Training Mode

[Spekkio]

Well, first of all, I don't really think people taking double backpack is a result of bp having "too much stuff." I mean, if the bp had too much stuff in it, people would always only take one. I think it's the fact that a lot of people think that the benefits of having nearly double the amount of frags and mines outweighs the benefits of carrying camnet or spytraps. As I mentioned before, camnet requires teamwork and varies in usefulness dramatically depending on the map, and spy traps need some love. Furthermore, flares and tazer are completely useless pieces of equipment. I personally think that 2 backpacks is overkill so long as you are smart about using your equipment, and I only do that on maps where camnet or spytraps would be useless to me.

I also don't buy into the statement that "spy traps compete with mines." They serve two totally different functions. Mines are there to kill spies who are careless. Spy traps are there to mark spies so that you can track them.

The thing is, almost everyone takes at least 1 backpack between the two mercs, which leads me to believe that most people feel that the current merc loadout isn't enough. Do you think you could last a whole round with only 4 frags, 3 mines, 3 spy traps, and mask? I don't. Not when spy traps can be run through and instantly removed by the spy's partner, mine spots are pretty much exhausted in the 2-year-old maps we have, and non-insta frags are relatively easy to avoid.

I also think Ubisoft made the equipment so low because of the following equipment combo for both mercs: frags, mines, traps, camnet/frags, mines, spy traps, backpack. Imagine trying to get around 6 mines, 6 traps, camnet, and all the passive map defenses undetected. The only thing that prevents this loadout is that buffed smoke grenades + quick cams make gasmask a mandatory equipment item. This also leads into why I suggested ultimately dividing the equipment slots into categories once you expand the gadgets to allow for easier balance tweaking, but that's another topic entirely.

The point is that backpack will be a mainstay as long as people feel that they don't have enough equipment to start with. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing because you are sacrificing an additional gadget to have more of the same, but I also don't think that nerfing the amount of items in the backpack or nerfing the current status quo is the way to approach rounding out the gadgets. Rather, I think it would be much better to bring the other gadgets up to speed and increase the number of what we have so that people don't feel such an obligation to take backpack in the first place.

[Cyntrox]

While getting caught up in this whole boost-other-items-to-stop-backpack argument, remember that it has to balance with the spies too!

[Spekkio]

Thing is, if you make the other equipment EQUAL in strength as the other stuff, you're not actually buffing mercs on the whole. They can still only take 4 items.

[Overstatement]

Everyone hates the concept of backpacks?

[Farley4Fan]

No not at all.  I just hate the concept of overly used equipment and equipment that is never used.

[InvisibleMan999]

Well, first of all, I don't really think people taking double backpack is a result of bp having "too much stuff." I mean, if the bp had too much stuff in it, people would always only take one.

Well, no it's not that it has too much stuff in the sense that it's enough so you never run out during the game. It's that it has so much stuff that it's worth more than another gadget. Consider that as I said, one backpack gives you 4 mines, that's 1 more mine than you'd get from simply picking mines. And that doesn't also take into account that a backpack also holds 4 frags too. Thus you can take spytraps (getting 3 traps) or backpack (getting 4 mines and 4 frags).

I also don't buy into the statement that "spy traps compete with mines." They serve two totally different functions. Mines are there to kill spies who are careless. Spy traps are there to mark spies so that you can track them.

The idea isn't what they do, but so much as how they do it. Both use lasers stretched across a room or motion detection. One of them kills you or poisons you, the other tags you or sets off an alert. Given that they both work precisely the same way, they're in direct competition. Back in PT, before the poison mine, spytraps held a different role simply becuase they were all you could use to block certain areas effectively with a laser (lasre mines were very limited). The advent of the poison mine overlapped spytraps so much that they don't have as well defined a role anymore. Both can be removed by a partner.

The thing is, almost everyone takes at least 1 backpack between the two mercs, which leads me to believe that most people feel that the current merc loadout isn't enough. Do you think you could last a whole round with only 4 frags, 3 mines, 3 spy traps, and mask? I don't. Not when spy traps can be run through and instantly removed by the spy's partner, mine spots are pretty much exhausted in the 2-year-old maps we have, and non-insta frags are relatively easy to avoid.

Well, honestly out of those, running out of gas mask is probably the most vital.

The point is that backpack will be a mainstay as long as people feel that they don't have enough equipment to start with.

Possibly, but the thing is that you get more equipment by choosing something else. Taking traps instead of backpack adds to your equipment, it's just a different type of equipment. The thing is that backpack actually gives you more equipment than that does, so you're much better off taking a backpack than you are taking something else like traps.

Now, I'm not saying the backpack is necessarily unbalanced in the current incarnation, I'm just saying that so long as it gives out more equipment then just taking something new (like traps), people will generally tend to take it over traps. About the only time that you may want to take something else is if you wanted to really pack the map tight with defenses...but really 3 mines per player is usually enough. In fact, I sort oflike the idea of placing some defenses later in a match as opposed to all at once at the start, because you may catch a spy by surprise while he's traveling through a zone that was mine free on his last life.

[Spekkio]

The thing is, backpack could have infinite nades and infinite mines and it really wouldn't make much of a difference because you can only carry 4 and 3 of them at the same time, respectively. The point is, the fact that it has "more mines and frags than you start with" is rather irrelevent. You are sacrificing the ability to use another equipment item altogether, plus backpack equipment needs to be divided between two people. Additionally, camnet and the tazer can be used infinitely.

Like I said, if the reason people take backpack is, in fact, because you get more equipment than you actually start with, then the way to go about things is to increase the starting equipment, not decrease the amount of stuff in the backpack.

[Gawain]

Thing is, if you make the other equipment EQUAL in strength as the other stuff, you're not actually buffing mercs on the whole. They can still only take 4 items.

qfe
there's no need to nerf bp at all, as the current eq loadout isn't overpowered. just boost or replace the gadgets nobody uses.
what could make a problem is the combination of boosted/replaced gadgets and the old ones like bp. but spekkio already suggested a good solution: a gadget slot system based on active/passive or whatever. plz give it a shot...

[neth]

Everyone hates the concept of backpacks?

At least I do and I also dont like the concept of burning flares cause i realize how abusive it could be.

[Farley4Fan]

How about fanny packs that the spies would have lol  Not fanny packs, maybe just a utility belt?

[Cyntrox]

The way I see it, spies don't need extra eq because they die much more frequently.

[Westfall]

Spies to die more, but there have still been several cases where The spy is alive, you finally get one merc ZZzzing, but you're out of eq and the other merc is on his way.

At the same time, hopefully your mate is alive and near you maybe to give you some of his eq.

Overall I don't think spies need too much more in terms of eq. Mercs don't need that much either. Beefing them both up is kind of a bad idea if we are to focus on balance. Its going to come with the maps though.

[neth]

Mercs usually kill themselves or ask their mates to do that when they want to get new eq so why not implement penalty spawning time when that happens ?
Perhapes they wouldnt risk that when there are no bps and they are out of things.

[Farley4Fan]

Because sometimes you kill yourself on accident.  What if you were fighting a spy and you killed yourself by accident, if there was a penalty for that the spy could just run around and hack shit while you watch and cry.  Plus spawn time is already 10, which is more than enough for a spy to go hack an objective before the dead merc respawns and gets there. 

[Westfall]

Yea, there is no real way to know if the merc actually killed himself for eq. Granted you can easily tell, but the game can't.