take note the reason why i have changed names , but also enhanced functionality.
Bots: emits sounds that set off merc reticle.....
-very small, and when shot on to a surface will immedietly move acrossed surface in a random direction to set off sounds from a different location
-if shot onto a security device, will behave a like a parasite and continuously set off that device
BioSensor : attached to Spy tazer, when tazer is active, all living entities will glow, they not only appear on radar, but glow through walls , Bio sensor only works within field of view of the spy.
Bug: similar size to bots, but behave exactly like the biosensor by lighting up all nearby lifeforms, allowing to see them through walls. It is possible to attach these to lifeforms in order to track their movements.
WiFi : Merc has the ability to log into security network wirelessly, allowing him to view any cameras in the network. Cameras come in 2 standards. 1. Native networks, these are passive and cannot be controlled and lack any enhanced visions. 2. Hi level networks, uses the same technology the merc posseses and with shock resistent armor. Hi level networks are established via Cam Grenades which are launched from the weapon. they can still be destroyed from explosives.
Phosphorous Grenades: emit bright and intense light upon explosion, but also the substance sticks to the surface and burns for several seconds, causing severe burns to anyone that touches it.
Me likey. ;D
Like the tracking and the way you see them through walls. That will be cool!
i kinda like the idea of a better visualization with enhanced reality ghosts, it helps using hbs and sbs more effectively.
snares moving randomly is a totally new gadget. perhaps there should be some modes for snares: the way we already know, but with adjustable occurrance and volume of noises, and a second one that works for a shorter period of time but is moving randomly (maybe flying?; maybe setting off mtv?). it may also be interesting if there was the possibility to remotely activate/deactivate them. perhaps there should be two different gadgets. atm snares are almost only used (by good players) as a counter to eax superhearing, because they can be identified too easily.
phosphorous nades should work in some way spekkio or me have suggested in other threads.
to many options makes things complicated, these would serve as replacements to ct gadgets.
good ideas. i really like that wi-fi thing. but dont make it too much like DA!
nah...its basically camnet, but u can place your cams like a sticky cam. Balance wise it needs to be tested for how strong the deployment is.
its not a remote device like in DA that explodes.
one of the quirks of camnet is the more cameras you get, the more clumsy it gets. Some levels have several cameras, and others only 1-2. This either makes camnet powerful on some maps, or rarely used.
Also because of placement, it introduces a randomness to passive defenses, and I would like to see a more unpredictable gadget preferances by mercs.
I approve!
We have to be careful about the moving Bot. I'd be so pissed off if I shot it somewhere and after moving randomly it went through an alarm and fucked me up.
Just a thought..
I think he meant that it would only trigger an alarm if shot directly on a detection device.
I don't know about placeable camnet either, particularly if it has visions available on it. While I like having camnet as a merc, I often wonder if this gadget ruins the game. There literally isn't anything you can do about it except run around, forcing the merc to chase you rather than look through the eye-in-the-sky.
Perhaps camnet should be able to be disabled via sticky shocker. You won't be able to see exactly where the spy is going, but you'll be able to see where he was last.
uh, i think for a little createtivity, make Wi-Fi a gadget that can "jack-in" into the merc's camnet (static camnet, that is). it would be like in CT, where you can see what your partner is doing while in camnet, but cannot control it directly. of course, you could jack-in camnets that arent presently active, but w/e. i would love to see some type of cyber punk type of thing impalnted with this! (think of dystopia and System Shock)
nice gadgets kebab
Quote from: Spekkio on October 08, 2007, 03:30:16 AM
I don't know about placeable camnet either, particularly if it has visions available on it. While I like having camnet as a merc, I often wonder if this gadget ruins the game. There literally isn't anything you can do about it except run around, forcing the merc to chase you rather than look through the eye-in-the-sky.
Perhaps camnet should be able to be disabled via sticky shocker. You won't be able to see exactly where the spy is going, but you'll be able to see where he was last.
1. passive security is tazeable, has no visions, and you cannot control the view. -gives a very important reason for spy to see the cone of vision
2. Say 2 camnads. IF we made them shockable, then we have to give them some kind of stealth making them less visible....otherwise they become very weak.
currently the biggest compromise of camnet is the cost of taking it and little value of it on a lot of levels,
-maybe we just have 1 camnad then. Merc is able to pick it up and place it elsewhere.
the discussion about camnet just shows us the importance of map design balance-wise another time. there's no real need to change anything, it would be sufficient to get rid of the bugs and create a larger amount of balanced maps.
integrating passive cams in camnet sounds good at first, but makes no real sense: they'd trip the alarm anyways, but the mercs could see which one got disabled. for the sake of balance, i'd spread less controllable cams and large rooms, but more non-controllable cams (+cones visible in nv) + spy traps should be a viable option on every map (larger amount, vertically placable (maybe adjustable angle?), no insta mutual de-trap), too.
there are three concepts i liked about scda (not saying that they implemented them well): drones (alternative to camnet with some stay-whereever-you-are-mode?), destructible lightning and remote hacking.
Quotecurrently the biggest compromise of camnet is the cost of taking it and little value of it on a lot of levels,
The only levels it has little value are Orphanage, Warehouse, and Missile Strike.
You do realize that most of the maps will have to be different to avoid the whole copyright nonsense. We shouldn't be thinking about the maps we play now, but different maps. Maybe the gadgets should be thought of more when some maps are created.
I don't really like the idea of camgrenades. That'd be a bit too powerful IMO. In fact, a lot of maps you could probably completely lock down with that to the point where you always know which direction the spies are taking. For instance, on hospital you'd just toss a cam grenade outside and see if they head up the ladder. If they don't you know they've taken the sewers and there's like only two spots they can come out there. You can easily just have a merc waiting for them.
Possibly if they were just like a mine that you could place somewhere, it might work.
Still it'd be pretty dangerous, especially if you can place more than one. In such a case, I might recommend applying some kind of blur effect to the camera view and taking away its ability to MT and EMF vision. That way at the very least you can count on camo to beat camnet.
people will always be afraid of change, and doubtless they were afraid of changes from Pt to Ct and the countless threads of complaints.
We cannot use anything that looks like UBI maps, period. We can legally get away with similarities, but it has to be our own.
And I have judged the value of camnet, not by which map it is used on.....but by how often it is used.
That's a fallacy if I ever saw one. If you want to judge camnet by how often it's used, you would think it's absolutely useless. 95% of the time I see people taking double backpack. But trust me when I say that when the competition was better around this time last year and the tourney was wrapping up, all the teams that went late in the tourney used camnet. Snakebit and Solidus were the biggest camnet whoring team I ever saw, even using it on Orphanage.
Hell, if you want to judge things by common frequency these days, you'd be making PS into a deathmatch game. That's right -- most players online in CT these days play DM.
Maybe when you are on. I see more story than DM servers usually.
Camnet is really useful on a variety of maps.
Especially on polar base, deftech and river mall, it's a near infallible spy detector. It's also very good on factory as well.
Most people don't use it because it's sort of an expert skill gadget to use to full effectiveness. Even on river mall after I've pointed out the hologram room to people, they still for whatever reason don't take it... I have no clue why...
But in the case of camnet, frequency of use isn't equivalent to overall strategic value.
Quote
But in the case of camnet everything, frequency of use isn't equivalent to overall strategic value.
FYP
Also, of the teams that are top-notch and don't use camnet, I can't think of one who doesn't have a guy with exceptionally good EAX/hearing to make up for it (basically seefoo/vantage (seefoo) and kronf/lediniz (led)).
Camnet seriously is an ownage gadget.
Aqua: you immediately know where the spies are going; there is a camera in every room
Factory: same, plus standing in front of the spawn vent lets you know if the spies are going digger
Club: you know which entrance the spies are taking, spies can't go into garden without you seeing them
Orphanage: you know which entrance the spies are taking, but overall not very useful on this map
Missile: not very useful
Station: you limit the spies to using the one coop for tech room. Plus, IF they get by that you always know where they are in sector 1.
Museum: One guy checking camnet with the other EMF ghosting the ceiling can lock down the map nicely
Deftech: Overlooks main courtyard, gives a better view than you'd get just by standing on the box by C. Also has a cam in every downstairs building so you can check where the spies shoot out a security failure.
Warehouse: not very useful
Mall: Hologram, cam in lobby overlooks the entire room
Bank: you know exactly which entrance the spies are taking, from there it's a matter of just shooting fish in a barrel so long as you put proxies under all the entrances.
On top of that, it can be used infinitely and cannot be actively disabled by the spies. I also disagree about multiple cams making the gadget "clumsy;" simple teamwork will cut down the amount of cameras you have to check because your teammate is covering the other area. The only reason not to take it is to either try and give yourself a little more challenge in finding spies, or if you don't have a mic and are too lazy to type the room the spies are in.
When will you people stop making the comparison to how useful it is in CT? Read a few threads back - The maps will not be the same. This little fact invalidates all your opinions on how useful or un-useful it is. We are talking about completely different maps.
There is a lot that can be done when creating the map to control what the cameras can see.
If we are going to use a placeable camera then it will be balance tested as to how many placeable cameras are allowed by one Merc at a time and how vulnerable/visible they are.
Don't over-think it before it has been tested, seen in action and tweaked.
True but we aren't we aiming for a clone of CT, regardless if we can't copy their maps? We want maps that are at least going to be similar, or play similarly to CT, so it seems natural to compare camnet to CT maps.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on October 09, 2007, 12:54:58 AM
When will you people stop making the comparison to how useful it is in CT? Read a few threads back - The maps will not be the same. This little fact invalidates all your opinions on how useful or un-useful it is. We are talking about completely different maps.
There is a lot that can be done when creating the map to control what the cameras can see.
If we are going to use a placeable camera then it will be balance tested as to how many placeable cameras are allowed by one Merc at a time and how vulnerable/visible they are.
Don't over-think it before it has been tested, seen in action and tweaked.
Because Kebab is suggesting changing camnet so that the cameras can be placed anywhere by the merc and still cannot be disabled by the spies. Unless you feel like making the most convoluded rooms known to man, this is going to make an already over-powered gadget worse.
Also, Vega has a good point: even if you aren't going to copy CT maps, you still want to get the same SvM feel that we have in PT/CT. That means that map design is going to have to employ many similar concepts. Let's look at OilRig for an example: it plays and feels like a CT map, and camnet is uber in that map, too.
My point is that I believe the game would be better in general without camnet. You wouldn't even have to worry about this placement; instead, you could just focus on having the right amount of passive defenses and getting the overall map design correct. Otherwise you have to tow the line between camnet being too useful/not useful enough, along with whether or not there is enough or too much passive security with/without camnet. Oh, wait, I forgot the third scenario: there already is sufficient security, but with camnet it just becomes impossible to sneak anywhere.
The most probable result of the above, with camnet in the game, is one of two things: you either make camnet useless through lack of viewing angles and already sufficient passive security, or you make camnet a necessity due to too powerful viewing angles paired with a lack of sufficient security to compensate. CT has the latter, and the work that goes into balancing that all out is probably not worth keeping camnet over. Hell, Ubi, a professional gaming company, couldn't get the gadget right on 8/11 maps (10/13 if you want to throw Squat and Polar Base in there). Wtf makes you think that a bunch of amateur mappers who can't even turn out a halfway decent map are going to get it right, particularly if you give the mercs the ability to place the cams anywhere they want?
Regardless of how you make the maps, a gadget that has infinite use and has no way of being actively disabled short of one or both spies running around like madmen to keep the mercs moving is not a balanced gadget at all. It certainly doesn't need to be buffed by giving the mercs the flexibility to place it anywhere they want on the map.
Quote from: Vega on October 09, 2007, 01:05:10 AM
True but we aren't we aiming for a clone of CT, regardless if we can't copy their maps? We want maps that are at least going to be similar, or play similarly to CT, so it seems natural to compare camnet to CT maps.
No sir. We are not looking for a clone of CT. We are focused on the same game-play style, but can't make a clone of CT as to stray from the copyright BS. All the maps will have to be different unless they were maps created by users (Maybe UMP maps). Maybe there could be a UMP team for Project Stealth, but there has to be 8-10 maps that are brand new at the release that come with the game of course.
P.S. Spekkio is right. I feel Camnet needs to be hella watered down or just completely cut. Its a pretty significant advantage
I've always felt camo should be the counter to camnet whores.
Basically it's pretty easy.
-Take away camnet visions + laser/flashlight.
-Take away camnet zoom
-make camnet a low resolution view, so that camo is almost impossible to detect.
That's all you really need to do.
I mostly agree there (except the flashlight and low-res part), but Kebab wants to keep all that and give the mercs an ability to place them anywhere. The problem with making camo a hard counter to camnet is that neither side knows what gadgets they're taking beforehand. What if you don't ordinarilly use camo, but take it in anticipation that most mercs use camnet? Then what if he doesn't actually have camnet? Gadgets shouldn't be picked based upon whether or not they're going to be a hard-counter for the other team's equipment; they should be chosen based upon your play style and how you tend to approach the game.
Either that, or you get into the "must have" situation that we have with CT when it comes to the gasmask. See, you can choose not to take the gasmask, which is a hard counter to both cams and smoke. However, if you don't take mask you put yourself at risk for easy KOs, plus you slow down to a crawl in the smoke grenade cloud. The risk of not taking mask is not worth the reward of having another gadget. If camnet becomes or remains uber in PS, you create a situation where everyone practically must take camo to get around it.
I still don't think camnet is overall a good gadget for the game. Someone on the ubi.com boards made a post about how it'd be cool to look through the cameras on the map in PT and Ubi created camnet for CT. Some ideas are just better left on the drawing board. Personally, I like the feel of actually going out to hunt and finding spies rather than just using a camera network to know exactly where they're coming from. But, if you're gonna play to win, camnet's your 'man', so to speak.
I think the original balancing factor to camnet is to have the merc extremely exposed while using it. So we could probably make a delay between camnet and gas mask for easy camming or knock out the merc with a punch while in camnet from any direction.
And I'm sure every mapper is going to be so diligient as to make sure there are absolutely no "safety spots" for the merc where he can flip on camnet.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 09, 2007, 01:40:25 AM
I mostly agree there (except the flashlight and low-res part), but Kebab wants to keep all that and give the mercs an ability to place them anywhere. The problem with making camo a hard counter to camnet is that neither side knows what gadgets they're taking beforehand. What if you don't ordinarilly use camo, but take it in anticipation that most mercs use camnet? Then what if he doesn't actually have camnet? Gadgets shouldn't be picked based upon whether or not they're going to be a hard-counter for the other team's equipment; they should be chosen based upon your play style and how you tend to approach the game.
Well, it's not as if camnet is unbeatable without camo. Going with a passive agressive setup, it's easy to bypass camnet when you've got one spy being obvious and running interference, because mercs can't really look at camnet very well when a spy is shocking and droping nades on them.
Similarly, going straight aggro ignores camnet.
As far as any stealth setup, going camo is probably going to be a pretty staple gadget there.
Quote
Either that, or you get into the "must have" situation that we have with CT when it comes to the gasmask. See, you can choose not to take the gasmask, which is a hard counter to both cams and smoke. However, if you don't take mask you put yourself at risk for easy KOs, plus you slow down to a crawl in the smoke grenade cloud. The risk of not taking mask is not worth the reward of having another gadget. If camnet becomes or remains uber in PS, you create a situation where everyone practically must take camo to get around it.
Well, the difference is that I think camnet gets worse when you can't depend on it. If you know the spies might have camo, or even one of them has camo, you can't afford to completely rely on camnet to solve all your problems.
The thing with gas mask is that it's not a strong enough counter to prevent people from taking cams or smoke, because they're just plain useful anyway. The camo/camnet setup creates a sort of flip flop issue where the more spies take camo, the less mercs take camnet and vice versa. I think that'll probably be good enough as a balancing mechanic. If camnet is super dominant in a match, or you're just playing a bunch of camnet whores, you can bet the spies take camo and that balances the problem out, so long as camo is a strong enough counter. That's really why I suggested the low res display, just so that you're certain that the merc can't see camoed spies at all, since under the current view you can still barely see camo movement even zoomed out.
A low res display (I'm thinking the same resolution as a standard definition TV), would basically ensure that camnet can spot spies who are careless, but you should be able to sneak by.
Quote
I still don't think camnet is overall a good gadget for the game. Someone on the ubi.com boards made a post about how it'd be cool to look through the cameras on the map in PT and Ubi created camnet for CT. Some ideas are just better left on the drawing board. Personally, I like the feel of actually going out to hunt and finding spies rather than just using a camera network to know exactly where they're coming from. But, if you're gonna play to win, camnet's your 'man', so to speak.
Well I think camnet is a pretty cool idea, and I don't feel its inherently unbalanced. In fact, I think it showcases a few problems with map design.
The camnet should be placed in areas such that you can avoid them. If there's no path that bypasses the camnet (whether by travelling in shadows or through vents or side routes), the camnet location is probably too good.
But really, some camnets are fairly easy to replicate by just having a merc stand there. For instance the river mall lobby cam is just about the same as a merc standing on the rail up there and overlooking it. I think it's more a problem with map design that that's so hard to bypass. There needs to be more shadows or something. Or maybe that second floor music shop vent shouldn't have a see through gate, and should just be a plain wall.
Deftech needs way more shadows on that outside area.
I'm pretty convinced we can balance camnet and have it be at least reasonably useful without totally destroying the game.
Another idea to nerf camnet is to include a natural panning motion (not user controllable), similar to normal passive defense cameras. So that a spy can slip by while the camera is panned the other way if he's cautious. We may also want to implement some kind of tunnel vision to camnet too, so it doesn't have the same width as a normal merc view, just to narrow its cone of sight.
Every thought voiced as a concern about balance has a relatively easy answer and quite a few of the concerns are making the assumption that the gadget will just be thrown in with no testing and no real restrictions placed on the device. Give us a little credit here. We're not morons.
Edit: Don't forget there will be plenty of testing in which everything will be exploited to the fullest to make sure it is not overpowered.
Quote from: goodkebab on October 07, 2007, 10:40:05 PM
take note the reason why i have changed names , but also enhanced functionality.
Bots: emits sounds that set off merc reticle.....
-very small, and when shot on to a surface will immedietly move acrossed surface in a random direction to set off sounds from a different location
-if shot onto a security device, will behave a like a parasite and continuously set off that device
BioSensor : attached to Spy tazer, when tazer is active, all living entities will glow, they not only appear on radar, but glow through walls , Bio sensor only works within field of view of the spy.
Bug: similar size to bots, but behave exactly like the biosensor by lighting up all nearby lifeforms, allowing to see them through walls. It is possible to attach these to lifeforms in order to track their movements.
WiFi : Merc has the ability to log into security network wirelessly, allowing him to view any cameras in the network. Cameras come in 2 standards. 1. Native networks, these are passive and cannot be controlled and lack any enhanced visions. 2. Hi level networks, uses the same technology the merc posseses and with shock resistent armor. Hi level networks are established via Cam Grenades which are launched from the weapon. they can still be destroyed from explosives.
Phosphorous Grenades: emit bright and intense light upon explosion, but also the substance sticks to the surface and burns for several seconds, causing severe burns to anyone that touches it.
All good, but they need bad ass acronyms example wifi = AIDS: Automated Intruder Detection System
now everyone will be afraid of AIDS...
Quote from: Gawain on October 07, 2007, 11:52:23 PM
i kinda like the idea of a better visualization with enhanced reality ghosts, it helps using hbs and sbs more effectively.
snares moving randomly is a totally new gadget. perhaps there should be some modes for snares: the way we already know, but with adjustable occurrance and volume of noises, and a second one that works for a shorter period of time but is moving randomly (maybe flying?; maybe setting off mtv?). it may also be interesting if there was the possibility to remotely activate/deactivate them. perhaps there should be two different gadgets. atm snares are almost only used (by good players) as a counter to eax superhearing, because they can be identified too easily.
phosphorous nades should work in some way spekkio or me have suggested in other threads.
I like the idea of multiple setting for "snares" perhaps the ability to remote trigger them to make noises using a designated key, example press N and it'll make noise for 3 seconds then stop, maybe you can do this like... 1-3 times? i dunno just thinking...
QuoteI'm pretty convinced we can balance camnet and have it be at least reasonably useful without totally destroying the game.
It's not a matter of whether or not it can be done -- nearly anything can be done. It's a matter of whether or not it's worth it. Seriously, I think you guys are vastly underestimating the work that is going to go into balancing this single gadget considering that Ubi couldn't get it right on the vast majority of their maps. On top of that, people are going to have to design their maps around this gadget, and striking that perfect balance between uber camnet and useless camnet along with all the other defenses is going to be insanely difficult.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 09, 2007, 05:55:00 AM
It's not a matter of whether or not it can be done -- nearly anything can be done. It's a matter of whether or not it's worth it. Seriously, I think you guys are vastly underestimating the work that is going to go into balancing this single gadget considering that Ubi couldn't get it right on the vast majority of their maps. On top of that, people are going to have to design their maps around this gadget, and striking that perfect balance between uber camnet and useless camnet along with all the other defenses is going to be insanely difficult.
You might be right. Though really, designing a map for this game is a very difficult process anyway, so I'm not sure camnet makes that huge of a difference. Still, seeing as bad camnet locations can break a map (rivermall is probably the best example). It may be best to err on the side of caution and not include camnet.
Still though, I don't see it being a huge deal if we can implement camnet in such a way that camo can always sneak by undetected.
camnet can be balanced by good map design and some restrictions on it (automatic movement pattern, small vision cone, low res, battery timer etc etc). if it's too much expense for the map designer, he can just leave out camnet on his particualar map.
I lol'd at the AIDS thing haha. :D
If you look at the CT maps, you can see that most of them are quite balanced because you can't see in vents or passageways that spies usually use. But every once in a while you will get an uncareful spy that you see on your camnet, that is how camnet should be anyways imo.
camnet is supposed to help you cover maps that are just a little bit too big/complex to cover with patrols only. there are two (of the good maps, i totally don't care about aqua, ware, deftech...) maps where camnet is a pain in the ass: river mall and factory. river mall can easily be fixed just by removing camnet from the hologram room, whereas the central camping point aka corridor B is the main problem. without camnet it's balanced, because you are effectively blind in/around there and have to patrol.
edit:
got a balancing idea that could easily applied to maps: no radio reception in some areas (like 20m around all corridors on factory).
what do you mean radio reception? Like voice communication goes out?
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 11, 2007, 03:35:14 AM
what do you mean radio reception? Like voice communication goes out?
I figure he meant that the camnet tool doesn't work.
Well that makes sense then lol
Not glue-cam? :'(
Hey. Sorry. Couldn't edit my previous post, since I'm on my Nokia mobile phone, and the forum has a simple mobile layout. Anyway.
The camnet, is a surveillance system, right? So why don't we call it Survey? LOL
Sorry, but I'm really bored at school :P
See you later! (Auch... A long message on a mobile phone keypad >.<)