How about integrating a mode specially designed for new players of the game? Say give the people infinite equipment to experiment with and master, infinite time/lives, ability to switch teams, switch map quicker than going back to lobby, tutor mode ( where spies/mercs can talk to eachother, was on console, not sure about PC ), maybe guidlines that show players main map points? Pretty much this mode is just to train, screw around, learn maps, form strategies, and master equipment.
This shouldn't be too hard to make and I think it would be a good addition and would help noobs get better, making it a more competitive community.
Yes? No? qfe
IMO hard and long training is really neeeded. WHY ?
Cause the more challenging it is, the less noobs you will see in the game. PPL shouldnt be allowed to play multi if they didnt pass the training.
I dont want to see ppl with flares instead of nades anymore :(
Personally, I am for 'yes'. However, let's keep focused on the game first.
Quote from: neth on September 22, 2007, 10:21:13 AM
IMO hard and long training is really neeeded. WHY ?
Cause the more challenging it is, the less noobs you will see in the game. PPL shouldnt be allowed to play multi if they didnt pass the training.
I dont want to see ppl with flares instead of nades anymore :(
Yeah, nothing more depressing than pulling up your backpack and seeing your partners loadout consists of flares, tazer, backpack and spytraps
omfg I got the best training mode evar: play the fucking game.
If noobs play the game they get owned and end up quitting a week later. They need a mode where they can go and not have to worry about running out of equipment, have the whole map opened up, and not worry about getting blown up by a merc coming out of the spawn, not worry about losing all of his lives in the first 2 minutes, etc. Whenever I play noobs at the game, I try to add them to my friends list so I can help them get better. A few weeks later they will tell me that they don't even play the game anymore.
It just really needs a decent training mode so that the noobs actually know where to go and what to bring and stuff like that.
Um, no? I played the game, got owned, then kept playing and got better. No matter how comprehensive a training program is, it'll never fully prepare you for the actual game.
Um, yes? People play the game, get owned, and leave. Since this game requires time to get good at, most people quit before they get good. They say " OMG this game is laggy, the mercs are hacking " and leave. That is why this game doesn't have big community like halo or gears of war, they aren't too hard to get good at. This game needs a training mode where maybe they fight AI that isn't too hard. They learn maps/equipment/controls easier.
I would rather have them know the maps/equipment/controls before they actually play the game and piss everyone else off who is on their team.
once again, people who can't stand defeats will never get pro. the best way to improve is playing as many games with better players as possible and watching replays, especially of one's own games and of tournaments. implementing ut's replay mode for ps would do way much better than any tutor mode or complex ban system or any other bullshit.
I don't understand how it can be possible to make a mode where both sides win.
rofl ;D
It's called Fun league. Where the first goal is Fun and not to win. Hurray!
Both teams fight eachother, but they both have infinite lives and equipment and the whole map is open. Also tutor mode is on and you spawn faster, like instantly. This way they learn the maps, equipment, controls, and they get some experience by fighting one another. I didn't say both sides win. ???
just drop the idea that you got good ideas.
ok .. one thing i Never got about scct is why the hell did they give the merc the option of Flares and a flash light.. i think it should be either you sacrifice one for the other, because in my opinion, if you kept the merc to just having flares .. it would add more intensity to the game and, then once that flare goes out your left in the dark with the spies x) !.. last resort, the laser and your visions =) !.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on September 23, 2007, 04:48:43 AM
ok .. one thing i Never got about scct is why the hell did they give the merc the option of Flares and a flash light.. i think it should be either you sacrifice one for the other, because in my opinion, if you kept the merc to just having flares .. it would add more intensity to the game and, then once that flare goes out your left in the dark with the spies x) !.. last resort, the laser and your visions =) !.
cause flares are freakin' awesome...they just aren't worth sacrificing another make or brake gadget for them
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg171.imageshack.us%2Fimg171%2F7461%2Funtitledya1.th.jpg&hash=0ab8a46c8dbe007a25665ab1e12fb6fe01e9e58a) (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledya1.jpg)
Quote from: Gawain on September 23, 2007, 01:46:40 AM
just drop the idea that you got good ideas.
Drop the idea that you think you know everything.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 22, 2007, 08:20:17 PM
Um, no? I played the game, got owned, then kept playing and got better. No matter how comprehensive a training program is, it'll never fully prepare you for the actual game.
This is the answer that everyone is looking for. Read it 3 more times b/c it is THE ONLY LOGICAL/RATIONAL explanation on how to train. It's called a learning curve.
I understand that completely. But only a few people actually take the time to get owned and learn through experience, most of them get owned and then just leave. You ever wonder why there is barely a community? If there was an easier training mode for people to play then I think it would increase the numberes of the community.
Quote from: Gawain on September 22, 2007, 10:52:09 PM
implementing ut's replay mode for ps would do way much better than any tutor mode or complex ban system or any other bullshit.
That's for sure.
Quote from: monterto on September 23, 2007, 05:19:06 AM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on September 23, 2007, 04:48:43 AM
ok .. one thing i Never got about scct is why the hell did they give the merc the option of Flares and a flash light.. i think it should be either you sacrifice one for the other, because in my opinion, if you kept the merc to just having flares .. it would add more intensity to the game and, then once that flare goes out your left in the dark with the spies x) !.. last resort, the laser and your visions =) !.
cause flares are freakin' awesome...they just aren't worth sacrificing another make or brake gadget for them
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg171.imageshack.us%2Fimg171%2F7461%2Funtitledya1.th.jpg&hash=0ab8a46c8dbe007a25665ab1e12fb6fe01e9e58a) (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledya1.jpg)
Murdoc you completley dodged the bullet ,and still i haven't gotten a real answer to my idea..Soo what does everyone else think ?
OMG THE GAME IS TOO TOUGH LET'S MAEK IT NUB FRINDLY!
Double Agent, anyone?
That isn't the point of the training mode. It is to make the noobs better and give us better competition.
I can already see that as the new death match. Thousand of servers like those, and 2 story servers...Spekkio already won this thread, best way to get better is to keep playing.
That's the problem. Once people get owned they stop playing.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on September 23, 2007, 04:48:43 AM
ok .. one thing i Never got about scct is why the hell did they give the merc the option of Flares and a flash light.. i think it should be either you sacrifice one for the other, because in my opinion, if you kept the merc to just having flares .. it would add more intensity to the game and, then once that flare goes out your left in the dark with the spies x) !.. last resort, the laser and your visions =) !.
This might end up being a nice idea...atleast it would make flares atleast a bit more useful than what they are right now.
to elaborate this further and to everyone else who don't know whats going on , is this : To make Flares a more a more Useable item, so what I had thought was, Make flash light have a battery span much like gasmask then once they run out of it , they would have no choice but to use flares.
i don't think nerfing flashlight is a good idea. in fact, it needs a little boost with no mt nightvision and darker maps. flares need a big boost, eg be reloadable at ammunition depots, burn longer etc. another idea is to replace flares with boosted phosphourus nades.
Good idea^ What if flares had a burning effect like phosphorus and lit up the room?
Agent_X's idea sucks.
The problem is that flares overlap with other functions that the merc has unconditionally -- flashlight, laser, and specialty visions. There's nothing you can do about that. Flares = light source. Flashlight = light source. Taking away the flashlight in return for flares isn't going to make me or anyone else more inclined to take them.
Just replace flares with phospho grenades from PT in PS. Still relatively useless, but at least they don't overlap in function with another equipment item.
we could replace flares with phosphorous nades that burn brigthely for some seconds if one shoots at it. phosphourus nades were quite fun as a novelty item in pt days and with a little boost like the one suggested could change into a useful gadget.
Why dont we just get rid of the backpack. I know that almost everyone uses it (so do I) but notice that because of it many cool gadgets became not used. If there's no bp, ppl will use spy traps, camnet or phosphorous (if added) more often. phos. nades would become useful because they could be used ie. as fake frags. Besides that would make the game more challenging, faster-paced and less predictable.
PS. I know that some of you use camnet, but ppl mostly choose bp, cause they dont want to lose 4 additional nades.
PS2. Why not make phos. nades detect spies for about 20-30sec when hit by.
Double backpack is a personal preference, and definitely hinders the merc's ability to find spies. I know a lot of people who use camnet/spytraps, myself included. I think spy traps are a little weak for multiple reasons. A total of 5 with the ability to place them vertically would help. Perhaps in PS your partner shouldn't be able to remove traps/bullets as well, but idk.
Phospho grenades can be used at bottlenecks to delay spies or make them show up on EMF. Plus they're really good for faking the spies out since they sound like normal grenades. Are they worth sacrificing something else for? Probably not, but they're more useful than flares.
You know, the thing is taking away bp's would result in showing up more game styles. Now its obvious that you mostly choose bps cause its easier to have 8 nades instead of 4 but isnt that a bit boring ?
I mean, come on, wouldnt you have to be (as a merc) more careful when you knew that you dont have more mines left or as a spy when you had to avoid camnet light or spy traps/sensors all the time instead of spamming the same places with chaffs all the time ?
I lately changed my merc eq:
1. Tazer
2. Mines
3. Spytraps
4. Camnet/ or Mask, depends on map.
Quote from: neth on September 24, 2007, 07:28:21 PM
You know, the thing is taking away bp's would result in showing up more game styles. Now its obvious that you mostly choose bps cause its easier to have 8 nades instead of 4 but isnt that a bit boring ?
I mean, come on, wouldnt you have to be (as a merc) more careful when you knew that you dont have more mines left or as a spy when you had to avoid camnet light or spy traps/sensors all the time instead of spamming the same places with chaffs all the time ?
People suicided for equipment all the time in PT. Honestly, I don't think this is that big of a deal, nor do I think that dual backpack is the optimal equipment loadout.
I think suicide for refill of eq is quite lame actually. And we wanted Project Stealth to be balanced? Commiting suicide for eq just shows you how to unbalance the game. More eq for mercs + extra bp while the spies are dead...why not just hand them the match on a silver platter?
Whatever...refill the eq...
1. More often than not, both spies will die at separate times. You can't suicide risk-free unless both spies die within a couple seconds of each other.
2. Suiciding uses up a merc life. Last I checked, elimination can still win the game.
IMO if ppl want to play lame and suicide themselves to get eq let them do so, its their way of playing. Im just saying that it would be cool if ppl played with different eq.
Well, camnet requires teamwork. If you're going to just look through camnet and not tell your partner where the spies are, well, then it's useless. Spy traps, while nifty at times, could use a buff. There's nothing wrong with the backpack itself.
How about there is a little armory at the spawn that lets you refill only 4 grenades per life ( maybe phosphorus nades as well ). Like CT we could have the little ammo crates scattered around the map. You can refill 4 grenades per life total. This way you could still get the usefulness of a backpack, but not have it take up one of your equipment slots. Flares/phosphorus/spytrap/camnet would become used more frequently and they wouldn't be useless.
BTW has it been confirmed that phosphorus nades will be in the game or not?
Yea, cuz you know, we really need to make mercs stronger by giving them the benefit of free equipment reloads. They weren't winning enough games when their equipment reload takes up a gadget slot.
Last I checked it was way more costly to die as a spy than it was as a merc. Granted mercs dying by any means can turn the game around rapidly. The scenarios go usually to the wire. Say a merc uses all of his shit, barely holding his weight but he kills a spy knowing he can get to a certian position before him or his buddy in order to protect it once more with new mines and nades. You can say what you want on this one and try to be as valid as need be, but I'm always going to think its a bitch move. N need to kill yourself for exrta eq. Completely can throw some of the games. For some matches the point of the spy is to make him use all of his shit...including gasmask. Its a wise choice to kill yourself so u can get everything back. Spies don't usually kill themselves b/c they desperately need the one piece of eq. They naturally have more, and none of their eq can really kill a merc (cept for sleeping near a mine)...elimination takes a lot more if you're playing a good team. There is no real way to stop a merc from killing himself, and never will be I feel. I just personally think its a bitch thing to do.
P.S. Spekkio hugged Mike Ahck
Well that would be just one way that we could free up an equipment spot to make room for novelty items. phospho, flares, tazer, spy traps would be used more.
agree. refilling gadgets near resp points is a good idea but i feel that some ppl will kill themselves anyway
I'm reading alot of great ideas, I was thinking any of you hate how some people camp ther spawn after they know ther about to lose or just to erch you. Well what about a spawn timer like on Perfect Dark Zero wher that had like a pre thing got ther weps thay wanted and then it made them spawn, be nice if ther was somthing like that, a litte bit longer then the PDZ one but if its possple the go in and a timer starts if ther in ther for to long it respawns them back out side (under the cover of darkness and shadow away from mercs not to far from ther base so they dont spawn on the oppest side of the map lol say like 2-3 meters) same for mercs too. It was annoying when noobs or just jack asss camped in ther sapwns
Quote from: Kok4f4n on September 24, 2007, 07:36:31 PM
I lately changed my merc eq:
1. Tazer
2. Mines
3. Spytraps
4. Camnet/ or Mask, depends on map.
this only show us how much of a n00b you are, but its nothing new (to me at least).
Quote from: neth on September 24, 2007, 07:05:06 PM
Why dont we just get rid of the backpack.
...
PS. I know that some of you use camnet, but ppl mostly choose bp, cause they dont want to lose 4 additional nades.
wrong. maybe some crappy console players like you do that, but as spekkio said stealth totally screws you without at least one merc using camnet/spytraps.
Quote from: Papa Skull on September 25, 2007, 07:38:03 AM
Well that would be just one way that we could free up an equipment spot to make room for novelty items. phospho, flares, tazer, spy traps would be used more.
spytraps are definitely no novelty item, and phoshorous nades wouldn't need to be with a boost. spies leave footsteps, can't hide in the dark anymore and lighten up on emf. by adding a larger radius/longer timers/the burning feature, it could become as useful as spytraps. you could increase the number, but i'm against spamming. we would see more variety by boosting already existent but underused gadgets instead of introducing new fancy "features" for brain dead newbis that have no real drawback.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 25, 2007, 06:42:13 AM
Yea, cuz you know, we really need to make mercs stronger by giving them the benefit of free equipment reloads. They weren't winning enough games when their equipment reload takes up a gadget slot.
qfe
Quote from: deathcrow666 on September 25, 2007, 11:14:57 AM
It was annoying when noobs or just jack asss camped in ther sapwns
how about not playing with n00bs?
Quote from: Gawain on September 25, 2007, 01:55:46 PM
Quote from: Kok4f4n on September 24, 2007, 07:36:31 PM
I lately changed my merc eq:
1. Tazer
2. Mines
3. Spytraps
4. Camnet/ or Mask, depends on map.
this only show us how much of a n00b you are, but its nothing new (to me at least).
How come my eq is a n00b one?
gas mask and frag nades are an obligatory gadget choice, and the tazer is not only pretty useless in ct (range/shotgun/merc moves), all other eq besides flares is way stronger. taking a crappy gadget loadout doesn't make you pro...
in general though i'd like to see a gadget balance that allows more viable eqs (there are 70 (!) possible combinations with 4 out of 8)
Just because i don't really use frags i don't have any better option for eq to take.
Also the gasmask isn't really obligatory - i don't take it on muse/ orph/ factory/ missile, just because i don't get cammed alot there.
Well it is harder to cam someone/get cammed in a large or open map. Museum I always bring mask, I get cammed probably the most there. But for Orphanage, factory, missile, it isn't as necessary as Aquarius, Club House, or Station. But I usually bring Gas Mask anyways, since there is always that chance that I'll be running for an objective and he has a cam set up somewhere.
My Equipment In Most Cases:
Gas Mask
Frags
Mines
Backpack
And that is really the standard equipment selection in my experience. Ever pulled out your backpack and saw that equipment on your partners? Since each of those gadgets are pretty much irreplaceable and render most other gadgets useless to the point where you never need them.
What I would like to see is something that brings variation rather than just the same old same old. Possibly an armory at the spawn that lets you change gadgets or refill them once per life? This would make the backpack a little less useful, but still pretty useful, but useless to the point where you don't need it. This would free up a spot on your equipment to possibly make room for cam net, phospho, taser.
Any other ideas?
Whoa this got off topic lol
On some maps I know that Ducus takes frags/camnet/spy traps/gasmask. I actually think it works well on factory, which has limited places to put mines. The other merc can use his 3 mines in a couple key locations, and that's it. Lochang takes backpack/traps/mines/mask sometimes while I took frags/mines/camnet/gasmask, and it worked well for us in the CT tourney. I would just cover the areas that would possibly require having frags. But you'd be surprised how much less you need to rely on them when you have camnet + 3 spy traps + 6 mines strewn about the map.
Again, if you're playing with a random teammate then camnet is relatively useless since you need communication to use it. Spy traps are a little underpowered, so the result is you see most people using double backpack with mines. That doesn't mean it's the best loadout or the only viable one.
As far as the tazer goes, it, too, overlaps with an inherent merc ability: the bullcharge. In PT not only was the tazer much longer, the bullcharge didn't knock out a spy. The only way to make it more useful is to get rid of the overlap, which means that the bullcharge wouldn't KO anymore. I don't know if that would be a good idea.
Quotein general though i'd like to see a gadget balance that allows more viable eqs (there are 70 (!) possible combinations with 4 out of Cool
I agree. I think the best method would be the following:
mercs-'High explosive grenades': 5 grenades instead of 4. Having more to start will decrease reliance on backpack). Refillable by 2 via Equipment Bag
-5 'laser-tripped tracking devices', 3 replacements in backpack. Allow them to be placed veritcally. Tracking Devices cannot be 'removed' by your partner. Decrease duration to 1 minute from 1:40 (IIRC). Timer resets every time you hit a new spy trap.
-'Security Network System' is restricted to normal vision + flashlight
-'Stun Gun' is lengthened SLIGHTLY
-flares are replaced by 'Incendiary Grenades.' These grenades 'burn' spies while they are in the flourescant (sp) yellow smoke cloud, which would kill them outright if they don't move in 10 seconds. They also light spies up on EMF for 1 minute after they leave the dust cloud. Timer re-sets if they re-enter the dust cloud. Dust cloud lingers for 15 seconds. Start with 5, refillable by 2 in Equipment Bag
-Mines are fine as-is, although the poison kill timer should be 10 sec instead of 15.
-'Equipment Bag' is fine as-is
Spies-Fix the ability to hear 'Spy Infiltration Suit' from throughout the map
-Slightly nerf the slowdown from 'Gas grenades' (reduces reliance on mask). If you go back and play PT, smoke grenades weren't nearly as good as slowing down mercs.
-'Homing devices' are not removable by the merc's partner. Decrease duration to 1 minute from 1:40(IIRC). Device "proximity radar" works even when the merc isn't moving near it. Timer resets if shot with device again.
-'Diversion devices' make the same firing noise from PT, which is barely any noise at all
-Make 'electronic disruption grenades' not work through walls
-'Personnel stealth reconnaissance device' is fine
-Flashbangs are fine, and quite frankly, I'm not coming up with a new name for something that's been used in 9,000 other games in the same exact way.
-cams are fine. Just remove that god-awful "feature" of going to last cam when you go to fire the next one.
--------------------------
The tracking device timers might be a little short at 1 minute long, but that can always be tweaked. The point is that by taking away the partner's removal ability, you make these gadgets much more useful again.
NOTE: I didn't include bugs under the assumption that the PS devs will actually fix them.
EDIT: changed names to show how stupid this copyright shit is.
I think the replacement for flares as a harmful piece of equipment isn't necessary. How many times do I here that the mercs are far too over-powering compared to the spy. Didn't you just say this a few posts ago? Another weapon that can kill the spy isn't necessary at all.
The point is to make all the equipment viable and more balanced. Furthermore, mercs still only have 4 slots, and realistically the incendiary grenade will not kill a spy all by itself; the spy would have to be braindead to sit in the damage cloud for 10 seconds, and there's always the option to be healed by your teammate. The damage part is just going to force him to move, ie force him out of hiding, and when you do he's lit up on EMF so you can shoot at him. That's the purpose of the grenade. The little damage he incurs would help in killing him after, but I can't imagine anyone losing more than 1/5 of their health from the particles alone (which would entail staying in the cloud for two full seconds). It has the added bonus of sounding just like a 'HE grenade', so the spy can be faked out.
My point about the equipment reload is that it frees up a gadget slot, thus making mercs have an automatic backpack. In practice, this basically increases the amount of gadgets he can carry to 5. That is a clear and significant buff to mercs. Changing flares, which are 100% useless due to function overlap, to incendiary grenades doesn't free up a slot. It just merely presents the mercs with more choice of viable equipment. They will still have to sacrifice part of the current status-quo to carry them. If the grenade is no more powerful than any other piece of equipment, it's not a buff at all -- merely an additional choice. The incendiary grenade sacrifices some killing power for tracking power. How many times do you scathe a spy with a frag grenade? Now imagine you do that with the incendiary grenade...the damage is nearly negligible, but now he's lit up on EMF for the next minute. It's something to consider rather than "oh, light device...hey wait, I have a flashlight, what do I need these for again?"
so is the inciniary nade ganna act like the old phosphor nade?
i loved those things.
Basically, with the added benefit of slowly doing damage if a spy parks himself in the smoke cloud. gmo I renamed it because of copyright. The incendiary grenade sacrifices some killing power for tracking power. How many times do you scathe a spy with a frag grenade and he runs off to some unknown place? Now imagine you do that with the incendiary grenade...the damage is nearly negligible, but now he's lit up on EMF and leaves footprints for the next minute. It's something to consider rather than "oh, light device...hey wait, I have a flashlight, what do I need these for again?"
Attaboy
Quote from: Spekkio on September 25, 2007, 05:39:35 PM
As far as the tazer goes, it, too, overlaps with an inherent merc ability: the bullcharge. In PT not only was the tazer much longer, the bullcharge didn't knock out a spy. The only way to make it more useful is to get rid of the overlap, which means that the bullcharge wouldn't KO anymore. I don't know if that would be a good idea.
The problem with the taser isn't the overlap, it' sthe fact that it just doesn't have enough range anymore. The taser doesn't overlap with charge, it tends to overlap more with just the gun bash your merc does when he's too tired to charge or berserk, because that's about the same range. In fact, most of the time you can't even taser a spy who rushes you and elbows you, and that just sucks. Seriously, if it had some range, it'd be useable.
Quote
-'High explosive grenades': 5 grenades instead of 4. Having more to start will decrease reliance on backpack). Refillable by 2 via Equipment Bag
Why more frags? I mean it's already one of the most popular merc choices out there. No need to give people more of them.
Quote-'Security Network System' is restricted to normal vision + flashlight
I assume you mean that you can't hear security failure messages while in EMF or MT. That'd be a pretty huge nerf. I'm not sure if I'd want that.
Quote
-'Stun Gun' is lengthened SLIGHTLY
Taser needs a big boost, because right now it's useless. I mean, it's not that I have better things to take, it's that the taser literally does almost nothing.
Quote
-flares are replaced by 'Incendiary Grenades.' These grenades 'burn' spies while they are in the flourescant (sp) yellow smoke cloud, which would kill them outright if they don't move in 10 seconds. They also light spies up on EMF for 1 minute after they leave the dust cloud. Timer re-sets if they re-enter the dust cloud. Dust cloud lingers for 15 seconds. Start with 5, refillable by 2 in Equipment Bag
I wonder what would happen if we had incendiary grenades always be instanades that explode instantly on contact with a surface (or the spy). It'd be another added edge over frags anyway, and insta-grenades like this wouldn't be unbalanced since they allow the spy ample time to get out of the area.
Only problem I can see is that you can potentially lock down an objective with these things for awhile. A full pack of 5 incendiaries can lock down an objective for 1 minute and 15 seconds. That might be too good... I imagine if you've got that close game near the end where you're guarding an objective, you can just spam that objective with incendiaries and the spy pretty much can't do anything. Even if he KOs you, the burning cloud lasts long enough for you to get up.
Quote from: Gawain on September 25, 2007, 02:51:17 PM
doesn't make you pro...
I guess calling someone a noob and a crappy console player makes you real pro ?
Oh wait, it makes you a whiner ?
Woops! You missed the turn for the topic. Please make a U turn and go back 3 miles!
QuoteWhy more frags? I mean it's already one of the most popular merc choices out there. No need to give people more of them.
Two reasons:
1. The number 4 just doesn't make any sense to me.
2. Reduce the reliance on backpack.
Yes, they are popular. However, with no insta-grenades, they'd kill a lot less often.
QuoteThe taser doesn't overlap with charge, it tends to overlap more with just the gun bash your merc does when he's too tired to charge or berserk, because that's about the same range. In fact, most of the time you can't even taser a spy who rushes you and elbows you, and that just sucks. Seriously, if it had some range, it'd be useable.
I already included a range increase. The PT range was too extreme, which is why I said somewhere inbetween is best. Even then, it will still overlap with the charge.
QuoteI assume you mean that you can't hear security failure messages while in EMF or MT. That'd be a pretty huge nerf. I'm not sure if I'd want that.
No. I was referring to a gadget. You know, that "eye in the sky" thing.
Quote
Only problem I can see is that you can potentially lock down an objective with these things for awhile. A full pack of 5 incendiaries can lock down an objective for 1 minute and 15 seconds. That might be too good... I imagine if you've got that close game near the end where you're guarding an objective, you can just spam that objective with incendiaries and the spy pretty much can't do anything. Even if he KOs you, the burning cloud lasts long enough for you to get up.
Maps have more than 2 entrances. As far as spamming it at the end, if the game is close, as in there is only like 1-3 sec left to get on the objective, it won't matter -- the grenade takes 10 seconds to kill you. Also, if you spam all 5 of your grenades in the first 1:15, that means that there is 8:45 - 10:45 of time where that merc is playing with only 3 gadgets. Good for him.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on September 25, 2007, 03:17:00 PM
Also the gasmask isn't really obligatory - i don't take it on muse/ orph/ factory/ missile, just because i don't get cammed alot there.
Are you kidding? Yeah it is.
80% of spies take smoke and almost all spies take cams.
If you play against players of any reasonable skill level, you absolutely need a gas mask.
Mask is required more for cams than smoke. Having said that, the slowdown induced from smoke is probably a bit too high, which basically forces the use of gasmask.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 25, 2007, 10:58:01 PM
Two reasons:
1. The number 4 just doesn't make any sense to me.
2. Reduce the reliance on backpack.
Yes, they are popular. However, with no insta-grenades, they'd kill a lot less often.
I'm not sure why 5 makes any more sense than 4. In PT, where the number was 5, frags were required a bit more because you had no gas mask. So that if you got smoked outside an objective, a common tactic, you often had to rely on frag bouncing to hit the spy, because you couldn't get there yourself. So I think a reduction of nades was appropriate for CT.
As far as reducing reliance on the backpack, I doubt that handing out one more frag will do that.
I don't feel like we have to decrease reliance on the backpack, but rather encourage people to take other things. Taking a backpack is generally a sign that you don't see any other useful gadgets to take and would rather just have more of the stuff you have now. If you had a choice between 5 spytraps, a PT style taser and maybe those upgraded incendiary grenades, it's possible some people may choose not to take a backpack.
the slow down is a little bit too strong, though you can charge through most of the smoke.
i'm kinda surprised that spekkio likes the idea of burning phosphorous nades. i think it would be better if the dust stays in the air/on the ground for about 12s and one can shoot at it to lighten it resulting in doing continuous damage that hinders the spies from staying within the radius, but consumes the effect more quickly. another idea: the dust could fall slowly to the ground covering a slightely larger area and staying there for quite some time. but a spy running through it wouldn't lighten up in the dark/emf but only leaving some footsteps.
Phospho grenades are relatively useless in PT, so having them do some damage, even if it's small, could help boost them up to par.
The other reason for 5 grenades is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with 5 grenades in PT. I really don't know why they took one away in return for giving two in the backpack. Giving an extra frag isn't a huge difference, but it certainly makes the backpack much less needed. Most people are undoubtedly going to take frags anyway. They are a simple, straightforward piece of equipment to use, and help cover a larger area of the map. Point, click, kill.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 25, 2007, 11:51:19 PMPoint, click, kill.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner of the "describe a good motto/catchphrase for the Mercs"-contest.
;D j/k.
Quote from: deathcrow666 on September 25, 2007, 11:14:57 AM
It was annoying when noobs or just jack asss camped in ther sapwns
how about not playing with n00bs?
[/quote]
dude are you stupid READ!!!!! I didn't say only noobs for one and two its hard not to now days ...idiot. you need to stop bitching
QuoteAs far as spamming it at the end, if the game is close, as in there is only like 1-3 sec left to get on the objective, it won't matter -- the grenade takes 10 seconds to kill you.
That assumes that damage won't cause the spy to stop hacking.
Well, it shouldn't.
Well, it has. Just not poisoning of the spy, any other damage stopped him from hacking.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 25, 2007, 11:51:19 PM
Giving an extra frag isn't a huge difference, but it certainly makes the backpack much less needed. Most people are undoubtedly going to take frags anyway. They are a simple, straightforward piece of equipment to use, and help cover a larger area of the map. Point, click, kill.
Well that's probably exactly why they decided to take away a frag. Mostly because everyone took them.
One system of game balance is that you keep nerfing something (or boosting something) until it's no longer a must-take or a never-take. If frags finds its way onto everyones equipment list, then they hit it with the nerf bat.
The change I'm not quite so sure about was the limit on spytraps. Why only 3 traps? It basically leaves no advantage over just taking mines.
Quote from: derfy on September 26, 2007, 03:27:51 AM
QuoteAs far as spamming it at the end, if the game is close, as in there is only like 1-3 sec left to get on the objective, it won't matter -- the grenade takes 10 seconds to kill you.
That assumes that damage won't cause the spy to stop hacking.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 26, 2007, 07:18:04 AM
Well, it shouldn't.
this is a large change in the game mechanics that needs to be considered carefully. atm one can't do much frags with nades as it's easy to avoid them (assumed there is no lagg/sound loss), so if only phosphorous nades could stop spies from hacking an objective for some seconds by doing continuous damage, they would certainly be an alternative to frags/mines etc.
these are the main reasons why i die most times playing spy: soundloss, bug mines, lagg charges, lagg that hinders me from shocking dodging mercs, not knowing the mercs position, disk objectives and not to forget, nonattention or rl stuff. you probably noticed i didn't mention frags, and bug free mines and no soundloss reduces mines to what they are intended to (with chaff not working through walls): kill rushing spies. the reason everyone takes frags and mines is that there is that there are no good alternatives.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on September 26, 2007, 08:30:54 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on September 25, 2007, 11:51:19 PM
Giving an extra frag isn't a huge difference, but it certainly makes the backpack much less needed. Most people are undoubtedly going to take frags anyway. They are a simple, straightforward piece of equipment to use, and help cover a larger area of the map. Point, click, kill.
Well that's probably exactly why they decided to take away a frag. Mostly because everyone took them.
One system of game balance is that you keep nerfing something (or boosting something) until it's no longer a must-take or a never-take. If frags finds its way onto everyones equipment list, then they hit it with the nerf bat.
The change I'm not quite so sure about was the limit on spytraps. Why only 3 traps? It basically leaves no advantage over just taking mines.
My guess is they lowered equipment numbers to account for backpack, and not because too many people were taking frags. There were only 6 equipment items in PT, anyway, with flares and phospho nades being the odd-men out.
If you want to make backpack a less "must take" item, you have to give mercs more equipment to start with. One more frag and 2 more spy traps (able to place max 5 on the map at once) would definitely help, since among the team it makes for 2 more frags (the size of one half of a backpack) and 4 more spy traps (the size of what's in the backpack).
Quote from: Spekkio on September 26, 2007, 05:04:52 PM
If you want to make backpack a less "must take" item, you have to give mercs more equipment to start with. One more frag and 2 more spy traps (able to place max 5 on the map at once) would definitely help, since among the team it makes for 2 more frags (the size of one half of a backpack) and 4 more spy traps (the size of what's in the backpack).
I don't feel like a spytrap change will affect backpacks much, because most of the time the choice is between taking a backpack or taking spytraps. Changing spytraps actually competes more with mines than a backpack.
The best way to make a backpack less useful is to have the other stuff more useful. Taking a backpack is effectively a vote of 'no confidence' in the other gadgets. You take a backpack because you want more of what you already have. If the other gadgets were better, then there would be more incentive to take them instead. It seems that the levels I don't take a backpack happen to be the levels where I want that slot for something else, like a camnet on river mall for instance, or sometimes spytraps on museum.
Also, a backpack may actually carry too much equipment in some cases.
Consider that a backpack carries 4 mines (2 for you, 2 for your partner), which is more than you get originally by just taking mines. It carries effectively the same number of frags (4) and so on. I wonder if we could possibly cut the amount of equipment in the backpack... perhaps have it carry only half what it does for the original player, but keep the partner's ration the same (this would encourage more teamwork).
The other change if you're looking to weaken the backpack is to have it hold only equipment for your partner (though more of it). So the only time you can ever use it is if you go to your partner and refill, which makes it slightly inconvenient.
Well, first of all, I don't really think people taking double backpack is a result of bp having "too much stuff." I mean, if the bp had too much stuff in it, people would always only take one. I think it's the fact that a lot of people think that the benefits of having nearly double the amount of frags and mines outweighs the benefits of carrying camnet or spytraps. As I mentioned before, camnet requires teamwork and varies in usefulness dramatically depending on the map, and spy traps need some love. Furthermore, flares and tazer are completely useless pieces of equipment. I personally think that 2 backpacks is overkill so long as you are smart about using your equipment, and I only do that on maps where camnet or spytraps would be useless to me.
I also don't buy into the statement that "spy traps compete with mines." They serve two totally different functions. Mines are there to kill spies who are careless. Spy traps are there to mark spies so that you can track them.
The thing is, almost everyone takes at least 1 backpack between the two mercs, which leads me to believe that most people feel that the current merc loadout isn't enough. Do you think you could last a whole round with only 4 frags, 3 mines, 3 spy traps, and mask? I don't. Not when spy traps can be run through and instantly removed by the spy's partner, mine spots are pretty much exhausted in the 2-year-old maps we have, and non-insta frags are relatively easy to avoid.
I also think Ubisoft made the equipment so low because of the following equipment combo for both mercs: frags, mines, traps, camnet/frags, mines, spy traps, backpack. Imagine trying to get around 6 mines, 6 traps, camnet, and all the passive map defenses undetected. The only thing that prevents this loadout is that buffed smoke grenades + quick cams make gasmask a mandatory equipment item. This also leads into why I suggested ultimately dividing the equipment slots into categories once you expand the gadgets to allow for easier balance tweaking, but that's another topic entirely.
The point is that backpack will be a mainstay as long as people feel that they don't have enough equipment to start with. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing because you are sacrificing an additional gadget to have more of the same, but I also don't think that nerfing the amount of items in the backpack or nerfing the current status quo is the way to approach rounding out the gadgets. Rather, I think it would be much better to bring the other gadgets up to speed and increase the number of what we have so that people don't feel such an obligation to take backpack in the first place.
While getting caught up in this whole boost-other-items-to-stop-backpack argument, remember that it has to balance with the spies too!
Thing is, if you make the other equipment EQUAL in strength as the other stuff, you're not actually buffing mercs on the whole. They can still only take 4 items.
Everyone hates the concept of backpacks?
No not at all. I just hate the concept of overly used equipment and equipment that is never used.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 26, 2007, 10:05:19 PM
Well, first of all, I don't really think people taking double backpack is a result of bp having "too much stuff." I mean, if the bp had too much stuff in it, people would always only take one.
Well, no it's not that it has too much stuff in the sense that it's enough so you never run out during the game. It's that it has so much stuff that it's worth more than another gadget. Consider that as I said, one backpack gives you 4 mines, that's 1 more mine than you'd get from simply picking mines. And that doesn't also take into account that a backpack also holds 4 frags too. Thus you can take spytraps (getting 3 traps) or backpack (getting 4 mines and 4 frags).
QuoteI also don't buy into the statement that "spy traps compete with mines." They serve two totally different functions. Mines are there to kill spies who are careless. Spy traps are there to mark spies so that you can track them.
The idea isn't what they do, but so much as how they do it. Both use lasers stretched across a room or motion detection. One of them kills you or poisons you, the other tags you or sets off an alert. Given that they both work precisely the same way, they're in direct competition. Back in PT, before the poison mine, spytraps held a different role simply becuase they were all you could use to block certain areas effectively with a laser (lasre mines were very limited). The advent of the poison mine overlapped spytraps so much that they don't have as well defined a role anymore. Both can be removed by a partner.
Quote
The thing is, almost everyone takes at least 1 backpack between the two mercs, which leads me to believe that most people feel that the current merc loadout isn't enough. Do you think you could last a whole round with only 4 frags, 3 mines, 3 spy traps, and mask? I don't. Not when spy traps can be run through and instantly removed by the spy's partner, mine spots are pretty much exhausted in the 2-year-old maps we have, and non-insta frags are relatively easy to avoid.
Well, honestly out of those, running out of gas mask is probably the most vital.
Quote
The point is that backpack will be a mainstay as long as people feel that they don't have enough equipment to start with.
Possibly, but the thing is that you get more equipment by choosing something else. Taking traps instead of backpack adds to your equipment, it's just a different type of equipment. The thing is that backpack actually gives you more equipment than that does, so you're much better off taking a backpack than you are taking something else like traps.
Now, I'm not saying the backpack is necessarily unbalanced in the current incarnation, I'm just saying that so long as it gives out more equipment then just taking something new (like traps), people will generally tend to take it over traps. About the only time that you may want to take something else is if you wanted to really pack the map tight with defenses...but really 3 mines per player is usually enough. In fact, I sort oflike the idea of placing some defenses later in a match as opposed to all at once at the start, because you may catch a spy by surprise while he's traveling through a zone that was mine free on his last life.
The thing is, backpack could have infinite nades and infinite mines and it really wouldn't make much of a difference because you can only carry 4 and 3 of them at the same time, respectively. The point is, the fact that it has "more mines and frags than you start with" is rather irrelevent. You are sacrificing the ability to use another equipment item altogether, plus backpack equipment needs to be divided between two people. Additionally, camnet and the tazer can be used infinitely.
Like I said, if the reason people take backpack is, in fact, because you get more equipment than you actually start with, then the way to go about things is to increase the starting equipment, not decrease the amount of stuff in the backpack.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 26, 2007, 11:27:38 PM
Thing is, if you make the other equipment EQUAL in strength as the other stuff, you're not actually buffing mercs on the whole. They can still only take 4 items.
qfe
there's no need to nerf bp at all, as the current eq loadout isn't overpowered. just boost or replace the gadgets nobody uses.
what could make a problem is the combination of boosted/replaced gadgets and the old ones like bp. but spekkio already suggested a good solution: a gadget slot system based on active/passive or whatever. plz give it a shot...
Quote from: Overstatement on September 27, 2007, 12:34:02 AM
Everyone hates the concept of backpacks?
At least I do and I also dont like the concept of burning flares cause i realize how abusive it could be.
How about fanny packs that the spies would have lol Not fanny packs, maybe just a utility belt?
The way I see it, spies don't need extra eq because they die much more frequently.
Spies to die more, but there have still been several cases where The spy is alive, you finally get one merc ZZzzing, but you're out of eq and the other merc is on his way.
At the same time, hopefully your mate is alive and near you maybe to give you some of his eq.
Overall I don't think spies need too much more in terms of eq. Mercs don't need that much either. Beefing them both up is kind of a bad idea if we are to focus on balance. Its going to come with the maps though.
Mercs usually kill themselves or ask their mates to do that when they want to get new eq so why not implement penalty spawning time when that happens ?
Perhapes they wouldnt risk that when there are no bps and they are out of things.
Because sometimes you kill yourself on accident. What if you were fighting a spy and you killed yourself by accident, if there was a penalty for that the spy could just run around and hack shit while you watch and cry. Plus spawn time is already 10, which is more than enough for a spy to go hack an objective before the dead merc respawns and gets there.
Yea, there is no real way to know if the merc actually killed himself for eq. Granted you can easily tell, but the game can't.
To prevent the merc from killing himself for EQ, I always thought a degrading amount of equipment would be nice. So maybe you get 3 mines with life 1, 2 mines with life 2 and 1 mine with life 3 or something.
At the very least, it's handing you diminishing returns. And you're wondering if it's really worth it to off yourself for a couple extra frags.
Well mercs should be careful then and not kill themselves. I know it happens sometimes but you can mostly avoid it by not throwing nades like a maniac.
we could give mercs a higher amount of eq at the beginning, but when they get killed (especially suidice) they respawn only with the gadget amounts that was left or with no nades etc at all and have to go back to their dead body to get it back. though there should be some replacement penalty for aggro spies.
Quote from: Gawain on September 28, 2007, 01:40:44 PM
we could give mercs a higher amount of eq at the beginning, but when they get killed (especially suidice) they respawn only with the gadget amounts that was left or with no nades etc at all and have to go back to their dead body to get it back. though there should be some replacement penalty for aggro spies.
I don't really feel like spies need any equipment penalty. Dying is sort of in their job description.
with aggro penalty i mean that after you kill a merc, he comes back with full eq.
I wouldn't put any penalties on killing a merc for spy. A good merc is nearly impossible to kill. He will allow himself to be jumped or cammed before being necked if an objective is at stake.
Besides the fact that killing mercs by going full aggro is hard against a good player (and usually requires you expend a large amount of nades), limiting play style... well there's no reason for penalizing a player for that. Hell, quite often at least one spy dies in the process - that seems penalty enough.
Not to mention generally the defending team has less lives than the infiltrating team which kinda shows they are expected to die more (the infiltrators that is).
i say:
yes, yes, and more yes.
if you want at least a semi-successful mod, your gonna need a training mode, speccially for this type of game. mabye incoporate the same kind of system Fortress Forever uses, it has little Help system that pops up at the right time, saying the right stuff, while a certain thing happens. for example, in FF, an engineer is building a SG, a little MSG pops up saying:
a engineer is building a Sentry Gun, protect him, and help him upgrade his gun! (not word-for-word)
and, place a training mode with a room, etc, saying how do to certain things, possibly teeling them you need to think (lol) and make some stragties, work as a team, etc. other things, too.
plus, FF is a unoffcial mod, not a full game, so it definatly IS possible. but, FF is running on the Source engine, but i think it was done with C++ anyhow. (i hope you guys know what C++ is....)
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 28, 2007, 11:03:20 PM
I wouldn't put any penalties on killing a merc for spy. A good merc is nearly impossible to kill. He will allow himself to be jumped or cammed before being necked if an objective is at stake.
I disagree. A good merc is nearly impossible to eliminate, but it's not nearly impossible to get a grab or blow him up with his own mine. We also can't anticipate how the bug fixes will affect balance. I would guess that spies are going to have an easier time in general, but only time will tell.
A dead merc should absolutely refill his equipment. This is what presents a strategic choice to the spies if and when they get a grab. Snapping that neck refills the merc's stuff, but usually gives you more time to do whatever and brings him one step closer to elimination. KO'ing him won't refill anything and still puts him out of commission shortly, but later on he has lives to spare for things like suiciding.
Something that might lead to more deaths on the merc side is taking away the ability for both teams to heal your partner (and taking away health regen for spies). This means that if a merc gets jumped or falls too far, he has to treck over to a healthpack to heal up. This, along with better hit detection, would theoretically increase the amount of kills the spies get from jumps.
Also, let's keep something in perspective here: mercs can only suicide for equipment if both spies die at the same time, or if one spy is already dead and the second spy gets killed. This opportunity doesn't arise very often. We can reduce the "one spy is already dead" suicides by not allowing you to see how many lives your opponents have left.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 29, 2007, 09:16:11 PM
We can reduce the "one spy is already dead" suicides by not allowing you to see how many lives your opponents have left.
I like it, but it should be toggelable. That way the teams have to communicate in order to know what the status of the other team is.
"they pwned us because they were better at counting" any1? XD
Quote from: Spekkio on September 29, 2007, 09:16:11 PM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 28, 2007, 11:03:20 PM
I wouldn't put any penalties on killing a merc for spy. A good merc is nearly impossible to kill. He will allow himself to be jumped or cammed before being necked if an objective is at stake.
I disagree. A good merc is nearly impossible to eliminate, but it's not nearly impossible to get a grab or blow him up with his own mine. We also can't anticipate how the bug fixes will affect balance. I would guess that spies are going to have an easier time in general, but only time will tell.
I guess, but mercs will probably be a bit more deadly as we aren't anticipating having the hit detection issue that allows a merc to unload a full clip into a spy and not have him die. In PS running around in front of a merc will be a much more risky prospect.
We'll just have to wait till we can play test it to know for sure :-\
Quote from: Gawain on September 30, 2007, 07:05:51 PM
"they pwned us because they were better at counting" any1? XD
I always thought it'd be kinda nice if there was a feature by which your teammate could give up one of his lives so that you could respawn if you were out of lives. That way counting lives doesn't matter as much, unless it's the last spy on his last life.
IMO there should be no info like: "neth has brocken binary's neck" or "...neutralized..." etc.
When I played the game for the first time (wow, that was long time ago) and was really excited about this cool merc helmet, things like: "rebooting" - when shot in the head. Suddenly out of nowhere theres this big white sentence giving an info about who neutralized or killed someone. I was like: "who the fuck said that ?!, where r u hiding evil ?!"
so I think it would be more challenging if there was no info like this
no. this just gives the guys using mics even more advantage
I know this isn't really the point and I don't have much of an opinion on the messages, but if you are playing a game where a Microphone gives an advantage... Shouldn't you invest in one? It's kinda part of the game and if you don't have one and can't learn to communicate quickly and effectively without one, perhaps this isn't the game for that individual?
If a homeless crackhead can come up with the money for $1500 a week habit then it would stand to reason if you REALLY want that mic, you can get one. You can get a cheap mic for 12-15 bucks... If they are to young to get a job, go mow the neighbors lawn or pull weeds. Hell I bought a $500 bike when I was 14 by mowing lawns at 5-10 bucks apiece.
I don't see why guys w/ mics shouldn't get advantages.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 04, 2007, 11:40:27 PM
I know this isn't really the point and I don't have much of an opinion on the messages, but if you are playing a game where a Microphone gives an advantage... Shouldn't you invest in one? It's kinda part of the game and if you don't have one and can't learn to communicate quickly and effectively without one, perhaps this isn't the game for that individual?
If a homeless crackhead can come up with the money for $1500 a week habit then it would stand to reason if you REALLY want that mic, you can get one. You can get a cheap mic for 12-15 bucks... If they are to young to get a job, go mow the neighbors lawn or pull weeds. Hell I bought a $500 bike when I was 14 by mowing lawns at 5-10 bucks apiece.
I agree with you. However, kill/death messages should remain.
The only thing I feel should be changed about death messages is that they shouldn't contain names. I'd prefer just "A spy has been killed" or something. The meaning of the message is self-evident for the team to which it refers (if you didn't die, then obviously it's your partner), but makes things a bit more confusing for the other team.
That, in combination with not being able to see your opponent's lives, would avoid "he who counts better knows if a spy is out of lives." It would also keep the tensity of the game and reduce suiciding for more equipment once the mercs know that one spy is out for good.
Well if you really want to have an info, it should look like: "partner signal lost" - it would be cool cause you wouldnt know if hes down for few secs or killed
Does everyone really feel that the suiciding for more eq is that big of a deal?
We could allow Mercs to refill their entire inventory once per game + backpack. Just have a eq box they can only access once for a full refill. If he dies he respawns with the same number of mines, nades etc. that he died with.
Just mines for example (Making the assumption Backpack will refill upon death and only one player has a BP) -
Backpack is 2 mines x 3 lives = 6
On person is 3 mines
Eq Station is 3 mines
Total of 8-12 mines VS 15 if eq refills on death and merc has a BP/suicides twice.
I think the 3 mine difference would be hardly be noticed and I dont imagine the once a game refill is going to break balance. Dunno ???
Quote from: neth on October 05, 2007, 05:12:17 PM
Well if you really want to have an info, it should look like: "partner signal lost" - it would be cool cause you wouldnt know if hes down for few secs or killed
Actually I really like that idea, instead of "<name> has been neutralized by <name>" a "Communication feed lost" message with a little 1-2 second long static crackle would be awesome ;D
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 05, 2007, 05:33:32 PM
We could allow Mercs to refill their entire inventory once per game + backpack. Just have a eq box they can only access once for a full refill. If he dies he respawns with the same number of mines, nades etc. that he died with.
One idea I thought of was to reduce mines and traps to 2 each. The thing is that you're allowed to refill them at the ammo box as soon as a mine or trap is removed. This means there's a cap of 2 mines and 2 traps (possibly 3 traps) per player at any one given time.
The backpack under this design would be like an instant ammo box (probably refilling ammo clips too), whenever you or your partner wanted it.
Even though you can get potentially unlimited mines or traps, since you can only play 2 at a time, the mines the spy sees per game will either go down slightly or remain constant. It also eliminates the dying refill problem because you can just get more at the ammo box anyway, so dying doesn't accomplish anything.
The only real problem here would be frags. You can't hav ethose replenishable at the ammo box, so I'd say keep them the way they are. 4 on person, 2 in the backpack, or possibly none in the backpack and 5 on person. If people wnat to suicide for more frags, I guess we can let them, but the fact that you're not getting any mines or traps will probably make it not worthwhile anymore.
Though I'm not sure if this ends up being too big a nerf to the backpack. Though on some maps, having an ammo box on your back might be kinda nice.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 05, 2007, 05:33:32 PM
Does everyone really feel that the suiciding for more eq is that big of a deal?
We could allow Mercs to refill their entire inventory once per game + backpack. Just have a eq box they can only access once for a full refill. If he dies he respawns with the same number of mines, nades etc. that he died with.
Just mines for example (Making the assumption Backpack will refill upon death and only one player has a BP) -
Backpack is 2 mines x 3 lives = 6
On person is 3 mines
Eq Station is 3 mines
Total of 8-12 mines VS 15 if eq refills on death and merc has a BP/suicides twice.
I think the 3 mine difference would be hardly be noticed and I dont imagine the once a game refill is going to break balance. Dunno ???
Dying should refill your equip, period. The point that I was making witha ambiguous messages for the OTHER team only is that it would keep more tensity in the game. The mercs wouldn't know that they could relax cuz one guy is dead, or that they could suicide with little penalty for more equipment, etc. etc. The suiciding for more equipment is more of a side effect of that tensity.
You should still get detailed messages about your partner. Not doing that would make the game too inaccessible to people who don't have microphones. You already have enough of an advantage with a mic with quick communication; you don't need to remove any semblance of kill message along with it.
i vote for a counter that shows the sum of spy lifes (and no information who died).
suiciding for eq is only a problem with gas mask and bp, any thoughts about it?
I don't really think suiciding for more equipment is an issue at all that needs to be actively fixed. Some people were complaining about it, and not knowing your opponent's lives left would reduce its occurance.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 05, 2007, 10:37:19 PM
I don't really think suiciding for more equipment is an issue at all that needs to be actively fixed. Some people were complaining about it, and not knowing your opponent's lives left would reduce its occurance.
Funny. I had typed up a post very similar and then just decided screw it and canceled it :D
Only difference was; knowing your opponents lives/counting your opponents lives doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If you're down to one spy you pretty much have to get damn lucky or be playing some real idiots in order to win. In my opinion a good player will stay in his area and not go hunting for that one spy giving him the chance to get "lucky". Shrug.
I think that even if we don't have gadget refill, we should at least be able to renew the gas mask :-\
I think refilling gasmask should be like this.
You start each life with 100 'units'. Each time you replenish the mask, you get half of it added.
So if you're empty, you can get 50 units. Empty after that? 25 units.
How about 1/3?
Also possible.
I don't think an equipment gadget that completely nullifies two spy gadgets needs a refill.
B1nary,
The thing with the lives is just to add more tensity back into the game. In PT if you lost track of your opponent's lives, it could get very tense not knowing if one or both spies are lurking to finish that last objective.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 06, 2007, 12:14:21 AM
I don't think an equipment gadget that completely nullifies two spy gadgets needs a refill.
B1nary,
The thing with the lives is just to add more tensity back into the game. In PT if you lost track of your opponent's lives, it could get very tense not knowing if one or both spies are lurking to finish that last objective.
Ah... Yeah I can see your point.
Quote from: neth on October 04, 2007, 08:05:11 PM
IMO there should be no info like: "neth has brocken binary's neck" or "...neutralized..." etc.
When I played the game for the first time (wow, that was long time ago) and was really excited about this cool merc helmet, things like: "rebooting" - when shot in the head. Suddenly out of nowhere theres this big white sentence giving an info about who neutralized or killed someone. I was like: "who the fuck said that ?!, where r u hiding evil ?!"
so I think it would be more challenging if there was no info like this
i agree fully. i like how you are actually inside of a suit, like malfunction, rebooting, etc. rofl, as a easter egg, when you get jumped on, you get a Blue Screen of Death. i think PT did better with the whole suit thing, CT, not so much. make the merc seem like you are actually inside of a helmet, a hi-tech helmet, telling you vital info. such as in HL, when you get damged or something it says: "Blood Loss Detected!" or "Toxins detected in blood. Admistiring andidote." go more for cool HUDs for the merc!
also, when someone is talking, it should say: Incoming Transmission: "xxx"
and for the death messages, make it color-coded. as in, say mrmic kills greenday5494. greenday5494 is a spy, and mrmic is a merc. make whoever the merc's name is on-screen orange, while the spy's is green. that way, we know which team is which.
What about a sort of vision blur when something like a frag goes off or you fall from a great height? Sort of the WW2 confusion kind of look to it. That would be bad ass. I want to see a more high tech design also, maybe with scanlines on the top and bottom that fade in when they get closer to the middle of the screen. You might not know what I mean, I'll post a pic soon.
Example: On halo 3, I am sure some of you have played it, when you spawn you get those grid lines that appear on your screen then the do a cool little animation and dissapear.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 12, 2007, 08:30:14 AM
What about a sort of vision blur when something like a frag goes off or you fall from a great height? Sort of the WW2 confusion kind of look to it. That would be bad ass.
With the hundreds of games that use vision blur so they can make their game look "good" without a lot of work (copy and paste shaders), there are still people like you who look forward to it? That's like saying "In Stranglehold, you can slow down time. It's going to be awesome and special!"
Quote from: Overstatement on October 12, 2007, 11:57:11 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 12, 2007, 08:30:14 AM
What about a sort of vision blur when something like a frag goes off or you fall from a great height? Sort of the WW2 confusion kind of look to it. That would be bad ass.
With the hundreds of games that use vision blur so they can make their game look "good" without a lot of work (copy and paste shaders), there are still people like you who look forward to it? That's like saying "In Stranglehold, you can slow down time. It's going to be awesome and special!"
I happen to disagree, I don't believe it is just to "look good". It is a price you pay for falling or for choosing to take a jump that you know will hurt you. When your vision becomes blurry it gives the effect of losing your bearings and it means for a moment you can't see clearly which in a S.A.M. can cost you dearly. You have to maintain visual contact with your target at all times and that moment of blurred vision gives the target a moment to slip behind something or into a shadow without being seen.
Granted blur is overused and not to creative, it is however effective and serves its purpose. I would imagine we will use static in the merc goggles/hud rather than blur. Even a little blur or double vision for a second would achieve the desired effect of getting a little "dazed" on your landing or charging headlong into a wall.
This is only my personal opinion but I also think the "disorient" should be applied when a merc is elbowed. I'm sure some one here besides myself has noticed that when you take a hard knock to the head your eyes get jarred and it blurs your vision or causes double vision for half a second before your eyes re-align. It shouldn't affect game play to much as the effect would be gone by the time you have finished your back step caused by the blow.
Anyone played Halo 3? When you fall you should have the pinch effect like when gravmind talks to you. It makes it look like your moving slow but when the pinch undoes you've actually moved at normal speed. Hope someone has played and knows what I mean :) like that but more blurred.
:EDIT:
Papa Skull, that blur your talking about is called "shell shock" in most WW games :)
Quote from: Tidenburg on October 12, 2007, 04:28:44 PMPapa Skull, that blur your talking about is called "shell shock" in most WW games :)
Which is something that happens and is quite real. It's not just a cheap trick to improve the look, it is replicating a true to life effect.
Shell shock is an effective way to give an intense feeling to the player. Like the whole situation is chaotic. I love that, and it isn't in every game like you say it is. If you fell from a height big enough to break your legs, you would be a little dazed as well. If you were 10 ft away from a frag grenade when it went off, but you didn't die, you would be really dazed.
Yes Tidenburg, although that was kind of annoying on halo 3, it could be a nice little effect on this.
I think if you're going to use something to simulate that and affect gameplay, blur is not the way to go. I mean, the brain has a pretty good ability to unscramble blurred images so you'd have to blur it all the way to noise (or at least, past the point where it becomes visually unpleasing) to get the gameplay result you'd want.
Besides, in a game where spies have a complete view of their surrondings at all times, I don't think reducing it because of a long fall would fit into the spy's theme.
Edit: Talking about identifing near things in blurred images. I agree that things in the distance are hard to see if blurred.
The shell shock thing would be more pleasing from a first person perspective, talking about a merc. I don't think shell shock would be good for spies. For mercs, it would be awesome, it gives that sense of chaos and confusion.
I should have specified but yeah, I don't think any sort of disorient should be used for spies.
I think the double vision is a lot more effective than blur at confusing a merc. Not sure but I don't think they would work well together.
They would work well together. You can't really have double vision w/o blur but you can have blur w/o double vision. Go watch saving private ryan, it has some awesome shell shock examples.