary.
Especially since we saw the tournament tab :) But by that time I will probably be in University anyway xD
But seriously, I think spies are going to be quite dominant in PS like in PT, why? Bash and grab won't really be avoidable :S And that is what scares me the most :(
Just buff the tazer and that will be fine. Plus you can always jump before being grabbed after an elbow now, so why change it?
I was more referring to nerfing the special visions. That will make it a lot more difficult to see through the chaff/smoke/flash and kill the spies.
Well as I hope, the visions for mercenaries will require energy? Actually they could do the same for the laser sight and well maybe leave torchlight as it is, but actually I would like to see a tazer buff if there is going to be implemented. Maybe something like 10-15 yards?
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 20, 2011, 09:22:21 PM
Well as I hope, the visions for mercenaries will require energy? Actually they could do the same for the laser sight and well maybe leave torchlight as it is, but actually I would like to see a tazer buff if there is going to be implemented. Maybe something like 10-15 yards?
I actually wouldnt mind that at all
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 20, 2011, 09:22:21 PM
Well as I hope, the visions for mercenaries will require energy? Actually they could do the same for the laser sight and well maybe leave torchlight as it is, but actually I would like to see a tazer buff if there is going to be implemented. Maybe something like 10-15 yards?
Requiring energy doesn't fix what's actually wrong with the balance issue. It's like spraying deodorant on a pile of dogshit in your living room. What you really want to do is get rid of the dogshit, not try to hide the odor.
The problem with MT is that it counters almost everything except going slow or staying out of sight. Sounds simple enough, but going slow will leave you vulnerable anytime the merc switches visions (not to mention he can see you anyway, or use the laser to find you). Plus the time limit is not on your side. Staying out of sight is highly dependent on the map, and most maps incorporate some kind of chokepoint where you have to infiltrate past the mercs anyway. PS is on the right track by fading in a spy gradually as he moves quicker, but if he can't move quickly enough while invisible, the vision is still going to be overpowered. Let's face it -- anyone who is good at the game doesn't just stand there with MT on 100% of the time. They are constantly looking around, so if your plan is to slow crawl across an open chokepoint to bypass the merc in MT, you are going to get spotted regardless of whether he can see you in MT or has to switch visions.
Since most good mercs are cycling visions while they don't see you, all an energy meter will do is prevent a merc from using visions during prolonged aggro battles. The spies will simply have to stall long enough where the merc is blind...from there, drop a few flashes and a neck is fairly inevitable.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 20, 2011, 09:22:21 PM
I would like to see a tazer buff if there is going to be implemented. Maybe something like 10-15 yards?
How many "yards" does it go now!? At 10-15 yards (in my head) it seems like you'd be able to stand at one side of a hallway and hit someone all the way at the other end :o
lol more dread measurements
YARDS IN GAMES AND YARDS IN REAL LIFE ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT
Quote from: CougarC.A.T. on February 20, 2011, 09:41:10 PM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 20, 2011, 09:22:21 PM
Well as I hope, the visions for mercenaries will require energy? Actually they could do the same for the laser sight and well maybe leave torchlight as it is, but actually I would like to see a tazer buff if there is going to be implemented. Maybe something like 10-15 yards?
I actually wouldnt mind that at all
hey cougar i just played with you on CT today. im papa skull
Quote from: Spekkio on February 21, 2011, 12:45:53 AM
Requiring energy doesn't fix what's actually wrong with the balance issue. It's like spraying deodorant on a pile of dogshit in your living room. What you really want to do is get rid of the dogshit, not try to hide the odor.
hahah, i hear what you're sayin. So if not limiting the visions you would rather just eliminate them and just have mercs with the flashlight and laser? I wouldnt call that unbalanced either. I dont think eliminating the visions would hinder mercs too much concidering the arguement you made for spys.
Quote from: Space Manbow on February 21, 2011, 01:56:37 AM
lol more dread measurements
YARDS IN GAMES AND YARDS IN REAL LIFE ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT
Err, a yard is a yard. It is a standard unit of a measurement. Yards are the same no matter where they are. What are you on about?
Quote from: Cronky on February 21, 2011, 12:49:03 AM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 20, 2011, 09:22:21 PM
I would like to see a tazer buff if there is going to be implemented. Maybe something like 10-15 yards?
How many "yards" does it go now!? At 10-15 yards (in my head) it seems like you'd be able to stand at one side of a hallway and hit someone all the way at the other end :o
Well so far, it's 5 yards in CT, which means you have to be super close to the spy, or as a host you can be just a bit far away to hit him.
Quote from: VenomousNinja on February 21, 2011, 08:48:19 AM
Err, a yard is a yard. It is a standard unit of a measurement. Yards are the same no matter where they are. What are you on about?
Dread thinks they're different.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 08, 2011, 07:51:22 PM
Allow spies to remove sticky cameras from 3-4 yards above their shoulders.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 09, 2011, 09:20:56 AM
Do you really believe that 1 yard in CT is the same as 1 yard in real life?
Yeah, I dunno wtf he's talking about either.
Quote from: Cronky on February 21, 2011, 12:49:03 AM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 20, 2011, 09:22:21 PM
I would like to see a tazer buff if there is going to be implemented. Maybe something like 10-15 yards?
How many "yards" does it go now!? At 10-15 yards (in my head) it seems like you'd be able to stand at one side of a hallway and hit someone all the way at the other end :o
Didn't someone used to say in PT it was 20 yards!?
I think you're talking about feet, not yards.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmathcentral.uregina.ca%2FQQ%2Fdatabase%2FQQ.09.04%2Fmaggie1.1.gif&hash=334d6a5241d6fb07a6d617ba9fdeb92caeeb8771)
3 feet = 1 yard
(the picture isn't actual size, just used to reinforce the conversion) ;)
If the spy is around 6 feet tall then he is the equivalent of 2 yards.
So... unless the PT tazer was shootin' for the moon (or 1/5 of a football field), then I doubt it had a 20 yard distance.
Hmmm, maybe you are right because I cannot really remember if I had my CT units set to feet or yards >< Bullshit option anyway :/
Sweet. But how many yards in a mile? Someone help me out plz
1 mile = 1760 yards
1 yard = 0.000568181818 miles
GOOGLEZ ITZ
lol at stupid numbers. Metric system is a lot easier to calculate with. Base 10 ftw!
Quote from: frvge on February 21, 2011, 07:46:21 PM
lol at stupid numbers. Metric system is a lot easier to calculate with. Base 10 ftw!
Coming from an american, I agree.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 20, 2011, 06:32:40 PM
Quote from: monterto on February 20, 2011, 06:15:00 PM
A points based score system might make this work. Spies complete objectives and score points, everytime they shoot a merc they lose points. If can create tension betwee nteh decisions each team has to make then you are already shaping up to have a good game.
This was actually discussed in-depth when the CT community tourney was held back in the day as a possibility to avoid endless ties.
The overall consensus was that a points system would be bad for the game. There are times when the mercs might concede an objective in order to clamp down on a certain portion of the map (For example, if the spies got Main Hall first in Factory, the mercs probably aren't going to guard the coop objective in there as closely as the other two rooms because you can't win the game in Main Hall). Making objectives worth points would ruin that aspect of strategy because it makes all objectives equally important. Ultimately, most people didn't want to "lose" the round by beating the spies but conceding an objective that they didn't guard on purpose because the spies had a bad gameplan.
Also, the current game dynamics REWARD spies for killing a merc on the whole. You get 15 seconds of a merc OOC, then he has to get back to wherever you are, plus he only has 3 lives. If you kill the mercs 6 times, you win. On top of that, most maps in the game cannot be won without neutralizing a merc because they will eventually be able to guard all objectives simultaneously between the two of them. I don't know where people get the silly idea from that the game is made so that you shouldn't kill mercs or that there should be some big penalty for it, since that is clearly not the case from both the gameplay and the subtitle Stealth Action Multiplayer. This opinion seems to come from people who are beat by two aggro spies and think it's not the way they "should" play. I never had that much of an issue with most aggro spies, and sometimes the change of pace was more fun and intense than playing against people who you never see. I don't think that such a drastic change in the game dynamic is warranted; personally, I'd like to see winning via elimination to be more viable choice.
I agree with this, however if you make the assumption that the spies have bullets, I'm sure that a points system is the only way to make the game fair. Since spies with bullets is that last thing anyone wants it is clearly irrelevant.
After playing startcraft for so many years I've come to appreciate the value of a dynamic, multi-dimensional game. Aggro should be viable as well as pure stealth. The hard part is designing the weapons, gadgets and maps in a way that makes spies difficult to find and kill when they are sneaking, but not too difficult to kill when they decide to play agressively and eliminate the mercs.
Quote from: monterto on February 21, 2011, 08:17:22 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 20, 2011, 06:32:40 PM
Quote from: monterto on February 20, 2011, 06:15:00 PM
A points based score system might make this work. Spies complete objectives and score points, everytime they shoot a merc they lose points. If can create tension betwee nteh decisions each team has to make then you are already shaping up to have a good game.
This was actually discussed in-depth when the CT community tourney was held back in the day as a possibility to avoid endless ties.
The overall consensus was that a points system would be bad for the game. There are times when the mercs might concede an objective in order to clamp down on a certain portion of the map (For example, if the spies got Main Hall first in Factory, the mercs probably aren't going to guard the coop objective in there as closely as the other two rooms because you can't win the game in Main Hall). Making objectives worth points would ruin that aspect of strategy because it makes all objectives equally important. Ultimately, most people didn't want to "lose" the round by beating the spies but conceding an objective that they didn't guard on purpose because the spies had a bad gameplan.
Also, the current game dynamics REWARD spies for killing a merc on the whole. You get 15 seconds of a merc OOC, then he has to get back to wherever you are, plus he only has 3 lives. If you kill the mercs 6 times, you win. On top of that, most maps in the game cannot be won without neutralizing a merc because they will eventually be able to guard all objectives simultaneously between the two of them. I don't know where people get the silly idea from that the game is made so that you shouldn't kill mercs or that there should be some big penalty for it, since that is clearly not the case from both the gameplay and the subtitle Stealth Action Multiplayer. This opinion seems to come from people who are beat by two aggro spies and think it's not the way they "should" play. I never had that much of an issue with most aggro spies, and sometimes the change of pace was more fun and intense than playing against people who you never see. I don't think that such a drastic change in the game dynamic is warranted; personally, I'd like to see winning via elimination to be more viable choice.
The most logical counter to killing mercs would be to reduce mission time by XX seconds every time you kill a merc.
If go after the merc on too many occasions you run out of time to get the objectives. This prevents spy teams from killing mercs instead of doing their objectives.
Aggressive spies don't need full mission time to win anyway and if they do that's probably because they are incompetent at aggro-style gameplay.
I think this would somewhat be an interesting addition since you need at least some experience to be competitive as an aggressive spy, so this wouldn't hurt new players for instance.
It would be nice to see perks for different kind of playing.
Maybe even something that gives stealthy spies more mission time if they manage to complete an objective without being visually seen by a merc.
Thoughts?
Instead reducing it by XX seconds, you should do it by the percentage of the total, for example.
Mercenaries start with 3 lives.
Spies start with 4 lives.
Now, if the spy team kills the mercenaries 6 times, it's game over.
Now I am not great with maths but say it was 1v1 and the mercenary had 2 lives and spy had 3.
If a spy kills the mercenary with a gun, he would get -50% of his time, if he does it again, -50% again and then he will lose because the whole 100% of his time is deducted, same with the more amount of lives, the only reason I did it in such a weird way because I am not the best at math :P
And the reason why I am saying this is because spies always spawn with the most lives, and they can use those lives to kill the first or both of the mercenaries fully just buy shooting him and respawning till they both lose their lives, and if a mercenary goes 1v1 against a spy on 2v2 map, the outcome will surely go hugely in favor for the spy.
So it definitely should reduce it by the percentage instead of set amount of seconds.
Ok example to explain that in some cases you are not definetly precise:
10 mins
spy kills a merc. - 5 mins
spy: oh shit 5 mins! Let's kill him fast!
Spy kills merc. - 2.5 mins
merc:phew just 2.5 min to cover my ass from this predator!!!
Spy attacks again... Killls a merc. - 1.25 min
well who cares it's the end of the game.
Well not exactly like that, if it's 1v1 it should be something like this.
10 Minutes.
Spy kills a mercenary -50% 5 minutes.
Spy kills a mercenary again -50% of the total time given at the start means -5 minutes.
You lose the game.
And only if a mercenary has 2 lives, if more it has to be divided even more.
I just got an idea:
How about making the spy unable to grab for 5-10 sec after having recieved damage BY A MERC (fall damage is not included) because... well its just stupid if the spy flashspams in DM (or chaff+flash - spams in story) and grabs after that...
Well don't you think if you get grabbed because they do that....is kind of noobish?
Seriously? The dumbest things get discussed. Just my two cents:
Leave the game dynamics the way they are.
Deducting time for kils is a new idea. Interesting idea. Might be good, mmight be bad. I dont really know yet.
Punishing someone for outplaying another player?
No no no Ion. It's rewarding you... with less time.
;)
Everytime you kill a merc you must smoke a bowl. That would balance it out
Again with this stupid "punish spies for killing a merc" shit...
Being stealthy does not mean you have to be a pussy. If I grab your ass because you had no idea I was around the corner, I still played stealthy. But you want to punish me for that, which basically means that you want to make a multiplayer game that is centered around little to no interaction between the players.
That is fucking boring. Stop saying stupid things like "the spies should have [insert penalty] for killing mercs!" It's bad enough that mercs get a damn equipment refill for their ineptitude, and no one wants to play a multiplayer game where you don't see the 'bad guys' for 10-15 minutes.
Spies as far as I know get refil for their ineptitude, and if this idea of a lethal fire arm being implemented by any chance, spies will be no different.
Also mercenaries ineptitude refil is also strategic not just, HEADsGShoT MEh PLoX with cross hatched eyes and a tongue on the floor.
I disagree 100% with time deductions for killing. So you're saying that if I risk my life to kill a merc I should get punished? And if I kill 2 mercs I lose the game?
k.
They should make it so if you kill a merc then the mercs respawn with blue shells that automatically kill you.
I mean everyone loves it when that happens.
If my wins are greater than my losses my character should turn a different color too. Thank you, I pay you $20 if no one else get this.
Can I has 3 teamates plox
Quote from: tigaer on February 24, 2011, 03:17:59 AM
I disagree 100% with time deductions for killing. So you're saying that if I risk my life to kill a merc I should get punished? And if I kill 2 mercs I lose the game?
k.
Nope, you only get your time deducted if you make a kill blow from a pistol.
It's about killing a Merc with a pistol, or in DM. In story, it should not be punished of course.
Well then I don't see any point of not being cautious of using the pistol, you can just go Conviction style and pluck everyone you see...
You can't punish someone for killing a merc in DM! That is the whole point of the game! (if you even call DM a game)
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 23, 2011, 10:09:15 PM
Well don't you think if you get grabbed because they do that....is kind of noobish?
Well in CT it were HKs... but still it's just bullshit if 2 spies gang up on 1 merc... 1 spy bashes the merc, the other spy grabs the merc without any possible defense against it... and now you want to give the spy a pistol... you guys are crazy :o (no offence)
Also in CT the game was already hard to play if ping was >120... because snipes and shoots were delayed too much...
Quote from: Meister_Neo on February 24, 2011, 04:27:20 PM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 23, 2011, 10:09:15 PM
Well don't you think if you get grabbed because they do that....is kind of noobish?
Well in CT it were HKs... but still it's just bullshit if 2 spies gang up on 1 merc... 1 spy bashes the merc, the other spy grabs the merc without any possible defense against it...
1. Don't let the spies get near you.
2. Use the area of where the mines are to your advantage.
3. Use general knowledge of shooting.
Everything can be easily avoided.
oh sry... i am talking about DM (TSJ) here of course, but this NEVER happens (to me at least ;D) when i am host :o
Why would you care about DM TSJ? Though PS could make something nice when you have 3 players....A better version of DM TSJ...
Quote from: Meister_Neo on February 24, 2011, 04:27:20 PM
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 23, 2011, 10:09:15 PM
Well don't you think if you get grabbed because they do that....is kind of noobish?
Well in CT it were HKs... but still it's just bullshit if 2 spies gang up on 1 merc... 1 spy bashes the merc, the other spy grabs the merc without any possible defense against it... and now you want to give the spy a pistol... you guys are crazy :o (no offence)
Also in CT the game was already hard to play if ping was >120... because snipes and shoots were delayed too much...
You were always able to jump or berserk before being grabbed in this situation.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on February 24, 2011, 02:49:55 AM
Spies as far as I know get refil for their ineptitude, and if this idea of a lethal fire arm being implemented by any chance, spies will be no different.
Also mercenaries ineptitude refil is also strategic not just, HEADsGShoT MEh PLoX with cross hatched eyes and a tongue on the floor.
Yep, I also don't think spies should get a refill for being killed. However, it's easier to kill a spy than a merc given the two sides' equipment, so one could make a valid argument why the spies should get a refill.
Is that a joke? You will never win against anyone with 5 gadgets of each type you selected especially as a spy. You just basically bringing back the worst of SCCT DM and DA versus...
Quote from: Spekkio on February 26, 2011, 12:55:38 AMYou were always able to jump or berserk before being grabbed in this situation.
Not if the grabber is the host... seriously... i tried what you said but i was "airgrabbed" etc.
---
ontopic:
how about this:
Mercs and spies can refill their EQ (GM included) in their (for the enemies) unreachable spawns, but refilling should take 15-30 secs, so that spies would lose much time and mercs have to leave the objectives vulnerable.
Good concept, but I think it should take like 5 seconds for each gadget to refil by 1, and whichever you have selected, so if you have 0 flashbangs, you select them and refil it 1 by 1, so it will take you something like 25 seconds, and same for others.
It is a video game standard to bring back equipment when you die. You have 4 chances to get through the game, and if you don't make it with those chances, you are done. Each new life is a new chance.
I don't even think their should be gadget refills on the map at all. You die: you get new gadgets. Sure, the merc gets new grenades, but you get quite a few seconds of freedom. He has to respawn, run across the map, and relocate you.
If you kill a spy, he gets new equipment, loses 15+ seconds, and has a lone partner on the map. He gets lose 5 flashes back, but he may not have used ANY flashes in his last life. No gain. In this way, the spy has to judge the situations where gadget use would benefit him, and make sure not to run out before he dies. If he does, he dun went and fucked up. If he doesn't use any and dies, the same scenario is in play.
Having gadget refill locations adds another chokepoint to the map, and it has a bigger problem: the spy will be going there because he is low on gadgets. Spies are not equipped to handle a merc very well with no gadgets, and it makes the whole process a waste. If the merc knows one spy is out of gadgets, he can camp easily, knowing he won't be getting cammed by him. If the merc needs a refill, but is out of gasmask, the spy could easily trap him with a series of cams, leaving the other spy to attack that mercs area easily.
Of course there are numerous counters to this problem, but the key is that those counters are to fix problems that would otherwise not be present. The only problems from instant refills on death are countered by the death time. Maybe it should be even longer to make dying a penalty instead of (as your side would say) a reward.
Refill boxes are not the way to go.
The other thing is people who cite realism as a reason for having it... since when was respawning realistic? It should bring back everything, stupid to have it do otherwise.
OBJECTION!
Respawn is real! So is lag!
<Looks at Jesus>
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 27, 2011, 06:35:49 PM
It is a video game standard to bring back equipment when you die. You have 4 chances to get through the game, and if you don't make it with those chances, you are done. Each new life is a new chance.
I don't even think their should be gadget refills on the map at all. You die: you get new gadgets. Sure, the merc gets new grenades, but you get quite a few seconds of freedom. He has to respawn, run across the map, and relocate you.
If you kill a spy, he gets new equipment, loses 15+ seconds, and has a lone partner on the map. He gets lose 5 flashes back, but he may not have used ANY flashes in his last life. No gain. In this way, the spy has to judge the situations where gadget use would benefit him, and make sure not to run out before he dies. If he does, he dun went and fucked up. If he doesn't use any and dies, the same scenario is in play.
Having gadget refill locations adds another chokepoint to the map, and it has a bigger problem: the spy will be going there because he is low on gadgets. Spies are not equipped to handle a merc very well with no gadgets, and it makes the whole process a waste. If the merc knows one spy is out of gadgets, he can camp easily, knowing he won't be getting cammed by him. If the merc needs a refill, but is out of gasmask, the spy could easily trap him with a series of cams, leaving the other spy to attack that mercs area easily.
Of course there are numerous counters to this problem, but the key is that those counters are to fix problems that would otherwise not be present. The only problems from instant refills on death are countered by the death time. Maybe it should be even longer to make dying a penalty instead of (as your side would say) a reward.
Refill boxes are not the way to go.
Refilling equipment is a standard for FPS games where you die frequently, and the game continues until time runs out or someone gets X kills. SvM isn't like other video games, so comparing it to a standard where there are no other games in the genre is disengenuous.
Other games typically don't develop into a situation where there is effectively 1/3 of the map available for play because of objectives being taken. My argument has nothing to do with realism and everything to do with the fact that gameplay in SvM, as it stands now, boils down to 1 chance. It doesn't really matter how many lives you have left, you only have 1 opportunity to win because after that, you have 6 mines and up to 6 spy traps with camnet and 8-16 nades to deal with. If you screw up your 1 rush after a neck, then you lose. If mercs didn't get a refill on death, it adds a new element of strategy to the game...do I deploy my mines/spytraps/nades early, or do I wait to clamp down later in the game?
Quote from: Spekkio on February 28, 2011, 02:29:33 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 27, 2011, 06:35:49 PM
It is a video game standard to bring back equipment when you die. You have 4 chances to get through the game, and if you don't make it with those chances, you are done. Each new life is a new chance.
I don't even think their should be gadget refills on the map at all. You die: you get new gadgets. Sure, the merc gets new grenades, but you get quite a few seconds of freedom. He has to respawn, run across the map, and relocate you.
If you kill a spy, he gets new equipment, loses 15+ seconds, and has a lone partner on the map. He gets lose 5 flashes back, but he may not have used ANY flashes in his last life. No gain. In this way, the spy has to judge the situations where gadget use would benefit him, and make sure not to run out before he dies. If he does, he dun went and fucked up. If he doesn't use any and dies, the same scenario is in play.
Having gadget refill locations adds another chokepoint to the map, and it has a bigger problem: the spy will be going there because he is low on gadgets. Spies are not equipped to handle a merc very well with no gadgets, and it makes the whole process a waste. If the merc knows one spy is out of gadgets, he can camp easily, knowing he won't be getting cammed by him. If the merc needs a refill, but is out of gasmask, the spy could easily trap him with a series of cams, leaving the other spy to attack that mercs area easily.
Of course there are numerous counters to this problem, but the key is that those counters are to fix problems that would otherwise not be present. The only problems from instant refills on death are countered by the death time. Maybe it should be even longer to make dying a penalty instead of (as your side would say) a reward.
Refill boxes are not the way to go.
Refilling equipment is a standard for FPS games where you die frequently, and the game continues until time runs out or someone gets X kills. SvM isn't like other video games, so comparing it to a standard where there are no other games in the genre is disengenuous.
Other games typically don't develop into a situation where there is effectively 1/3 of the map available for play because of objectives being taken. My argument has nothing to do with realism and everything to do with the fact that gameplay in SvM, as it stands now, boils down to 1 chance. It doesn't really matter how many lives you have left, you only have 1 opportunity to win because after that, you have 6 mines and up to 6 spy traps with camnet and 8-16 nades to deal with. If you screw up your 1 rush after a neck, then you lose. If mercs didn't get a refill on death, it adds a new element of strategy to the game...do I deploy my mines/spytraps/nades early, or do I wait to clamp down later in the game?
It would add a whole new element of strategy to the game. Would this only be limited to mercs not refilling after death?
Quote from: CougarC.A.T. on February 28, 2011, 05:24:30 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 28, 2011, 02:29:33 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 27, 2011, 06:35:49 PM
It is a video game standard to bring back equipment when you die. You have 4 chances to get through the game, and if you don't make it with those chances, you are done. Each new life is a new chance.
I don't even think their should be gadget refills on the map at all. You die: you get new gadgets. Sure, the merc gets new grenades, but you get quite a few seconds of freedom. He has to respawn, run across the map, and relocate you.
If you kill a spy, he gets new equipment, loses 15+ seconds, and has a lone partner on the map. He gets lose 5 flashes back, but he may not have used ANY flashes in his last life. No gain. In this way, the spy has to judge the situations where gadget use would benefit him, and make sure not to run out before he dies. If he does, he dun went and fucked up. If he doesn't use any and dies, the same scenario is in play.
Having gadget refill locations adds another chokepoint to the map, and it has a bigger problem: the spy will be going there because he is low on gadgets. Spies are not equipped to handle a merc very well with no gadgets, and it makes the whole process a waste. If the merc knows one spy is out of gadgets, he can camp easily, knowing he won't be getting cammed by him. If the merc needs a refill, but is out of gasmask, the spy could easily trap him with a series of cams, leaving the other spy to attack that mercs area easily.
Of course there are numerous counters to this problem, but the key is that those counters are to fix problems that would otherwise not be present. The only problems from instant refills on death are countered by the death time. Maybe it should be even longer to make dying a penalty instead of (as your side would say) a reward.
Refill boxes are not the way to go.
Refilling equipment is a standard for FPS games where you die frequently, and the game continues until time runs out or someone gets X kills. SvM isn't like other video games, so comparing it to a standard where there are no other games in the genre is disengenuous.
Other games typically don't develop into a situation where there is effectively 1/3 of the map available for play because of objectives being taken. My argument has nothing to do with realism and everything to do with the fact that gameplay in SvM, as it stands now, boils down to 1 chance. It doesn't really matter how many lives you have left, you only have 1 opportunity to win because after that, you have 6 mines and up to 6 spy traps with camnet and 8-16 nades to deal with. If you screw up your 1 rush after a neck, then you lose. If mercs didn't get a refill on death, it adds a new element of strategy to the game...do I deploy my mines/spytraps/nades early, or do I wait to clamp down later in the game?
It would add a whole new element of strategy to the game. Would this only be limited to mercs not refilling after death?
It would if there were no refill points, but that doesn't seem to be the original idea. I have heard of two styles:
1. A point on the map that is accessible by both sides. It creates a choke point that isn't needed and would enable camping.
2. A point reachable by only 1 team. If it was the spawn point, the whole idea is flawed. If it is a different point, then there would most likely be only 1 or 2 paths to it, rending the same flaw as point 1.
No refills? I could go for that. Maybe up the gadget count a bit, but it seems reasonable. If refills must be part of the game, just do it on respawn.
Quote1. A point on the map that is accessible by both sides. It creates a choke point that isn't needed and would enable camping.
This won't be true 100% of the time. In fact, it would only be true if the map was poorly designed. A well designed map would make the mercs move to guard both the ammo refill and the remaining objectives. Additionally, mercs camp...that's what happens when you have to guard objectives that typically don't move. It's part of the game. Camping is only a problem when mercs camp somewhere where they are nearly invulnerable, eg on top of the rails in Sector 2 of Station.
You won't always know if a spy is low on gadgets. Sure, you can guess he is if he spams smokes early, but that doesn't mean he has to go for a refill; he could still choose to attack objectives with what he has left.
Besides, "Chokepoints" are good for the game, provided you can balance out spies and mercs. They create action and force the spies to try to solve a problem, rather than run around objective tapping for 10 minutes like in Club House.
Camping isn't very bad thing at all on some maps, in Steel Squat if you learn the map very properly, you can be in 1 spot and guard more than 4 objectives as one mercenary, and your teammate just comes as a back up.
I think this whole argument can be shortened if you think about the main reason it's so bloody stupid. It's already easy to use up all your gadgets, and you want people to never have a refill? Even if you increased the amount they have, why? It's just absolutely pointless, it adds nothing to the game whatsoever, you're just being stubborn.
Here's my idea for a refil.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg135.imageshack.us%2Fimg135%2F3783%2Fanidea.jpg&hash=402a59b6e8f310219d2c55eca666ede685d1c080)
Note: It should only for with 1 gadget that is being specified by the Production Team, or give an option to choose which 1 gadget the player would like to be able to refil.
Note 2: Same concept goes for the spies.
Note 3: I think it would be fair because when a mercenary looses all of his gadgets he is not really at a disadvantage because he can still kill with bullets without needing much of his arsenal. It's quite a different story for spies since the shadows don't really place a DoT on a mercenary while a spy is trying to grab him or keep him in the shadows.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on February 28, 2011, 02:55:29 PM
I think this whole argument can be shortened if you think about the main reason it's so bloody stupid. It's already easy to use up all your gadgets, and you want people to never have a refill? Even if you increased the amount they have, why? It's just absolutely pointless, it adds nothing to the game whatsoever, you're just being stubborn.
I accept with it.
I think you're going in wrong way guys with trying to change that what don't really need to be changed.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 28, 2011, 11:39:35 AM
Quote1. A point on the map that is accessible by both sides. It creates a choke point that isn't needed and would enable camping.
This won't be true 100% of the time. In fact, it would only be true if the map was poorly designed. A well designed map would make the mercs move to guard both the ammo refill and the remaining objectives. Additionally, mercs camp...that's what happens when you have to guard objectives that typically don't move. It's part of the game. Camping is only a problem when mercs camp somewhere where they are nearly invulnerable, eg on top of the rails in Sector 2 of Station.
You won't always know if a spy is low on gadgets. Sure, you can guess he is if he spams smokes early, but that doesn't mean he has to go for a refill; he could still choose to attack objectives with what he has left.
Besides, "Chokepoints" are good for the game, provided you can balance out spies and mercs. They create action and force the spies to try to solve a problem, rather than run around objective tapping for 10 minutes like in Club House.
A spy with no gadgets is a basically worthless spy when it comes to a confrontation. Sure, he can hack, but he would be easily defeated. Camping the ammo box when one spy needs gadgets would be effective, but near game breaking if you knew both spies were out.
The whole strategic part of being a spy involves the use of your gadgets. I just can't see a way that refills fix anything. No refills at all would work to make gameplay slower and more strategic, but some people already play the game extremely slow. No action for 5 minutes = boring game. Refills seem like a way of adding an extra challenge to the spy, who is already at a disadvantage.
My Suggestion: Refill on death.
My #2 Suggestion: No refills at all, higher number of gadgets at start.
Just a thought: how many times can you refill per life?
Ok, might as well leave it original because this is getting retarded.
Suggestions:
1. Refil on death.
2. Each gadget should be no more than 5 charges.
3. Not many players really survive 1 live and waste all of the gadgets, unless the mercenary lags and/or a a shit shot where burst shooting misses.
QuoteJust a thought: how many times can you refill per life?
As many times as you like. There are a finite amount of X item on the map, it's up to you to decide when to use it.
Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.
As i said... make the refill points in the spawns, and/or merc-/spy-only areas and let them take their time for it.
10% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 1 sec
50% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 5 sec
100% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 10 sec
If you respawn you still get all new EQ like in CT. But you could make merc's respawn time longer than spy's respawn time.
Problem solved(... well MAYBE)
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 03, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.
A chokepoint helps the mapper balance the map. Being stealthy doesn't mean you never have to come face to face with a merc because there are billions of vents the merc can't get to. Stealthy can also mean being 3 feet away from an unknowing merc in a chokepoint area.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on March 03, 2011, 06:24:16 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 03, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.
A chokepoint helps the mapper balance the map. Being stealthy doesn't mean you never have to come face to face with a merc because there are billions of vents the merc can't get to. Stealthy can also mean being 3 feet away from an unknowing merc in a chokepoint area.
I prefer the game where I could be anywhere, and the merc only knows 1/3 of the places I will maybe go to. I don't like the idea of having the maps set up like a list of places that a spy will likely go to and checking between them. You only hack for like 30 seconds out of 10 minutes, but you would need ammo many more times.
I don't like the idea for that reason. It adds an unnecessary area of the map that will become high traffic and a DM playground
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 03, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.
The game isn't JUST about stealth, and making a game with little to no confrontation is boring for all parties involved.
QuoteI prefer the game where I could be anywhere, and the merc only knows 1/3 of the places I will maybe go to. I don't like the idea of having the maps set up like a list of places that a spy will likely go to and checking between them. You only hack for like 30 seconds out of 10 minutes, but you would need ammo many more times.
But in such a wide open area like that, there is never a reason for you to engage the mercs. The game can be won by just staying in inaccessible areas and tapping objectives until it's over.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 03, 2011, 11:11:23 PM
Quote from: Farley4Fan on March 03, 2011, 06:24:16 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 03, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.
A chokepoint helps the mapper balance the map. Being stealthy doesn't mean you never have to come face to face with a merc because there are billions of vents the merc can't get to. Stealthy can also mean being 3 feet away from an unknowing merc in a chokepoint area.
I prefer the game where I could be anywhere, and the merc only knows 1/3 of the places I will maybe go to. I don't like the idea of having the maps set up like a list of places that a spy will likely go to and checking between them. You only hack for like 30 seconds out of 10 minutes, but you would need ammo many more times.
I don't like the idea for that reason. It adds an unnecessary area of the map that will become high traffic and a DM playground
If you don't like that idea then you must not like PT/CT because that's exactly how it was. You need to think about the merc in this case. I'm not saying there shouldn't be multiple routes in the maps, but map knowledge means nothing when a spy can hop in a vent and pop out anywhere/hack anything.
Again, being stealthy doesn't mean you are far away from the mercs at all times. Being stealthy means you are close and they don't know it.
Being stealthy ALSO CAN mean you are close and the mercenary doesn't know it. Being Stealthy is being anonymous and in PS/PT/CT means noone except your team knows where you are...Literally.
You guys are completely wrong.
Spekkio: You say that FPS games refill on death because they are boring and you are supposed to die a lot, and in the next breath say that this game needs checkpoints and stealth isn't the objective. Stealth IS the objective for the spy team, and the mercs objective is to foil the spies plan. Sure, being stealthy doesn't always work, and aggro is a part of the game, but for the most part, you design a stealth game around stealth. My opinion has always been to design for stealth but not limit aggro. Same thing here. The game is not boring because you don't see anything, it is boring because nothing happens. Key difference: sight vs gameplay. If I hack an objective and you never suspected I was there and I make a clean getaway, I have beaten you in every aspect. Maps should be designed with darkness playing a key role. Otherwise why not make day maps and less routes? Stealth is key when thinking about gameplay issues.
Farley: Map knowledge always helps. No doubt. That is why the maps should not include 6 key areas but instead include the whole map in the search. If I use, on average, 3 smokes per life, I will need to hit the ammo box quite a bit. I only need to hack 3 times, but I need to refill my gadgets many more. Do you see where I am going? The ammo boxes will become more important than objectives. Having knowledge of certain vents and pathways will still help immensely.
Quote from: Farley4Fan on March 04, 2011, 12:56:03 AM
Again, being stealthy doesn't mean you are far away from the mercs at all times. Being stealthy means you are close and they don't know it.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on March 04, 2011, 01:02:08 AM
Being stealthy ALSO CAN mean you are close and the mercenary doesn't know it.
Nice contribution there Dread. ;)
I also somehow think that people still want to somehow and for some reason to view Project Stealth stealth same as CT stealth, you might realise that as well, and hell everyone does it because that is the only best comparison.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 03, 2011, 11:11:23 PMI don't like the idea for that reason. It adds an unnecessary area of the map that will become high traffic and a DM playground
Then just make indivudal and safe areas. Like 2 refill boxes per objective or sector.
But these areas should be unaccissible by the other team. for example:
Warehouse mercspawn. And maybe the spy spawn for the spies.
Also refilling should take time:
Quote from: Meister_Neo on March 03, 2011, 03:53:53 PM
As i said... make the refill points in the spawns, and/or merc-/spy-only areas and let them take their time for it.
10% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 1 sec
50% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 5 sec
100% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 10 sec
If you respawn you still get all new EQ like in CT. But you could make merc's respawn time longer than spy's respawn time.
Problem solved(... well MAYBE)
Don't you think guys PS should have everything what was the best in all SvMs? Things which works for years shouldn't be changed because they are working as they should.
I don't imagine that refilling in boxes especially as spy.
Since SCPT you had to die to refill your eq that's something risky and disable you from game for that 10seconds + time of walking to objective.
Same with stealth and aggro, if someone want to play stealth let him do it!
Different people like aggro and they shouldn't have disadvantages while doing it.
Same thing is about grabs and JB. People call Jump "Bug" a bug but in my opinion it balanced game so much, just imagine playing story and fighting with two spions alone without this ''bug'' ping pong and you're dead.
I never cared about JB because it's thing which SHOULD EXIST in that game( That's not a problem till you don't want DM enemies ). You want to grab then take that risk or do something else. If you want to kill mercs all the time then go play DM !
Agreed.
But charging a wall, should make it JBless.
Quote from: KnoogeR on March 04, 2011, 03:34:32 PM
Don't you think guys PS should have everything what was the best in all SvMs? Things which works for years shouldn't be changed because they are working as they should.
I don't imagine that refilling in boxes especially as spy.
Since SCPT you had to die to refill your eq that's something risky and disable you from game for that 10seconds + time of walking to objective.
Same with stealth and aggro, if someone want to play stealth let him do it!
Different people like aggro and they shouldn't have disadvantages while doing it.
Same thing is about grabs and JB. People call Jump "Bug" a bug but in my opinion it balanced game so much, just imagine playing story and fighting with two spions alone without this ''bug'' ping pong and you're dead.
I never cared about JB because it's thing which SHOULD EXIST in that game( That's not a problem till you don't want DM enemies ). You want to grab then take that risk or do something else. If you want to kill mercs all the time then go play DM !
Something that did not work well, and continues to not work well, is the mercs getting equipment on respawn. The end-game becomes multiple times harder when mercs get brand-new equipment by dying or, worse, suiciding for it on purpose.
Now, this might be fixed if PS is more balanced toward spies being able to kill the mercs, but even then you're forcing the spies to go aggro in order to prevent the mercs from suiciding for equipment.
But really, I'm fundamentally opposed to rewarding people for sucking, regardless of whether it's done in FPS games or not. I could equally point to the dozens upon dozens of NES games that used to take away all of your power-ups when you died. The precedent for punishing failure was set long before the precedent for rewarding it.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 04, 2011, 01:38:50 AM
You guys are completely wrong.
Spekkio: You say that FPS games refill on death because they are boring and you are supposed to die a lot, and in the next breath say that this game needs checkpoints and stealth isn't the objective. Stealth IS the objective for the spy team, and the mercs objective is to foil the spies plan. Sure, being stealthy doesn't always work, and aggro is a part of the game, but for the most part, you design a stealth game around stealth. My opinion has always been to design for stealth but not limit aggro. Same thing here. The game is not boring because you don't see anything, it is boring because nothing happens. Key difference: sight vs gameplay. If I hack an objective and you never suspected I was there and I make a clean getaway, I have beaten you in every aspect. Maps should be designed with darkness playing a key role. Otherwise why not make day maps and less routes? Stealth is key when thinking about gameplay issues.
Farley: Map knowledge always helps. No doubt. That is why the maps should not include 6 key areas but instead include the whole map in the search. If I use, on average, 3 smokes per life, I will need to hit the ammo box quite a bit. I only need to hack 3 times, but I need to refill my gadgets many more. Do you see where I am going? The ammo boxes will become more important than objectives. Having knowledge of certain vents and pathways will still help immensely.
No, you have it all wrong.
Did you ever read the email Zedblade got from Ubi regarding one of his maps? Ubi said that they didn't officially endorse it like they did Oilrig because the map did not have the right focus on infiltration. That's another way of saying that it didn't have a chokepoint(s) to force confrontation. It's quite clear from this official statement that Ubisoft did not design the game for the spies to sneak around unseen for 12 minutes, but rather to use stealth to gain a tactical position to attack the mercs and objectives in order to compensate for their lack of directly lethal abilities.
And if that's not enough, the box for PT/CT says that it's a "Stealth Action Multiplayer" game. Notice that's Stealth Action, not just Stealth.
Additionally, it's only a recent phenomenon to replenish all equipment in multiplayer games upon death. Games like Q3A and Counter-Strike, two of the arguably most popular online games ever, take away all of your equipment on death with the exception of a basic weapon. You have to go around the map to find more, and a lot of the metagame strategy in higher skill games for Q3A revolves around controlling the better weapons and armor replenishment, and team money-management in CS.
Quake and Counter Strike are completely different beasts to SvM.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 08, 2011, 02:31:46 AM
Quote from: KnoogeR on March 04, 2011, 03:34:32 PM
Don't you think guys PS should have everything what was the best in all SvMs? Things which works for years shouldn't be changed because they are working as they should.
I don't imagine that refilling in boxes especially as spy.
Since SCPT you had to die to refill your eq that's something risky and disable you from game for that 10seconds + time of walking to objective.
Same with stealth and aggro, if someone want to play stealth let him do it!
Different people like aggro and they shouldn't have disadvantages while doing it.
Same thing is about grabs and JB. People call Jump "Bug" a bug but in my opinion it balanced game so much, just imagine playing story and fighting with two spions alone without this ''bug'' ping pong and you're dead.
I never cared about JB because it's thing which SHOULD EXIST in that game( That's not a problem till you don't want DM enemies ). You want to grab then take that risk or do something else. If you want to kill mercs all the time then go play DM !
Something that did not work well, and continues to not work well, is the mercs getting equipment on refill. The end-game becomes multiple times harder when mercs get brand-new equipment by dying or, worse, suiciding for it on purpose.
Now, this might be fixed if PS is more balanced toward spies being able to kill the mercs, but even then you're forcing the spies to go aggro in order to prevent the mercs from suiciding for equipment.
But really, I'm fundamentally opposed to rewarding people for sucking, regardless of whether it's done in FPS games or not. I could equally point to the dozens upon dozens of NES games that used to take away all of your power-ups when you died. The precedent for punishing failure was set long before the precedent for rewarding it.
Equipment on refil? I suppose you mean on every respawn? Now the way I see it you have a problem of mercenaries suicidng and not respawning with refilled gadgets? So that way, I can just win the game alone, since all of my sticky cameras will put him asleep if he hasn't got a gas mask?
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on March 08, 2011, 05:31:45 AM
Quake and Counter Strike are completely different beasts to SvM.
Way to follow the conversation. I said that 4 posts ago.
It still doesn't make any sense at all, how can you deprive a mercenary from getting a refil?
You can look at it like this. A mercenary dies, another one comes from the helicopter, what he is going to come only with a rifle and no gadgets just because that guy who got his neck stole all of his gadget from his locker?
Quote from: DreadStunLock on March 08, 2011, 12:02:01 PM
It still doesn't make any sense at all, how can you deprive a mercenary from getting a refil?
You can look at it like this. A mercenary dies, another one comes from the helicopter, what he is going to come only with a rifle and no gadgets just because that guy who got his neck stole all of his gadget from his locker?
I think you're missing the point. Spekkio is going on about how Merc's can simply suicide to get more gadgets. You can say "But they lose a life, so it's fair", but in all reality it does give off the impression that they are being rewarded for killing themselves. Considering it's not the Spy that's killing them, the spy being fully aware that they are giving the Merc a full loadout. Instead it's the Merc simply "reloading" their gadgets.
While the gadget idea Spekkio brings up sound unique... I always worry, when thinking about it, that Spies will die more often because they may spawn with no gadgets, or nearing the end of a round nobody has any gadgets. Which sounds like it'd be boring. I'd much rather that suicides/team kills just give a longer respawning period for the victim involved.. or something like that.
I'd agree only if:
Suicidal requires more seconds to respawn.
Nothing more, if spies have a problem mercenaries suiciding, they are forgetting the fact that they have 1 mercenary to deal with, and 1 mercenary cannot watch 2 objectives at once(Unless the PC's are positioned that way)
Also, spies get refilled upon death too, so what is there to bitch about? It's also spies job to prevent a mercenary from suiciding as much as possible.
Why not punish mercs with longer spawn times, and respawns that are further away? Hell, have a slowly opening door or a 3 second animation of the hud flickering on and off and then starting?
While the mercs do get a refill on death, they also lose 35+ seconds of gametime. That is multiple objectives with a 2 v 1 advantage for spies.
Make 2.5-3x more spawn time on suicide if you don't like suicide refills.
But in my opinion suicide refills are fine.
No this is not a good idea... that would mean mercs getting killed by their own mines or a "blocking spy that hits the merc in the same frame, the mercs uses his nade and gets away but merc dies"-ed Merc would have an unfair disadvantage compared to normal neckbreaked Mercs.
So either let it be as it is, or give merc and spy also (maybe) just a overall longer respawn time, so that dying makes it hard for the mate to go on on either team
(if there are any orthographic/grammatical errors in this post, or in any of my posts in the future, you can keep them and, if you want, hang them over your bed ;))
QuoteWhile the gadget idea Spekkio brings up sound unique... I always worry, when thinking about it, that Spies will die more often because they may spawn with no gadgets, or nearing the end of a round nobody has any gadgets.
Ending the game with no gadgets would be anything but boring. Think of trying to beat Orphanage attic when it's mined up vs. when the mercs are out. It's a totally different game. Hell, a situation like missile sector 2 might be possible to beat if equipment was actually exhaustable.
Besides, to get to that point you would have had to use all of your alotted gadgets plus the refills that are available on the map. By doing so, you were taking a gamble to win the game quickly and early, which clearly didn't work at this point.
@Snakebit: Others covered it...you can't make the game smart enough to know the difference between an actual suicide and a "suicide" by getting killed by a spy.
Again, though, I go back to the fundamental reason why you shouldn't refill equipment on death, and that is that you are rewarding suckage and promoting gadget spam. Suiciding for more equipment is an unavoidable symptom of that, but it's not the cause.
@Cronky,
As I pointed out, my idea is anything but unique. It has been done in successful multiplayer games well before SvM was ever invented.
Meister, PS developers can always take their time and make something like.
Spy tazer hit mine, mercenary die = no added respawn time penalty.
Spy proximity detonating a mine, mercenary die = no added respawn time penalty or something, + killing a mercenary with a mine should reward a spy, it's not an easy feat.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 09, 2011, 12:06:29 AM
Ending the game with no gadgets would be anything but boring. Think of trying to beat Orphanage attic when it's mined up vs. when the mercs are out. It's a totally different game. Hell, a situation like missile sector 2 might be possible to beat if equipment was actually exhaustable.
Besides, to get to that point you would have had to use all of your alotted gadgets plus the refills that are available on the map. By doing so, you were taking a gamble to win the game quickly and early, which clearly didn't work at this point.
I just said I worry about it. Sure, it sounds fun on paper, and yes it's your own fault if you're nearing the end of a round and have no gadgets to refill, but it might not always be fun. Some may find the tense moments that follow you depleting your last gadget a ton of fun, others may not.
The upside to getting a refill upon death though isn't that you get more gadgets, it's that you're consistent throughout the whole round. You have one less thing to worry about. Even if your last life was nothing but a crapshoot, you start your next one with a clean slate. The disadvantage being that some people (mainly Mercs) can take advantage of that aspect of the gameplay to simply refill their gadgets on the idea that the life's gadgets will be wasted otherwise. (If you win with 2 lives left, then you "wasted" a life's worth of gadgets)
I like both ideas, and think both should be included because it will indeed give a change of playstyle depending on which is used. Also, and I'm talking out my ass now, it sounds like something that Mappers could take advantage of to make different types of levels. So if both are possible, I would rather see that.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 09, 2011, 12:06:29 AM
@Cronky,
As I pointed out, my idea is anything but unique. It has been done in successful multiplayer games well before SvM was ever invented.
I meant unique in terms of SvM gameplay. It hasn't been seen in this before (because PT/CT didn't do it) so it's unique to me.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on March 09, 2011, 12:18:46 AM
Meister, PS developers can always take their time and make something like.
Spy tazer hit mine, mercenary die = no added respawn time penalty.
Spy proximity detonating a mine, mercenary die = no added respawn time penalty or something, + killing a mercenary with a mine should reward a spy, it's not an easy feat.
lol it's not hard... the spy just needs luck to be near a merc, while he places a mine.
1 taze/1 cam and game over for the merc.
(or he must know the merc-player well to remember where he always/usually/most often puts his mines)
Also... what about "mate, kill me!"? You could say that teamkills must increase the respawn time as well... but what if...
...my Mate's nade misses the spy and kills me instead, or when a merc throws a nade at his grabbed merc mate to kill the spy, while he himself must face the other spy?
well?
If your teammate kills you by mistake, it's his fault, and that doesn't matter, for stupidity like this spies should be rewarded. It's your problem that your teams can't teamwork.
Quote from: Meister_Neo on March 09, 2011, 03:54:41 PM[...]or when a merc throws a nade at his grabbed merc mate to kill the spy, while he himself must face the other spy?
well?
You didn't answer this one yet... if this happens, then the spy would respawn much sooner than the merc and a 2on1 situation would arise... if the merc tried to snipe the spy instead... he maybe could kill him, but if that spy manages to break the neck fast enough, and the second spy grabs the sniping merc?! Then it wouldn't be 2on1, but 1on0 :O GG
so in this case the devs should switch off the respawn time extender too(from the moment a merc gets grabbed), because otherwise a grabbed merc would mean a 99% sure 2on1 situation...
I have a feeling you're all a bunch of noobs at CT from the way you're talking... ::)
I'll have fun destroying you guys at PS.
Quote from: tigaer on March 10, 2011, 02:30:24 AM
I have a feeling you're all a bunch of noobs at CT from the way you're talking... ::)
I'll have fun destroying you guys at PS.
WHHHAT !?! :@ !!!
with that being said, those are some fightin' words and I will uninstall chaostheory / never buy a ubisoft product ever again when PS is ready.
Quote from: tigaer on March 10, 2011, 02:30:24 AM
I have a feeling you're all a bunch of noobs at CT from the way you're talking... ::)
I'll have fun destroying you guys at PS.
Using your ub3r admin powers? :D
Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 10, 2011, 04:13:25 AM
with that being said, those are some fightin' words and I will uninstall chaostheory / never buy a ubisoft product ever again when PS is ready.
What with Ubisoft's apparently controversial "Wii Dare" (link below), it's only a matter of time before Ubisoft creates a video game all about receiving blowjobs and having hot, steamy sex with girls WAAAAY out of your league.
What will you do then Agent...
what.
will.
you.
do.
Link to the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3AfGrN9UsM&feature=player_embedded
;)
Quote from: Cronky on March 13, 2011, 02:01:05 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 10, 2011, 04:13:25 AM
with that being said, those are some fightin' words and I will uninstall chaostheory / never buy a ubisoft product ever again when PS is ready.
What with Ubisoft's apparently controversial "Wii Dare" (link below), it's only a matter of time before Ubisoft creates a video game all about receiving blowjobs and having hot, steamy sex with girls WAAAAY out of your league.
What will you do then Agent...
what.
will.
you.
do.
Link to the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3AfGrN9UsM&feature=player_embedded
;)
not buy the game , then dial up ur mom for the evening ;) .
Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 13, 2011, 02:38:28 PM
not buy the game , then dial up ur mom for the evening ;) .
Hahahaha
I'm torn as to which part of your response was funnier. Either the simple fact that the comeback you used was pretty funny by itself. Or, that you essentially said that you think my mom is waaaaaay out of your league.
Either way, you done good by me Agent. ;D
Quote from: Cronky on March 13, 2011, 02:01:05 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 10, 2011, 04:13:25 AM
with that being said, those are some fightin' words and I will uninstall chaostheory / never buy a ubisoft product ever again when PS is ready.
What with Ubisoft's apparently controversial "Wii Dare" (link below), it's only a matter of time before Ubisoft creates a video game all about receiving blowjobs and having hot, steamy sex with girls WAAAAY out of your league.
What will you do then Agent...
what.
will.
you.
do.
Link to the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3AfGrN9UsM&feature=player_embedded
;)
Hii will Dare
:-*
Until they create a holographic projection which un-does your pants buttons the sex games are lame, if anyone seen the film with Arnold Schwarznegger where he gets cloned you will know what i am talking about :P
They could also have made somekind of an alternative method to Kinect because the way I see it now is kind of poop :P