Well, this was a gadget I just thought up. The spy reticule. Don't be too quick to judge because I want to discuss it, this is just something I literally thought of 2 mins ago. It's developing in my mind as we speak lol
I was thinking. I remember people talking about giving spies a gadget to easily detect mines and such. And with all the talk about hearing nades fired across the map and yadda yadda... It got me thinking about a possible gadget. And that is the spy sound reticule. It works like the camo suit, meaning that your battery energy drains when you use it. When you activate it, you get a reticule on your screen like the merc's that detects sound. I was thinking that it wouldn't detect the sounds of a merc making footsteps, but rather the next few things:
Frags/flares being fired
Mines/spy traps being planted
Mercs/spies landing from a height
Doors opening/closing
Proxy Mines beeping
Gunshots being fired
Maybe the sound of a merc talking on his mic?
Of course, it woudn't tell you what that sound actually is, only that a sound is coming from that direction. Meaning that it could have been any of those things listed above. It would make it a little bit easier to find mines and it would let you know which direction a frag is coming from. The problem is that takes energy and only lasts a little longer than a full battery of camo suit. You would be able to use other gadgets while using it, but not camo. You can use the ss but it would drain your energy extremely fast.
Suggestions? What should the sound detector pick up?
OR, you could make an alternative mode for heartbeat that you can select before the game starts. The hearbeat gadget wouldn't detect mercs, but instead it would detect mines/traps and show it to you on your radar. This wasn't my idea so I take no credit for it but I am bringing it up again.
Sound pretty cool, but since you can't tell the difference between mines and nades and such, it would be almost useless.
You'd be able to tell if it was a proxy or not because of the constant beeping pattern. Like the reticule would go something like this if was picking up a proxy - Detection.....Detection.....Detection....Detection And so on... PLUS, if you can actually hear the proxy with your own ears, you will know that it is actually picking up a proxy right? Then the detector would help you locate it by telling you the direction it is coming from. Same goes for a launched grenade. If you can actually hear the nade being fired with your own ears, the detector would help you find what direction it came from and go the opposite way. Plus it would let you know where the merc was that fired it because it pointed you towards him.
It might turn out to be pretty good imo.
So....you can hear any merc, anywhere fire his gun or does distance figure into it somehow?
Of course distance plays into it. But it also depends on how loud the sound is right? Like you wouldn't be able to detect a beeping mine from across the map, but rather like 20 feet or so. I'm guessing you'd be able to hear the gun from about 150 feet away (although unrealistic) it would work that way. It would be a very general direction it gives you because of the distance.
What if you could hear the merc talking on his mic? I mean detect the sound on the reticule of course, not hear what he is saying ( that is a different topic although it would be awesome to hear a merc from 10 feet away, and be able to talk to him lol )
I think it would be useful, but not overpowered. Mostly because it eats up your energy and it has a limited amount of time for use.
lets not forget it would make you show up on EMF like camo :)
Hmmm... I forgot about that. Maybe, maybe not.
Should the spy have this by default? Unless you mean hearing aids, because of all of the flash bangs.
I suggested this a loonng while back ;)
What? Did you suggest this as a gadget?
And no Kubanator. This would be selectable as a gadget.
I suggested the sound reticule but not exactly as you have done:
http://www.projectstealthgame.com/index.php/topic,343.msg6243.html#msg6243
In mine it didn't point at direction of the sound but maybe it should :S My idea was also that the dot in the center acted as a cursor to interact with objects whereas your is a gadget.
I think SD for spies has been mentioned quite a few times though.
I don't think a cursor will look right. Some other indicator may though.
Not in the middle of your screen. Maybe it would appear in your HUD though... I think I remember saying that in Tidenburg's thread.... Yep, I just checked, and I did say that. ;D
I think that below the spy would look fine. Like at the bottom of your screen in the middle. That way it doesn't interfere with your view but it may block the view of the spy's butt, which I am sure you guys don't really care about. Unless you like virtual asses or something lol
I didn't search for this because mainly, I just wanted to bring it up again. Mainly because of all the talk about things relating to it lately.
I guess it could be cool to have it as a gadget...
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 06:08:37 PM
Not in the middle of your screen. Maybe it would appear in your HUD though.
I think that having it in one of you HUD's corners would be the best.
Well in the corner it would be weird because it would point a different way. It needs to be in the middle of your screen but on the top or bottom edges Know what I mean? Like imagine having your sound reticule as a merc on the side of your screen. That would get confusing wouldn't it? It's hard to explain, but it needs to go on the top or bottom, but still be centered where the actual spy is.
A little off topic but what about a light/dark sensor like in single player.
It would be handy when u are in visions. Sometimes I find myself crouch-walking into lit areas when i have visions on and then the merc spots me and I can't get away cause I am crouch-walking or slow crouch-walking.
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 11, 2008, 11:08:55 PM
A little off topic but what about a light/dark sensor like in single player.
It would be handy when u are in visions. Sometimes I find myself crouch-walking into lit areas when i have visions on and then the merc spots me and I can't get away cause I am crouch-walking or slow crouch-walking.
You should be more aware of your surroundings
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 11, 2008, 11:08:55 PM
A little off topic but what about a light/dark sensor like in single player.
It would be handy when u are in visions. Sometimes I find myself crouch-walking into lit areas when i have visions on and then the merc spots me and I can't get away cause I am crouch-walking or slow crouch-walking.
It wouldn't work - it doesn't matter how light the area you're in is, as much as how bright your background is.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 06:25:52 PM
Well in the corner it would be weird because it would point a different way. It needs to be in the middle of your screen but on the top or bottom edges Know what I mean? Like imagine having your sound reticule as a merc on the side of your screen. That would get confusing wouldn't it? It's hard to explain, but it needs to go on the top or bottom, but still be centered where the actual spy is.
Not really...it'd still point to the right, left, infront or behind...
I can't see how that can be confusing just because it's in a corner of the screen. It's not like the sides changed because of that.
I know but it would seem like that. It would also be easier to look at something that is on the bottom of your screen in the middle, than it would be to look at something to the side of your screen. Meaning you'd have to move your eyes to the side of the screen just to see what direction a sound came from.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 12, 2008, 05:48:17 AM
I know but it would seem like that. It would also be easier to look at something that is on the bottom of your screen in the middle, than it would be to look at something to the side of your screen. Meaning you'd have to move your eyes to the side of the screen just to see what direction a sound came from.
Unless you have a 30+ inches display, you don't have to move your eyes much, if at all.
I like this idea a lot. As a new gadget feature.....nice thinking Papa and Tiden for that matter.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on January 11, 2008, 11:18:16 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 11, 2008, 06:25:52 PM
Well in the corner it would be weird because it would point a different way. It needs to be in the middle of your screen but on the top or bottom edges Know what I mean? Like imagine having your sound reticule as a merc on the side of your screen. That would get confusing wouldn't it? It's hard to explain, but it needs to go on the top or bottom, but still be centered where the actual spy is.
Not really...it'd still point to the right, left, infront or behind...
I can't see how that can be confusing just because it's in a corner of the screen. It's not like the sides changed because of that.
Yeah, I can see what you mean. I am used to playing on 40+ inch TV's. I think my monitors size is 22", or something like that. It wouldn't be too bad. But, I imagine playing as a merc without the reticule centered. Or DA without the PD ring thingy centered. I don't know. I still think it would be better on the top or bottom in the middle, but it wouldn't be bad in the corners.
Top or bottom in the middle is the way to go. If you aren't going to have it in the middle of the screen, it needs to be on the top/bottom in the middle then. If it is off to the corners, its out of eyesight and might actually be considered a waste of a gadget, depending on the size of the reticule.
Question...if you're using the gadget, does it light you up in EMF? Or should it only light up the gadget you are using. This quiestion might even go for more than one thing. I could understand the sticky shocker/sound reticule detector/visor of visions being lit up, but not your whole body.
I guess you would, just like if you were using the heart beat sensor or shooting your spy bullets.
IMO all of spy body should be lit up cause it could be problematic to notice on emf and it shouldnt work like this.
Make the gadget glow normally, while the rest of the body should be only a ghost (maybe even slightly more visible)
edit: that's assuming that if you don't use anything you're invisible.
Why nerf EMF? I don't really see a problem with it right now. I'm not entirely sure if you should light up while using this. You guys can discuss it, but either way it doesn't really matter to me. But since it isn't an actual electic device, like goggles and camo suit are, I don't think that it should show up.
You show up by just using your weapon (and technically that wouldn't make your body glow either) so why wouldn't you show up on EMF in this one too?
It's not a visible gadget, it only goes on your HUD. The ss is visible.
Well, the spies googles are visible at all times. That's why there is the spies emf ghost.
Sounds a lot like my idea for the echo-suit, that I posted in another thread. It however was completely ignored. This is something that I might use.
Not trying to offend anyone who likes this idea but I'm going to be blunt.
Using Chaos theory as a familiar reference point:
Is it that hard to locate mines using tools such as thermal vision and your own two ears? - NO
Is it that hard to learn where the good mine placements are? - NO
Is it that hard to use a spy bullet or a heartbeat sensor to locate a merc? - NO
Is it that hard to learn the areas where it smart for the Merc to be for quick access to the objectives he is guarding? - NO
Is it hard to hear gunshots or grenades from a significant distance away even without EAX - NO
Should you write a book about this gadget called "The Gadget for Dummies" - YES
This gadget would overlap functions and be akin to giving a perfectly able man a handicap cart to help him get around just because he is lazy and doesn't want to put out the effort. Do you not want to have to pay close attention? Do you not want to have to learn the levels and both team's strategies so you can out think your adversary?
And that's my rant, take it or leave it, like it or not.
i agree with binary
nice rant :)
You don't have to pull out your gun to use it. You can use it while moving and not have a handicapped speed. It can hear doors opening and closing. EAX will be nerfed, so I hear, or it will be removed. Another use I suggested for this is the ability to detect mercs who are using their mic and talking. Heartbeat can't do that. Maybe if you are close enough it will let you hack in and hear their conversation.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 15, 2008, 03:46:33 AM
You don't have to pull out your gun to use it. You can use it while moving and not have a handicapped speed. It can hear doors opening and closing. EAX will be nerfed, so I hear, or it will be removed. Another use I suggested for this is the ability to detect mercs who are using their mic and talking. Heartbeat can't do that. Maybe if you are close enough it will let you hack in and hear their conversation.
If you had a gadget that could tell you the distance at which a merc was from you, would you use it: YES
You can hear where a merc is now because of EAX. With EAX you shouldn't be able to hear how far some1 is. And not having to whip out your gun (shows EMF) or shoot a spy bullet (heard by merc) would be stealthier than ANYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME. Spy reticule is brilliant if you could use it correctly and it were designed correctly.
No offense Binary because you listed some factual instances.
The human mind is like a parachute...it only works if it is open. We aren't in Chaos Theory anymore.
Very well aware of that West :) But as there are not concrete names for the gadgets in Project Stealth it was the only medium that provided easy communication of the fact that this gadget does way to much and makes it way to easy for the spy. There needs to be a human element, that is where the real skill comes into play and separates the great from the mediocre. Like you said, Project Stealth is not CT and for that very reason this gadget would be far to powerful, even more so than in CT.
Mines... picking up mines? seriously... Without sound-loss and with visions and your own damn ears... You've gotta be kidding me... It will either be overpowered or utterly useless.
Edit: I played for a very long time without using EAX because I used a USB headset; if you really listen there are a lot of things you can hear. EAX does give a pretty ludicrous advantage but even without EAX it is quite easy to pick up a merc's footsteps and determine the direction. The only time it's a real issue is when there is a lot of environmental noise. That same noise is also a problem with EAX though.
i agree with binary 100%.
pros would never waste a slot for that gadget, and noobs would use it instead of learning the game.
know what would really be the "next step" even if it doesn't sound that open-minded (parachute rofl nice1): a good sound implementation. it sounds easy, but is indeed a very complex task, especially in a stealth game. the whole balance and gameplay depends on it...
Quote from: Gawain on January 15, 2008, 12:08:11 PM
i agree with binary 100%.
pros would never waste a slot for that gadget, and noobs would use it instead of learning the game.
know what would really be the "next step" even if it doesn't sound that open-minded (parachute rofl nice1): a good sound implementation. it sounds easy, but is indeed a very complex task, especially in a stealth game. the whole balance and gameplay depends on it...
I feel, that before we downplay the whole spy reticule thing, it should at least be tested. Can I get some devs views/opinion on this topic?
I think it could be a nice replacement for heart beat sensor. I guess wheter or not you'll appear on the radar has to be tested.
I wasn't suggesting a replacement. But if it shows sound on your radar it could work. If it replaces it then you would have to show up on EMF while using it. I was really suggesting an alternative gadget for recon, like bullets and hbs. It would have its upsides and downsides, but hey, every gadget does.
I think that instead of having 4 distinct directions it should give the exact direction. Like an arrow that goes around the circle and points directly to the sound. And not just left right straight or behind you.
I thought of it as a replacement because I think that 3 gadgets doing basically the samething is not needed.
It doesn't do the same thing. It has a larger range than hbs, but it doesn't put them on your radar like hearbeat does.
Here's something else I was thinking of.
Just an electronic detector for spies, not even heartbeat. It detects electronics like mines and spy traps and a reticule guides you toward them. Like I said before it wouldn't be like the mercs reticule. It would point straight to it. Not just left, right, straight and behind. It has a full circle of directions, meaning it would be pretty much infinite directions. Think of it as a wheel, it can turn in a circle straight towards the electronic. It points towards mines, spy traps, lasers, cameras. It could maybe even tell you what it is that it is detecting. Like above the reticule it could say "proxy mine" or "laser grid". If you go that way and give it that ability, it would have to have a limited time of use, like it takes up energy. It might be op though. It was just a thought.
Very OP.
Noobs would waste a gadget slot instead of learning the game.
How about just beeping, no direction, and only 1-3 uses per life?
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 15, 2008, 08:21:33 PM
It doesn't do the same thing. It has a larger range than hbs, but it doesn't put them on your radar like hearbeat does.
I said it does BASICALLY the same thing. The 3 gadgets have the function of finding where the merc is. You won't see him on the radar but you'll still know if he's to the left, right, infront or behind you.
They basically do the same thing, yes. But they do it in a different way. With the sound detector it doesn't detect things only to the left, right, in front, and behind you. When in fact it detects thing in a full circle and gives you the exact direction that a sound comes from, rather than the 4 direction arrows like the merc reticule.
and wtf do you guys mean by wasting a gadget slot instead of learning the game? You still learn the game, you learn how the gadget works. It would help you pinpoint which way a sound comes from. Like if you heard a door open but you don't know which one opened or what direction it came from, if you had your spy reticule on then you could be able to tell which door opened.
I think that if it had the ability to hack into speaking mercs automatically when they are close to you, it would be pretty cool to use. Like the ability to hear a merc within 5 meters of you would be a nice new ability for the spies for a gadget.
Obviously, you can hear a gunshot regardless of whether you have this gadget or EAX. But this would help you see the exact direction it came from. It isn't always so clear as to where a sound came from. If you are in pirates room for example and you hear a gunshot come from the general area of tech room and greek. If you had the reticule you'd be able to tell what room they are in. This same kind of example can also apply to doors opening/closing. It is never clear to me which direction a door opens/closes either. I can tell however, that a door opened/closed. With the reticule I'd be able to tell which door opened/closed.
Maybe it would make sounds appear on your radar? Like if a door opened/closed (I know you are getting tired of this example lol) it would show a little bleep on your radar and you could tell exactly what door it was that was activated. It would be useful if you could keep this on all the time without it draining your battery. Maybe to balance it you could make it last 35-40 seconds per life.
that makes more sense then it detecting electrical devices, still not sure if it would be balanced tho
Because you know... You won't know what the doors sound like and what door is within audible range... And the gunshots... well chances are if it's not near you it's your partner so that requires a gadget to figure out... ;)
If you have ears you know what the doors sound like. The reticule points you toward where it came from. Any loud noise, doesn't matter if it is a gunshot, will work in this case.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 16, 2008, 04:58:58 AM
If you have ears you know what the doors sound like. The reticule points you toward where it came from. Any loud noise, doesn't matter if it is a gunshot, will work in this case.
He was being sarcastic
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on January 17, 2008, 02:52:41 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 16, 2008, 04:58:58 AM
If you have ears you know what the doors sound like. The reticule points you toward where it came from. Any loud noise, doesn't matter if it is a gunshot, will work in this case.
He was being sarcastic
In a good natured fashion of course ;)
I agree with b1nary. This idea is retarded.
@spekkio lolz your so blunt
Quote from: Spekkio on January 17, 2008, 01:32:04 PM
I agree with b1nary. This idea is retarded.
Wow thanks for your good natured opinion.
And I know binary was being sarcastic. If you read my post I explained something.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 17, 2008, 01:32:04 PM
I agree with b1nary. This idea is retarded.
Binary never said the idea was retarded. To be a tad more useful, why not elaborate as to why this idea is retarded? We live in a world of justification...so get to it.
it would do as good to the gameplay as a gadget that gives you more armor, makes you run silently, helps you aim etc. it's bs to help players with less experience this way...
there's no need at all to add any new recon tools, just fix the sound so that the mercs can play a little stealth again and the spies stand a chance with a stealthy approach without snares.
The point of gadgets is to help the player and possibly use them against their opponents for their own advantage. This wouldn't be like a gadget that gives you more health or any of that bs. I don't see how it would. It's just like the mercs reticule except it's for a limited time use. How is the mercs reticule like a gadget or feature that would make your run faster or give you shields?
The big difference is that the mercs reticule is not a gadget. Because you will always have it, there's no point in learning how to play without it.
If it gets in, it would probably become a gadget anyway. Else it will outbalance the advantage of the merc IMHO.
sound interpretation and experience where and when the mercs will appear is part of the game and seperates players of different skill. with a good sound implementation (eg hearing nades shot from mid distance etc), the hbs and spy bullets are way enough (if not too much) for recon.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on January 17, 2008, 09:03:32 PM
If it gets in, it would probably become a gadget anyway. Else it will outbalance the advantage of the merc IMHO.
If? If a gadget with these features made it into Project Stealth I would lose all faith in the rest of the Development Team and consider my time with this project at its end. No joke. It isn't needed and in trying to balance this it would either wind up too powerful or absolutely useless with the kind of features being suggested.
To quote Spekkio "Let's just give the Spies a rocket launcher."
Edit: Where's Daybreak to give us a little image of Spies fragging mercs, bloody limbs flying through the air...?!
Okay that's where I draw the line. Honestly. Come on now. You guys are making it seem like a gadget that can either be completely op (like a rocket launcher ffs seriously now) or that it would be useless. A rocket launcher? Get real. It's just something to help people interperet where a sound came from. Especially if someone has a shitty sound card/a shitty speaker set up. I know you were being sarcastic but rocket launcher will never equal something like this. Going by that logic hbs = rocket launcher or flamethrower
no.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 17, 2008, 06:56:24 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on January 17, 2008, 01:32:04 PM
I agree with b1nary. This idea is retarded.
Binary never said the idea was retarded. To be a tad more useful, why not elaborate as to why this idea is retarded? We live in a world of justification...so get to it.
B1nary already did a fine job of it. Go read his post on page 3 or 4.
And yes it is a fine rant. But he is missing the functionalities and uses of the gadget. He has ignored what it could actually do.
Quote from: Gawain on January 17, 2008, 09:22:52 PM
sound interpretation and experience where and when the mercs will appear is part of the game and seperates players of different skill. with a good sound implementation (eg hearing nades shot from mid distance etc), the hbs and spy bullets are way enough (if not too much) for recon.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 17, 2008, 10:16:20 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on January 17, 2008, 09:03:32 PM
If it gets in, it would probably become a gadget anyway. Else it will outbalance the advantage of the merc IMHO.
If? If a gadget with these features made it into Project Stealth I would lose all faith in the rest of the Development Team and consider my time with this project at its end. No joke. It isn't needed and in trying to balance this it would either wind up too powerful or absolutely useless with the kind of features being suggested.
To quote Spekkio "Let's just give the Spies a rocket launcher."
Edit: Where's Daybreak to give us a little image of Spies fragging mercs, bloody limbs flying through the air...?!
Why don't we just call this game "Chaos Theory + Tweaks: Next Generation"
Seems fitting since keeping an open mind is practically impossible here. All that is happening so far are new model designs and tweaks to certain gadgets. If you can't keep an open-mind when doing any project....why bother?
Just forget that any new gadget was ever thought of....because it automatically doesn't fit Project Stealth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this gadget. It is neither unbalanced nor overpowering for the spy AND IT TAKES UP A SLOT. Try it before you hate on it. Or is it "too time consuming"?
And Binary's rant is just that...a rant. All of his points can be disproven or adjusted to show how incorrect he just might be. Maybe you should read it again...with less of a rant mentality, and more of a "what would you answer and how can each one of those options either be changed or tossed completely."
Also, trying to say that you will quit the project because you don't like AH gadget shows awesome character. Your dedication has been awesome thus far, but why say such a thing? To sway the views of everyone else? "OH NOES...BIN4RY LEAVES IF WE HAVE SPY RETICULE..../WORLD" Don't manipulate.
What I don't get is that he will leave if this gadget is even considered. ALL gadgets should be considered because they could work out great for gameplay. The popular ideas should be tested and see how they actually perform and not what we speculate about their peformance/balance.
Here is a little scenario of what new gadgets could do for gameplay. Note that some of the gadgets were already discussed and not wanted...
A spy is sneaking around in a large area like the main room in factory. A merc is patrolling the walkways overlooking the large area the spy is in. The spy wants to keep moving quickly but still be able to detect mercs. So, he activates his spy reticule.
The merc sees the spy and so he uses a grappling hook to swing down over the railings onto the floor where the spy is. The spy detects the sound of the grappling hook and turns to see the merc landing on the ground right behind him. At this point he only has one shot left on his ss because of the energy the reticule used. He gets off one shot and tazes the merc just in time. He hallucinates/flashes the merc. The hallucination nade makes images of spys appear in the corner of his screen. He realizes they are hallucinations and he sees what he thinks is the actual spy and chases it.
He chases the spy for a good 10 seconds and sees that he goes through a wall. It was a holopod.
Meanwhile the spy is escaping and heading for an objective. At the objective he sees that a merc is planting mines. The spy sees that his teammate is trying to sneak around the mines and get to a passageway that leads to the objective. The spy then uses his hack glove to slowly get a few seconds shaved off of the objective. The merc storms in and uses his adjustable flashlight and finds the spy. He puts a few bullets the spy's chest and shoulder. The spy dives over a ledge using an escape move and throws a smoke down on the merc. Stupidly, the spy has NV turned on just because of the sheer darkness of the map and how hard it is to navigate without it. The merc flips on EMF and puts a bullet right in the spy's gut killiing him instantly. The spy hears the gunshot and sees a splat of blood on the wall behind his partner's dead body.
It's all up to him. He decides to take an aggro approach. He puts a hologram of a crouched spy in the objective room. He runs up, hacks the objective for 2 seconds and hides behind the door. He waits for the merc to come in. He does. The merc foolishly charges the hologram and hits the wall, the spy then runs up quickly and grabs him. The spy throws a bunch of chaff down in the room around him and begins to hack the objective manually. The other merc throws a grenade into the room but the chaff disables the frag for just the right amount of time to finish the objective.
HOLY SHIZA! Did I write all of that? :o I think that would be some good gameplay though...
Damn, I'm bored. But yeah, that's a scenario that I could come up with that would only come from new features/gadgets...
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 18, 2008, 06:59:32 PMAlso, trying to say that you will quit the project because you don't like AH gadget shows awesome character. Your dedication has been awesome thus far, but why say such a thing? To sway the views of everyone else? "OH NOES...BIN4RY LEAVES IF WE HAVE SPY RETICULE..../WORLD" Don't manipulate.
It's not about manipulation but rather to illustrate how strongly I feel about this. You will also note I specifically stated that I feel that way about the gadget with its current suggested features. I wouldn't play the game if it had a gadget like this. Why then would I want to spend my time helping to create it!?
EDIT: It should also be noted that I am in no way disillusioned, this is team is not lucky to have me. Quite the opposite, I consider myself fortunate to be a member of this team. If I left they could easily replace me thus trying to manipulate anyone with a threat to leave would be completely retarded and accomplish nothing.
I really hate saying an idea is terrible because I'm a firm believer that a horrible idea can evolve into something quite useful. In this case I just can't see how that can happen. I've given it quite a bit of consideration and there is nothing that has been posted and nothing I can come up with that validates the need for a gadget like this. There are however quite a few good arguments against it; very solid arguments. Don't ask me what they are because they have pretty much all been posted already and you can read through this thread for yourself.
It's not about not having an open mind either, it's about knowing where to draw the line and differentiate good and useful from bad and pointless. Sure some people have crappy speakers etc etc but this mod is being made for UT3. If your system can run UT3 then you can afford at least stereo speakers and stereo speakers are enough to hear a sound and your brain is perfectly capable of ascertaining the source and location based on experience. If you make a game where nothing is based on experience then you've created a game that is less challenging than it could be.
papa, if you have problems with sound awareness and locating, you should get some good headphones and a decent sound card (both not that expensive compared to a gfx card) and not urge for some crappy gadget that would only help noobs with less experience and add nothing to the gameplay. your example with the merc grappling down behind the spy is just ridiculous, this would never ever happen to a good spy and the spy should be punished for his bad recon/awareness.
there's so much to fix regarding the ct sound, and a gadget like this would even complicate the sound system for no reason at all.
i'm really happy that a member of the dev team finally draws a line against your stupid gadget suggestions. the problem is not that you do some brainstorming and present your ideas, the problem is that you lack ct pc experience and that you spam threads and posts for topics not worth further discussion.
A gadget idea is never stupid when backed up with arguments. If you think the arguments are void, that's your opinion. At least he took the time to list reasons.
Quote from: Gawain on January 18, 2008, 11:43:19 PM
i'm really happy that a member of the dev team finally draws a line against your stupid gadget suggestions.
Please don't put words in my mouth or attempt to interpret my intentions beyond what I have said. I very specifically stated THIS gadget THESE features and I don't particularly appreciate the spin you put on what I've had to say.
I also appreciate and respect Papa's efforts to contribute ideas for Project Stealth. The fact that I don't think this one is a good gadget for Project Stealth means nothing except that very thing - I don't think this is a good idea for Project Stealth. Nothing less, nothing more.
Quote from: Gawain on January 18, 2008, 11:43:19 PM
papa, if you have problems with sound awareness and locating, you should get some good headphones and a decent sound card (both not that expensive compared to a gfx card) and not urge for some crappy gadget that would only help noobs with less experience and add nothing to the gameplay.
I have no problems with sound awareness. It's hard for everyone to pinpoint a location that a sound comes from. Regardless of how efficient your ears/sound card are. I can hear things, sure (except maybe nades fired at long distances due to the lack of EAX or just a difference of PC-console), but it is hard to tell which direction it comes from - not to mention the exact point. This is why I also suggested putting a blip on the radar where the sound came from.
your example with the merc grappling down behind the spy is just ridiculous, this would never ever happen to a good spy and the spy should be punished for his bad recon/awareness.
If he hadn't used the reticule for RECON then he would have been punished, by death. Understand?
there's so much to fix regarding the ct sound, and a gadget like this would even complicate the sound system for no reason at all.
complicate it? How exactly? IF anything, it would help it.
i'm really happy that a member of the dev team finally draws a line against your stupid gadget suggestions. the problem is not that you do some brainstorming and present your ideas, the problem is that you lack ct pc experience and that you spam threads and posts for topics not worth further discussion.
What the hell? Where did you get that idea? If that was so all of my topics would have been deleted. PLEASE, don't twist words.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 19, 2008, 01:32:09 AM
I also appreciate and respect Papa's efforts to contribute ideas for Project Stealth. The fact that I don't think this one is a good gadget for Project Stealth means nothing except that very thing - I don't think this is a good idea for Project Stealth. Nothing less, nothing more.
Thanks. And I admit that some of my ideas weren't that great, the score system for example.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 18, 2008, 09:35:28 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 18, 2008, 06:59:32 PMAlso, trying to say that you will quit the project because you don't like AH gadget shows awesome character. Your dedication has been awesome thus far, but why say such a thing? To sway the views of everyone else? "OH NOES...BIN4RY LEAVES IF WE HAVE SPY RETICULE..../WORLD" Don't manipulate.
It's not about manipulation but rather to illustrate how strongly I feel about this. You will also note I specifically stated that I feel that way about the gadget with its current suggested features. I wouldn't play the game if it had a gadget like this. Why then would I want to spend my time helping to create it!?
Just don't use the gadget if you think it is so useless. And if it so useless I am sure you would have no problem whatsoever playing against someone who IS using it.
EDIT: It should also be noted that I am in no way disillusioned, this is team is not lucky to have me. Quite the opposite, I consider myself fortunate to be a member of this team. If I left they could easily replace me thus trying to manipulate anyone with a threat to leave would be completely retarded and accomplish nothing.
I understand that completely. Your first post on that topic just made it sound a little like a threat though :P
I really hate saying an idea is terrible because I'm a firm believer that a horrible idea can evolve into something quite useful. In this case I just can't see how that can happen. I've given it quite a bit of consideration and there is nothing that has been posted and nothing I can come up with that validates the need for a gadget like this. There are however quite a few good arguments against it; very solid arguments. Don't ask me what they are because they have pretty much all been posted already and you can read through this thread for yourself.
No solid arguments for it? How? It seems there are a few people that would find a use in this gadget. Mainly, this is a gadget so you can do recon, but still be able to move full speed. Of course it isn't the best method for recon, but you won't lose time using it or make yourself a sitting duck like heartbeat makes you. It's just an alternative method for locating on the fly. Heartbeat doesn't allow you to do that.
It's not about not having an open mind either, it's about knowing where to draw the line and differentiate good and useful from bad and pointless. Sure some people have crappy speakers etc etc but this mod is being made for UT3. If your system can run UT3 then you can afford at least stereo speakers and stereo speakers are enough to hear a sound and your brain is perfectly capable of ascertaining the source and location based on experience. If you make a game where nothing is based on experience then you've created a game that is less challenging than it could be.
It's not about speakers. Speakers don't help you pinpoint locations on your radar or point you to them. You just hear them. Unless you have surround sound. Even then, it doesn't help you know exactly where a sound came from. Another thing I suggested is letting this device give players the ability to automatically hack into merc communications when they are in a range of 2-3 meters. It wouldn't tell you that you can hack of course. But if you hold down the hack button you'll hack into their conversation and maybe download the text chat? New idea. Now that would be a use we would all like right?
Don't get me wrong. I can understand everyone's opinion here. I just have a different one, and so do others, it's all cool.
WOW! Another monster post by Papa Skull. :D Most of it was quotes though...
i agree with binary once again, papa i love your input, but I think that this one idea is not need just because of the way that they are going to implement sound etc vs SC
Well that's cool man. Anyone else got anymore opinions on this? Or suggestions/modifications? I still believe that making hbs have the alternate option to detect electronics rather than heartbeats would be terrific. That's an optional feature, not a additional feature. Meaning you choose whether you want your hbs to detect hearbeats or electronics before the game starts.
I understand your reasoning Binary, but it doesn't fully cut it for me. Maybe if we could talk about it some more. This gadget would not at all be pointless. The additions Papa throws out there are kind of funky, but a simple sound reticule for spies is purely ingenious.
I like how Gaiwan attacked Papa, though I was the one that made such a ruthless post.
Seriously. Come on Gawain. As if the ban gawain thread wasn't enough.
you need no fancy sourround system for good sound location, normal hifi headphones do better in absolutely every aspect (besides body sound perception). i got beyerdynamics dt880pro (plugged into cmoy hp-amp + auzentech prelude) and it's absolutely insane how precise you can locate sounds and how many details you hear. i bet you never tried playing with decent sound card and headphones...
if you want an amazing example for this, organize some good headphones, xfire me/google it and i'll send you "virtual haircut", a binaural recording.
papa, in your example, the spy should die because he did no recon BEFORE (recon should take a certain effort/time/planning) and he used NO SKILL to do so and DIDN'T GiVE HE AWAY HIS POSITION BY USING THIS TOOL (like bullets would do in most of the cases).
in a stealth game, everything is about awareness and experience, so sound/graphics are a very complex issue, and so are tools like a sound radar or vision modes. it's a bad idea to take away this aspect of the game and it would be really hard to balance unless you wanna make it a tool for noobs-meds with no headphones. it's not hard to get that...
@binary: i didn't want to put false words into your mouth, my english simply isn't that good. i have nothing against new ideas. but i do have something against ignoring arguments against those and spamming stuff like papa does.
Skill? Effort? Tell me how hbs requires skill or effort. All you do is swing around in a circle. Does it really take a lot of skill to do that? Spy bullets maybe.
Btw I wasn't even giving examples. I was just writing a scenario that could be possible by considering new gadgets/features. And will that headset really put a blip on your radar where a sound came from? Or will it just let you know the direction it came from, like I said before. And will that headset let you hack into closeby mercs? Nope.
Just because I don't agree with you on some aspects doesn't mean that I ignore them. Spamming? Hardly. I've got the same amount of posts you do. In fact, less. And it isn't spam, are you serious? Those are all suggestions of new gadgets/features that I think might be interesting to look into. If you disagree that's fine with me. But ffs, just stop attacking everyone. I think we've all had enough.
Actually my research for Human Computer Interaction shows that people are perfectly able to pinpoint sound, when they have a proper sound card (didn't work on my laptop) and a good headset.
lawl, i have a AC'97 soundcard and the Fatal1ty Headset, and i can hear clearly in a 5-7 meter radius (not eax style, but i sometimes can hear a spy pulling his gun out) :P
hbs allows you to track mercs through walls and no matter if they make sound (no function overlapping hbs<=>ears). in order to use it, you have to pull the gun which takes time (especially in stealth mode) and allows almost no movement. it's range is also quite limited. if a merc is too close, you give away your position. it's a quite balanced gadget on most maps.
fyi: it's quite possible to play without hbs and bullets at all, just by trained awareness and experience.
now what you're suggesting is something very similar to ct's motion tracking vision, but for spies. you can already hear and locate sounds with your ears, but it helps you to do better. thus, good players will never waste a slot on it unless it detects important sounds you cannot hear without it (for instance, merc going into sniper zoom in far distance) which would make it mandatory thus inbalanced.
Quote from: Gawain on January 19, 2008, 01:50:27 PM
fyi: it's quite possible to play without hbs and bullets at all, just by trained awareness and experience.
But if you play like that, you have to be prepared to get surprised by mercs sooner or later. :D
Quote from: Gawain on January 19, 2008, 01:50:27 PM
hbs allows you to track mercs through walls and no matter if they make sound (no function overlapping hbs<=>ears). in order to use it, you have to pull the gun which takes time (especially in stealth mode) and allows almost no movement. it's range is also quite limited. if a merc is too close, you give away your position. it's a quite balanced gadget on most maps.
fyi: it's quite possible to play without hbs and bullets at all, just by trained awareness and experience.
now what you're suggesting is something very similar to ct's motion tracking vision, but for spies. you can already hear and locate sounds with your ears, but it helps you to do better. thus, good players will never waste a slot on it unless it detects important sounds you cannot hear without it (for instance, merc going into sniper zoom in far distance) which would make it mandatory thus inbalanced.
If a merc is close to a spy and the spy whips out HB sensor, then he is heard. If a merc is close by and the spy activates his sound reticule, he is not heard and therefore still undiscovered. Thus, a good player would use it because its actually a tool thats more useful than the rest. Also, this has no relation to MT. It is related to the sound reticule. Did you read the thread? Its quite possible to play without any gadgets Gaiwan. Shooting a bullet is practically a give away. You can tell what room the spy is in, unless he's smart and disposes of a lot of them early. With the new sound we all don't kno what to expect. I still say let it be tested. Maybe it will sway your opinion towards liking it if it were tested. If its a waste of a gadget slot, then it would act like phosphorous nades.....a waste of a slot but a unique tool.
I don't understand this reasoning. If it is going to be so useless, why do you care? If you can't find a use for it, don't use it. And if it's so useless you should have no problems going up against it right? Other people here seem to be able to find a use for it.
hbs slows you down. This does not. It's good for picking things up on the fly. You don't have to stop, whip out your gun, and make a full spin. You just can't pinpoint sounds regardless of your sound system. Sure, you can hear what direction it comes from but that could be a lot of places. If you are playing against mercs who makes a lot of noise this is a great gadget. If a merc is jumping on rails constantly and off rails constantly this is going to let you know where he is most of the time. If a merc is talking on his mic constantly it's going to point your right toward him.
if it picks you up for communicating with your mate this gadget enforces peope to shut up which is a bad thing for the social aspect.
i really can't see in which way a gadget like this would improve the gameplay. if you add complexity, you should do it for a good reason and not simply because you consider something useful or offering more possibilities.
Offering more possibilities is a good reason.
Quote from: Gawain on January 19, 2008, 08:51:23 PM
if it picks you up for communicating with your mate this gadget enforces peope to shut up which is a bad thing for the social aspect.
i really can't see in which way a gadget like this would improve the gameplay. if you add complexity, you should do it for a good reason and not simply because you consider something useful or offering more possibilities.
Well gasmask didn't stop people from taking smoke or sticky cam did it? No. It's the same principle. This won't stop people from talking either. The reason is because no one knows if they are using the gadget or not. Like I said before it wouldn't indicate if you can hack or not. That would let the spy know that a merc is around him, and that would be bad. Bad because mercs wouldn't be able to pull off sneak attacks or attacks from behind.
Variation in gameplay will keep the game fresh for so much longer. Take GoW for example. It was just like a core game. An assault rifle, a shotgun, a pistol, a sniper, a rocket launcher. Basically. The game was basically just get to cover, then roll around, then try to shotgun the guy while turning around. There was like NO variation in gameplay. That's how the game went 99% of the time. PS absolutely NEEDS variation to keep the gameplay to last longer than CT's did. The game needs to have all of those unexpected encounters and battles. A great way to do that is to add more gadgets/features. In fact, it's the only way.
Don't forget that we can add and edit new things when necessary.
i think this gadget would be good for the demo
i would like to test it out
after that the devs and comunity can see if it should stay, changed, or removed
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 20, 2008, 02:14:11 AM
i think this gadget would be good for the demo
i would like to test it out
after that the devs and comunity can see if it should stay, changed, or removed
*Cough* BETA *Cough*
*cough* thats what i meant *cough*
lol :D
Thats what I've been saying this entire time.....
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 19, 2008, 09:38:13 PM
Offering more possibilities is a good reason.
too many possibilities and guessing games are bad for the gameplay.
don't forget that the gadget choice possibilities will increase dramatically with fixed camo sound/influence on mt, fixed snare sound, more reliably flash bang effect, balanced smoke on the spy side and useful tazer, useful shotgun, uzi not causing lags/hit animation tractor beam, maybe phorphorous nades as a replacement for flares, more and vertically placable spytraps etc.
there will also be new maps with new interactive elements. i really don't think this will get boring soon...
Quote from: Gawain on January 20, 2008, 01:44:27 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 19, 2008, 09:38:13 PM
Offering more possibilities is a good reason.
too many possibilities and guessing games are bad for the gameplay.
Thats why you make a beta version. TO TEST.
Quote from: Gawain on January 20, 2008, 01:44:27 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 19, 2008, 09:38:13 PM
Offering more possibilities is a good reason.
too many possibilities and guessing games are bad for the gameplay.
don't forget that the gadget choice possibilities will increase dramatically with fixed camo sound/influence on mt, fixed snare sound, more reliably flash bang effect, balanced smoke on the spy side and useful tazer, useful shotgun, uzi not causing lags/hit animation tractor beam, maybe phorphorous nades as a replacement for flares, more and vertically placable spytraps etc.
there will also be new maps with new interactive elements. i really don't think this will get boring soon...
Possibilities aren't bad for gameplay. If guessing games are so bad for gameplay why have gasmask or smoke/sticky cam? Wouldn't they be bad for gameplay because you would have to guess if they are using smoke or vice versa? And it's always like a more educated guess than anything. Like on warehouse, the merc is most likely going to bring gasmask, and the spies are most likely going to bring an aggro loadout to try and gas the mercs. You can make a good prediction based on the map and the enemy's playstyle.
Tell me how one or two more gadgets would make this a totally random game. Tell me how adding new moves is going to make this a random game that requires guesswork. It just won't.
I say we just put this on the things to beta test. If everyone puts more input or suggestions on how they think this gadget might work, it could turn into something that everyone would like to see. That is what we would test later.
it's pointless for me to take part in this discussion any longer cause you guys simply don't get my point.
I do see your point. But just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean I don't see it. I can understand your thinking, but you aren't seeing it the way some of us are.
Quote from: Gawain on January 21, 2008, 10:15:48 PM
it's pointless for me to take part in this discussion any longer cause you guys simply don't get my point.
Its not that we don't get your point. Its that your point is specifically opinion based to whatever you want. I wonder how many times I've said "open-mind" on this thread or on this forum in general. Maybe, you aren't getting our point.
Gawain thinks that having an open mind means that you are open to small bug fixes and changes. It's not. It's thinking outside the box. The box is CT, it needs to have some things to keep the gameplay fun for a long time. Even you guys must be able to admit that the game isn't as fun as it once was. The usual spots, tactics, gadgets, etc...
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 23, 2008, 02:11:10 AM
Gawain thinks that having an open mind means that you are open to small bug fixes and changes. It's not. It's thinking outside the box. The box is CT, it needs to have some things to keep the gameplay fun for a long time. Even you guys must be able to admit that the game isn't as fun as it once was. The usual spots, tactics, gadgets, etc...
LOL...speak solely for yourself.
Imo, it's the games internal randomness that we don't want. Randomness caused by players is the positive one.
Never really thought of it that way. You are absolutely right!
The game was fun to me when the unexpected happened. Now you can predict what will happen because you already have a lot of experience. It's never too much of a surprise anymore. Variety in gadgets and features will offer much more surprises.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 23, 2008, 02:11:10 AM
Even you guys must be able to admit that the game isn't as fun as it once was. The usual spots, tactics, gadgets, etc...
I only stopped playing regularly because I got pissed at always having to play with a 250+ ping after 2 years, not because the game "lost its fun". I'd surelly go back if I found that brazilians had started playing again or that misteriously US had gotten closer to brazil and my ping is only 50. haha
Lol
Well, I've stop playing it a whole lot because it's not as intense as it once was. It's gotten pretty predictable. Is it the people I play with? Meh, don't think so. This is just what happens after a game gets years old. It's not as fresh as it was in the beginning.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 23, 2008, 05:00:41 PM
Lol
Well, I've stop playing it a whole lot because it's not as intense as it once was. It's gotten pretty predictable. Is it the people I play with? Meh, don't think so. This is just what happens after a game gets years old. It's not as fresh as it was in the beginning.
it will be fresh: new/fixed graphics, new/fixed sound, new/fixed gadgets (that make actually sense not like your suggestions; fixing the ct ones is enough for the beginning and probably for a long time), better net code, hopefully larger player base, new maps,...
no offence (honestly), but from what you write i can tell with 100% certainty that you aren't at least middle skilled in this game. you didn't even discover 50% of the stuff this game has to offer, and with the "non-open-minded small changes" i suggest the possibilities will increase dramatically. do some math and figure out what only one or two more useful gadgets do to the possible gadget combination.
what would keep this game fresh is lots of competitive players that play in a creative way (which is only possible in a balanced environment and with a better turial and maybe a replay system) and new maps.the real question is: what made all those great players stop playing ct? certainly not the lack of a fancy sound reticule for spies...
Quote from: Gawain on January 23, 2008, 06:10:59 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 23, 2008, 05:00:41 PM
Lol
Well, I've stop playing it a whole lot because it's not as intense as it once was. It's gotten pretty predictable. Is it the people I play with? Meh, don't think so. This is just what happens after a game gets years old. It's not as fresh as it was in the beginning.
it will be fresh: new/fixed graphics, new/fixed sound, new/fixed gadgets (that make actually sense not like your suggestions; fixing the ct ones is enough for the beginning and probably for a long time), better net code, hopefully larger player base, new maps,...
no offence (honestly), but from what you write i can tell with 100% certainty that you aren't at least middle skilled in this game. you didn't even discover 50% of the stuff this game has to offer, and with the "non-open-minded small changes" i suggest the possibilities will increase dramatically. do some math and figure out what only one or two more useful gadgets do to the possible gadget combination.
what would keep this game fresh is lots of competitive players that play in a creative way (which is only possible in a balanced environment and with a better turial and maybe a replay system) and new maps.
the real question is: what made all those great players stop playing ct? certainly not the lack of a fancy sound reticule for spies...
I forgot this forum read "be as much of an asshole as possible." Well, you're not quite there yet, but getting closer. Why don't
YOU go make a Chaos Theory 2 with all the bug fixes and play it by your lonesome. Project Stealth IS NOT CT. I think you should have to write that on a chalkboard somewhere about 300 times. Maybe then it will sink in.
Playing in creative ways means using different gadgets and manipulating the merc with them, all while maintaining a stealthy style. Why did players stop playing CT you ask? Well, a lot still play (first of all). Second of all.....who the fuck knows. Real life. Ever heard of that one before.....real.....life. Just because you aren't open to any change at all with PS, doesn't mean you have to try and bring others down with you. You keep up with the close-minded statements because that's what you're good at. You have to realize some of us are here to add input to the creation of a new game.....not a sequel.
Gawain. How the hell can you play creatively with a small choice of gadgets? You sure as hell can't really use them in a creative way either. The reason good players SUPPOSEDLY stopped playing isn't because the small, minor, bugs.
Quotei suggest the possibilities will increase dramatically. do some math and figure out what only one or two more useful gadgets do to the possible gadget combination.
lol. If you think about it, there would be a lot more possibilities for loadouts. Minor changes increasing possibilities? HOW? It will just change the possibilities, not make more. Maybe you should do some math and see how many more possibilities there will be with new stuff. Even with not that much.
Quote from: Gawain on January 23, 2008, 06:10:59 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 23, 2008, 05:00:41 PM
Lol
Well, I've stop playing it a whole lot because it's not as intense as it once was. It's gotten pretty predictable. Is it the people I play with? Meh, don't think so. This is just what happens after a game gets years old. It's not as fresh as it was in the beginning.
it will be fresh: new/fixed graphics, new/fixed sound, new/fixed gadgets (that make actually sense not like your suggestions; fixing the ct ones is enough for the beginning and probably for a long time), better net code, hopefully larger player base, new maps,...
1. Graphics don't make the game. Example: Crysis. Amazing graphics, decent gameplay. If you give Crysis even better graphics it won't keep the game fresh for a longer amount of time. And what new gadgets do you suggest? My gadgets do make sense. Just not to you. Think outside the box-again.
How about some new gadget ideas instead of beating this one to death? Everyone has made their points, some think it's great, others hate the idea.
Move on, nothing but the same old -
"I'M RIGHT U STFU"
"U STFU U GOT NO SKILLZ"
crap is taking place here.
If you don't agree, you don't agree, everyone has their right to their own god damn opinion - MOVE ON...
OMG some reason finally yay 4 binary :) <3
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 24, 2008, 12:38:50 AM
How about some new gadget ideas instead of beating this one to death? Everyone has made their points, some think it's great, others hate the idea.
Move on, nothing but the same old -
"I'M RIGHT U STFU"
"U STFU U GOT NO SKILLZ"
crap is taking place here.
If you don't agree, you don't agree, everyone has their right to their own god damn opinion - MOVE ON...
Other gadget ideas under the thread "Possible Sound Reticule for Spies?"
We've been trying to talk about this new gadget. No other new gadget has been spoken about aside from fixes, new nades, and maybe a drone (for merc). And it sucks when you only get input from like...2 devs. Got anything else for us to talk about 01010101010?
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 24, 2008, 02:15:00 AM
OMG some reason finally yay 4 binary :) <3
Don't be a kiss ass. No one likes a kiss ass. You can kiss me though....uh....i mean....hey there. Haven't ever seen you around Fusion. Play CT?
Westfall feels strong cause he has sonic as avatar. Watch out.
Quote from: neth on January 24, 2008, 10:14:06 AM
Westfall feels strong cause he has sonic as avatar.
You fail.
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 24, 2008, 02:15:00 AM
OMG some reason finally yay 4 binary :) <3
Don't be a kiss ass. No one likes a kiss ass. You can kiss me though....uh....i mean....hey there. Haven't ever seen you around Fusion. Play CT?
[/quote]
Im not at kiss ass binary is cool and right on the ball most of the time.
I do play CT however i haven't play in like 2 weeks, maybe I can get on tonight :)
What time zone are you in westfall, im EST.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 24, 2008, 07:36:56 AM
No other new gadget has been spoken about aside from fixes, new nades, and maybe a drone (for merc).
My point exactly.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 24, 2008, 07:36:56 AMGot anything else for us to talk about 01010101010?
No, every gadget I've thought of I think it through before considering a post to make sure it would be useful. So far I can't think of anything. But, I don't have time to spend on that when I've got other things in PS that I need to be focusing on. Then there's that whole real life thing that takes up a good chunk of my time.
You're Mr. Parachute and Mr. Outside-the-Box; I keep waiting for some ideas from
you! ;)
As I've said before. Just because YOU speculate that YOU won't find a use for it, doesn't mean that it WILL be useless. Just like WE speculate how it will be useful, we really can't. Imo, it should be tested. A lot of people have thought that. This was off the top of my head, obviously it wasn't very well thought out. Brainstorming. That is what you are supposed to do when you are making something. You need to get all of the ideas out there then you throw the good ones into it. If this doesn't develop into a good idea that's fine, we can move on, you are right about that. But as of now, just because we have a split opinion on this as a community I still believe we should discuss a little more and work out the kinks.
How about giving oil traps to mercs, so when they detonate they leave a pool of oil?
QuoteYou're Mr. Parachute and Mr. Outside-the-Box; I keep waiting for some ideas from you!
There aren't that many new ideas that can be brought to the table because of how style-specific PS is. Thats why when there a gadget that comes up, such as this, its kind of like a "eureka!" Trying to think within the limits of what the game IS makes it quite difficult to throw any new gadget ideas out there. I want to start beta testing and playing the game so we as a community can fix it, add new ideas, take things away, and possibly help produce a decent game with excellent feedback. You shouldn't allow every1 to beta test either.
Quote from: neth on January 24, 2008, 05:06:34 PM
Quote from: Overstatement on January 24, 2008, 11:40:30 AM
Quote from: neth on January 24, 2008, 10:14:06 AM
Westfall feels strong cause he has sonic as avatar.
You fail.
how come ??
Neth, you can't ask to be my friend on x-fire and not know who my avatar is. =)
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 24, 2008, 01:51:18 PM
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 24, 2008, 02:15:00 AM
OMG some reason finally yay 4 binary :) <3
Don't be a kiss ass. No one likes a kiss ass. You can kiss me though....uh....i mean....hey there. Haven't ever seen you around Fusion. Play CT?
QuoteIm not at kiss ass binary is cool and right on the ball most of the time.
I do play CT however i haven't play in like 2 weeks, maybe I can get on tonight :)
What time zone are you in westfall, im EST.
I was on last night playing some ggs with KJ and Cowboy. Yes I'm EST. Add me on your x-fire (jameswestfall). Always looking for people to play. I won't be around this evening....or this weekend really. During the week I'm quite free at night due to my lack of any classes this semester. I have to pass one test to graduate, so I'm wasting the next few months of my life.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 24, 2008, 05:00:35 PM
As I've said before. Just because YOU speculate that YOU won't find a use for it, doesn't mean that it WILL be useless.
When I approach an idea I don't approach it on a personal level. I'm not saying I succeed in remaining 100% unbiased but in the reasons I gave for this particular idea I'm pretty sure they were unbiased.
1. I considered the use of this gadget and the features suggested from the viewpoint of your average player.
2. I look at what we are already providing the players in the way of recon tools - Sound, Visions, Life Sensor, A shootable tracking and radar device, Cams.
3. I take into account what the player provides themselves with - knowledge of the map layout, knowledge of the strategies employed by each team and how to use those strategies against their oponant, deception, quick thinking and adaptation to the unexpected.
None of the suggested features are something your average player can't accomplish with the visual and audio queues already in place, and a little practice.
So there you have it. There's the reasoning I use when considering the viability of an addition to PS.
You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree and that's all I have to say on the subject so good luck and have fun ;)
Quote from: neth on January 24, 2008, 05:06:34 PM
Quote from: Overstatement on January 24, 2008, 11:40:30 AM
Quote from: neth on January 24, 2008, 10:14:06 AM
Westfall feels strong cause he has sonic as avatar.
You fail.
how come ??
lol, you double fail :D
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 24, 2008, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 24, 2008, 05:00:35 PM
As I've said before. Just because YOU speculate that YOU won't find a use for it, doesn't mean that it WILL be useless.
When I approach an idea I don't approach it on a personal level. I'm not saying I succeed in remaining 100% unbiased but in the reasons I gave for this particular idea I'm pretty sure they were unbiased.
1. I considered the use of this gadget and the features suggested from the viewpoint of your average player.
2. I look at what we are already providing the players in the way of recon tools - Sound, Visions, Life Sensor, A shootable tracking and radar device, Cams.
3. I take into account what the player provides themselves with - knowledge of the map layout, knowledge of the strategies employed by each team and how to use those strategies against their oponant, deception, quick thinking and adaptation to the unexpected.
None of the suggested features are something your average player can't accomplish with the visual and audio queues already in place, and a little practice.
So there you have it. There's the reasoning I use when considering the viability of an addition to PS.
You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree and that's all I have to say on the subject so good luck and have fun ;)
I see your logic. But you are failing to realize something. If you hear something you only know the direction it came from, not the actual pinpointed spot. And even then, you don't know the exact direction. You'd still have a wide range of directions. Maybe this gadget would even amplify the sound for you so you can tell what the sound was. (if the reticule detects the sound of a merc planting a mine, it would amplify the sound for you so you can tell that he was planting something. Although, you wouldn't know what he was planting.) On top of that this gadget gives you an easy communications hacking ability. Other gadgets don't give you a very easy way to do that without exposing your position.
As I also said after what you quoted me on, we can't really tell if it would be useless or useful. This is something that would need to be tested to see for sure.
No, direction = pinpointing. I studied it.
The problem with new ideas is that it's very hard to give new ones, not knowing at what stage of production the game is right now. I also proposed some time ago, that devs should ask us from time to time about things theyre not sure - like the Blizzard does.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 24, 2008, 07:07:30 PM
Neth, you can't ask to be my friend on x-fire and not know who my avatar is. =)
In this case I leave, you wont see me again.
Quotelol, you double fail Cheesy
I never fail 8)
No. Direction=/=pinpointing. For example you could hear something from Pirates room coming from tech room. You could hear that the noise came from tech room, that's the direction, but you can't tell where from tech room, that's pinpointing.
When the sound is properly made, and there are no obstacles like walls, you can pinpoint it.
Quote from: frvge on January 24, 2008, 08:35:00 PM
When the sound is properly made, and there are no obstacles like walls, you can pinpoint it.
There will be walls for the sake of gameplay, so yes, there will be lots of pinpointing.
Quote from: frvge on January 24, 2008, 08:35:00 PM
When the sound is properly made, and there are no obstacles like walls, you can pinpoint it.
lol, there are walls in every sc map. Except for a few areas.
if there is one useful thing that could be discussed here, it's the mercs' sound reticule. there's probably way room to improve its balance...
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 24, 2008, 09:08:36 PM
Quote from: frvge on January 24, 2008, 08:35:00 PM
When the sound is properly made, and there are no obstacles like walls, you can pinpoint it.
lol, there are walls in every sc map. Except for a few areas.
Normally, you can't really hear stuff if it's not loud and if it's blocked by a wall. CT's sound is highly unrealistic. Especially with the wrong EAX implementation.
If there's sound in Tech and you're in Pirate, you shouldn't even hear it. And I doubt the reticle will ping, unless it's a gunshot or an explosion.
That's an advantage to using the gadget frvge. You WOULD be able to hear things, even blocked by walls, even if they aren't totally loud. Like planting traps and mines for example. You'd be able to pinpoint it on your map for a few seconds and it would point you toward the sound. When using the gadget, the sound that it picks up would be amplified.
Yeah, the sound system is unrealistic. But is that what the devs are aiming for? Is a realistic sound implementation? I'd rather shoot for a balanced one.
Quote from: Gawain on January 24, 2008, 11:00:29 PM
if there is one useful thing that could be discussed here, it's the mercs' sound reticule. there's probably way room to improve its balance...
Eh, not really. It's already balanced imo. What's wrong with giving hbs the alternative of finding electronics? That's definitely something to talk about.
There's a lot wrong with making it find electronics.
You have visions and audio queues to identify electronics.
It would make mines and traps absolutely useless and they are already ineffective against a careful and knowledgable spy.
It's been explained to you in a multitude of ways Papa. I don't know what else to say... If you don't get it then I guess you just don't get it.
I think your gadget is a bit too farfetched. It's like a no-clip hack. Worse than normal HBS, because that's got a smaller range.
Not sure whether or not you were talking about the reticule or the hbs. If you were talking about reticule here is my response : It's not only for finding electronics. It just lets you know that an electronic was planted in that area. Keep in mind that you can't use this gadget for an infinite amount of time. It's for pinpointing where a sound came from. The fact that you can only use it for the amount of time you can use camo for wouldn't make mines useless.
If you were talking about hbs finding electronics here is my response: I agree now that I think about it. I really just put it out there for discussion and I didn't have much of an opinion on it.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 25, 2008, 01:12:42 AM
It would make mines and traps absolutely useless and they are already ineffective against a careful and knowledgable spy.
Again, this is not true. If you were referring to the reticule.
i say no to hbs sensing electronics
and a half yes to the soudns reticule i tihnk it needs some testing, or maybe a side implimentation.
also i cant remeber where i read it but someone said about including one gadget as permanente, i think this a good idea, i find my self in many situation where im either lacking gas mask, back pack or tazer as merc, and camo as spy.
if mercs always had one of the above mentioned and spy always had camo it would be kinda cool
also we could have the possiblity of a 5th gadget slot instead, im not sure how it would be for balance tho
I'm still iffy on the whole 5 gadget slot idea.
the 5 / 1 permanent gadget slot idea is actually one of the few suggestions worth trying.
Why? If you don't choose a gadget, you shouldn't get it. 4 gadget choices, why more?
spekkio explained it sufficiently
Quote from: Gawain on January 26, 2008, 12:07:02 PM
spekkio explained it sufficiently
Did he really? If I do recall that thread died because a 5th gadget slot is probably the most unnecessary thing to add to PS. There is absolutely no need for a 5th slot. Main theme on these forums are balance. Adding a 5th slot isn't balance at all. Rather, its just a little more mayhem.
More =/= better
The only exception to that rule is having more choices for those 4 gadget slots. In that case, more = better Seriously, why not make PS2 have 6 gadget slots then? You don't have to increase it. I don't see a real benefit to the gameplay because of this. This might be balanced out if you can only carry like 3 of each gadget. And that's kind of dumb imo.
Quote from: Gawain on January 26, 2008, 01:30:25 AM
the 5 / 1 permanent gadget slot idea is actually one of the few suggestions worth trying.
Why do your posts always sound like "I are god, I speak true" ?
Well, i agree with 5/1 gadgets, IF it counts the ss/ glove as the predefined ones.
That's actually a good suggestion koka. I would like the glove. Just not the f'd up one from DA.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 26, 2008, 05:30:18 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 26, 2008, 12:07:02 PM
spekkio explained it sufficiently
Did he really? If I do recall that thread died because a 5th gadget slot is probably the most unnecessary thing to add to PS. There is absolutely no need for a 5th slot. Main theme on these forums are balance. Adding a 5th slot isn't balance at all. Rather, its just a little more mayhem.
Um, yea, I think I did make a decent case for expanding the amount of gadget slots. But to sum it up for you again:
First, some math:
In PT, you could take 4/6 gadgets = 2/3
In CT, you can take 4/8 gadgets = 1/2.
If you expand gadgets to 5/8, 1/2 < 5/8 < 2/3. So you still get to select a lower % of equipment items than in PT even with being able to pick 5 gadgets.
Second, some reasoning:
The only reason the current system works so well is because each side has at least two useless gadgets. On the merc side, flares, tazer, and to a lesser extent spy traps aren't very useful. Therefore, the player really only has a "choice" between 5-6 of the gadgets anyway, thus putting the ratio back in PT's realm. The thing is, two gadgets were useless in PT as well (snares and phosphorous), so you pretty much had no choice between equipment at all.
On the spy side, you have camo and to a lesser extent snares and bullets being useless -- at least when compared to the usefulness of other equipment. Therefore, again the spy only has a choice between 6-7 out of the 8 gadgets. Yet I do find myself wishing for an extra gadget slot as spy much more than I do as merc because I do actually use snares.
Now, if PS does what it aims to do and rebalances the equipment so that everything is equally useful given the right situation, you are going to run into a serious crunch when it comes to equipment. "Expanding" the slots to still wouldn't allow the teams to take as many gadgets, percentage wise, as in PT. To me, it makes little sense why one would add two gadgets per team to the game, but not expand the amount of items the sides could take.
Third, some balancing:
There are some equipment combinations, particularly on the spy side, which could be used with a fifth slot, but currently leave the spy too handicapped. One example is snares + camo. With only two slots left, you now have to choose among a wide array of equipment that is just "too good" to let go. Chaff disables like every defense in the game. Cams give you another way to KO mercs. But if you take those two, you are left without a way to escape when you're in a pinch via smoke and chaff, and you're left without any sort of recon. You're simply sacrificing way too much to take an equipment combination that doesn't compensate for it. The result is that almost everyone takes a similar loadout of smoke or flash, cams, chaff, and hb sensor.
On the merc side, let's assume that the tazer is useful again. What are you going to give up for it? You already have the bullcharge for close up spies. Mines? No, those are too good. Frags? Ditto. Backpack? Ok, one merc can afford to give that up, but not both. Mask? Ha! Camnet? Depends on the map. Basically, everything that is common now is just way too integral to give up, so no matter how much you buff tazer/flares, the mercs aren't going to change their loadout that much.
In summary: increasing the loadout capacity would increase the variety in the game. You can easily balance stuff out via tweaking the gadgets themselves and the maps after the fact.
The argument for a set slot:
I was in support of this idea for camnet, but now that I think about it, it makes more sense with mask. The reason is, I don't think that either side should have to play a guessing game to hard-counter the other side's equipment when you are locked into your choice for the duration of the match. Not that there's much of a guess since 99.9999999repeated% of players take sticky cams, so the mask isn't really a risk, but in concept it's not good to have that "guessing game" mechanic with A counters B counters C. If we give mask to mercs, then the question becomes what to give to spies? I would think that camo makes the most sense, since it fits in with the whole stealthy theme of it.
IF the "gimme gadget" were in place, then I would say to leave the selectable slots at 4/7. If not, and I am by no means a staunch supporter of the "gimme gadget," then I would fully support expanding the loadout to 5 items.
I think that's a pretty sufficient explanation, don't you? At least, it's much better than your "I don't want to change it because this is the way it was in CT" argument.
I might be okay with it if there are more gadgets to choose from. And if you get less of each gadget. But that can't happen if everyone is so entirely against new gadgets. I still think that 4 slots are perfect, but 5 slots would change gameplay drastically. I don't know if it would be for the better.
actually if we get enough new gadgets there would be potential for a gimmie and a 5th slot.
however im not saying that either side really needs this as is.
I have gadgets at F1-F4. And putting my finger from F4 to F5 sucks.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 29, 2008, 02:41:08 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 26, 2008, 05:30:18 PM
Quote from: Gawain on January 26, 2008, 12:07:02 PM
spekkio explained it sufficiently
Did he really? If I do recall that thread died because a 5th gadget slot is probably the most unnecessary thing to add to PS. There is absolutely no need for a 5th slot. Main theme on these forums are balance. Adding a 5th slot isn't balance at all. Rather, its just a little more mayhem.
Um, yea, I think I did make a decent case for expanding the amount of gadget slots. But to sum it up for you again:
First, some math:
In PT, you could take 4/6 gadgets = 2/3
In CT, you can take 4/8 gadgets = 1/2.
If you expand gadgets to 5/8, 1/2 < 5/8 < 2/3. So you still get to select a lower % of equipment items than in PT even with being able to pick 5 gadgets.
Second, some reasoning:
The only reason the current system works so well is because each side has at least two useless gadgets. On the merc side, flares, tazer, and to a lesser extent spy traps aren't very useful. Therefore, the player really only has a "choice" between 5-6 of the gadgets anyway, thus putting the ratio back in PT's realm. The thing is, two gadgets were useless in PT as well (snares and phosphorous), so you pretty much had no choice between equipment at all.
On the spy side, you have camo and to a lesser extent snares and bullets being useless -- at least when compared to the usefulness of other equipment. Therefore, again the spy only has a choice between 6-7 out of the 8 gadgets. Yet I do find myself wishing for an extra gadget slot as spy much more than I do as merc because I do actually use snares.
Now, if PS does what it aims to do and rebalances the equipment so that everything is equally useful given the right situation, you are going to run into a serious crunch when it comes to equipment. "Expanding" the slots to still wouldn't allow the teams to take as many gadgets, percentage wise, as in PT. To me, it makes little sense why one would add two gadgets per team to the game, but not expand the amount of items the sides could take.
Third, some balancing:
There are some equipment combinations, particularly on the spy side, which could be used with a fifth slot, but currently leave the spy too handicapped. One example is snares + camo. With only two slots left, you now have to choose among a wide array of equipment that is just "too good" to let go. Chaff disables like every defense in the game. Cams give you another way to KO mercs. But if you take those two, you are left without a way to escape when you're in a pinch via smoke and chaff, and you're left without any sort of recon. You're simply sacrificing way too much to take an equipment combination that doesn't compensate for it. The result is that almost everyone takes a similar loadout of smoke or flash, cams, chaff, and hb sensor.
On the merc side, let's assume that the tazer is useful again. What are you going to give up for it? You already have the bullcharge for close up spies. Mines? No, those are too good. Frags? Ditto. Backpack? Ok, one merc can afford to give that up, but not both. Mask? Ha! Camnet? Depends on the map. Basically, everything that is common now is just way too integral to give up, so no matter how much you buff tazer/flares, the mercs aren't going to change their loadout that much.
In summary: increasing the loadout capacity would increase the variety in the game. You can easily balance stuff out via tweaking the gadgets themselves and the maps after the fact.
The argument for a set slot:
I was in support of this idea for camnet, but now that I think about it, it makes more sense with mask. The reason is, I don't think that either side should have to play a guessing game to hard-counter the other side's equipment when you are locked into your choice for the duration of the match. Not that there's much of a guess since 99.9999999repeated% of players take sticky cams, so the mask isn't really a risk, but in concept it's not good to have that "guessing game" mechanic with A counters B counters C. If we give mask to mercs, then the question becomes what to give to spies? I would think that camo makes the most sense, since it fits in with the whole stealthy theme of it.
IF the "gimme gadget" were in place, then I would say to leave the selectable slots at 4/7. If not, and I am by no means a staunch supporter of the "gimme gadget," then I would fully support expanding the loadout to 5 items.
I think that's a pretty sufficient explanation, don't you? At least, it's much better than your "I don't want to change it because this is the way it was in CT" argument.
All of your argument makes perfect sense. Its not that I was "I don't want to change it because this is the way it was in CT." In fact I'm more than for changes. Thats what PS is about regardless. I just think its unnecessary. DO YOU NEED 5 GADGETS? Will this make you the l33t3st out there? Maybe have it as an alternate. We can call that more chaos mode.
You don't need to have any gadgets (see: Double Agent). If you want to expand the depth of the game, you should add another gadget choice.
I also don't see how more gadgets would add more chaos. If triple nades + 2 more gadgets becomes imba, then you can nerf triple nading.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 29, 2008, 01:49:05 PM
You don't need to have any gadgets (see: Double Agent). If you want to expand the depth of the game, you should add another gadget choice.
I also don't see how more gadgets would add more chaos. If triple nades + 2 more gadgets becomes imba, then you can nerf triple nading.
And none of that can happen if you don't add new gadgets. So anyone that supports the 5th gadget slot but not new ideas is out of their mind.
And spekkio, what if there are new grenades added? A 4th slot would lead to quadruple nading. That's bad mmkay? lol But I guess it depends on the type of grenade.
Adding another slot is something to do after extensive playtesting.
A minor consideration: If the mod would ever become available for PS3, a fifth slot would be more need a new interface. (Selecting gadgets is done with R2 and then pressing the triangle, square, circle or cross. Adding a fifth slot to one of the shoulder buttons after pressing R2 wouldn't be very elegant IMHO.)
Quote from: frvge on January 29, 2008, 03:34:26 AM
I have gadgets at F1-F4. And putting my finger from F4 to F5 sucks.
on the topic of F5 can we please not make it the chat key, or make it changeable at least.
i like hitting enter to bring up allies chat and shift + enter for all chat
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 29, 2008, 03:52:09 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on January 29, 2008, 01:49:05 PM
You don't need to have any gadgets (see: Double Agent). If you want to expand the depth of the game, you should add another gadget choice.
I also don't see how more gadgets would add more chaos. If triple nades + 2 more gadgets becomes imba, then you can nerf triple nading.
And none of that can happen if you don't add new gadgets. So anyone that supports the 5th gadget slot but not new ideas is out of their mind.
And spekkio, what if there are new grenades added? A 4th slot would lead to quadruple nading. That's bad mmkay? lol But I guess it depends on the type of grenade.
Wtf are you talking about?
Let's back up: why do you HAVE to add a new gadget to expand the number of slots available? Ubi already added gadgets from PT --> CT without expanding slots at all (which I argue makes little sense).
Secondly, what difference does it make whether you have 4 or 5 slots when it comes to "quad nading?"
Thirdly, I think I put together a pretty logical and thoughtful post on the previous page, which is certainly more than you and Westfall have produced to counter. So I don't appreciate you telling me that I'm out of my mind.
QuoteA minor consideration: If the mod would ever become available for PS3, a fifth slot would be more need a new interface. (Selecting gadgets is done with R2 and then pressing the triangle, square, circle or cross. Adding a fifth slot to one of the shoulder buttons after pressing R2 wouldn't be very elegant IMHO.)
The mod is being made for the PC though. If it ever comes to being made for a console, then adapt the controls accordingly. There is no reason to stop something from happening in a PC mod because it might not work on a console controller 5 years down the line.
QuoteAdding another slot is something to do after extensive playtesting.
I would say that you should do this before you get too deep into development, or else you'll have to go back and build the game from the ground up. Like I said, if you have in mind that you're going to give each team 5 slots, you can tweak the equipment and maps accordingly. It's much harder to go back and redo those same equipment items and maps after they were already extensively tweaked and done for a 4-slot system.
Sorry, I didn't make my post very clear. A misunderstanding is all that was.
1) Like you said, there is a percentage of gadgets you take. Example, in CT you take only 4 of the amount of gadgets. That means you can take 50% of the possible gadgets. If you add another slot you can take more than half. 5/8. To keep that 1/2 ratio of possible gadgets by adding a fifth slot you need to add 2 more gadgets. 5/10. Letting spies take more than half of the gadgets imo is kind of stupid. You have to pick your gadgets wisely. Letting spies even take half of the possible gadgets is pretty generous imo. By adding a slot and keeping the same amount of gadgets you drastically increase how it easy it is to select gadgets and you remove a lot of strategy from it. That's a downside to picking gadgets, you HAVE to choose wisely. With 5 it would make it so you don't have to be so wise while selecting them if no new gadgets are added.
2) I'm willing to bet you that with four slots, no one is going to take ALL grenades if a new grenade is added. You sacrifice a lot by doing that. You give up a recon gadget. With four slots quad nading would be a lot less frequent. With 5 slots they still have room for a recon gadget and 4 nades. That would make it pretty common wouldn't it? Of course, if no grenade is added to the spies arsenal then this wouldn't even matter. I was just throwing this into the conversation.
I didn't explain it well enough. And yes, you made some good points. But that is just your opinion, and can be countered by ours.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 29, 2008, 07:38:10 PM
Thirdly, I think I put together a pretty logical and thoughtful post on the previous page, which is certainly more than you and Westfall have produced to counter.
Logical and quite obvious. Your argument is everything everyone already knew. The point of a fifth slot...well, there isn't one because it's not necessary. There is no counter argument to your "GLORIOUS" post. Its idiotic to add another slot. No need to give the merc and spy ONE MORE GADGET for them to work with. Merc was overpowered already. Awesome if he gets gasmask (as your set slot) Backpack, camnet, nades, mines (imagine how many people will think you hack now....more than double). Thats all you would need to stop any spy team. It would actually get boring. As for spies....if they get their camo slot, then add 2 nades, hb sensor, and cams. I'll put money on it the merc kicks your ass around the map.
If anything, DA had a good idea in cutting back the gadgets we can use. 1 gadget was retarded. 2/3 would be just fine in terms of balance. 4 seems to be a standard. 5 should be unlockable for a DM server or some shit because it would be stupid AND boring. Absolutely no need for a 5th slot, unless you want to make the game easier for mercs.
Like I said in my previous post, make the 5th slot an alternate for rooms (host can adjust) as opposed to a set part of the game. NO ONE PLAYING THIS GAME IS GOING TO NEED ANOTHER SLOT. You should know this most of all Spek. I mean really. Do you need another slot? Using teamwork practically grants a 5th slot. (i.e. mercs: 1 has bp 1 has camnet ; spies: 1 has bullets 1 has sound device) The use of teamwork makes the idea of a 5th slot obsolete.
Westfall your arguments against a 5th slot are based off of the less than stealthy nature of PT and CT. personally I'm undecided on the viability of a 5th slot but taking into account camo that works, maps that are more stealth friendly, MT that doesn't work as NV and many other differences that will surface, I can't say I agree with your reasoning.
QuoteWestfall your arguments against a 5th slot are based off of the less than stealthy nature of PT and CT. personally I'm undecided on the viability of a 5th slot but taking into account camo that works, maps that are more stealth friendly, MT that doesn't work as NV and many other differences that will surface, I can't say I agree with your reasoning.
Exactly.
QuoteThe point of a fifth slot...well, there isn't one because it's not necessary. There is no counter argument to your "GLORIOUS" post.
Something doesn't need to be necessary to have a point. The point is to expand gameplay options to the player as the current selection of gadgets become more balanced and viable.
Again, the 4/8 slot system only works and doesn't feel cramped because two gadgets per team are essentially useless.
I never said that my post was glorious. You still haven't provided anything to back yourself up other than the reasoning that "this is the way it is in CT, so it shouldn't change."
QuoteDo you need another slot? Using teamwork practically grants a 5th slot. (i.e. mercs: 1 has bp 1 has camnet ; spies: 1 has bullets 1 has sound device) The use of teamwork makes the idea of a 5th slot obsolete.
Okay, that's CT. Now let's move onto PS where the tazer is actually viable and flares are made useful or replaced by something that is. What do you give up for it?
As far as spies, taking a loadout that requires your teammate to be complete pretty much mandates that you A) have a set teammate and B) stick together with him. There are some people who don't have that. Making the game more friendly to people who just want to "pick up and play" so that we have more than 10 players online at 8pm EST is as close to a "necessary" reason for expanding the slots as you're going to get.
Quote1) Like you said, there is a percentage of gadgets you take. Example, in CT you take only 4 of the amount of gadgets. That means you can take 50% of the possible gadgets. If you add another slot you can take more than half. 5/8. To keep that 1/2 ratio of possible gadgets by adding a fifth slot you need to add 2 more gadgets. 5/10. Letting spies take more than half of the gadgets imo is kind of stupid. You have to pick your gadgets wisely. Letting spies even take half of the possible gadgets is pretty generous imo. By adding a slot and keeping the same amount of gadgets you drastically increase how it easy it is to select gadgets and you remove a lot of strategy from it. That's a downside to picking gadgets, you HAVE to choose wisely. With 5 it would make it so you don't have to be so wise while selecting them if no new gadgets are added.
You just glazed over (or ignored) one very important detail: PT allowed you to take 66% of the amount of gadgets. CT only lets you take 50%. If you were to expand the slot by 1, you would still not be able to take the same % of gadgets as you could in PT.
And you most certainly would have to still choose wisely. It just offers the player a wider variety of how they would choose to approach the game.
Quote2) I'm willing to bet you that with four slots, no one is going to take ALL grenades if a new grenade is added.
You'd be wrong because someone is going to take all grenades just to try it out. Whether it remains viable or not is another story.
Still, like I said before, the fix to that, if it's even imbalanced, is easy: remove the insta-reload mechanic when you switch to shoot different grenades, which essentially removes triple (or quad) grenading from the game. The PS developers might need to do that with triple nading anyway, even if only 4 slots are available. You and I just don't know how the game is going to play out in that regard, but making such a tweak is relatively simple in comparison to a game design change.
QuoteBut that is just your opinion, and can be countered by ours.
No, you don't counter an opinion with another opinion. That's retardation incarnate, and it goes nowhere. You counter the foundation of one's opinion with your own facts and reasoning.
Well in coding perspectives if the gadgets are an array or hashtable of some sort it would be very easy to add a 5th slot.
also i would like to hear at least 1 comment on this:
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 29, 2008, 06:33:45 PM
Quote from: frvge on January 29, 2008, 03:34:26 AM
I have gadgets at F1-F4. And putting my finger from F4 to F5 sucks.
on the topic of F5 can we please not make it the chat key, or make it changeable at least.
i like hitting enter to bring up allies chat and shift + enter for all chat
I thought it was established that pretty much every key in the game will be able to be re-mapped to your liking.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 29, 2008, 11:10:06 PM
Quote1) Like you said, there is a percentage of gadgets you take. Example, in CT you take only 4 of the amount of gadgets. That means you can take 50% of the possible gadgets. If you add another slot you can take more than half. 5/8. To keep that 1/2 ratio of possible gadgets by adding a fifth slot you need to add 2 more gadgets. 5/10. Letting spies take more than half of the gadgets imo is kind of stupid. You have to pick your gadgets wisely. Letting spies even take half of the possible gadgets is pretty generous imo. By adding a slot and keeping the same amount of gadgets you drastically increase how it easy it is to select gadgets and you remove a lot of strategy from it. That's a downside to picking gadgets, you HAVE to choose wisely. With 5 it would make it so you don't have to be so wise while selecting them if no new gadgets are added.
You just glazed over (or ignored) one very important detail: PT allowed you to take 66% of the amount of gadgets. CT only lets you take 50%. If you were to expand the slot by 1, you would still not be able to take the same % of gadgets as you could in PT.
I ignored PT because the gadget choosing was flawed imo. If the game lets you take most of the gadgets you hardly have to think about what gadgets you take. That is my logical opinion. Just like your logical opinion on the page before this. Just because it is logical it doesn't make it fact, it's still YOUR opinion. Same with me.
And you most certainly would have to still choose wisely. It just offers the player a wider variety of how they would choose to approach the game.
No it doesn't. It gives them too much. Think of a merc with gasmask, frags, mines, backpack, and a camnet or highly boosted tazer! Way op. Giving more gadgets to choose from would give the player a bigger variety of how he approaches the game. Giving the player more slots would just overpower mercs and GREATLY decrease the amount of thinking you have to do to come up with your loadout. Here is a scenario:
Spy is choosing between taking 2 nades and 2 recon gadgets or 3 nades and 1 recon gadgets. Sometimes, that can be a tough choice depending on map and the opposing team's playstyle. With 5 gadgets the spy can just go: "hey awesome! I can take almost everything!" So, he takes smoke, chaff, flash, stickies, and hearbeat sensor. This would not be good for gameplay. The point of gadget choosing is make to CHOICES. Choices will be freakin easy as hell with 5 slots. Instead of thinking of whether or not you should sacrifice a slot to get something in place of something else, you can take both. Why not? No sacrifice before, like CT and sort of PT had. DA just went overboard with limiting the gadget choices, they tried to bring more strategy into it but they really buried a lot of it. 4 slots is just right, 5 is pushing it.
Quote2) I'm willing to bet you that with four slots, no one is going to take ALL grenades if a new grenade is added.
You'd be wrong because someone is going to take all grenades just to try it out. Whether it remains viable or not is another story.
Of course they would try it out. If it's viable or not is NOT another story, it IS the story. No one would keep it because they would sacrifice too much by doing that.
Still, like I said before, the fix to that, if it's even imbalanced, is easy: remove the insta-reload mechanic when you switch to shoot different grenades, which essentially removes triple (or quad) grenading from the game. The PS developers might need to do that with triple nading anyway, even if only 4 slots are available. You and I just don't know how the game is going to play out in that regard, but making such a tweak is relatively simple in comparison to a game design change.
This doesn't have much to do with what we are talking about.
QuoteBut that is just your opinion, and can be countered by ours.
No, you don't counter an opinion with another opinion. That's retardation incarnate, and it goes nowhere. You counter the foundation of one's opinion with your own facts and reasoning.
That is absolutely true. I meant to say something like that and left out key words :D
Quote from: Spekkio on January 29, 2008, 11:10:06 PM
QuoteWestfall your arguments against a 5th slot are based off of the less than stealthy nature of PT and CT. personally I'm undecided on the viability of a 5th slot but taking into account camo that works, maps that are more stealth friendly, MT that doesn't work as NV and many other differences that will surface, I can't say I agree with your reasoning.
Exactly.
QuoteThe point of a fifth slot...well, there isn't one because it's not necessary. There is no counter argument to your "GLORIOUS" post.
Something doesn't need to be necessary to have a point. The point is to expand gameplay options to the player as the current selection of gadgets become more balanced and viable.
Again, the 4/8 slot system only works and doesn't feel cramped because two gadgets per team are essentially useless.
I never said that my post was glorious. You still haven't provided anything to back yourself up other than the reasoning that "this is the way it is in CT, so it shouldn't change." Is not the case at all in terms of my attitude about it. You just keep saying it trying to justify that that's my view...when I am more than for change with PS.
QuoteDo you need another slot? Using teamwork practically grants a 5th slot. (i.e. mercs: 1 has bp 1 has camnet ; spies: 1 has bullets 1 has sound device) The use of teamwork makes the idea of a 5th slot obsolete.
Okay, that's CT. Now let's move onto PS where the tazer is actually viable and flares are made useful or replaced by something that is. What do you give up for it?
As far as spies, taking a loadout that requires your teammate to be complete pretty much mandates that you A) have a set teammate and B) stick together with him. There are some people who don't have that. Making the game more friendly to people who just want to "pick up and play" so that we have more than 10 players online at 8pm EST is as close to a "necessary" reason for expanding the slots as you're going to get.you're right. Because adding a 5th gadget would make me practically jump platforms to play PS. A gadget slot isn't what the game is about. You have a teammate regardless. A 5th gadget slot doesnt save the solo spy.
Quote1) Like you said, there is a percentage of gadgets you take. Example, in CT you take only 4 of the amount of gadgets. That means you can take 50% of the possible gadgets. If you add another slot you can take more than half. 5/8. To keep that 1/2 ratio of possible gadgets by adding a fifth slot you need to add 2 more gadgets. 5/10. Letting spies take more than half of the gadgets imo is kind of stupid. You have to pick your gadgets wisely. Letting spies even take half of the possible gadgets is pretty generous imo. By adding a slot and keeping the same amount of gadgets you drastically increase how it easy it is to select gadgets and you remove a lot of strategy from it. That's a downside to picking gadgets, you HAVE to choose wisely. With 5 it would make it so you don't have to be so wise while selecting them if no new gadgets are added.
You just glazed over (or ignored) one very important detail: PT allowed you to take 66% of the amount of gadgets. CT only lets you take 50%. If you were to expand the slot by 1, you would still not be able to take the same % of gadgets as you could in PT.
And you most certainly would have to still choose wisely. It just offers the player a wider variety of how they would choose to approach the game.
Quote2) I'm willing to bet you that with four slots, no one is going to take ALL grenades if a new grenade is added.
You'd be wrong because someone is going to take all grenades just to try it out. Whether it remains viable or not is another story.
Still, like I said before, the fix to that, if it's even imbalanced, is easy: remove the insta-reload mechanic when you switch to shoot different grenades, which essentially removes triple (or quad) grenading from the game. The PS developers might need to do that with triple nading anyway, even if only 4 slots are available. You and I just don't know how the game is going to play out in that regard, but making such a tweak is relatively simple in comparison to a game design change.
QuoteBut that is just your opinion, and can be countered by ours.
No, you don't counter an opinion with another opinion. That's retardation incarnate, and it goes nowhere. You counter the foundation of one's opinion with your own facts and reasoning.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 29, 2008, 07:38:10 PM
QuoteAdding another slot is something to do after extensive playtesting.
I would say that you should do this before you get too deep into development, or else you'll have to go back and build the game from the ground up.
I would say that all we need to do is make sure that the code is written in a way that we don't need to rebuild the game in order to change the amount of slots or the amount of gadgets for that matter. PS has the intention to improve the game (so we definitely need to make sure that our code is constructed in a way that enables us to do this), but the first priority is to make the game.
for balance reasons mask and camo should be permanent gadgets. i'd really go for 1 permanent and 4 open slots. it makes perfect sense with the background of the counter gadget guessing game and the increasing amount of viable gadgets. your choice before the game even starts shouldn't limit your choices that much ingame. i also don't think that it would favor the mercs because without uba-nv-mt and eax superhearing they'll have a hard time against a stealth team with too few map control gadgets.
You guys seem to forget that this is still UT3 in the background. I could even make devcheats to get ALL gadgets, bypassing the slot limit.
Oh, and don't worry about rewriting the whole game, we wan't to prevent that as well by makign a good structure at first.
Yay for good coding practices :)
Quote from: Gawain on January 30, 2008, 02:43:45 PM
for balance reasons mask and camo should be permanent gadgets. i'd really go for 1 permanent and 4 open slots. it makes perfect sense with the background of the counter gadget guessing game and the increasing amount of viable gadgets. your choice before the game even starts shouldn't limit your choices that much ingame. i also don't think that it would favor the mercs because without uba-nv-mt and eax superhearing they'll have a hard time against a stealth team with too few map control gadgets.
I still feel that 5 slots is just to much for either side. Even if everything gets fixed, you're giving more to both parties when they need less if anyhing.
^ That's right.
Mask and Camo don't need to be in inherent gadgets. If you don't pick something you need, that's your own damn fault.
I think the amount of gadgets in CT was good - you didn't get everything you needed, but it didn't feel like you had to choose which leg to cut of.
im still on the fence ... i know im going into realisim here, but shouldnt a professional spy have everything he needs? then again he's only one person so i guess he can only carry so much gear and still be stealthy
OT: imagin a spy lugging a dufle bag lol :D
Down the road we may find that some maps are better for certain gadget setups. Quite frankly until some serious testing is done it is completely asinine to agonize over "do we need more?", "do we need extra slots?", "do we need set items?", "do we..." etc....
We don't. We don't need extra gadgets. There is a reason there is a limit in CT. The limit was fine. Don't fix what isn't broken or don't change what doesn't need changin.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on January 30, 2008, 10:34:19 PM
Down the road we may find that some maps are better for certain gadget setups. Quite frankly until some serious testing is done it is completely asinine to agonize over "do we need more?", "do we need extra slots?", "do we need set items?", "do we..." etc....
No comment.
You guys can stop using the word need. We don't even need video games, and therefore PS, in the first place. They are luxuries used for fun and to kill time. Plenty of other things to do in their absence.
You know what me mean. Don't try to twist our words and make it seem like we live off of video games.
the only viable point against a 1+4 slot system you guys brought up was the fact that a little less teamplay is required...
Quote from: Gawain on January 31, 2008, 06:57:02 PM
the only viable point against a 1+4 slot system you guys brought up was the fact that a little less teamplay is required...
That makes it obvious that you pay little attention to posts. More than 4 gadget slots is just too much...for each side. There won't be a balance at all.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 31, 2008, 01:37:22 PM
You guys can stop using the word need. We don't even need video games, and therefore PS, in the first place. They are luxuries used for fun and to kill time. Plenty of other things to do in their absence.
Did you drop this line because you happened to see me post practically the exact same thing on SCLamers? Papa is right, you're just trying to manipulate there.
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 30, 2008, 09:48:18 PM
im still on the fence ... i know im going into realisim here, but shouldnt a professional spy have everything he needs? then again he's only one person so i guess he can only carry so much gear and still be stealthy
OT: imagin a spy lugging a dufle bag lol :D
lol. if you want to be realistic, then the spy would have to carry a duffle bag with his 5 slots of gear...otherwise hes going to be one loud sucker running around with nades clanging together...kind of like jingle bells.
Like how this thread was about sound reticule and somehow got back to the # of gadget slots....lol
I'm not too enthusiastic about five slots since I believe that four slots were more than enough. Nevertheless it's worth a playtest to see what it does to the game. As Lennard wrote...
Quote from: LennardF1989 on January 30, 2008, 03:11:06 PMDon't worry about rewriting the whole game, we want to prevent that as well by making a good structure at first.
After the game is as good as done, I would like to assemble a list with community ideas to improve the game and start to playtest them.
Furthermore, I don't think that realism is a good argument for any design decision. We're not doing a simulation here, so real life should be an inspiration but not nothing more.
Quote from: Spekkio on January 31, 2008, 01:37:22 PM
You guys can stop using the word need. We don't even need video games, and therefore PS, in the first place. They are luxuries used for fun and to kill time. Plenty of other things to do in their absence.
Then why do you guys
need a fifth slot? That seems like a pretty desperate attempt at a comeback imo.
There would be less teamplay for sure. Mercs would be one man wrecking balls with the gadgets we have now and 5 slots of them. There is a point to sacrificing gadgets for other ones. The point is that you don't get that gadget you sacrifice but you get the one you chose instead of it. With 5 slots, meh, what the hell. Why not just take most of the gadgets with you. pfff, lame.
QuoteThen why do you guys need a fifth slot? That seems like a pretty desperate attempt at a comeback imo.
I don't
need any slots. Give me a rocket launcher instead of that castrated P90, and I'll omgwtfpwnz mercs all day long.
I made a pretty extensive post on why a fifth slot would be good 2 pages ago. I suggest you go re-read it and come up with a better counter than "but omfg why do you
need it?"
Quote from: Spekkio on January 31, 2008, 11:38:25 PM
QuoteThen why do you guys need a fifth slot? That seems like a pretty desperate attempt at a comeback imo.
I don't need any slots. Give me a rocket launcher instead of that castrated P90, and I'll omgwtfpwnz mercs all day long.
I made a pretty extensive post on why a fifth slot would be good 2 pages ago. I suggest you go re-read it and come up with a better counter than "but omfg why do you need it?"
Like previously stated....everything you stated is pretty much everything people already knew. This so called "extensive post," while large, didn't justify why a 5th slot is necessary. You says its balanced, but its going to be garbage if theres a 5th slot. YOU FUCKIN KNOW IT. The merc doesn't
need a 5th slot. Because the merc has more important things to think about in his own life than
needing a 5th slot. Same goes for the spy. 5 slots is....read this a little closer....grab those spectacles....5 slots
is over-powering and furthest from balanced, aka too muchYou can keep referring to your post as "extensive" and well-balanced....guess what....it's neither nor. When you find a good and practical use for a 5th slot, then start to jabber about it. Until that time, 5 slots SHOULD BE AN ALTERNATE.....like your mini games. kthxbai
Quote from: Spekkio on January 31, 2008, 11:38:25 PM
QuoteThen why do you guys need a fifth slot? That seems like a pretty desperate attempt at a comeback imo.
I don't need any slots. Give me a rocket launcher instead of that castrated P90, and I'll omgwtfpwnz mercs all day long.
I made a pretty extensive post on why a fifth slot would be good 2 pages ago. I suggest you go re-read it and come up with a better counter than "but omfg why do you need it?"
Dude, you are arguing a dead case. I've been down that road. Don't do it. Maybe it's not a dead case but that was a pretty weak explanation for why it should be in. Rocket launcher is the same thing. It's freaking unnecessary. You may have made a post but that's all it was. A post. It didn't convince me and others that it is needed. All of the post was totally obvious and it hardly states why a fifth slot is needed. That's like me saying grenades are useful, so we need to give mercs 10 nades. Well, maybe not exactly like that but you get my point. They aren't
needed, sorry, i mean there is no point to giving them to mercs.
if you consider spekkio's arguments that weak, why don't you even bother to counter them??
QuoteRocket launcher is the same thing. It's freaking unnecessary.
A rocket launcher for spies isn't a bad idea because it's unnecessary; it's bad because it would completely ruin the gameplay dynamic of stealthy and agile spies vs. slow and deadly mercs. There are a lot of situations in SvM where I think a rocket launcher would be a necessary item. Ever play missile strike?
Five gadgets vs. four doesn't change that dynamic.
Any other bad comparisons you want to make?
QuoteWhen you find a good and practical use for a 5th slot, then start to jabber about it.
Now your posts are getting fucking annoying, and this line shows that you didn't read my post, either.
A practical use for a 5th slot? Try taking camo + snares, two equipment items that tend to compliment each other, and see where it gets you in CT.
QuoteMask and Camo don't need to be in inherent gadgets. If you don't pick something you need, that's your own damn fault.
Well, this is the problem: the mask has become pretty much a "must-have" gadget due to the way cams work. I personally think that when gadgets specifically hard counter each other, it's bad, because you can't swap equipment during the match (and even if you could it'd turn into a clusterfuck of guessing). Therefore, I would say to give hard-counter gadgets unconditionally, so that you know and expect the other team to have it.
If camo were always integrated into the spy equipment, it could be worked to be a hard counter to MT. Then you have EMF> camo > MT > moving without camo > EMF.
An example of good dynamic is that flashbangs are better vs. snipers because they take them out of scope, but they are still useful against people taking the uzi and shotgun. Smoke is better vs. uzi and shotgun because it stops people from chasing you, but it still does conceal you from snipers somewhat.
The mask has no other use except to specifically counter smoke and cams. It's not like it offers some sort of benefit to flashbangs, chaff, or any other equipment the spy is using. But since 99.99999repeated% of people take cams, the mask becomes a must-have.
In essence, taking the mask isn't a "choice." It's a given. If you don't take it, you're going to just get owned by cam spam.
----------------------------
Another thing that could be tried is not necessarily having both sides take the same amount of equipment. You could, for example, have spies select 5 optional gadgets, while the mercs get free mask + 4 selectable. Since mercs tend to win more than spies anyway, doing this could help balance out the game a little more. Both sides get 5 gadgets, but the spies have more combinations available to them.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 01, 2008, 03:15:46 PM
QuoteWhen you find a good and practical use for a 5th slot, then start to jabber about it.
Now your posts are getting fucking annoying, and this line shows that you didn't read my post, either.
A practical use for a 5th slot? Try taking camo + snares, two equipment items that tend to compliment each other, and see where it gets you in CT.
My posts get annoying because they make you think a little more, but then you go right back to believing that 5 slots is the brilliant idea of the year. Maybe YOU sir deserve the gold star. I read your post....have yet to see a practical use and/or necessary reason to have 5 gadgets. I need to see why 5 gadgets is a good thing....all of your arguments have yet to show
me 1 GOOD/LEGITIMATE reason why 5 slots is actually balanced and good for PS.
I've been saying its overpowering, which it is and will be. Camo and sound devices do compliment each other well. Thats 2 gadgets. You want the option of having 3 more with you? Have cams and hb sensor or spy bullet. Thats 4 gadgets. Then you can pick one nade. The idea CT had was that you couldn't take everything you wanted and needed to choose wisely. With 5 gadgets, you get a little bit of everything and the merc gets EVERYTHING.
The last part of your post got me thinking. If you really want a side to get 5 gadgets, only the spy side should get it. Merc side is already powerful enough. Maybe this is the balance we are looking for.
Quote from: Gawain on February 01, 2008, 11:39:09 AM
if you consider spekkio's arguments that weak, why don't you even bother to counter them??
Good thing you're here and giving valuable input. n00b or vet? ;)
Theres nothing to counter. I've told Spekkio his post was a fine argument, but everything we all pretty much know. Its funny, because someone drops some ratios everyone feels that the topic is over.
QuoteMy posts get annoying because they make you think a little more,
Excuse me? Your posts are fucking annoying because they're asinine 1-liners sprinkled with insults. Stuff like:
"5 gadgets would be overpowered. YOU FUCKING KNOW IT!"
Only makes me think that you're a fucking retard, and nothing more. Why the fuck would I make a case for 5 gadgets if I knew it would be imbalanced???
Well, i think Gawain is looking on PS through a CT prisma, from what i noticed...
This gets personal.
I agree that adding 5th gadget would make the game even more unbalanced than it is now. You can still write blocks of letters but it wont change the FACT that, as Westfall said, mercs would have everything they need and the dillema of choosing would be gone.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 01, 2008, 10:02:31 PM
Why the fuck would I make a case for 5 gadgets if I knew it would be imbalanced???
People make mistakes, you know.
Spekkio. Why don't you tell us a reason why it would be good for the gameplay. AND DO NOT refer us back to your post a few pages back. Because it doesn't explain a thing. Just tell us, one reason.
I honestly don't know why you are making a case for this then because it WOULD be unbalanced ffs! Merc basically gets everything he wants! That is unbalanced! Just the fact that it would reduce teamplay A LOT and it would also reduce smart decisions you have to make while choosing gadgets should be enough for you to drop this idiotic suggestion. kthxbai
QuoteExcuse me? Your posts are fucking annoying because they're asinine 1-liners sprinkled with insults. Stuff like:
"5 gadgets would be overpowered. YOU FUCKING KNOW IT!"
Only makes me think that you're a fucking retard, and nothing more. Why the fuck would I make a case for 5 gadgets if I knew it would be imbalanced???
LOL wtf? And what was that Spekkio? An asinine post sprinkled with insults. Fuckin hippocrite.
Nice post neth.
QuoteYou can still write blocks of letters but it wont change the FACT that,
I think that you need to learn the definition of a fact.
Quote from: dictionary.comfact /fækt/
ââ,¬â€œnoun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law. Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law.
The problem is that PS doesn't exist yet. It is not a fact that the game will be horribly imbalanced because of 5 gadgets; it's your reactionary assumption.
QuoteSpekkio. Why don't you tell us a reason why it would be good for the gameplay. AND DO NOT refer us back to your post a few pages back. Because it doesn't explain a thing. Just tell us, one reason.
I don't like to take the time to repeat myself, so I'm going to now quote the parts where I specifically outlined gameplay improvements that could result from 5 gadgets:
QuoteIn summary: increasing the loadout capacity would increase the variety in the game. You can easily balance stuff out via tweaking the gadgets themselves and the maps after the fact.
So we have reason 1: variety.
As I said before: try taking camo + snares and winning with them. "Oh but just take camz + HB LOL!" No, it doesn't work like that because now you're stuck in a one-dimensional role. Which means anytime your partner is in position to hack and you have to guard him, you're both fucked. So now the loadout is grenade/grenade/cams/hb 95% of the time because of that.
QuoteOkay, that's CT. Now let's move onto PS where the tazer is actually viable and flares are made useful or replaced by something that is. What do you give up for it?
Reason 2: the current system only works because two gadgets per team are essentially useless. With a choice of 5 among 8 fully useful gadgets, you would still have to carefully choose your equipment to suit your playstyle.
QuoteFirst, some math:
In PT, you could take 4/6 gadgets = 2/3
In CT, you can take 4/8 gadgets = 1/2.
If you expand gadgets to 5/8, 1/2 < 5/8 < 2/3. So you still get to select a lower % of equipment items than in PT even with being able to pick 5 gadgets.
We have reason 3: PT was just as balanced as CT, yet we could take a higher percentage of available equipment. Therefore, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that the developers of PS could up the percentage of gadgets one could take and still produce a balanced game.
QuoteAs far as spies, taking a loadout that requires your teammate to be complete pretty much mandates that you A) have a set teammate and B) stick together with him. There are some people who don't have that. Making the game more friendly to people who just want to "pick up and play" so that we have more than 10 players online at 8pm EST is as close to a "necessary" reason for expanding the slots as you're going to get.
Reason 4: more attractive to casual gamers. You can go on and on about how teamwork should be necessary blah blah. Fact is, if someone can't just login and hop into a game and still enjoy yourself, then he's going to go play another game. It's even frustrating for me, as a vet/pro/noob/whatever, to try and play solo in CT right now. I'm not saying that teamwork ought to be removed, but I am saying that requiring too much teamwork is a bad thing.
Tell me: why is it a good thing that it's impossible to even get into Station when your teammate is dead? Why is it a good thing that it's impossible to do anything on Aqua by yourself if Greek isn't complete because 3/6 objectives are locked off?
So there you go: I've provided 4 reasons (and probably some more in the past 3 pages) why this idea at least merits testing. All you and Westfall have done is ignore them and spit nonsense.
Finally, some dictionary lessons for you:
QuoteasÃ,·iÃ,·nine /ˈæsÉâ,,¢Ã‹Å'naɪn/
ââ,¬â€œadjective
1. foolish, unintelligent, or silly; stupid: It is surprising that supposedly intelligent people can make such asinine statements.
2. of or like an ass: asinine obstinacy; asinine features.
My post wasn't stupid. It was expressing my frustration with Westfall's stupidity.
You should also learn to spell hypocrite, in addition to learning what it means:
QuotehypÃ,·oÃ,·crite /ˈhɪpÉâ,,¢krɪt/
ââ,¬â€œnoun
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.
Exactly what moral beliefs am I contradicting with the post you quoted?
1. The current game of CT would be horribly unbalanced by giving each team 5 gadgets. And since it will be a CLONE OF CT with some minor changes and additions, the same principle applies. ESPECIALLY if the gadgets are all useful in their own right in PS.
2. I spelled hypocrite wrong because there is a box of hungry hungry hippos right next to my desk. My cousin left it here, he's 4, and it caught my eye and I spelled it that way. lol Funny mistake on my part. Maybe hippocrite is more of an insult anyways lol. :D
3. I know what hypocrite means. You criticized westfall for giving asinine one liners sprinkled with insults when you basically did the SAME EXACT THING spekkio. Therefore, making YOU a hypocrite.
4. You bring the comparison of balance between CT and PT into the conversation when it has nothing to do with my argument. My argument was the difficulty to choose gadgets. It was essentially much easier to choose a loadout in PT than in CT because of the fact that you could take the majority of the gadgets. How you bring balance into the conversation is moronic and you miss my point.
5. Variety. You add variety by adding gadgets. Not by letting you take more of the existing ones.
6.
QuoteReason 4: more attractive to casual gamers. You can go on and on about how teamwork should be necessary blah blah. Fact is, if someone can't just login and hop into a game and still enjoy yourself, then he's going to go play another game.
are you serious? You think that it's better to remove elements of teamplay so you can get more players in the community.
Sacrificing key elements of the game to make it more attractive to more players IS one thing that made DA suck so horribly! That's unbelievable. And do you really think that people are going to go "oh, you can carry 5 gadgets at once and not just 4?! Awesome! I want this game!" Truth is, they probably won't.
7.
QuoteMy post wasn't stupid
Nope, not really. But it was hypocritical.
Quoteare you serious? You think that it's better to remove elements of teamplay so you can get more players in the community. Sacrificing key elements of the game to make it more attractive to more players IS one thing that made DA suck so horribly! That's unbelievable. And do you really think that people are going to go "oh, you can carry 5 gadgets at once and not just 4?! Awesome! I want this game!" Truth is, they probably won't.
Five gadgets alone probably won't change anyone's mind. However, more gadgets in conjunction with other changes might. Teamwork is good, but having any chance of winning at spy in CT relies far too much on having a set teammate and a microphone to attract a wide player base. Like I mentioned before, there are quite a few maps and situations where you simply have absolutely no chance of victory once your partner dies off. Aside from that, requiring people to spend hundreds of hours in a game with the same teammate in order to be competitive is just stupid.
The key is to have teamplay enhance effectiveness, and not to be a requirement for effectiveness.
Also, you may know the definition of hypocrite, but it's obvious that you don't understand it (big surprise there). Even if my post were asinine and insulting (which it wasn't), I still wouldn't be a hypocrite and the post would not be "hypocritical." For me to be a hypocrite, I must first say something like "I believe that making asinine and insulting posts is morally detestable" (definition 1) or "I never make asinine and insulting posts" (definition 2). I said, or implied, no such thing.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 02, 2008, 02:29:31 AM
Five gadgets alone probably won't change anyone's mind.
Right.
However, more gadgets in conjunction with other changes might.
Yeah, new gadgets, not more of the ones we already have. The thing that attracted me to the series was mainly the fact that you could be stealthy and use shadows to sneak around your opponent. The other thing was how deep the MP seemed to be. It looked like a nice break from all the arcadish shooters which aren't so bad, but they lack something. TEAMWORK.
Teamwork is good, but having any chance of winning at spy in CT relies far too much on having a set teammate and a microphone to attract a wide player base.
When a merc has 5 gadgets, what good is 5 gadgets going to do for you? You'll hardly ever win as spy going against a merc with frags, gasmask, mines, backpack, and a tazer/camnet. That is an amazing combination that was restricted in CT thanks to the balanced amount of gadgets you could carry.
Like I mentioned before, there are quite a few maps and situations where you simply have absolutely no chance of victory once your partner dies off. Aside from that, requiring people to spend hundreds of hours in a game with the same teammate in order to be competitive is just stupid.
Yeah. Again. This game needs to require teamwork. If a 2 mercs or even just 1 merc has 5 gadgets he'll easily be able to detect you and kill you. Even with a teammate you'll probably be screwed most of the time.
The key is to have teamplay enhance effectiveness, and not to be a requirement for effectiveness.
Again, you'll have little effectiveness with mercs using 10 gadgets that will all be useful in their own rights.
Also, you may know the definition of hypocrite, but it's obvious that you don't understand it (big surprise there). Even if my post were asinine and insulting (which it wasn't), I still wouldn't be a hypocrite and the post would not be "hypocritical." For me to be a hypocrite, I must first say something like "I believe that making asinine and insulting posts is morally detestable" (definition 1) or "I never make asinine and insulting posts" (definition 2). I said, or implied, no such thing.
You said plenty of things that attempted to insult Westfall. Then you lashed at him for attempting to insult you. That seems hypocritical to me.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 02, 2008, 01:12:05 AM
reason 1: variety.
As I said before: try taking camo + snares and winning with them. "Oh but just take camz + HB LOL!" No, it doesn't work like that because now you're stuck in a one-dimensional role. Which means anytime your partner is in position to hack and you have to guard him, you're both fucked. So now the loadout is grenade/grenade/cams/hb 95% of the time because of that.
Variety? What variety is there in choosing 5/8 gadgets. Its more like, take whatever the hell you want. There would be a variety to choose from if you only had to select 3 gadgets. That would make the option of selection more critical compared to 5 gadgets. So, reason no. 1 makes sense....more gadgets/better gadgets....and you get to choose 5? That doesn't sound balanced at all. Moving on....
QuoteOkay, that's CT. Now let's move onto PS where the tazer is actually viable and flares are made useful or replaced by something that is. What do you give up for it?
QuoteReason 2: the current system only works because two gadgets per team are essentially useless. With a choice of 5 among 8 fully useful gadgets, you would still have to carefully choose your equipment to suit your playstyle.
So, 10 gadgets/team sounds balanced. Granted you both couldn't even select 5 different gadgets if there are only 8. You would both have to take something similar and then figure out which of you can have certain eq. Whereas 4 gadgets allows no mixing (optional of course) and both sides could actually take 1 of each gadget (bad idea though). 3 gadgets makes things a little more interesting because now you have to give up some things and choose wisely. If I get to pick 5 gadgets, I won't choose wisely. No one will. You get 5 gadgets....thats a SHITLOAD of gadgets. Again proving an imbalance.
QuoteFirst, some math:
In PT, you could take 4/6 gadgets = 2/3
In CT, you can take 4/8 gadgets = 1/2.
If you expand gadgets to 5/8, 1/2 < 5/8 < 2/3. So you still get to select a lower % of equipment items than in PT even with being able to pick 5 gadgets.
QuoteWe have reason 3: PT was just as balanced as CT, yet we could take a higher percentage of available equipment. Therefore, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that the developers of PS could up the percentage of gadgets one could take and still produce a balanced game.
But like its been said, 2 of the gadgets for merc side were practically not used (flares + tazer) and you spared some nades as a spy(either hb or bullets taken, and you don't use 1/3 nades). Really it only acted like 4/6 gadgets were selectable in CT. 5/8 gadgets with modified uses for certain gadgets doesn't make a balance. It makes them overpowered in a sense, or rather the idea of 5 gadgets over-powering.
QuoteAs far as spies, taking a loadout that requires your teammate to be complete pretty much mandates that you A) have a set teammate and B) stick together with him. There are some people who don't have that. Making the game more friendly to people who just want to "pick up and play" so that we have more than 10 players online at 8pm EST is as close to a "necessary" reason for expanding the slots as you're going to get.
QuoteReason 4: more attractive to casual gamers. You can go on and on about how teamwork should be necessary blah blah. Fact is, if someone can't just login and hop into a game and still enjoy yourself, then he's going to go play another game. It's even frustrating for me, as a vet/pro/noob/whatever, to try and play solo in CT right now. I'm not saying that teamwork ought to be removed, but I am saying that requiring too much teamwork is a bad thing.
It is frustrating to play solo on maps, but it was your choice to hop on alone and not have someone with you yea? Your call in the end. No on said, "You have to play us alone Spekkio because you're teh l33t." This game isn't really the solo type multiplayer. It never has been. You can't just hop into a game and expect to be happy playing with a n00b. You chose it though. This is where different game modes would be interesting. It doesn't justify upping the gadgets you should take. Because you have a 5th slot will make you win solo? Not if the other team has a 5th slot...each. You know you can still practically handle some teams by yourself. You work solo when you're working with your team sometimes too, because splitting up is not always a bad thing...only in scary movies.
QuoteTell me: why is it a good thing that it's impossible to even get into Station when your teammate is dead? Why is it a good thing that it's impossible to do anything on Aqua by yourself if Greek isn't complete because 3/6 objectives are locked off?
Well, if you're mate died 5 times on station and you are left without him....thats the end of your round really. If you can't finish aqua because Greek isn't finished....thats the end of your round also. Doesn't justify an additional gadget. Thats just poor map design.
QuoteSo there you go: I've provided 4 reasons (and probably some more in the past 3 pages) why this idea at least merits testing. All you and Westfall have done is ignore them and spit nonsense.
Only one of your reasons was remotely good on the topic of 5 gadgets: variety. Even then its still an imbalance. Why don't you reassess and try again. The last thing I would ever need from you are dictionary lessons. I know those were pointed towards papa, but just saying. Also, there isn't a real need to insult someone because they misspelled a word. Anyone can do that. Doesn't make you a big deal or anything.
You were being hypocritical (as says your brilliantly found definition) and your voicing about an additional 5th gadget has been just as equal, if not more, asinine. Because you posted something long does not make you god. People here respect what you have to say because you've played for quite some time. Shit, you were playing long before Noise and I were. While you have experience, everyone else here who played/plays CT has just as much experience (if not more). Its hard to justify something when we are talking about balance. I haven't really been spitting nonsense. I've been waiting for you to give your reasons, which clearly aren't as "awesome" as they were supposed to be. If you had actually justified yourself and made a point, you could sway the opinion of many. Unfortunately, there are no rational/balanced reasons you've given.
QuoteFive gadgets alone probably won't change anyone's mind. However, more gadgets in conjunction with other changes might. Teamwork is good, but having any chance of winning at spy in CT relies far too much on having a set teammate and a microphone to attract a wide player base. Like I mentioned before, there are quite a few maps and situations where you simply have absolutely no chance of victory once your partner dies off. Aside from that, requiring people to spend hundreds of hours in a game with the same teammate in order to be competitive is just stupid.
I've played with you and many others as my teammate. Granted things didn't always go according to plan, but the games were fun nonetheless. This type of game has the learning curve where you have to play for a while to understand the mechanics behind your moves/gadgets/map design/teammate. So really, you can play with who you like, but you should choose someone who has played longer and knows the game. This, as goes for all the other SvM games, has a learning curve. You have to be dedicated to the game if you are going to learn anything. Hopping on and hoping to find a good server isn't as reliable as x-firing a buddy and hopping on. This then leads to teamwork with someone who knows the game.
QuoteThe key is to have teamplay enhance effectiveness, and not to be a requirement for effectiveness.
With this type of game, teamplay is the only thing that will really enhance effectiveness. Unless you were to play a "mini game" and act solo. Some people made 1v1 maps for CT (waste imo), but an interesting concept nonetheless. We will see what PS has to offer in those respects. Otherwise, if you choose to play by yourself, the game will treat you as necessary. Likewise if you hop on with a friend.
why would 5 gadgets allow now balance? it's certainly possible to balance it out, you guys have to stop thinking in ct balance.
if 5 gadgets result in spam, it would be an easy solution to simply decrease the amount of each gadget. heck, i even would like to see the number of sticky cams reduced to 3 in ct.
it takes not that much brain to choose between gadgets before the game even starts, it's rather the skill it takes to adapt to various ingame situations with the restricted gadget loadout you have. with 5 slots there will be less variety in gadget loadouts but more variety in gameplay.
teamplay will always be crucial in svm and not having 3 instead of 4 gadgets doesn't make significant difference.
i also can't see why the merc side would gain more advantage from 5 gadgets than the spy side. with fixed sound and mt it'll get way harder for the mercs to compete against stealth. with the jump-against-grab glitch and the push-instead-of-grab bug removed and reliable flashbangs it will also be quite necessary to take the tazer against aggro players. good spies are also way less likely to die without lag charges and insta frags.
Gawain. Just giving one slot for one more gadget is very significant to the gameplay. Especially if there are no new gadgets added to the game. It doesn't take "much brain" to choose the gadgets now. But there still is that element of sacrificing one gadget to get another. With 5 gadgets, that's gone, out the window.
Quotei also can't see why the merc side would gain more advantage from 5 gadgets than the spy side. with fixed sound and mt it'll get way harder for the mercs to compete against stealth. with the jump-against-grab glitch and the push-instead-of-grab bug removed and reliable flashbangs it will also be quite necessary to take the tazer against aggro players. good spies are also way less likely to die without lag charges and insta frags
That's the thing. Mercs won't have to sacrifice ANYTHING to take the tazer with them. A merc with a fixed tazer is going to be pretty good against aggro spies. If that same merc also has frags he is going to be great against aggro spies. If that same merc also has gasmask he's going to be even better against aggro spies. Now here is the catch. Should the merc take mines or camnet? Camnet for searching for spies, or mines for a possible kill or two? The merc doesn't have to decide, he can take all of them. This makes him good at recon and GREAT against aggro. He has VERY little weaknesses, if any, making him overpowered.
Quote from: Gawain on February 02, 2008, 05:45:22 PM
why would 5 gadgets allow now balance? it's certainly possible to balance it out, you guys have to stop thinking in ct balance.
if 5 gadgets result in spam, it would be an easy solution to simply decrease the amount of each gadget. heck, i even would like to see the number of sticky cams reduced to 3 in ct.
it takes not that much brain to choose between gadgets before the game even starts, it's rather the skill it takes to adapt to various ingame situations with the restricted gadget loadout you have. with 5 slots there will be less variety in gadget loadouts but more variety in gameplay.
teamplay will always be crucial in svm and not having 3 instead of 4 gadgets doesn't make significant difference.
I'm not thinking CT balance....I'm thinking PS balance. The solution for 5 gadgets is decreasing the amount of use with that gadget. Thats possibly the best point to make for having the 5th slot. At the same time if you're saying 3 r 4 gadgets doesn't make a significant difference, then why would 5? Because you have more? The whole idea of variety goes out the window still. Giving more to the merc is not a good idea.
Quotei also can't see why the merc side would gain more advantage from 5 gadgets than the spy side. with fixed sound and mt it'll get way harder for the mercs to compete against stealth. with the jump-against-grab glitch and the push-instead-of-grab bug removed and reliable flashbangs it will also be quite necessary to take the tazer against aggro players. good spies are also way less likely to die without lag charges and insta frags.
Merc charge against spy while hacking-not knocking him down and merc charge against spy while grabbing and climbing a box-still not knocking him down (both glitches) will be taken out as well (they better). You just helped prove the point too. If mercs get 5 slots they can now add tazer because its workable yea? Any close combat will be easier than it already was.
Also, variety isn't added by giving more of the same gadgets. Hence the word "same". For variety you need new gadgets. So that it's harder to predict what is going to happen. With all the same stuff you won't be surprised by seeing anything happen. Say you put 4 cakes on a table. Then, you put 5 cakes on the table and they are all the same kind of cake. There's no variety. You need to add different kinds of cakes to have more variety. If you get what I mean.
it's actually quite basic math: with one more gadget/player there are more possibilities ingame for the player.
of course, creating totally new gadgets would also increase variety but too much gadget possibilities are bad for the gameplay because you have to have something to calculate on. adjusting the balance of the existing gadgets and replacing flares with something more useful like boosted phosphorous nades will increase the variety enormously anyways.
Umm, no it won't. You get more of the same gadgets, same =/= variety
The only way I'll ever accept that this idea will be good for gameplay is if there are more gadgets, like 2-3 more balanced gadgets per team, and you can only carry 3 of them. It would still have the teamplay elements because of the reduced amount of gadgets. But even if all that happens, I'm still kind of iffy on giving any team 5 gadgets to work with.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 03, 2008, 03:47:59 AM
Umm, no it won't. You get more of the same gadgets, same =/= variety
The only way I'll ever accept that this idea will be good for gameplay is if there are more gadgets, like 2-3 more balanced gadgets per team, and you can only carry 3 of them. It would still have the teamplay elements because of the reduced amount of gadgets. But even if all that happens, I'm still kind of iffy on giving any team 5 gadgets to work with.
Nice idea. Gaiwan is right on adding an amount of new gadgets. Replace flares with something. Fix camo. Give 5 gadget slots. Reduce amount of gadget(s). The variety will adjust with new tazzer, new flare, and fixed camo. Maybe add a new gadget (drone/new spy gadget).
Another way: 4 gadgets, replace flares, fixed camo, add new gadget (spy & merc), and reduce amount of gadget(s). Variety changes due to new gadget plus fixed tazer and flares for merc.
5 gadgets still seems quite overpowering. Even with certain fixes to amount of gadget(s). With four gadget slots, it seems to balance due to adjustment of amount per spy & spy team and merc & merc team. They're lower. This is especially detrimental to the power of the merc. Adjustments are obviously TBA, but can be discussed in another section. The spy maybe doesn't need any adjustment in amount, except for cams. Just babbling....
papa, you don't get it: more gadgets available ingame => more possibilities for the player => more variety ingame (but a little less variety in gadget loadouts of course).
btw, 4/8 slots result in 70 different loadouts, and 5/8 in 56 which is only 20% less. but this is grey theory and i foresee that the amount of competitive loadouts will even increase (<=> spekkio's camo+snares example).
the only problem i see with 5 gadgets slots is spam which can easily be prevented by adjusting the amount of each gadget.
on the smoke/cam balance: i suggest reducing the number of cams to 3, reducing the slow down effect of smoke slightely or removing the knock out ability of smoke at all.
Westfall, that's the thing: 5 gadgets could be overpowering, but then you can adjust the gadgets' strengths to compensate.
Ok, so triple nade + HB + cams is OP (and it might be OP with 4 slots, too, mind you). Well, then you can reduce the amount of grenades or cams you can take, and suddenly you're not dealing with 15 grenades + 5 cams + recon anymore. I'd rather that happen than what happens now: 2-3 gadgets simply take a backseat and are never used because other gadgets become way too important.
Wonderful. So you'd like to nerf all of the gadgets so you can have 5 of them?
Quote from: Gawain on February 03, 2008, 02:24:45 PM
papa, you don't get it: more gadgets available ingame => more possibilities for the player => more variety ingame (but a little less variety in gadget loadouts of course).
btw, 4/8 slots result in 70 different loadouts, and 5/8 in 56 which is only 20% less. but this is grey theory and i foresee that the amount of competitive loadouts will even increase (<=> spekkio's camo+snares example).
the only problem i see with 5 gadgets slots is spam which can easily be prevented by adjusting the amount of each gadget.
on the smoke/cam balance: i suggest reducing the number of cams to 3, reducing the slow down effect of smoke slightely or removing the knock out ability of smoke at all.
More variety in game is what you are talking about. Then the next game is the same as that last game. And so is the next game after that. I'm talking about variety in the entire game! Not just in game. Oh, what should I bring this round? Holopod? Pulse nades? Spy Reticule and hallucination nades maybe? OR, maybe next round I can take an entirely different loadout and add more variety. ;) Nope. Instead, with your idea, you get variety with the same shit. And that does not equal variety. With 5 gadgets you can't take an entirely different loadout if you only have 8 gadgets to pick from. Meaning you have to bring something that you brought your last game, making it more predictable.
dude, read my post and think about it before repeating yourself 10 times -.-
Well, I have to post things 10 times because you won't read them or you don't understand them. ;)
read my last post.
No offense, but what is the conclusion of this thread? ???
There is none yet.
Imo spies could have a reticule, but only if it takes 2 slots.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 03, 2008, 06:28:10 PM
Westfall, that's the thing: 5 gadgets could be overpowering, but then you can adjust the gadgets' strengths to compensate.
Ok, so triple nade + HB + cams is OP (and it might be OP with 4 slots, too, mind you). Well, then you can reduce the amount of grenades or cams you can take, and suddenly you're not dealing with 15 grenades + 5 cams + recon anymore. I'd rather that happen than what happens now: 2-3 gadgets simply take a backseat and are never used because other gadgets become way too important.
I'll tell you what Spekk. I'm down with 5 slots if there are limits to amounts of gadgets. I say there should be no set gadget, except for mercs who take gasmask automatically (nice thinking). It might break the whole variety chain, but it will diminish the strength of both sides. I would still like 4 gadgets with limits on amounts, because 5 gadgets just still seems like too much. How would you adjust gadgets strenghts? Won't they have a set strength? Are you referring to amounts?
Quote from: HBW_Hyrage on February 03, 2008, 10:31:08 PM
No offense, but what is the conclusion of this thread? ???
Sound reticule for spy is a new idea. Some dislike it, but some like it. Figure the best way to see is if its beta tested.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 03, 2008, 10:39:27 PM
There is none yet.
Imo spies could have a reticule, but only if it takes 2 slots.
No gadget should take up 2 slots. The reticule won't really be that powerful of a gadget, just stealthier.
In conclusion, the gadget would be something to use for minor recon while on the fly. Meaning you don't have to stop and use the gadget, but you can keep moving (like camo) and it will detect sounds you wouldn't be able to easily hear with your own ears and point you towards them/pinpoint them on your map. Actually, that's not a conclusion. That's more like my analysis of the gadget. I think most people here agree that it needs testing, however.
And messing with all the gadget strengths just to balance it enough where there is a point to having 5 gadgets seems like a shitload of deliberating, testing, discussing, and work. And even after all that discussing/testing we'll probably find that it's not that great of an idea in the long run. (And that it was a waste of time.)
No gadget should take 2 slots. Why exactly do you suggest this?
the main reason why i don't like the sound reticule gadget is that it's a unique feature of the mercs and the larger the difference between these two sides the more interesting it gets.
Good point.
Are any devs really up to nerfing/boosting everything just to squeeze in an extra gadget slot?
This would require way too much testing/discussing/changing. It's ridiculous.
Gawain brought up a very good point. By adding this gagdet, we close the distance between spies and mercs, making this a more average shooter.
Yes I totally agree and anyway... the spies already see the MERCS and if the MERCS were hearing the spies it will break all the hunting elements and hiding would serve to nothing as much for one side and the other.
Umm, there is still a gigantic difference between the two teams. Regardless of if they both can have sound hearing devices. That's like saying that spies and mercs both have visions so that makes them too similar. I see what you are getting at, but it doesn't quite get there.
Quote from: Gawain on February 04, 2008, 12:35:09 AM
the main reason why i don't like the sound reticule gadget is that it's a unique feature of the mercs and the larger the difference between these two sides the more interesting it gets.
That is a good point. Doesn't mean you just scratch the idea.
the only thing is im not really for sure. heart beat is decent but then again i guess the reason i hate it is because everyone whores it so much.
plus me myself Im actually up for a new gadget to throw into the mix, so adding something would definetly put a real signature feel of it being Project Stealth and not another Ubi'fied game.
QuoteUmm, there is still a gigantic difference between the two teams. Regardless of if they both can have sound hearing devices. That's like saying that spies and mercs both have visions so that makes them too similar. I see what you are getting at, but it doesn't quite get there.
That was a bad example. You know that the visions are completely different, while this gadget would be pretty similar to the mercs. Actually when I look at it this way, I think that spies should not have this gadget, simply because I feel that it would be a bad idea to have spies and mercs share abilities.
Mercs and spies do have some things that are similar. This would be similar to the merc's reticule, but not an exact copy. I know what Gawain is trying to say and in some regard I agree with him. But it still isn't a good reason to blow off this idea.
Quotei guess the reason i hate it is because everyone whores it so much.
How can you whore hbs ??
Quote from: neth on February 04, 2008, 11:47:01 AM
Quotei guess the reason i hate it is because everyone whores it so much.
How can you whore hbs ??
well after seefoo showed everyone its power ,which most thought seemed useless ,every walk of european life etc followed in his footsteps / made videos copied his editing techniques and even tried to copy his style of playing =/ to make a long story short.
another reason against a sound reticule: the already existing recon tools are that strong that it's almost impossible to surprise a good careful spy.
If one of the teams are able to hear what the other tema is saying, it will kill totally the Teamwork in PS.
My vote.
That's in CT already <spy bullets>, but it usually doesn't work because teams tend to use Teamspeak instead of the ingame voicechat.
Quote from: HBW_Hyrage on February 04, 2008, 05:37:15 PM
If one of the teams are able to hear what the other tema is saying, it will kill totally the Teamwork in PS.
My vote.
The spy reticule would act like the merc reticule in which it pings the direction of the merc w/in whatever radius its set.
And it would put a blip where the sound came from on your radar. Somewhat like Crysis. And the voicechat hack thing would only work from about 3 meters away. And it wouldn't tell you if you can hack. The recon tools are strong, but they don't allow you to keep moving. In other words you have to stop moving, and either spin in a circle or fire a loud spy bullet which usually can give away your position. With the spy reticule you can keep moving, it never slows you down, or gives away your position. It lets you hear things that you normally wouldn't and points you right towards that sound. That's the beauty of it.
It's a constant 15 meter 360* Hbs.
"And it would put a blip where the sound came from on your radar."
Just because of that.
I was thinking that maybe your radar sized would be increased to help pinpoint sounds at larger distances also.